Maybe I'm just from a different school of thought, but I don't see why it's such a huge deal. Marines pay 25 res for a gl and 10 for a jp. I can easily die twice very quickly to just a skulk in base if they are on their game and that's a 70 res loss right there. If I don't buy any weapons to save res odds are drastically decreased on taking the onos down. That's assuming it is only one onos in there. Add in fades locking down ip, lerks bile bombing EVERYTHING, gorges keeping onos alive, and to top it all of pesky little skulks biting your knees off. It is so frustrating getting stun locked or dying immediately after you spawn I cheered when our comm dropped armories at the door and we commenced slaughtering those little ######s. Maybe I suck at the game, maybe I'm not doing something right, but I still see blocking doorways as a viable tactic.
Few years ago I was in the U.S. Marine Corps and got into combat over in Iraq. We were applauded if we found new and innovative ways (within geneva convention) to ###### over the enemy. To me it seems like just damn good thinking and being quick on your feet. Granted Exo isn't out yet so the balance is no where near final, and I honestly don't care which way it goes. I still love this game and will play it regardless. I just can't understand where all the hate for this comes from. Marines found a way to counter the giant hp tank, time for aliens to find a way to counter armory drop. Heaven forbid you have to coordinate attacks instead of just running in spamming stun.
I'm not trying to insult anyone or start a big to do, just my thoughts on it.
<!--quoteo(post=1924210:date=Apr 11 2012, 05:48 PM:name=BulletSponge51)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BulletSponge51 @ Apr 11 2012, 05:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924210"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe I'm just from a different school of thought, but I don't see why it's such a huge deal. Marines pay 25 res for a gl and 10 for a jp. I can easily die twice very quickly to just a skulk in base if they are on their game and that's a 70 res loss right there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The difference is that there are dozens of things you can do not to die to a random skulk. You can have a teammate without you, you can aim better, you can have an obs spotting the skulk entrance, you can have mines and all that. The list goes on forever.
Meanwhile apart from cyst spread there isn't that much you can do to avoid getting a building slammed right into your face while you're retreating. It just lacks the dynamics that allow aliens to prevent it from happening.
<!--quoteo(post=1924212:date=Apr 11 2012, 12:55 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Apr 11 2012, 12:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924212"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The difference is that there are dozens of things you can do not to die to a random skulk. You can have a teammate without you, you can aim better, you can have an obs spotting the skulk entrance, you can have mines and all that. The list goes on forever.
Meanwhile apart from cyst spread there isn't that much you can do to avoid getting a building slammed right into your face while you're retreating. It just lacks the dynamics that allow aliens to prevent it from happening.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right, and that's all well and good, but sometimes your teammates die too. Sometimes they were waiting in a dark corner and no one saw them. I've been through 100 res easily assaulting a hive before, and that was just one hive. The same could be said for aliens. If there is an armory in the way, have lerks bile bomb it and the onos use its #2 attack on the building. These go down quickly enough in a normal attack with the buildings in normal placement.
<!--quoteo(post=1924219:date=Apr 11 2012, 06:07 PM:name=BulletSponge51)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BulletSponge51 @ Apr 11 2012, 06:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924219"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're right, and that's all well and good, but sometimes your teammates die too. Sometimes they were waiting in a dark corner and no one saw them. I've been through 100 res easily assaulting a hive before, and that was just one hive. The same could be said for aliens. If there is an armory in the way, have lerks bile bomb it and the onos use its #2 attack on the building. These go down quickly enough in a normal attack with the buildings in normal placement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Purchasing weapons and phasing is virtually instant, for the alien team to move across the map and re-evolve takes a long time. By the end-game of NS time is worth significantly more than resources, especially when each hive you lose makes you significantly weaker.
<!--quoteo(post=1924220:date=Apr 11 2012, 01:12 PM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Apr 11 2012, 01:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924220"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Purchasing weapons and phasing is virtually instant, for the alien team to move across the map and re-evolve takes a long time. By the end-game of NS time is worth significantly more than resources, especially when each hive you lose makes you significantly weaker.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, but two skulks can lock down a pg instantly giving us the same dilema, or just break the power, and taking out an armory or arms lab has the same affect on `rines. You're whole base needs to go down to really hurt you. Yeah I know losing crag or shade hurts, but it doesn't make you combat ineffective. Take out our armory and\or arms lab and I may as well just throw my rifle at the the aliens. I really don't mind if in the final build armory dropping is no longer viable, but with how horribly balance is in the aliens favor right now I'd just as soon leave it.
