swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1929795:date=Apr 25 2012, 11:31 PM:name=Salraine_Chi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ Apr 25 2012, 11:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929795"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As a Marine its way too easy to avoid being bitten as you can jump straight over the top of them, turn 180 degrees mid air and shoot as they go past.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Lol, you got outplayed. Instead of making threads on the forums about removing jumping from the game, a vital movement mechanic. You should try to practice killing marines that know how to use jump to evade. A good tip to do so, is to look about 45 degrees up when you get into melee range of the marine. If he jumps, he will still be in your view, and you should have little to no trouble biting the jumping marine.
<!--quoteo(post=1930885:date=Apr 28 2012, 12:22 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Apr 28 2012, 12:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930885"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow, you actually can in NS2! *Mindblown* Check it out guys! You guys were right all along about marine jumping being a problem! <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_m3If_MlrTc"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_m3If_MlrTc" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
....for the marine...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Though we disagree a lot this made my day hahaha. I dont see Marines ever getting skilled movement. Gone are the days of improving your skills, just nerf what you cant beat at skill base 0.
1. If you start off from above them and land on their heads, they can't actually dodge that first bite by jumping. 2. Silence is great for ambushing from behind, I sometimes manage 3 bites without them even noticing. Other advantage is their teammates don't realise either. 3. Time your bites and look up. If they're jumping around Pause enough to see where they're going because guess what.. once in the air they can't really change direction (air control is next to non-existant) 4. Try timing jumps so your bites land while you are in the air. Hard for marine to dodge that with a jump but I have seen some smart marines mixing jumps with crouches now. 5. If all else fails and you've lost sight of the marine, go back to moving unpredictably and pretend you are at range again trying to get close.
<!--quoteo(post=1930673:date=Apr 27 2012, 10:22 AM:name=hapro)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hapro @ Apr 27 2012, 10:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930673"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Additionally, if doing x is objectively better than doing y and x has no penalties, why even bother with y? Just let the game do x for my be default so I don't have to mindlessly press more keys for no reason. The only "skill ceiling" modifier jumping has is "does this player know to jump or not?"... it's not actually skill-based. Maybe you could be a little better at jumping than someone else, but I don't think it'd be very noticeable. Maybe someday we'll even get to people writing scripts that automatically jump for them when they're firing like TF2 Soldiers (after one of the dumbest patches ever that reduced damage if you took self-damage while jumping).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
x has a penalty. When land after jumping, you slow down to 3ish speed. 5 is the base runspeed.
<!--quoteo(post=1930725:date=Apr 27 2012, 12:23 PM:name=RTV)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RTV @ Apr 27 2012, 12:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930725"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Jumping is so damn annyoing in NS2. Situation: I'm skulk and i try to bite a marine, he jump's over me and i lost the orientation. P L E A S E FIX the marine jumping, its so stupid, can you not undraw the weapon of them while they jump?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is 100% being outplayed by the marine. With practice, this won't happen.
The whole thread is incredibly silly. Jumping as a marine needs to be timed. If you spam jump, you're going to slow way down and not have a jump ready when you need it. Jumping is only effective if you are timing your jumps to dodge bites. Spamming jumps is terrible and any decent skulk is going to own a marine who spams jumps even harder than a marine that simply circle strafes.
Jumping as a marine has a movement speed penalty. It doesn't need any more nerfs.
<!--quoteo(post=1931015:date=Apr 28 2012, 08:34 PM:name=Salraine_Chi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ Apr 28 2012, 08:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931015"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@ Elodea Im starting to realise after reading your posts on other subjects you may only come to these forums to disagree with everything regardless of what it is. I watched the bhop videos you posted and you still don't get my point, or maybe you do and just like to cause trouble. I'm going with the latter. I never ever mention bhopping and what you see in the video is what happens when you hammer the space bar. All you have to do is leave a tiny fraction of a second pause between jumps to get around that, but you know that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I only ever post when i have something to say, add, or disagree with. Do you really want me to spam the forums with +1 on everything i agree on? Sometimes i won't post simply because i don't want to sound like an ass saying things about things i don't fully understand myself yet. This is not one of those issues. I don't get this idea that you would think i was being malicious or trying to stir up trouble. I respect your opinion ok. Subjective..Objective..
As yuuki said, make a video showing this jump problem. I would love to see it honestly (really! no malicious intent or anything :s.)
Nothing wrong with being a contrarian. We're the ones trying to stem the tide of blind agreement that leads to this game being <a href="http://starsandcars.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/homer_front1.jpg" target="_blank">a horrible mess</a>.
The reality is that people get confused when you don't agree with everything they said just because they wrote a lot of words about it.
Personally, my problem with jumping isn't that it's hard to hit marines who do it. My problem with it is I feel that it isn't fun for either side and feels 'stupid' within the setting of the game.
I think some people are missing the point here. Flayra has said *long* ago that in a 1v1 batte if a skulk gets the jump on a marine (melee range), then the skulk should win if you have two equally skilled people playing. It's the same reason why a marine will win versus a skulk outside melee range. The marine can kill at range, the skulk can not. That's the tradeoff. The marine benefits from the ability to kill at range, and the skulk benefits in melee range encounters.
I agree with the OP on this. This is more than about 'immersion', this is about balance. Marines have to have a 'negative'. You can't have it both ways. If marines have the upper hand to kill at range *and* in melee range, then let's give the skulk a range weapon and balance it. Sound foolish?
Well that's how I see comments that suggest marines should be able to bounce around like nubs on crack as a means to exploit game mechanics and subvert game balance in order to kill a skulk that had the skill to get the jump on a marine in the first place.
Frankly, a marine should really never encounter a skulk in a 1-on-1 battle since marines are supposed to play as a team, not go off like a rambo. This isn't a question of 'skill'. Yeah it may take 'skill' to jump around while killing a skulk, but that's not the point. Just because something takes 'skill' doesn't meant that it is balanced.
