matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
edited April 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1925316:date=Apr 14 2012, 02:49 PM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Apr 14 2012, 02:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925316"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fade power attack has a longer reach than the actual model's animation shows. I've seen power attack a marine when the marine was about 2 feet away from the claws.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, the range is about one meter extra compared to the swipe - OTOH, there is a hefty delay and a no-movement penalty on it, so it needs that extra range to be at all useful. Considering that you swipe twice in less time than you stab once, its only useful once marines have armor 2. And considering that armor 3 marines are left with 10 health after a stab ... *shrug*. UWE has also mentioned that the Stab attack is to be replaced with something more useful later, anyhow...
Regarding ARCs maybe they should require a marine to manually reload them after each blast. That way they would at least need local marine dominance to be effective rather than being a fire and forget weapon.
<!--quoteo(post=1925261:date=Apr 14 2012, 08:18 AM:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel @ Apr 14 2012, 08:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925261"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really like the new death effects but I think there should be a longer delay before they kick in to allow the ragdolls to settle. The alien death effect could also be slowed down a bit to give it a more organic feel.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not really the timing of when the death FX kick in, its that the ragdolls disappear too fast (so if the FX appear later you wouldn't see them at all). We were going to try to increase the length of time the ragdolls stay around right before PAX, but looking into it, it ended up being too complicated and risky of a change to make right before PAX, but we'll be looking into this again sometime soon.
Yea, don't know what is is but the moment a lot of buildings get placed performance just falls rock bottom. Early game is relatively smooth, it only gets worse from then on.
<!--quoteo(post=1925410:date=Apr 14 2012, 08:03 PM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Apr 14 2012, 08:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925410"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This build gives me the biggest performance hits in ages.
In one round, in a room packed with players and structures, the fps went down to 15! Got a 4ghz processor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Aye true, same. The lowest I've seen it go was 6 FPS during one of those mineshaft-stalemates with a packed marine-base. 4GHz i7. At which point the mouse-lag really sets in and you might as well call it quits cause you're not gonna hit the side of a barn.
<!--quoteo(post=1925019:date=Apr 13 2012, 06:35 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 13 2012, 06:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925019"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yea onos is still retarded, I hope they actually come up with a proper fix for him, i.e one that makes him weaker at 1 (and even 2) hive and stronger lategame, the current implementation is just head over heels retarded and makes me want to stop playing NS all together. It's really not that hard to address.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't believe the problem here is the Onos per se, but the alien meta-game. This is being addressed in a big way in Build 205, which you should get early this coming week. The problem has to do with aliens being to both simultaneously attack non-stop and expand, whereas the marines need to build structures and be with their structures to erect them.
<!--quoteo(post=1925480:date=Apr 14 2012, 08:44 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Apr 14 2012, 08:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925480"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't believe the problem here is the Onos per se, but the alien meta-game. This is being addressed in a big way in Build 205, which you should get early this coming week. The problem has to do with aliens being to both simultaneously attack non-stop and expand, whereas the marines need to build structures and be with their structures to erect them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1925480:date=Apr 14 2012, 07:44 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Apr 14 2012, 07:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925480"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't believe the problem here is the Onos per se, but the alien meta-game. This is being addressed in a big way in Build 205, which you should get early this coming week. The problem has to do with aliens being to both simultaneously attack non-stop and expand, whereas the marines need to build structures and be with their structures to erect them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like 205 is going to be a beastly update! Cannot wait to give it a go!
<!--quoteo(post=1925480:date=Apr 14 2012, 08:44 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Apr 14 2012, 08:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925480"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't believe the problem here is the Onos per se, but the alien meta-game. This is being addressed in a big way in Build 205, which you should get early this coming week. The problem has to do with aliens being to both simultaneously attack non-stop and expand, whereas the marines need to build structures and be with their structures to erect them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so my question is, if you require gorges to speed up building, how does that play into the balance issue? aliens are already down 1 player to khamm position, now need at least 1 gorge... so 4 skulks vs 5 marines? doesn't sound very balanced
my guess is it'll be balanced in a way where if you want the current alien expansion rate, you'll need a fatty. otherwise, it'll be relatively similar to the expansion rate marines have.