I support ghost structures. As a big, bad Onos, I feared for my life on Tram with all those narrow entrances, and all I could do was Stomp at the Marines in the distance, trying to provoke me into a trap...
<!--quoteo(post=1924221:date=Apr 11 2012, 01:18 PM:name=oldassgamers)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (oldassgamers @ Apr 11 2012, 01:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924221"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I LOVE IT SO MUCH, TO BLOCK ONOS WITH STRUCTORS WHEN THEY'RE RUNNING :)
This tactic was totally fine back when smash did 300 dmg and unbuilt armoury's would die in literally 2 hits. Gorge also had bilebomb which killed armoury's very quickly because it wasnt a dot. Is it still balanced now? I would gander a no - but because of a whole heap of factors such as the former.
All of you have a point when saying that structure blocking poses a heap of issues in <b>ns1</b> - i agree it very much unbalanced the game. However, you guys really need to play <b>ns2</b> a bit more though. Fades arn't very much affected by chokepoints as in ns1 and only really die when greedy or out of energy, which structure blocking capitalizes on. All doorways are also tall enough to still allow lerks, fades, and skulks to still get through and you can't instantly drop CC's but have to drop armoury's which start with lower hp and it may take multiple to block a doorway.
Right now Onos and powernode blocking is a bit lame because UWE has taken away alot of the alien's ability to destroy structures quickly such as onos smash nerf (especially not as a dot), but this is a systematic problem in the current builds anyway. Before, the gorge following the onos would just clear the armoury's with bilebomb super quick, meaning it was useless to structure block against co-ordinated alien teams - it had niche applications but was easily countered.
To simply say that you don't like structure blocking because it doesn't agree with you on an emotional level is the wrong kind of argument...
<!--quoteo(post=1924252:date=Apr 11 2012, 02:41 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Apr 11 2012, 02:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924252"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This tactic was totally fine back when smash did 300 dmg and unbuilt armoury's would die in literally 2 hits. Gorge also had bilebomb which killed armoury's very quickly because it wasnt a dot. Is it still balanced now? I would gander a no - but because of a whole heap of factors such as the former.
All of you have a point when saying that structure blocking poses a heap of issues in <b>ns1</b> - i agree it very much unbalanced the game. However, you guys really need to play <b>ns2</b> a bit more though. Fades arn't very much affected by chokepoints as in ns1 and only really die when greedy or out of energy, which structure blocking capitalizes on. All doorways are also tall enough to still allow lerks, fades, and skulks to still get through and you can't instantly drop CC's to block but have to drop armoury's which start with really low hp and it may take multiple to block a doorway.
Right now Onos and powernode blocking is a bit lame because UWE has taken away alot of the alien's ability to destroy structures quickly (especially not as a dot), but this is a systematic problem in the current builds anyway. Before, the gorge following the onos would just clear the armoury's with bilebomb super quick, meaning it was useless to structure block against co-ordinated alien teams - it had niche applications but really was easily countered.
To simply say that you don't like structure blocking because it doesn't agree with you on an emotional level is the wrong kind of argument...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think its completely valid. My favorite race to play is aliens for sure, and yes it hurts when this happens, but you have to remember that they are sacrificing TRES in order to punish overextended Onos. Nothing wrong with it, especially since currently Marines have no super effective way to deal with Onos spam.
<!--quoteo(post=1924157:date=Apr 11 2012, 07:52 AM:name=Omega_K2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omega_K2 @ Apr 11 2012, 07:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924157"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It should not be removed.
- It's a valid tactic at the cost of TRES (armories, unless built, will not sell for full res) <b>- Can easily countered by putting cysts all way to the marine base, since marines can't drop buildings on infestation</b> - Armories don't drop at full health and go down quite easily
If the problem is that you can't take down a marine base, that is not a problem with structures blocking entraces more because aliens don't have effective means to destroy buildings end game, but that was pointed out in other threads already.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. It shouldn't be "fixed" or removed, creativity has already been nerfed enough as it is with the introduction of power nodes and tying the command chair to specific points on the map, all it does is make each match more and more predictable with very little room for the players to do what they want. I say we need MORE creative options like this not less.