I agree that marine should die in close combat, but I don't think this imply marine shouldn't be able to move properly, but only that skulks should have better movement than marines :
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think removing the weapon when you jump is the solution, the problems that creates the jump fest is more hit-box, collisions and bad performances in general. The slow down on jump is actually a bit annoying in some situations where you want to chain a few jumps to get somewhere.
The main design point that should be taken into account is that a skulk should always be faster and more agile than a marine, but the marine should be able to do as much as possible. It means that if a marine do some crazy moves a good skulk should be able to follow him and land each bite. Do the marine movement as free and potent as possible and do the skulk just better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or skulk > marines do not imply marine = 0, but only that skulk = marines + delta where delta is a positive quantity as small as you want.
But if you tell me this marine jumped, then I agree we should remove jump :
That vid only proves that you're suicidal... jumping right in front of 2 marines <i>with no momentum towards them</i> :\ other than the collide event that glitched.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1931616:date=Apr 29 2012, 10:55 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Apr 29 2012, 10:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931616"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think some people are missing the point here. Flayra has said *long* ago that in a 1v1 batte if a skulk gets the jump on a marine (melee range), then the skulk should win <u><b>if you have two equally skilled people playing.</b></u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There, I outlined a rather important part of that sentence for you, that you apparently decided not to read before posting your reply.
Yes, the skulk should have a significant advantage in melee combat. That's so god damn obvious it shouldn't even have to be said, as it is a melee vs. ranged class engagement. It should be equally obvious that the advantage shouldn't be so great that the alien will always win, no matter what the relative skill level of the opposing players.
To illustrate the point with mumbo-jumbo "statistics": A 75 % win rate for a skulk against an equally skilled marine would make sense. If skill is biased in favor of the marine (the marine is a better player than the skulk), the win rate would be around 50 %. If skill is greatly biased in favor of the marine, the win rate for the skulk would be 25 %.
Even in NS1, which had somewhat less constrained movement for marines, skulks had a huge advantage in close combat against an equally skilled marine. Unfortunately, most players greatly overestimate their own skill and, instead of realizing that they got so outplayed that even game bias in their favor couldn't save them, will cry "EXPLOITZ WTF, OH FALYRA PLZ SAVE US" at every opportunity.
Listening to those players is a great way to create a game that has a shelf life equal to that of an unrefridgerated shrimp.
i gotta agree with fanatic, and for those who like to argue realism... say a rather large dog is rushing at you, and your backed into a corner. would you A: stay there like an idiot and get mauled, or B: try to get past it and run
yes, you can fight in both cases, but which would give you a better chance, staying in front, or going around/over?
Does the dog have an extremely unrealistic field of view so that it can't see you anymore the instant you jump straight up (and look like an idiot while doing it)?
well, most dogs do have trouble looking upwards unless they move their spine to a more vertical position by sitting or standing on their hind legs, and they would rather try to turn than flip over trying to chase an overhead jump
<!--quoteo(post=1931662:date=Apr 29 2012, 08:07 PM:name=ShadowFang)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ShadowFang @ Apr 29 2012, 08:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931662"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i gotta agree with fanatic, and for those who like to argue realism... say a rather large dog is rushing at you, and your backed into a corner. would you A: stay there like an idiot and get mauled, or B: try to get past it and run
yes, you can fight in both cases, but which would give you a better chance, staying in front, or going around/over?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A dog will leap at you, like the Skulk is able to. The difference is, a dog will knock you on the ground whereas a skulk will clip through a marine due to lag, causing disorientation.
<!--quoteo(post=1931616:date=Apr 29 2012, 02:55 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Apr 29 2012, 02:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931616"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think some people are missing the point here. Flayra has said *long* ago that in a 1v1 batte if a skulk gets the jump on a marine (melee range), then the skulk should win if you have two equally skilled people playing. It's the same reason why a marine will win versus a skulk outside melee range. The marine can kill at range, the skulk can not. That's the tradeoff. The marine benefits from the ability to kill at range, and the skulk benefits in melee range encounters.
I agree with the OP on this. This is more than about 'immersion', this is about balance. Marines have to have a 'negative'. You can't have it both ways. If marines have the upper hand to kill at range *and* in melee range, then let's give the skulk a range weapon and balance it. Sound foolish?
Well that's how I see comments that suggest marines should be able to bounce around like nubs on crack as a means to exploit game mechanics and subvert game balance in order to kill a skulk that had the skill to get the jump on a marine in the first place.
Frankly, a marine should really never encounter a skulk in a 1-on-1 battle since marines are supposed to play as a team, not go off like a rambo. This isn't a question of 'skill'. Yeah it may take 'skill' to jump around while killing a skulk, but that's not the point. Just because something takes 'skill' doesn't meant that it is balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If a skulk is in a battle with a theoretical player of equal skill then he will win if he gets the jump on the marine. You also admit that it takes some degree of skill to jump around while killing a skulk. So, for the skulk to lose, it would require the skulk to be of lesser skill, based on the claims you've made. So your only argument here is immersion. Immersion that would hurt balance is never good. That would be like saying aliens should have wallhacks because they have heat vision or whatever it is. It simply isn't logical.
i've had a collion before with a great dane when playing some football, we both hit thr ground but yea, he was able to get up faster, meanwhile, i had a headache @_@
<!--quoteo(post=1931667:date=Apr 29 2012, 05:20 PM:name=hapro)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hapro @ Apr 29 2012, 05:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931667"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A dog will leap at you, like the Skulk is able to. The difference is, a dog will knock you on the ground whereas a skulk will clip through a marine due to lag, causing disorientation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And a military grade automatic weapon will rip the dog or alien to shreds with the force knocking it back while severely incapacitating it. Do you have a point to make?
OK lets take a few scenario's to figure out what the hell everyone is on about. I would like to suggest that people go play some games and try these all out and then come back and discuss it.
Go marine and do each of the following <i><b>15 times</b></i>.