<!--quoteo(post=1925500:date=Apr 14 2012, 09:54 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Apr 14 2012, 09:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925500"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so my question is, if you require gorges to speed up building, how does that play into the balance issue? aliens are already down 1 player to khamm position, now need at least 1 gorge... so 4 skulks vs 5 marines? doesn't sound very balanced<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Luckily for us, gorges can help in combat too by healing their teammates
(Healspray/bellyslide buff in b206, you heard it here first)
unless the gorge is helping expand where the front line is that won't be a variable in the outcome of the fight. and even in the middle of combat he can only help so much.. equally skilled players, I'd place my money on the 5 marines (especially with commander support)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so my question is, if you require gorges to speed up building, how does that play into the balance issue? aliens are already down 1 player to khamm position, now need at least 1 gorge... so 4 skulks vs 5 marines? doesn't sound very balanced<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is exactly how it was in NS 1, and yes don't forget gorges aren't entirely useless in combat either (not to mention that with the p.res cost removal or lowering of gorge buildings they are going to be a lot more viable for protecting frontlines with hydras, etc). Saying 4 skulks versus 5 marines isn't balanced is like saying 5 onos vs 5 marines is balanced. Just wrong. I provided some more thoughts on this in this thread: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/forums/index.php?showtopic=117524" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/forums/ind...howtopic=117524</a>
It's not just going to be this change obviously, charlie said there'd be a whole bunch of things that are changing with this objective in mind, but this one is already pretty huge. You'd be quite surprised to see how big the impact of one less skulk is going to be. It would all depend on how fast the khamm can build without gorges of course, i.e it needs to be significant enough to warrant the extra gorge, else one less skulk is going to be a pointless sacrifice.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why do you think that a gorge who is building a res node is away from frontlines, yet the marines building res nodes are at the frontlines?
is it because the 'frontline' at the start of the game happens to usually be around a marine res node point instead of alien?
maybe thats one part of the 'alien meta-game' we're trying to address here<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This has to do with the alien's significant advantage in terms of mobility at the start of the game, and I generally find that it shifts when marines get phasegates, or jetpacks. I.e marines just need to be given a bigger fighting chance early, by slowing alien expansion/teching just long enough for them to get some crucial tech up that will allow them to take the upperhand from mid game onward.
A second reason, aside from mobility, is that 4 good skulks can generally take out 4 good marines, i.e the asymmetric balance, since they have that mobility, the element of surprise and (when defending) hive sight to give them the edge. This allows aliens to continiously push marines further back, as they end up winning more head-on engagements early on. (If this wasn't the case, marines would be able to hold on longer on alien turf, while reinforcements keep flowing to this frontline) Usually one skulk can take out one marine before he dies, if he's playing it clever at least. This is where one less skulk will also come in and make a difference, not to mention the fact that it may in fact make the average skulk player play smarter, knowing that they have a numerical disadvantage and have to use their abilities to the fullest extense (rather than just rushing into marines head on with equal numbers like is often seen currently) i.e it could even slow down gameplay as skulks adapt their offensive strategy. (just rushing head on into marines is going to be less effective when you're 4 vs 5, where as ambushing a group of marines is going to be just as devastating)
Both these alien advantages are even more apparent when aliens spawn right outside a marine base, i.e they have the mobility and equal numbers to continuously pressure marines and pretty much lock them into their spawn at the start of the game.
I haven't read through all theese pages but wanted to share my feelings of the new death effects and font/style of splash messages. I realize it is essential to appeal to younger E-sport fanatics, and I do enjoy watching NS2HD videos. I know it is needed for the community as a way to make it grow, but to me it is ruining the game immersion. The E-sport modding that is being done are removing the eerie doomy feel to the game. Like the death effects that occur almost instantly after death. I'd much rather see bloody corpses lying around creating a goory moody environment after a bloody skirmish for 20-30 secs.
Maybe we need a E-sport mode and Immersion mode? =)
Comments
Yea, the range is about one meter extra compared to the swipe - OTOH, there is a hefty delay and a no-movement penalty on it, so it needs that extra range to be at all useful. Considering that you swipe twice in less time than you stab once, its only useful once marines have armor 2. And considering that armor 3 marines are left with 10 health after a stab ... *shrug*. UWE has also mentioned that the Stab attack is to be replaced with something more useful later, anyhow...
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nM2HOfDfCJQ"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nM2HOfDfCJQ" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
It's not really the timing of when the death FX kick in, its that the ragdolls disappear too fast (so if the FX appear later you wouldn't see them at all). We were going to try to increase the length of time the ragdolls stay around right before PAX, but looking into it, it ended up being too complicated and risky of a change to make right before PAX, but we'll be looking into this again sometime soon.