I'd rather just have the lifeforms properly balanced instead of arguing for reasons to create instantly appearing walls because "OMG Onos OP we need this for balance." It doesn't add anything to the game except a obtuse tactic that doesn't make sense from the FPS perspective. And you can't say it punishes over extended onos when Aliens can have a forward base on each side and have to send in their siege unit to end the game. The onos is exactly where he is suppose to be for his role in the game and he is punished for it. You're misrepresenting the situation.
If the ability to close off pathways is so important to you as a game mechanic why are you defending that it happen instantly so vehemently? I think you just don't want to see your easy cheese kills disappear. There are plenty of alternatives that allow your blocking but without being clearly an exploit of the way buildings are dropped.
**The you I refer to is anyone who feels that armory blocking is a vital mechanic to the NS2 experience.
Please explain why such a "tactic" is cheap? "UHhhhh - CAUSE I DIED" -LOL- just kidding. In all fairness, i think a lot of these comments are coming from boths sides without regard at all to general consideration of the balance of the teams, but rather to personal experience and encounter. You have to understand how it is a balancing factor for some of the strengths of the Alien side. If you've rushed into a marine base as an onos, by yourself or with only a few companions, it doesnt bother me at all that you would have been blocked. That just a bad personal choice. Armory blocking rarely happens outside of marine spawns, ( cause the onos and his buddies can just kill the marines and cant continually respawn in that enclosed area. This has to come under consideration that blocking an onos usually costs ALOT of res. To completely seal off an area with to exits (think Operations, crushing,etc) this usually has to take 4 Armories. In other areas like cave and central drilling that is just impossible. This amount of res is a strategic risk). During the first half of the game, marines just wont do this, because its just a bad investment. And all that res can be lost if aliens are cordinated in destroying structures. HAVE you NEVER seen a pack of HIGHLY upgrade marines get mowed down by ###### load of hydras and one skulk or lerk. No one complains there, when the marines lose all that res. But When an onos its definitely "CHEAP". Counterargument: An Onos has no effective measure for dealing with armory blocks! Thats correct if you already happened to be blocked, but what you could of have done was be smart and try to minimize you risk of getting that situation in the first place, by staying away from potential situations of bein blocked OR be with strong teammates during your rush, so that it wouldnt be a problem anyway if you were blocked, cause you cant still kill everbody. If mis-used this can be a huge res drain for marines, which can turn out to be a positive factor for aliens.
But really this tactic is usually just used when marines have a superfluous amount of res (THIS IS USUALLY REALLY SECOND HALF OF THE GAME, when THE OUTCOME HAS REALLY BEEN ALREADY DECIDED). And this can manifest itself in a number of ways that can be PERCEiVED as "CHEAP" i.e. ARC SPAM, TURRETS EVERYWHERE, ARMORY BLOCK ,etc etc etc etc. If you happen to be on the losing team in a losing game, and the marines has the superabundent amount of res to TROLL you, dont consider it "cheap", considered it that the game was lost due to earlier factors, such as, not holding res, not preventing marines from holding res, etc etc etc.
So this tactic is really not as incosequential as the word "CHEAP" would have made it. Its has its limits and cautions. And this is nothing that the aliens if they are working together cannot overcome.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And who cares what it was like in NS1? NS1 was only hardcore players, anyway. Does UWE really want such a small community/playerbase for NS2?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What a silly statement. Quite aside from this, what makes you think the frustration of being blocked by unbuilt buildings is going to encourage people to swarm to NS2 rather than leave in rage?
If it is going to stay in the game for whatever reason, may as well embrace it and put a new wall structure in the game so it's res/hp/build rate/etc. can be tweaked separately from armory.
<!--quoteo(post=1924171:date=Apr 11 2012, 11:32 AM:name=Wolpertinger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wolpertinger @ Apr 11 2012, 11:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924171"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh, please do write more responses multiple times, with fat capital letters, which make your opinion so much more valueable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Meh. It's still infinitely more valuable than any comments defending the legitimacy of using an exploit as a 'valid tactic'.