1. When you see a skulk running towards you hit space bar repeatedly and stay in the same spot jumping and shooting. See who wins the most battles. 2. When you see a skulk running towards you hit space bar repeatedly and hold down backwards. See who wins the most battles. 3. When you see a skulk running towards you hit space bar repeatedly and hold down sideways to do a circle. See who wins the most battles. 4. When you see a skulk running towards you hit space bar repeatedly and push forward to jump past them and turn around and shoot them. See who wins most battles. 5. When you see a skulk running towards you hit space bar repeatedly and push left then right then left then right etc. See who wins most battles. 6. When you see a skulk running towards you hit space bar with a small pause after it and hold down backwards. See who wins most battles. 7. When you see a skulk running towards you hit space bar with a small pause after it and hold down sideways to do a circle. See who wins most battles. 8. When you see a skulk running towards you hit space bar with a small pause after it and push forward to jump past them and turn around and shoot them. See who wins most battles. 9. When you see a skulk running towards you hit space bar with a small pause after it and push left then right then left then right etc. See who wins most battles.
<i><b>General results</b></i> that I have found from the list.
1. Died cause hitting space bar repeatedly makes u stop moving altogether and is a dumb thing to do. 2. Died cause going backwards makes you go incredibly slow and should be avoided always. 3. Died cause hitting space bar repeatedly makes u stop moving altogether and is a dumb thing to do. 4. Died cause hitting space bar repeatedly makes u stop moving altogether and is a dumb thing to do. 5. Died cause hitting space bar repeatedly makes u stop moving altogether and is a dumb thing to do. 6. Died cause going backwards makes you go incredibly slow and should be avoided always. 7. Lost most times, won a few against good skulks. The point is you are running sideways all the time so though you are jumping, you are still going in the same direction and makes it easy for the skulk to get you. The initial jump that got you out of the way and gave you the advantage is quickly lost because they can predict where you are going to be and just have to look up snapping following in the same direction. Yes it helps as if you have managed to get enough bullets into them before they get to you, by rights you can have them dead on the second jump. But that has everything to do with having a good aim and taking off enough HP before they even get to you. It has nothing to do with jumping. Are people suggesting we just stand there?
8. 40/60 win/loss which isn't a bad ratio. A draw back to jumping over a skulk is that 80% of the time u take a bite for doing it. Yes after that you have given the skulk a dead zone but you still lost 40% of your HP. Now it comes down to who can turn around faster and nail the other guy. With good skulks I find their dead zone time is very short and can reacquire you very quickly. And due to already having lost HP from the jump I lost more battles than won. Also the other major flaw with this idea is you can collide with the skulk which results in your immediate and painful death.
9. This is the only strategy involving jumping that I have had a high success rate with. In fact this gets me more kills than actually shooting from range as im better at strafing, dodging and jumping for a kill than I am at being a crack shot.
Does this mean jumping is unbalanced? The success rate I found for killing a good skulk while jumping is very limited. 2 out of 9 does not make something unbalanced as far as im concerned. Number 9 is the only decent strategy by changing constant directions with a pause jump that I am able to avoid skulks most of the time and shoot them in the back or face. Also it involves running also to get a good jump, so it's actually strafing and dodging as well. You don't just spamm space bar and to say this doesn't require skill is a load of bull. Actually try jumping with a pause jump strafe left,right, right, left, left forward, and aiming. It's not an easy thing to do. Seriously try it.
So as to a lot of people's opinion there are way more unbalanced, stupid, annoying things in the game that should be focused on, other than marine jumping. Personally I enjoy being able to leap out of the way and trying desperately to avoid a skulk, and think it's a great part of the game.
I just want to add something little... (didnt really read the thread so dunno if it was already mentioned)
While jumping can help you dodging a skulk(or whatever) - you can also not pickup medpacks in air. Cant tell how many marines die everyday while beeing medpack spammed because they jumped too much.
<!--quoteo(post=1931658:date=Apr 29 2012, 09:00 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Apr 29 2012, 09:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931658"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think some people are missing the point here. Flayra has said *long* ago that in a 1v1 batte if a skulk gets the jump on a marine (melee range), then the skulk should win if you have two equally skilled people playing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yes, the skulk should have a significant advantage in melee combat. That's so god damn obvious it shouldn't even have to be said<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yeah it should be obvious, but to some people it isn't. They want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to have the advantage over skulks at range *AND* in melee range. Jumping around repeatedly does that.
We're not talking about anything earth shattering here. There are LOADS of games that link movement to accuracy. Many more have increased accuracy for staying still and/or crouching. This is a common theme in plenty of games, and I would suggest that only in 'less skilled' games does a player not have to worry about weapon accuracy based on their movements.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->most players greatly overestimate their own skill and, instead of realizing that they got so outplayed that even game bias in their favor couldn't save them, will cry "EXPLOITZ WTF, OH FALYRA PLZ SAVE US" at every opportunity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sorry, but I don't consider 'jumping around' to be 'outplaying' anyone. Furthermore, the simple fact that the skulk has made it into melee range without being killed by the marine is a clear indiciation that the skulk 'outplayed' the marine. They give marines guns for a reason. If a person is not paying attention and they get ambushed, they were the ones that got outplayed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Listening to those players is a great way to create a game that has a shelf life equal to that of an unrefridgerated shrimp.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I disagree. If anything I would argue that this is another of those 'casual versus competitive player' remarks that suggests if the game isn't totally skewed to suit the desires of competitve players that it will somehow be a failure.
Just about 'military grade weapons knocking you back' ...
Momentum is a conserved quantity, if firing the weapon doesn't knock the holder over, then the rounds will not generally knock the target over either ... they may *fall* down, but they won't go flying through the air backwards 'movie shotgun to the chest' styles either ...
<!--quoteo(post=1931616:date=Apr 30 2012, 08:55 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Apr 30 2012, 08:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931616"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Its needed to be made clear the different effects and purposes of marine jumping if you want to bring in exploitative definitions. 1) Same as WoW. Moving in a direction while aiming in another (the soft workaround to slow backwards movement speed). Buying time by extending the range between skulk and self. 2) Deliberately taking advantage of overshoot and bad, unaware skulking. Capitalising on bad leaping. 3) Abusing hitbox and prediction. Random jumping not based on any kind of movement read or benefit to your positional advantage. Akin to spray and pray. Not very effective.
