<!--quoteo(post=1931736:date=Apr 30 2012, 03:27 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Apr 30 2012, 03:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931736"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, still trying to wrap my head around the fact Savant was an NS1-playtester. Does. not. compute!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well I better not mention that I have been beta testing/playtesting/QA since the days of the original Half-Life about 15 years ago. Between then and now I've worked on over a hundred titles of games of all varieties, and I've had the good fortune to have worked alongside some great deveopers like Chris Taylor.
One of the things that drew me to volunteering my time to NS playtesting was the fact that the game is unique. It was more than just a 'shooter'. Shooters are a dime a dozen, NS took the idea of a shooter and turned it on its head by creating two sides that were totally and completely different. What normally would be balanced by giving both sides the same possible classes to play, was instead turned on its head.
There is a bigger game to play here outside 1-on-1 combat. That's what people need to remember. As just a FPS, Natural Selection is an 'average' game. It's the other elements of the game that make it unique and desirable. Focusing too much on balancing 1-on-1 combat will kill this game.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2012
You start off by quoting Flayra to support your point of view, but how exactly does that work when what he said is the opposite to your suggestions?
I should also not have to point out to you that Flayra has emphatically stated that NS2 (even more so than NS1) is an FPS first and an RTS second.
Your posts are unfortunately quite dishonest and I am compelled to make a few direct comments:
<!--quoteo(post=1931707:date=Apr 30 2012, 03:12 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Apr 30 2012, 03:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931707"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it should be obvious, but to some people it isn't. They want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to have the advantage over skulks at range *AND* in melee range. Jumping around repeatedly does that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, nobody is saying that. The claim that some people "want to have the advantage over skulks (...) in melee range" is so patently ridiculous that you should feel ashamed for even posting it. Furthermore, even the most expert jumping-jack-marine does not have an advantage over an equally skilled skulk in close combat in the current NS2 beta.
<!--quoteo(post=1931707:date=Apr 30 2012, 03:12 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Apr 30 2012, 03:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931707"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disagree. If anything I would argue that this is another of those 'casual versus competitive player' remarks that suggests if the game isn't totally skewed to suit the desires of competitve players that it will somehow be a failure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just because a "competitive player" happens to disagree with you, doesn't make it a case of "casual versus competitive player". Both casual and competitive players alike want the FPS part of the game to be fun and balanced. Arguing that marines should be able to use movement to their advantage doesn't actually run counter to that.
<!--quoteo(post=1931907:date=Apr 30 2012, 08:28 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Apr 30 2012, 08:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You would be right if NS was a game like TF2, where the entire game is solely based around player combat. That's the problem that many people overlook though, is that NS isn't just an FPS. Looking at (and trying to balance the game) through that kind of lens will undoubtedly lead to flawed perceptions.
Player versus player combat can NOT win you the game in NS. You can have the best skilled FPS players in the world playing on one team, but if they don't understand the strategy elements that underpin the game, they will lose. Every single time.
I recall back in the NS1 playtest we got complaints from people who only played marines suggesting that skulks were overpowered since marines usually lost in one-on-one battles. It was then that Flayra reminded people that the game is designed so that marines are supposed to work as a team, and travel in groups.
It's the same reason why a skulk that runs into the marine base will get torn to shreds by turrets before doing any damage. That's not how skulks are designed to be played. Balancing the game to make it so that skulks have a 'chance' to solo-attack a base like that is counter-intuitive.
This is the same mindset that spurred the debate over 'combat' mode in NS1. Some people complained loudly about imbalance back then, but Flayra made it clear that the game is not designed to be balanced for one-on-one combat. The mode was only created to give servers something to use to help 'fill up' the server when only a handful of people were playing. That sentiment still exists today. Could you imagine trying to balance an onos versus a stock marine?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is something everyone will agree with, and it certainly isn't in inherent opposition to the arguments made by the people you are arguing against in this thread, so why are you posting it in a way that implies "we" disagree with it?
<!--quoteo(post=1931907:date=Apr 30 2012, 08:28 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Apr 30 2012, 08:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We've been down this road before. I recall back in NS1 when we had bunny-hopping marines who could actually bunny-hop at speed while taking out a skulk. Sure it took skill to pull off, but it was unbalanced and ran counter to game design. That was removed. (although the QQ was fast and furious at the time)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, we haven't been down this road before. The nerfs to marine bunnyhopping in the extremely early stages of NS1 were absolutely necessary. Even the most die hard competitive players agreed that it was a necessary change. I don't know who the people you quote as "QQ"ing were, but I've certainly never met them. I don't doubt that there were people who argued that marines should be able to freely bunnyhop, but equating them with the people who think that all marine movement capabilities in combat shouldn't be removed is ridiculous.