<!--quoteo(post=1924173:date=Apr 11 2012, 11:40 AM:name=Industry)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Industry @ Apr 11 2012, 11:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924173"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you are confusing a valid tactic with a cheese tactic. Cheese is actually what you are looking for here. Structure blocking is a tactic used in a lot of RTS games but the question is whether having structure blocking in this game adds to balance. <b>In my opinion of the latest builds</b> it does add to balance only in that hive 1 and even hive 2 onos are RIDICULOUS and armory costs do require TRes. As soon as the onos is properly balanced I will <u>fullheartedly</u> endorse the revival of the NS1 style ghost structures. Losing a 75 res lifeform is no fun then again neither is being on the other side of the onos stun train that can easily annihilate loads of marines in a short time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I understand that it's used in RTS's. Just because it's done in Starcraft doesn't mean it should be done here. I believe the mix of the FPS element makes it inappropriate. Whereas in Starcraft the units are solely controlled by the orders given by the 'commander' and there is no person behind the zerglings or marines or whatever to determine their actions, the fate of ns2 players is determined by the player that is controlling them and their own ability to stay alive and defend themselves. The mark of a good alien player when they're fade or onos is when attacking to know when to retreat whilst doing as much damage as possible. A skilled player who otherwise would not have died shouldn't be penalized by the commander dropping a structure out of nowhere. The idea that a commander can 'summon' solid objects out of nowhere for the purpose of blocking is immersion breaking and destroys game balance.
I understand a lot of people like the strategy component of structure blocking. If the developers really want to include it as a legitimate tactic, implement something like blast doors around spawn areas. That way it's not immersion-breaking and actually makes sense. And rather than just being an exploit, it's something it's obvious the developers want allowed. If there's a command center built in any of the main hive/spawn locations, have the ability to close the blast doors for a certain amount of energy (like beacon). Onoses should be able to smash through blast doors (eg. the teaser trailer) when they're closed with a few hits and disable them completely. There's a simple solution if stucture blocking is really necessary... I still think it would break the balance of the game though (a well guarded marine base is already hard enough to take out), but at least it would be a feature and not an exploit.
I do agree however that onos is OP at the moment (at least early-game/1st-hive onos) and needs to be balanced.
<!--quoteo(post=1924435:date=Apr 11 2012, 10:06 PM:name=d0ped0g)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d0ped0g @ Apr 11 2012, 10:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924435"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the developers really want to include it as a legitimate tactic, implement something like blast doors around spawn areas. That way it's not immersion-breaking and actually makes sense. And rather than just being an exploit, it's something it's obvious the developers want allowed. If there's a command center built in any of the main hive/spawn locations, have the ability to close the blast doors for a certain amount of energy (like beacon). Onoses should be able to smash through blast doors (eg. the teaser trailer) when they're closed with a few hits and disable them completely. There's a simple solution if stucture blocking is really necessary... I still think it would break the balance of the game though (a well guarded marine base is already hard enough to take out), but at least it would be a feature and not an exploit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1924419:date=Apr 11 2012, 06:26 PM:name=hapro)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hapro @ Apr 11 2012, 06:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924419"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it is going to stay in the game for whatever reason, may as well embrace it and put a new wall structure in the game so it's res/hp/build rate/etc. can be tweaked separately from armory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know I actually really like this idea, you could do a lot of creative things with it, like put these barriers around an RT to protect it from an onos, but skulks can still get at it. to compensate, give onoses more damage back to smash?
<!--quoteo(post=1924212:date=Apr 11 2012, 12:55 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Apr 11 2012, 12:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924212"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->there isn't that much you can do to avoid getting a building slammed right into your face while you're retreating<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that's really the main thing. If a good player was able to avoid dying to it then it would be fine.. However, it doesn't matter how skilled you are, sometimes there can be absolutely no defending against it. Even if the marines are aiming like stormtroopers, if an onos is stranded in base with them (especially with shotguns), that onos is going to die. He could be the best player on the server and still have no way to defend himself against it. That's why it's cheap. It requires no skill, and completely negates the skill of the person it is used against.