A rather strict, one dimensional interpretation of equally skilled skulks and marines in binary situations of melee range = skulk wins guaranteed vice versa. Its just not good for the game to be balanced around the idea of equally skilled combat having only two phases with guaranteed corresponding win rates. You might as well change all alien melee abilities to one hit kills. Assuming balance is 50% and the above win conditions for equally skilled marines and skulks, this means the game has to be balanced simply around the skulk having a 50% chance of getting close. The complexities which need to be opened for this to happen are hardly worth the dumbed down simplicity which eventuates. e.g. heavy accounting of varying engagement distances, ambushing use, different weapon/lifeform behaviour and effective ranges e.g. using a shotgun, or fade. Then there are situations where skulks can exploit this by forcing melee engagement ranges such as RT dancing. Notwithstanding the fact that the dynamics for equally skilled marines/skulks behave differently at different points on the 'skill curve'.
You also have to define the notion of equally skilled marines and skulks. I only mean to ask how you practically and usefully apply it when looking at real situations and pondering balance. How do you look at a situation and say this skulk is worse than this marine, vice versa, or equal? I would venture that my definition including additional player outputs such as marine movement options and skulks being aware and precise is different to yours. Theres more than just 'getting the jump' on a marine. You obviously need to bite accurately and stay in range with your higher speed. Yuuki has a good point, as long as skulk speed/movement options are reasonably higher than marines (which it is) all should be good.
And then there is the success of the game to consider. You get ambushed - good game design will give you a chance to defend to some useful degree (not an upper hand sure) otherwise whats the point in continuing to fight? Wouldn't combat be more interesting if it flowed in and out of melee range? Would it be interesting if marines were unable to escape from melee ranges at all so that skulks only needed to get close to guarantee a win? What consequences does this have for eliminating differentiation between aware aliens and badliens and the incentives that motivate bettering of playstyles?
Your right that jumping shouldn't give marines tip them for an overall advantage for the skill/balance reasons you list. Its however still a matter of degree and has to be matched with the reality of ingame mechanics. No one is advocating crazy 'bouncing like nubs on crack'. The 'bhop movie' was tongue in cheek humour showing how ridiculously hyperbole all the other arguements for nerfing marines were. If it even does boil down to this strict interpretation of 2 phase combat, rifle butt not marine movement is the bigger culprit! People complain about current marine movement because they overestimate themselves. Its irrational and exaggerated. Consider this, given leap, which marine do people complain about? The one that buys a shotgun worth 20 pres and uses jump to outposition and buy extra shots? Or the marine that spends 10 pres on a jp and avoids melee range altogether? (tres is irrelevant)
The fundamental point is this, go back to reality and objectively look at the current state of the game and assess whether jumping gives marines that big exploitative upper hand in the way the OP suggested. I'm following from yuuki's good idea to post videos to show a few realistic examples. You be the judge whether its ridiculously exploitative and imbalanced or not. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vifnx7x0Rzc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vifnx7x0Rzc</a>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We're not talking about anything earth shattering here. There are LOADS of games that link movement to accuracy. Many more have increased accuracy for staying still and/or crouching. This is a common theme in plenty of games, and I would suggest that only in 'less skilled' games does a player not have to worry about weapon accuracy based on their movements.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yea, quake is definitively a less skilled game. Games link movement to accuracy for reasons separate to those you assume they do.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Furthermore, the simple fact that the skulk has made it into melee range without being killed by the marine is a clear indiciation that the skulk 'outplayed' the marine. They give marines guns for a reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry, pressing right click to leap isn't an expression of outplaying. Especially against shotgunners who have to engage in close range. Your right they gave marines guns for a reason. They're marines, not kungfu fighters.
Edit : I should have read Elodea's previous post before making this one, we say basically the same thing :p . Well, now you have more of a skulk point of view :)
My pieces of toughts on the subject :
When I play NS2, I play <b>almost exclusively skulk</b> (or sometimes gorges), because I am horribly bad at anything else :p.
I think there is absolutely no problem with marines movement against skulks. And as a skulk, I find GodofThunder's post very close to what I experience when I am fighting against a marine.
Most of the time I am doing well, and sometimes I get completely owned, and it is often due to the marine skills in avoiding/aiming at me.
From what I read, some people seem to think that there is a constant that should be respected : long range = marine wins, short range = alien wins. I do not agree. It would be the case in a RTS, but this is a FPS, and the players skills have to take an important part in the result of a fight.
In fact, I was really sad at first in NS2, when I discovered that the skulks had their damage and their speed (I think ?) decreased, and their life increased comparing to NS1. It meant that a good ambush wasn't rewarded as much as before. But when I come to think about it, this reward was maybe a bit too much in the previous game. Taking a marine unaware was most of the time a win, unless the marine was *very* skilled. And it was also true the other way. If the marine was lucky enough to check the exact spot where the skulk is hidden (you cannot check everywhere at the same time), it was almost an instant kill.
In a strategic point of view, it is good, in a FPS point of view, it is really frustrating. We cannot control luck. It is the case in either side : the marines sees the skulk and kills him, or he doesnt and he is dead. In NS1 this was almost a good thing, the game was played by peoble who liked challenge, mistakes or bad luck had to be punished, but it made the game very hard to play for the newcomers. There was an impact of skill on the game, but you had to be really good to make a difference in these situations.
Now, it is different. The strategic dimension (placement, timing) is still very important, but not that fundamental. Now it is more a matter of : how much damage will the marine be able to deal to the skulk before he comes to close range, and then how many succesful bites the alien will be able to make before the marine manage to "have the lock" on him again.
In the described situation this means : - An alien managing to ambush a marine will have a free bite (or more if the marine is not skilled enough to react) and no loss of life due to the distance. The marine will still have 2 bites more to react and try to "have the lock" on the alien. The marine will be at a disavantage, but skill will do the rest. - A marine spot an alien hidden in a corner. The marine has the lock on the alien, and can do it a lot of damage, but the alien have still some chance to be able to get away, or, if he feels reaaaally confident to try to close the distance and engage close combat. The alien will be at a disavantage but skill will do the rest.