The problem as I see it is not that jumping will let a marine win in 1v1, even with clever use jump you will more often then not die if the skulk has managed to get next to you and this is all well and good. If this game consisted only of 1v1 combats then I would have no issues with it, the problem arises when you are in a teamfight. The thing is that jump makes a marine CONSIDERABLY more difficult to kill and while a skulk will manage it eventually it will take time, and time is what you do not have when the marine's buddies are standing 15m away shooting the crap out of you. Sure if that marine was alone you would have killed him because frankly aiming at skulks cluster######ing around your feet is hardly a picnic and the skulk only has too land 3ish bites but the moment you introduce marine teammates (who can support each other anywhere in their LoS, in fact it is much easier to hit skulks at medium range then point blank cause they cant juke you as easily) things get hairy. Atm this is not much of an issue cause most of the times marines cluster up like idiots, but the moment people figure out that its easier to shoot a skulk off your buddy if you are a good 10-15m away rather then right next to him things will get nasty. Add also the problem that jumping scales very well with number of alien attackers, it is almost as effective in prolonging your life against 3 skulks as it is against one as long (as they dont murder you on first bite). Compounded with the ###### alien collision as it is in its current state (which means more often then not the skulks will get in each others way) and the superior synergy that rifle marines have makes jump EXTREMELY annoying. The simplest fix it seems to me would be to change the nature of the skulk's FoV, jump's biggest advantage is that you can jump clean over a skulk and make it very confusing for it to keep track of you and reorient. With an increased FoV skulks would be much more capable of tracking marines and jump would now be just a jump, not some sort of mad disorientating manoeuvre. I realize that an increase in FoV would mean a distortion in the skulk's vision but I think that it would add a nice 'alien' to playing a skulk and make him more distinct from being just a box with teeth on it.
That or make the skulk bite make the marine in capable of jumping high (hard to jump with skulk attached to you). This would still give the marines that first jump to avoid contact, but once contact has been made you're in for it! This would also get rid of that annoying ###### where you sneak up on a marine all quiet like from behind and bite him in the ass only to have him sail upwards and vanish while you chase your own tail trying to figure out where he landed.
*edit* posters above me already said most of it -_-. beaten to the punch
<!--quoteo(post=1931907:date=May 1 2012, 06:28 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ May 1 2012, 06:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You would be right if NS was a game like TF2, where the entire game is solely based around player combat. That's the problem that many people overlook though, is that NS isn't just an FPS. Looking at (and trying to balance the game) through that kind of lens will undoubtedly lead to flawed perceptions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nice post, but i think there are a few fundamental misconceptions. 1) I can just as easily quote Flayra as stating a design constraint and goal of NS2 as being first and foremost an FPS over an RTS when it comes down to the tradeoffs. Your example of the skulk being torn to shreds by turrets is a prime example of this and why turrets have always been a 'unfun' problem to the point where they're being redesigned to be effective only in the presence of marine players.
2) RTS and strategy by no means should be interpreted as rulesets that necessarily follow grand overhead philosophy. Strategy doesn't mean that rules are only one dimensional and hardfast like simple card game mechanics i.e. my 10 attack points beats your 5 defense points thus i win. This kind of thinking really isn't good for games that strive to have any kind of non-meta player interaction beyond the simple cardgame including those in the strategy genre. I only need to bring up starcraft as a prime example of a successful RTS, the prevalence of micromanagement and the dynamics of terran units for example that use range and mobility to accrue individual discrete advantages (You need to stop lumping everything into this one 'overall advantage'). Instead of being regarded as a scourge to balance, its highly regarded as a praiseworthy skill differentiation that's integral to the game. RTS is an overarching term that can just as easily cover traditional strategy and 'strategy' on a microlevel aka tactics. Moreover, emergent 'strategy' is good for any game that wants to take esport and spectatoring seriously. Its beautiful to watch and partake in.