<!--quoteo(post=1924435:date=Apr 11 2012, 09:06 PM:name=d0ped0g)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d0ped0g @ Apr 11 2012, 09:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924435"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the developers really want to include it as a legitimate tactic, implement something like blast doors around spawn areas. That way it's not immersion-breaking and actually makes sense. And rather than just being an exploit, it's something it's obvious the developers want allowed. If there's a command center built in any of the main hive/spawn locations, have the ability to close the blast doors for a certain amount of energy (like beacon). Onoses should be able to smash through blast doors (eg. the teaser trailer) when they're closed with a few hits and disable them completely. There's a simple solution if stucture blocking is really necessary... I still think it would break the balance of the game though (a well guarded marine base is already hard enough to take out), but at least it would be a feature and not an exploit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. I absolutely love the idea of blast doors. I love the point about it not breaking the immersion either. This is my vote for a solution.
<!--quoteo(post=1924459:date=Apr 12 2012, 01:59 PM:name=d0ped0g)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d0ped0g @ Apr 12 2012, 01:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924459"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a good player was able to avoid dying to it then it would be fine.. However, it doesn't matter how skilled you are, sometimes there can be absolutely no defending against it. Even if the marines are aiming like stormtroopers, if an onos is stranded in base with them (especially with shotguns), that onos is going to die. He could be the best player on the server and still have no way to defend himself against it. That's why it's cheap. It requires no skill, and completely negates the skill of the person it is used against.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely i agree, if there is no chance of defending against it at all it is super cheap and very much should be removed from the game. <b>However, this isn't entirely the case in reality.</b> It certainly wasn't the case when people starting catching onto instant structure blocking a few many builds back when Onos had high smash damage and gorge had bilebomb. Currently Onos smash damage is abyssmal which contributes to not being able to 'defend'. It's obvious it will see a buff and untill UWE settles on a number we literally cannot say whether or not instant structure blocking is cheap as you define it.
In regard to the other lifeforms, it really is very easy to avoid dying from structure blocking... Skulks can climb up buildings (not just walls), lerks can simply fly over them, fades blink over them. I'm not sure what else to say. Marines can't shoot through armoury's - chewing them from the other side and thats 10 tres the comm will never see again.
Btw, structure blocking does require skill especially when your trying to plant them in lerk faces. Don't confuse instant structure block with powernode blocking etc.
Perhaps a good way to think about onos structure blocking is this. As an Onos you know you can only stay in combat for a certain ammount of time before you need to bail. A commander who structure blocks is paying (and at a high cost) to reduce this ammount of time by f(x) (a function of balance factors such as smash dmg/armoury hp).
I never see an onos get blocked and then turn around, stomp the marines, and try to exit the room using the other doorway, they always try and kill the building blocking them and die long before they take it down
<!--quoteo(post=1924519:date=Apr 12 2012, 01:51 AM:name=paradoxum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (paradoxum @ Apr 12 2012, 01:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924519"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I never see an onos get blocked and then turn around, stomp the marines, and try to exit the room using the other doorway, they always try and kill the building blocking them and die long before they take it down<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Usually because there's so many other buildings/Marines in the way, and because there's no reason to believe their Com won't just block that one when you go for it.
Better to take your chances trying to get through an armory as quickly as possible then run all the way across the room and <i>then</i> have to start bashing through an armory.
<!--quoteo(post=1924459:date=Apr 11 2012, 09:59 PM:name=d0ped0g)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d0ped0g @ Apr 11 2012, 09:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924459"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that's really the main thing. If a good player was able to avoid dying to it then it would be fine.. However, it doesn't matter how skilled you are, sometimes there can be absolutely no defending against it. Even if the marines are aiming like stormtroopers, if an onos is stranded in base with them (especially with shotguns), that onos is going to die. He could be the best player on the server and still have no way to defend himself against it. That's why it's cheap. It requires no skill, and completely negates the skill of the person it is used against.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see this as a different situation from being stun locked by an onos. Especially in any tight hallway which is a large portion of the maps, mineshaft excluded. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but to my knowledge you can't jump over the onos smash, I don't even think jumping on a rail saves you. It's just narcolepsy time for the marine.
<!--quoteo(post=1924638:date=Apr 12 2012, 08:54 AM:name=BulletSponge51)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BulletSponge51 @ Apr 12 2012, 08:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924638"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see this as a different situation from being stun locked by an onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Given that Onos' stuns are some of the most hated features in the game, I'd say this comparison doesn't help MagicBuildingBlocking.