In both case there are skills that can influence the FPS part. There are ways as a skulk to close the range while making the marine "loose the lock" on him by zigzaging, feinting, using the environnement. There are ways for the marine in close range to evade the skulk and try to gain some distance by moving and timing his jump correctly (see GodofThunder's post).
Of course, this also means that elements like fps, lag, hitreg, etc., will have a much greater impact on the game, because have a strong infulence on the FPS part, but performance is another problem the developpers are fully aware of.
<!--quoteo(post=1931714:date=Apr 29 2012, 11:57 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Apr 29 2012, 11:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931714"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its just not good for the game to be balanced around the idea of equally skilled combat having only two phases with guaranteed corresponding win rates. You might as well change all alien melee abilities to one hit kills.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You would be right if NS was a game like TF2, where the entire game is solely based around player combat. That's the problem that many people overlook though, is that NS isn't just an FPS. Looking at (and trying to balance the game) through that kind of lens will undoubtedly lead to flawed perceptions.
Player versus player combat can NOT win you the game in NS. You can have the best skilled FPS players in the world playing on one team, but if they don't understand the strategy elements that underpin the game, they will lose. Every single time.
I recall back in the NS1 playtest we got complaints from people who only played marines suggesting that skulks were overpowered since marines usually lost in one-on-one battles. It was then that Flayra reminded people that the game is designed so that marines are supposed to work as a team, and travel in groups.
It's the same reason why a skulk that runs into the marine base will get torn to shreds by turrets before doing any damage. That's not how skulks are designed to be played. Balancing the game to make it so that skulks have a 'chance' to solo-attack a base like that is counter-intuitive.
This is the same mindset that spurred the debate over 'combat' mode in NS1. Some people complained loudly about imbalance back then, but Flayra made it clear that the game is not designed to be balanced for one-on-one combat. The mode was only created to give servers something to use to help 'fill up' the server when only a handful of people were playing. That sentiment still exists today. Could you imagine trying to balance an onos versus a stock marine?
Until Flayra states otherwise, his past remark stating that the skulk should have the advantage in a melee battle with a marine stands. Heck, you would think it would be obvious by the amount of damage a single bite does.
We've been down this road before. I recall back in NS1 when we had bunny-hopping marines who could actually bunny-hop at speed while taking out a skulk. Sure it took skill to pull off, but it was unbalanced and ran counter to game design. That was removed. (although the QQ was fast and furious at the time)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry, pressing right click to leap isn't an expression of outplaying. Especially against shotgunners who have to engage in close range. Your right they gave marines guns for a reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Which is why as the game progresses marines can get upgrades to increase their damage and/or survivability.
However, the answer to marine concerns about getting ambushed should be answered by better teamwork and travelling in squads, and not by allowing marines to run around solo without a distinct disadvantage. That's not how this game was designed.
Comments
Lol, you got outplayed.
Instead of making threads on the forums about removing jumping from the game, a vital movement mechanic.
You should try to practice killing marines that know how to use jump to evade.
A good tip to do so, is to look about 45 degrees up when you get into melee range of the marine.
If he jumps, he will still be in your view, and you should have little to no trouble biting the jumping marine.
Nice vid elodea, lol. +1 on the music!
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....for the marine...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Though we disagree a lot this made my day hahaha. I dont see Marines ever getting skilled movement. Gone are the days of improving your skills, just nerf what you cant beat at skill base 0.
Oh and Immersion > Gameplay it seems.
1. If you start off from above them and land on their heads, they can't actually dodge that first bite by jumping.
2. Silence is great for ambushing from behind, I sometimes manage 3 bites without them even noticing. Other advantage is their teammates don't realise either.
3. Time your bites and look up. If they're jumping around Pause enough to see where they're going because guess what.. once in the air they can't really change direction (air control is next to non-existant)
4. Try timing jumps so your bites land while you are in the air. Hard for marine to dodge that with a jump but I have seen some smart marines mixing jumps with crouches now.
5. If all else fails and you've lost sight of the marine, go back to moving unpredictably and pretend you are at range again trying to get close.
x has a penalty. When land after jumping, you slow down to 3ish speed. 5 is the base runspeed.
<!--quoteo(post=1930725:date=Apr 27 2012, 12:23 PM:name=RTV)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RTV @ Apr 27 2012, 12:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930725"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Jumping is so damn annyoing in NS2.
Situation: I'm skulk and i try to bite a marine, he jump's over me and i lost the orientation.
P L E A S E FIX the marine jumping, its so stupid, can you not undraw the weapon of them while they jump?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is 100% being outplayed by the marine. With practice, this won't happen.
The whole thread is incredibly silly. Jumping as a marine needs to be timed. If you spam jump, you're going to slow way down and not have a jump ready when you need it. Jumping is only effective if you are timing your jumps to dodge bites. Spamming jumps is terrible and any decent skulk is going to own a marine who spams jumps even harder than a marine that simply circle strafes.
Jumping as a marine has a movement speed penalty. It doesn't need any more nerfs.
Im starting to realise after reading your posts on other subjects you may only come to these forums to disagree with everything regardless of what it is. I watched the bhop videos you posted and you still don't get my point, or maybe you do and just like to cause trouble. I'm going with the latter. I never ever mention bhopping and what you see in the video is what happens when you hammer the space bar. All you have to do is leave a tiny fraction of a second pause between jumps to get around that, but you know that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I only ever post when i have something to say, add, or disagree with. Do you really want me to spam the forums with +1 on everything i agree on? Sometimes i won't post simply because i don't want to sound like an ass saying things about things i don't fully understand myself yet. This is not one of those issues. I don't get this idea that you would think i was being malicious or trying to stir up trouble. I respect your opinion ok. Subjective..Objective..
As yuuki said, make a video showing this jump problem. I would love to see it honestly (really! no malicious intent or anything :s.)
The reality is that people get confused when you don't agree with everything they said just because they wrote a lot of words about it.