--Cory
In one round, in a room packed with players and structures, the fps went down to 15! Got a 4ghz processor.
In one round, in a room packed with players and structures, the fps went down to 15! Got a 4ghz processor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aye true, same. The lowest I've seen it go was 6 FPS during one of those mineshaft-stalemates with a packed marine-base. 4GHz i7. At which point the mouse-lag really sets in and you might as well call it quits cause you're not gonna hit the side of a barn.
I don't believe the problem here is the Onos per se, but the alien meta-game. This is being addressed in a big way in Build 205, which you should get early this coming week. The problem has to do with aliens being to both simultaneously attack non-stop and expand, whereas the marines need to build structures and be with their structures to erect them.
bringing back gorge building? :3 lol jk
Sounds like 205 is going to be a beastly update! Cannot wait to give it a go!
AHA! I'm excited for 205 already. Good stuff.
your guess is closer than you think
Luckily for us, gorges can help in combat too by healing their teammates
(Healspray/bellyslide buff in b206, you heard it here first)
is it because the 'frontline' at the start of the game happens to usually be around a marine res node point instead of alien?
maybe thats one part of the 'alien meta-game' we're trying to address here
This is exactly how it was in NS 1, and yes don't forget gorges aren't entirely useless in combat either (not to mention that with the p.res cost removal or lowering of gorge buildings they are going to be a lot more viable for protecting frontlines with hydras, etc). Saying 4 skulks versus 5 marines isn't balanced is like saying 5 onos vs 5 marines is balanced. Just wrong. I provided some more thoughts on this in this thread: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/forums/index.php?showtopic=117524" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/forums/ind...howtopic=117524</a>
It's not just going to be this change obviously, charlie said there'd be a whole bunch of things that are changing with this objective in mind, but this one is already pretty huge. You'd be quite surprised to see how big the impact of one less skulk is going to be. It would all depend on how fast the khamm can build without gorges of course, i.e it needs to be significant enough to warrant the extra gorge, else one less skulk is going to be a pointless sacrifice.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why do you think that a gorge who is building a res node is away from frontlines, yet the marines building res nodes are at the frontlines?
is it because the 'frontline' at the start of the game happens to usually be around a marine res node point instead of alien?
maybe thats one part of the 'alien meta-game' we're trying to address here<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This has to do with the alien's significant advantage in terms of mobility at the start of the game, and I generally find that it shifts when marines get phasegates, or jetpacks. I.e marines just need to be given a bigger fighting chance early, by slowing alien expansion/teching just long enough for them to get some crucial tech up that will allow them to take the upperhand from mid game onward.
A second reason, aside from mobility, is that 4 good skulks can generally take out 4 good marines, i.e the asymmetric balance, since they have that mobility, the element of surprise and (when defending) hive sight to give them the edge. This allows aliens to continiously push marines further back, as they end up winning more head-on engagements early on. (If this wasn't the case, marines would be able to hold on longer on alien turf, while reinforcements keep flowing to this frontline) Usually one skulk can take out one marine before he dies, if he's playing it clever at least. This is where one less skulk will also come in and make a difference, not to mention the fact that it may in fact make the average skulk player play smarter, knowing that they have a numerical disadvantage and have to use their abilities to the fullest extense (rather than just rushing into marines head on with equal numbers like is often seen currently) i.e it could even slow down gameplay as skulks adapt their offensive strategy. (just rushing head on into marines is going to be less effective when you're 4 vs 5, where as ambushing a group of marines is going to be just as devastating)
Both these alien advantages are even more apparent when aliens spawn right outside a marine base, i.e they have the mobility and equal numbers to continuously pressure marines and pretty much lock them into their spawn at the start of the game.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Build_204" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Build_204</a>
I realize it is essential to appeal to younger E-sport fanatics, and I do enjoy watching NS2HD videos. I know it is needed for the community as a way to make it grow, but to me it is ruining the game immersion. The E-sport modding that is being done are removing the eerie doomy feel to the game. Like the death effects that occur almost instantly after death. I'd much rather see bloody corpses lying around creating a goory moody environment after a bloody skirmish for 20-30 secs.
Maybe we need a E-sport mode and Immersion mode? =)