<!--quoteo(post=1924668:date=Apr 12 2012, 12:16 PM:name=Gorge Costanza)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gorge Costanza @ Apr 12 2012, 12:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Given that Onos' stuns are some of the most hated features in the game, I'd say this comparison doesn't help MagicBuildingBlocking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm ok with that. More just making the point that MagicBuildBlocking, henceforth referred to as MBB, isn't the only thing that leaves a player defenseless. If anything MBB actually costs the team something whereas onos stun just costs the little guy some energy. That regenerates. Rapidly. I've got my fingers crossed for something like blast doors, but I'll keep playing regardless of what they do. Been waiting for this game for to damn long.
Comments
Few years ago I was in the U.S. Marine Corps and got into combat over in Iraq. We were applauded if we found new and innovative ways (within geneva convention) to ###### over the enemy. To me it seems like just damn good thinking and being quick on your feet. Granted Exo isn't out yet so the balance is no where near final, and I honestly don't care which way it goes. I still love this game and will play it regardless. I just can't understand where all the hate for this comes from. Marines found a way to counter the giant hp tank, time for aliens to find a way to counter armory drop. Heaven forbid you have to coordinate attacks instead of just running in spamming stun.
I'm not trying to insult anyone or start a big to do, just my thoughts on it.
The difference is that there are dozens of things you can do not to die to a random skulk. You can have a teammate without you, you can aim better, you can have an obs spotting the skulk entrance, you can have mines and all that. The list goes on forever.
Meanwhile apart from cyst spread there isn't that much you can do to avoid getting a building slammed right into your face while you're retreating. It just lacks the dynamics that allow aliens to prevent it from happening.
Meanwhile apart from cyst spread there isn't that much you can do to avoid getting a building slammed right into your face while you're retreating. It just lacks the dynamics that allow aliens to prevent it from happening.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right, and that's all well and good, but sometimes your teammates die too. Sometimes they were waiting in a dark corner and no one saw them. I've been through 100 res easily assaulting a hive before, and that was just one hive. The same could be said for aliens. If there is an armory in the way, have lerks bile bomb it and the onos use its #2 attack on the building. These go down quickly enough in a normal attack with the buildings in normal placement.
Purchasing weapons and phasing is virtually instant, for the alien team to move across the map and re-evolve takes a long time. By the end-game of NS time is worth significantly more than resources, especially when each hive you lose makes you significantly weaker.
Muhahaha Muhaha
Yeah, but two skulks can lock down a pg instantly giving us the same dilema, or just break the power, and taking out an armory or arms lab has the same affect on `rines. You're whole base needs to go down to really hurt you. Yeah I know losing crag or shade hurts, but it doesn't make you combat ineffective. Take out our armory and\or arms lab and I may as well just throw my rifle at the the aliens. I really don't mind if in the final build armory dropping is no longer viable, but with how horribly balance is in the aliens favor right now I'd just as soon leave it.
Muhahaha Muhaha<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ha ha ha I love you.
All of you have a point when saying that structure blocking poses a heap of issues in <b>ns1</b> - i agree it very much unbalanced the game. However, you guys really need to play <b>ns2</b> a bit more though. Fades arn't very much affected by chokepoints as in ns1 and only really die when greedy or out of energy, which structure blocking capitalizes on. All doorways are also tall enough to still allow lerks, fades, and skulks to still get through and you can't instantly drop CC's but have to drop armoury's which start with lower hp and it may take multiple to block a doorway.
Right now Onos and powernode blocking is a bit lame because UWE has taken away alot of the alien's ability to destroy structures quickly such as onos smash nerf (especially not as a dot), but this is a systematic problem in the current builds anyway. Before, the gorge following the onos would just clear the armoury's with bilebomb super quick, meaning it was useless to structure block against co-ordinated alien teams - it had niche applications but was easily countered.
To simply say that you don't like structure blocking because it doesn't agree with you on an emotional level is the wrong kind of argument...
All of you have a point when saying that structure blocking poses a heap of issues in <b>ns1</b> - i agree it very much unbalanced the game. However, you guys really need to play <b>ns2</b> a bit more though. Fades arn't very much affected by chokepoints as in ns1 and only really die when greedy or out of energy, which structure blocking capitalizes on. All doorways are also tall enough to still allow lerks, fades, and skulks to still get through and you can't instantly drop CC's to block but have to drop armoury's which start with really low hp and it may take multiple to block a doorway.