I agree with the OP on this. This is more than about 'immersion', this is about balance. Marines have to have a 'negative'. You can't have it both ways. If marines have the upper hand to kill at range *and* in melee range, then let's give the skulk a range weapon and balance it. Sound foolish?
Well that's how I see comments that suggest marines should be able to bounce around like nubs on crack as a means to exploit game mechanics and subvert game balance in order to kill a skulk that had the skill to get the jump on a marine in the first place.
Frankly, a marine should really never encounter a skulk in a 1-on-1 battle since marines are supposed to play as a team, not go off like a rambo. This isn't a question of 'skill'. Yeah it may take 'skill' to jump around while killing a skulk, but that's not the point. Just because something takes 'skill' doesn't meant that it is balanced.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think removing the weapon when you jump is the solution, the problems that creates the jump fest is more hit-box, collisions and bad performances in general. The slow down on jump is actually a bit annoying in some situations where you want to chain a few jumps to get somewhere.
The main design point that should be taken into account is that a skulk should always be faster and more agile than a marine, but the marine should be able to do as much as possible. It means that if a marine do some crazy moves a good skulk should be able to follow him and land each bite. Do the marine movement as free and potent as possible and do the skulk just better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or skulk > marines do not imply marine = 0, but only that skulk = marines + delta where delta is a positive quantity as small as you want.
But if you tell me this marine jumped, then I agree we should remove jump :
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There, I outlined a rather important part of that sentence for you, that you apparently decided not to read before posting your reply.
Yes, the skulk should have a significant advantage in melee combat. That's so god damn obvious it shouldn't even have to be said, as it is a melee vs. ranged class engagement. It should be equally obvious that the advantage shouldn't be so great that the alien will always win, no matter what the relative skill level of the opposing players.
To illustrate the point with mumbo-jumbo "statistics": A 75 % win rate for a skulk against an equally skilled marine would make sense. If skill is biased in favor of the marine (the marine is a better player than the skulk), the win rate would be around 50 %. If skill is greatly biased in favor of the marine, the win rate for the skulk would be 25 %.
Even in NS1, which had somewhat less constrained movement for marines, skulks had a huge advantage in close combat against an equally skilled marine. Unfortunately, most players greatly overestimate their own skill and, instead of realizing that they got so outplayed that even game bias in their favor couldn't save them, will cry "EXPLOITZ WTF, OH FALYRA PLZ SAVE US" at every opportunity.
Listening to those players is a great way to create a game that has a shelf life equal to that of an unrefridgerated shrimp.
yes, you can fight in both cases, but which would give you a better chance, staying in front, or going around/over?
yes, you can fight in both cases, but which would give you a better chance, staying in front, or going around/over?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A dog will leap at you, like the Skulk is able to. The difference is, a dog will knock you on the ground whereas a skulk will clip through a marine due to lag, causing disorientation.
I agree with the OP on this. This is more than about 'immersion', this is about balance. Marines have to have a 'negative'. You can't have it both ways. If marines have the upper hand to kill at range *and* in melee range, then let's give the skulk a range weapon and balance it. Sound foolish?
Well that's how I see comments that suggest marines should be able to bounce around like nubs on crack as a means to exploit game mechanics and subvert game balance in order to kill a skulk that had the skill to get the jump on a marine in the first place.
Frankly, a marine should really never encounter a skulk in a 1-on-1 battle since marines are supposed to play as a team, not go off like a rambo. This isn't a question of 'skill'. Yeah it may take 'skill' to jump around while killing a skulk, but that's not the point. Just because something takes 'skill' doesn't meant that it is balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If a skulk is in a battle with a theoretical player of equal skill then he will win if he gets the jump on the marine. You also admit that it takes some degree of skill to jump around while killing a skulk. So, for the skulk to lose, it would require the skulk to be of lesser skill, based on the claims you've made. So your only argument here is immersion. Immersion that would hurt balance is never good. That would be like saying aliens should have wallhacks because they have heat vision or whatever it is. It simply isn't logical.
And a military grade automatic weapon will rip the dog or alien to shreds with the force knocking it back while severely incapacitating it. Do you have a point to make?
Go marine and do each of the following <i><b>15 times</b></i>.
1. When you see a skulk running towards you hit space bar repeatedly and stay in the same spot jumping and shooting. See who wins the most battles.
2. When you see a skulk running towards you hit space bar repeatedly and hold down backwards. See who wins the most battles.
3. When you see a skulk running towards you hit space bar repeatedly and hold down sideways to do a circle. See who wins the most battles.
4. When you see a skulk running towards you hit space bar repeatedly and push forward to jump past them and turn around and shoot them. See who wins most battles.
5. When you see a skulk running towards you hit space bar repeatedly and push left then right then left then right etc. See who wins most battles.
6. When you see a skulk running towards you hit space bar with a small pause after it and hold down backwards. See who wins most battles.
7. When you see a skulk running towards you hit space bar with a small pause after it and hold down sideways to do a circle. See who wins most battles.
8. When you see a skulk running towards you hit space bar with a small pause after it and push forward to jump past them and turn around and shoot them. See who wins most battles.
9. When you see a skulk running towards you hit space bar with a small pause after it and push left then right then left then right etc. See who wins most battles.
<i><b>General results</b></i> that I have found from the list.
1. Died cause hitting space bar repeatedly makes u stop moving altogether and is a dumb thing to do.
2. Died cause going backwards makes you go incredibly slow and should be avoided always.
3. Died cause hitting space bar repeatedly makes u stop moving altogether and is a dumb thing to do.
4. Died cause hitting space bar repeatedly makes u stop moving altogether and is a dumb thing to do.
5. Died cause hitting space bar repeatedly makes u stop moving altogether and is a dumb thing to do.
6. Died cause going backwards makes you go incredibly slow and should be avoided always.
7. Lost most times, won a few against good skulks. The point is you are running sideways all the time so though you are jumping, you are still going in the same direction and makes it easy for the skulk to get you. The initial jump that got you out of the way and gave you the advantage is quickly lost because they can predict where you are going to be and just have to look up snapping following in the same direction. Yes it helps as if you have managed to get enough bullets into them before they get to you, by rights you can have them dead on the second jump. But that has everything to do with having a good aim and taking off enough HP before they even get to you. It has nothing to do with jumping. Are people suggesting we just stand there?
8. 40/60 win/loss which isn't a bad ratio. A draw back to jumping over a skulk is that 80% of the time u take a bite for doing it. Yes after that you have given the skulk a dead zone but you still lost 40% of your HP. Now it comes down to who can turn around faster and nail the other guy. With good skulks I find their dead zone time is very short and can reacquire you very quickly. And due to already having lost HP from the jump I lost more battles than won. Also the other major flaw with this idea is you can collide with the skulk which results in your immediate and painful death.
9. This is the only strategy involving jumping that I have had a high success rate with. In fact this gets me more kills than actually shooting from range as im better at strafing, dodging and jumping for a kill than I am at being a crack shot.
Does this mean jumping is unbalanced? The success rate I found for killing a good skulk while jumping is very limited. 2 out of 9 does not make something unbalanced as far as im concerned. Number 9 is the only decent strategy by changing constant directions with a pause jump that I am able to avoid skulks most of the time and shoot them in the back or face. Also it involves running also to get a good jump, so it's actually strafing and dodging as well. You don't just spamm space bar and to say this doesn't require skill is a load of bull. Actually try jumping with a pause jump strafe left,right, right, left, left forward, and aiming. It's not an easy thing to do. Seriously try it.
So as to a lot of people's opinion there are way more unbalanced, stupid, annoying things in the game that should be focused on, other than marine jumping. Personally I enjoy being able to leap out of the way and trying desperately to avoid a skulk, and think it's a great part of the game.
While jumping can help you dodging a skulk(or whatever) - you can also not pickup medpacks in air.
Cant tell how many marines die everyday while beeing medpack spammed because they jumped too much.
So jumping also has a downside. :P
We're not talking about anything earth shattering here. There are LOADS of games that link movement to accuracy. Many more have increased accuracy for staying still and/or crouching. This is a common theme in plenty of games, and I would suggest that only in 'less skilled' games does a player not have to worry about weapon accuracy based on their movements.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->most players greatly overestimate their own skill and, instead of realizing that they got so outplayed that even game bias in their favor couldn't save them, will cry "EXPLOITZ WTF, OH FALYRA PLZ SAVE US" at every opportunity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sorry, but I don't consider 'jumping around' to be 'outplaying' anyone. Furthermore, the simple fact that the skulk has made it into melee range without being killed by the marine is a clear indiciation that the skulk 'outplayed' the marine. They give marines guns for a reason. If a person is not paying attention and they get ambushed, they were the ones that got outplayed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Listening to those players is a great way to create a game that has a shelf life equal to that of an unrefridgerated shrimp.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I disagree. If anything I would argue that this is another of those 'casual versus competitive player' remarks that suggests if the game isn't totally skewed to suit the desires of competitve players that it will somehow be a failure.
Momentum is a conserved quantity, if firing the weapon doesn't knock the holder over, then the rounds will not generally knock the target over either ... they may *fall* down, but they won't go flying through the air backwards 'movie shotgun to the chest' styles either ...
Its needed to be made clear the different effects and purposes of marine jumping if you want to bring in exploitative definitions.
1) Same as WoW. Moving in a direction while aiming in another (the soft workaround to slow backwards movement speed). Buying time by extending the range between skulk and self.
2) Deliberately taking advantage of overshoot and bad, unaware skulking. Capitalising on bad leaping.
3) Abusing hitbox and prediction. Random jumping not based on any kind of movement read or benefit to your positional advantage. Akin to spray and pray. Not very effective.
A rather strict, one dimensional interpretation of equally skilled skulks and marines in binary situations of melee range = skulk wins guaranteed vice versa. Its just not good for the game to be balanced around the idea of equally skilled combat having only two phases with guaranteed corresponding win rates. You might as well change all alien melee abilities to one hit kills. Assuming balance is 50% and the above win conditions for equally skilled marines and skulks, this means the game has to be balanced simply around the skulk having a 50% chance of getting close. The complexities which need to be opened for this to happen are hardly worth the dumbed down simplicity which eventuates. e.g. heavy accounting of varying engagement distances, ambushing use, different weapon/lifeform behaviour and effective ranges e.g. using a shotgun, or fade. Then there are situations where skulks can exploit this by forcing melee engagement ranges such as RT dancing. Notwithstanding the fact that the dynamics for equally skilled marines/skulks behave differently at different points on the 'skill curve'.
You also have to define the notion of equally skilled marines and skulks. I only mean to ask how you practically and usefully apply it when looking at real situations and pondering balance. How do you look at a situation and say this skulk is worse than this marine, vice versa, or equal? I would venture that my definition including additional player outputs such as marine movement options and skulks being aware and precise is different to yours. Theres more than just 'getting the jump' on a marine. You obviously need to bite accurately and stay in range with your higher speed. Yuuki has a good point, as long as skulk speed/movement options are reasonably higher than marines (which it is) all should be good.
And then there is the success of the game to consider. You get ambushed - good game design will give you a chance to defend to some useful degree (not an upper hand sure) otherwise whats the point in continuing to fight? Wouldn't combat be more interesting if it flowed in and out of melee range? Would it be interesting if marines were unable to escape from melee ranges at all so that skulks only needed to get close to guarantee a win? What consequences does this have for eliminating differentiation between aware aliens and badliens and the incentives that motivate bettering of playstyles?