Right now Onos and powernode blocking is a bit lame because UWE has taken away alot of the alien's ability to destroy structures quickly (especially not as a dot), but this is a systematic problem in the current builds anyway. Before, the gorge following the onos would just clear the armoury's with bilebomb super quick, meaning it was useless to structure block against co-ordinated alien teams - it had niche applications but really was easily countered.
To simply say that you don't like structure blocking because it doesn't agree with you on an emotional level is the wrong kind of argument...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you 100%
I'm open to ghost buildings after the onos has been properly balanced for 1 and 2 hive play.
- It's a valid tactic at the cost of TRES (armories, unless built, will not sell for full res)
<b>- Can easily countered by putting cysts all way to the marine base, since marines can't drop buildings on infestation</b>
- Armories don't drop at full health and go down quite easily
If the problem is that you can't take down a marine base, that is not a problem with structures blocking entraces more because aliens don't have effective means to destroy buildings end game, but that was pointed out in other threads already.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. It shouldn't be "fixed" or removed, creativity has already been nerfed enough as it is with the introduction of power nodes and tying the command chair to specific points on the map, all it does is make each match more and more predictable with very little room for the players to do what they want. I say we need MORE creative options like this not less.
If the ability to close off pathways is so important to you as a game mechanic why are you defending that it happen instantly so vehemently? I think you just don't want to see your easy cheese kills disappear. There are plenty of alternatives that allow your blocking but without being clearly an exploit of the way buildings are dropped.
**The you I refer to is anyone who feels that armory blocking is a vital mechanic to the NS2 experience.
In all fairness, i think a lot of these comments are coming from boths sides without regard at all to general consideration of the balance of the teams, but rather to personal experience and encounter. You have to understand how it is a balancing factor for some of the strengths of the Alien side.
If you've rushed into a marine base as an onos, by yourself or with only a few companions, it doesnt bother me at all that you would have been blocked. That just a bad personal choice. Armory blocking rarely happens outside of marine spawns, ( cause the onos and his buddies can just kill the marines and cant continually respawn in that enclosed area.
This has to come under consideration that blocking an onos usually costs ALOT of res. To completely seal off an area with to exits (think Operations, crushing,etc) this usually has to take 4 Armories. In other areas like cave and central drilling that is just impossible. This amount of res is a strategic risk). During the first half of the game, marines just wont do this, because its just a bad investment. And all that res can be lost if aliens are cordinated in destroying structures. HAVE you NEVER seen a pack of HIGHLY upgrade marines get mowed down by ###### load of hydras and one skulk or lerk. No one complains there, when the marines lose all that res. But When an onos its definitely "CHEAP". Counterargument: An Onos has no effective measure for dealing with armory blocks! Thats correct if you already happened to be blocked, but what you could of have done was be smart and try to minimize you risk of getting that situation in the first place, by staying away from potential situations of bein blocked OR be with strong teammates during your rush, so that it wouldnt be a problem anyway if you were blocked, cause you cant still kill everbody.
If mis-used this can be a huge res drain for marines, which can turn out to be a positive factor for aliens.
But really this tactic is usually just used when marines have a superfluous amount of res (THIS IS USUALLY REALLY SECOND HALF OF THE GAME, when THE OUTCOME HAS REALLY BEEN ALREADY DECIDED). And this can manifest itself in a number of ways that can be PERCEiVED as "CHEAP" i.e. ARC SPAM, TURRETS EVERYWHERE, ARMORY BLOCK ,etc etc etc etc. If you happen to be on the losing team in a losing game, and the marines has the superabundent amount of res to TROLL you, dont consider it "cheap", considered it that the game was lost due to earlier factors, such as, not holding res, not preventing marines from holding res, etc etc etc.
So this tactic is really not as incosequential as the word "CHEAP" would have made it. Its has its limits and cautions. And this is nothing that the aliens if they are working together cannot overcome.
What a silly statement. Quite aside from this, what makes you think the frustration of being blocked by unbuilt buildings is going to encourage people to swarm to NS2 rather than leave in rage?
Meh. It's still infinitely more valuable than any comments defending the legitimacy of using an exploit as a 'valid tactic'.