Your right that jumping shouldn't give marines tip them for an overall advantage for the skill/balance reasons you list. Its however still a matter of degree and has to be matched with the reality of ingame mechanics. No one is advocating crazy 'bouncing like nubs on crack'. The 'bhop movie' was tongue in cheek humour showing how ridiculously hyperbole all the other arguements for nerfing marines were. If it even does boil down to this strict interpretation of 2 phase combat, rifle butt not marine movement is the bigger culprit! People complain about current marine movement because they overestimate themselves. Its irrational and exaggerated. Consider this, given leap, which marine do people complain about? The one that buys a shotgun worth 20 pres and uses jump to outposition and buy extra shots? Or the marine that spends 10 pres on a jp and avoids melee range altogether? (tres is irrelevant)
The fundamental point is this, go back to reality and objectively look at the current state of the game and assess whether jumping gives marines that big exploitative upper hand in the way the OP suggested. I'm following from yuuki's good idea to post videos to show a few realistic examples. You be the judge whether its ridiculously exploitative and imbalanced or not. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vifnx7x0Rzc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vifnx7x0Rzc</a>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We're not talking about anything earth shattering here. There are LOADS of games that link movement to accuracy. Many more have increased accuracy for staying still and/or crouching. This is a common theme in plenty of games, and I would suggest that only in 'less skilled' games does a player not have to worry about weapon accuracy based on their movements.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, quake is definitively a less skilled game. Games link movement to accuracy for reasons separate to those you assume they do.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Furthermore, the simple fact that the skulk has made it into melee range without being killed by the marine is a clear indiciation that the skulk 'outplayed' the marine. They give marines guns for a reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, pressing right click to leap isn't an expression of outplaying. Especially against shotgunners who have to engage in close range. Your right they gave marines guns for a reason. They're marines, not kungfu fighters.
that's why everyone who talks about it like they're an expert has absolutely no clue whatsoever
they're just Too Good For It
Also, still trying to wrap my head around the fact Savant was an NS1-playtester. Does. not. compute!
I love the Marines jumping around me. Medspam failure, skulk win.
Nano make me sad :(
My pieces of toughts on the subject :
When I play NS2, I play <b>almost exclusively skulk</b> (or sometimes gorges), because I am horribly bad at anything else :p.
I think there is absolutely no problem with marines movement against skulks. And as a skulk, I find GodofThunder's post very close to what I experience when I am fighting against a marine.
Most of the time I am doing well, and sometimes I get completely owned, and it is often due to the marine skills in avoiding/aiming at me.
From what I read, some people seem to think that there is a constant that should be respected : long range = marine wins, short range = alien wins.
I do not agree. It would be the case in a RTS, but this is a FPS, and the players skills have to take an important part in the result of a fight.
In fact, I was really sad at first in NS2, when I discovered that the skulks had their damage and their speed (I think ?) decreased, and their life increased comparing to NS1. It meant that a good ambush wasn't rewarded as much as before. But when I come to think about it, this reward was maybe a bit too much in the previous game. Taking a marine unaware was most of the time a win, unless the marine was *very* skilled. And it was also true the other way. If the marine was lucky enough to check the exact spot where the skulk is hidden (you cannot check everywhere at the same time), it was almost an instant kill.
In a strategic point of view, it is good, in a FPS point of view, it is really frustrating. We cannot control luck. It is the case in either side : the marines sees the skulk and kills him, or he doesnt and he is dead. In NS1 this was almost a good thing, the game was played by peoble who liked challenge, mistakes or bad luck had to be punished, but it made the game very hard to play for the newcomers. There was an impact of skill on the game, but you had to be really good to make a difference in these situations.
Now, it is different. The strategic dimension (placement, timing) is still very important, but not that fundamental. Now it is more a matter of : how much damage will the marine be able to deal to the skulk before he comes to close range, and then how many succesful bites the alien will be able to make before the marine manage to "have the lock" on him again.
In the described situation this means :
- An alien managing to ambush a marine will have a free bite (or more if the marine is not skilled enough to react) and no loss of life due to the distance. The marine will still have 2 bites more to react and try to "have the lock" on the alien. The marine will be at a disavantage, but skill will do the rest.
- A marine spot an alien hidden in a corner. The marine has the lock on the alien, and can do it a lot of damage, but the alien have still some chance to be able to get away, or, if he feels reaaaally confident to try to close the distance and engage close combat. The alien will be at a disavantage but skill will do the rest.
In both case there are skills that can influence the FPS part. There are ways as a skulk to close the range while making the marine "loose the lock" on him by zigzaging, feinting, using the environnement. There are ways for the marine in close range to evade the skulk and try to gain some distance by moving and timing his jump correctly (see GodofThunder's post).
Of course, this also means that elements like fps, lag, hitreg, etc., will have a much greater impact on the game, because have a strong infulence on the FPS part, but performance is another problem the developpers are fully aware of.
Player versus player combat can NOT win you the game in NS. You can have the best skilled FPS players in the world playing on one team, but if they don't understand the strategy elements that underpin the game, they will lose. Every single time.
I recall back in the NS1 playtest we got complaints from people who only played marines suggesting that skulks were overpowered since marines usually lost in one-on-one battles. It was then that Flayra reminded people that the game is designed so that marines are supposed to work as a team, and travel in groups.
It's the same reason why a skulk that runs into the marine base will get torn to shreds by turrets before doing any damage. That's not how skulks are designed to be played. Balancing the game to make it so that skulks have a 'chance' to solo-attack a base like that is counter-intuitive.
This is the same mindset that spurred the debate over 'combat' mode in NS1. Some people complained loudly about imbalance back then, but Flayra made it clear that the game is not designed to be balanced for one-on-one combat. The mode was only created to give servers something to use to help 'fill up' the server when only a handful of people were playing. That sentiment still exists today. Could you imagine trying to balance an onos versus a stock marine?
Until Flayra states otherwise, his past remark stating that the skulk should have the advantage in a melee battle with a marine stands. Heck, you would think it would be obvious by the amount of damage a single bite does.
We've been down this road before. I recall back in NS1 when we had bunny-hopping marines who could actually bunny-hop at speed while taking out a skulk. Sure it took skill to pull off, but it was unbalanced and ran counter to game design. That was removed. (although the QQ was fast and furious at the time)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry, pressing right click to leap isn't an expression of outplaying. Especially against shotgunners who have to engage in close range. Your right they gave marines guns for a reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Which is why as the game progresses marines can get upgrades to increase their damage and/or survivability.
However, the answer to marine concerns about getting ambushed should be answered by better teamwork and travelling in squads, and not by allowing marines to run around solo without a distinct disadvantage. That's not how this game was designed.