Yeah I understand that it's used in RTS's. Just because it's done in Starcraft doesn't mean it should be done here. I believe the mix of the FPS element makes it inappropriate. Whereas in Starcraft the units are solely controlled by the orders given by the 'commander' and there is no person behind the zerglings or marines or whatever to determine their actions, the fate of ns2 players is determined by the player that is controlling them and their own ability to stay alive and defend themselves. The mark of a good alien player when they're fade or onos is when attacking to know when to retreat whilst doing as much damage as possible. A skilled player who otherwise would not have died shouldn't be penalized by the commander dropping a structure out of nowhere. The idea that a commander can 'summon' solid objects out of nowhere for the purpose of blocking is immersion breaking and destroys game balance.
I understand a lot of people like the strategy component of structure blocking. If the developers really want to include it as a legitimate tactic, implement something like blast doors around spawn areas. That way it's not immersion-breaking and actually makes sense. And rather than just being an exploit, it's something it's obvious the developers want allowed. If there's a command center built in any of the main hive/spawn locations, have the ability to close the blast doors for a certain amount of energy (like beacon). Onoses should be able to smash through blast doors (eg. the teaser trailer) when they're closed with a few hits and disable them completely. There's a simple solution if stucture blocking is really necessary... I still think it would break the balance of the game though (a well guarded marine base is already hard enough to take out), but at least it would be a feature and not an exploit.
I do agree however that onos is OP at the moment (at least early-game/1st-hive onos) and needs to be balanced.
+1
You know I actually really like this idea, you could do a lot of creative things with it, like put these barriers around an RT to protect it from an onos, but skulks can still get at it. to compensate, give onoses more damage back to smash?
I think that's really the main thing. If a good player was able to avoid dying to it then it would be fine.. However, it doesn't matter how skilled you are, sometimes there can be absolutely no defending against it. Even if the marines are aiming like stormtroopers, if an onos is stranded in base with them (especially with shotguns), that onos is going to die. He could be the best player on the server and still have no way to defend himself against it. That's why it's cheap. It requires no skill, and completely negates the skill of the person it is used against.
Yes. I absolutely love the idea of blast doors. I love the point about it not breaking the immersion either. This is my vote for a solution.
Absolutely i agree, if there is no chance of defending against it at all it is super cheap and very much should be removed from the game. <b>However, this isn't entirely the case in reality.</b> It certainly wasn't the case when people starting catching onto instant structure blocking a few many builds back when Onos had high smash damage and gorge had bilebomb. Currently Onos smash damage is abyssmal which contributes to not being able to 'defend'. It's obvious it will see a buff and untill UWE settles on a number we literally cannot say whether or not instant structure blocking is cheap as you define it.
In regard to the other lifeforms, it really is very easy to avoid dying from structure blocking... Skulks can climb up buildings (not just walls), lerks can simply fly over them, fades blink over them. I'm not sure what else to say. Marines can't shoot through armoury's - chewing them from the other side and thats 10 tres the comm will never see again.
Btw, structure blocking does require skill especially when your trying to plant them in lerk faces. Don't confuse instant structure block with powernode blocking etc.
Perhaps a good way to think about onos structure blocking is this. As an Onos you know you can only stay in combat for a certain ammount of time before you need to bail. A commander who structure blocks is paying (and at a high cost) to reduce this ammount of time by f(x) (a function of balance factors such as smash dmg/armoury hp).
Usually because there's so many other buildings/Marines in the way, and because there's no reason to believe their Com won't just block that one when you go for it.
Better to take your chances trying to get through an armory as quickly as possible then run all the way across the room and <i>then</i> have to start bashing through an armory.
I don't see this as a different situation from being stun locked by an onos. Especially in any tight hallway which is a large portion of the maps, mineshaft excluded. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but to my knowledge you can't jump over the onos smash, I don't even think jumping on a rail saves you. It's just narcolepsy time for the marine.
Given that Onos' stuns are some of the most hated features in the game, I'd say this comparison doesn't help MagicBuildingBlocking.
I'm ok with that. More just making the point that MagicBuildBlocking, henceforth referred to as MBB, isn't the only thing that leaves a player defenseless. If anything MBB actually costs the team something whereas onos stun just costs the little guy some energy. That regenerates. Rapidly. I've got my fingers crossed for something like blast doors, but I'll keep playing regardless of what they do. Been waiting for this game for to damn long.