Taken to the extremes it can result in incredibly 'imbalanced' trades in terms of the macro level strategic inputs and outputs. All of this however is a matter of degree and involves a healthy and reasonable balance between difficulty to execute and reward. You cannot simply eviscerate fundamental dimensions of a game simply because they don't match your narrow interpretation of strategy. <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/DXUOWXidcY0"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/DXUOWXidcY0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Moreover, even the 'strategy' aspect you describe in terms of armour and damage upgrades points to the fact that combat unintentionally or not, is not meant to be designed around this strict 2 phase system you describe. Your saying that the macro strategy element allows for a change in marine/skulk dynamics where upgrades affect the changes of marines to win in melee ranges. If this is allowed, then why is the 'micro' aspect which is marine movement strictly not allowed?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Player versus player combat can NOT win you the game in NS. You can have the best skilled FPS players in the world playing on one team, but if they don't understand the strategy elements that underpin the game, they will lose. Every single time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 3) I really feel like i need to call you out on this. Likewise, you can have the best understanding of the strategic elements that underpin the game and have the worst skilled FPS players in the world and still lose! "Every time!" To go back to an RTS such as Starcraft: You can have the best build execution and a perfectly optimised resource, ugprade, army composition game, but if you can't control your army to come out ahead of your opponent by winning engagements it doesn't do you any good either.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is the same mindset that spurred the debate over 'combat' mode in NS1. Some people complained loudly about imbalance back then, but Flayra made it clear that the game is not designed to be balanced for one-on-one combat. The mode was only created to give servers something to use to help 'fill up' the server when only a handful of people were playing. That sentiment still exists today. Could you imagine trying to balance an onos versus a stock marine?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 4) It is a misconception that marine movement is used solely in the realms of 1 v 1 skulk/fade vs marine and is only relevant to rambos. Very wrong. I already described the purposes of marine jumping and dodging in my previous post in as pure a sense as possible. One of them was to buy time and extend or recapture ranged advantages. I had hoped i didnt need to state that this also applies strongly in squad situations. Another is to open lines of fire. Since it seems like people are so took up about immersion, realism, and 'strategic determination', go take a look at the historical <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Zama" target="_blank">Battle of Zama</a> where Roman infantry used mobility to their advantage to counter elephants. Mobility and strategy are not mutually exclusive concepts. No one is talking about balancing onos vs single stock marine.
5) This discussion is about people wanting to nerf <b>currrent marine movement</b>. It serves no purpose to continually link it as being remotely related to NS1 bhop and that history. Perhaps it is not your intention, but it certainly is the intention of others to shutdown spheres of emergent 'strategic' thought (like movement) simply because they don't understand it.
<!--quoteo(post=1931907:date=Apr 30 2012, 03:28 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Apr 30 2012, 03:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I recall back in the NS1 playtest we got complaints from people who only played marines suggesting that skulks were overpowered since marines usually lost in one-on-one battles. It was then that Flayra reminded people that the game is designed so that marines are supposed to work as a team, and travel in groups.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is this why it feels like we have to 2v1/3v1 skulks in every pub for the last 10 builds? I shouldn't have to go in depth and explain why it's a horrible system, and "travel in groups" is a giant cop-out of an excuse. The skulks can travel in groups too.
If this topic gets to ten pages I have lost all faith in this community. There shouldn't even be a debate about this. This has been a strawman argument from the beginning, there was never a problem in the first place until a small group of people started getting on this "immersion" boat. No one has argued for something about immersion before as the sole argument, and no one will after.
<!--quoteo(post=1931969:date=Apr 30 2012, 11:27 PM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ Apr 30 2012, 11:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931969"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If this topic gets to ten pages I have lost all faith in this community.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No need, elodea just won it.
Can we agree that it looks incredibly stupid, though? The immersion angle sorta makes sense when you consider that nothing else in the whole rest of the game has been identified as "looking out of place" like marines hopping at point blank to stay alive.
<!--quoteo(post=1931942:date=Apr 30 2012, 05:45 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Apr 30 2012, 05:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931942"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I should also not have to point out to you that Flayra has emphatically stated that NS2 (even more so than NS1) is an FPS first and an RTS second.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I never said it wasn't. But what I have said (as has Flayra) is that NS2 is NOT 'just' another FPS. You can't look at the game from strictly an FPS standpoint, it has to be looked at from the whole, which includes the non-FPS elements. Heck, the addition of the alien 'commander' has taken NS2 further away from being seen as 'just another FPS'.
NS (1 and 2) has always been an FPS first, that's obvious. However, it's more than *JUST* an FPS, and that doesn't seem to be as obvious to some people. (Not directing this at you or anyone in particular, but there are those who look at the game from a strict FPS standpoint, and their opinions are flawed as a result.)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to have the advantage over skulks at range *AND* in melee range. Jumping around repeatedly does that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The claim that some people "want to have the advantage over skulks (...) in melee range" is so patently ridiculous that you should feel ashamed for even posting it. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It's not ridiculous at all. You can't have it both ways. You can't defend practices that do exactly what I describe and then insult me for my remarks.
Why are we having this debate then? Do we all agree that marines should be at a disadvantage when engaged in melee range by a skulk? <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just because a "competitive player" happens to disagree with you, doesn't make it a case of "casual versus competitive player". Both casual and competitive players alike want the FPS part of the game to be fun and balanced. Arguing that marines should be able to use movement to their advantage doesn't actually run counter to that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It's *ALWAYS* been a case of casual versus competitive though, and it has been siunce before NS1 released. This is why I have advocated repeatedly that the game should be designed so that it can be 'tweaked' for competitive matches without affecting 'casual' gameplay. However, I digress...
I'm not against marines being able to use certain 'movements' to their advantage, but those movements have to stay in context with the game. There is a reason why aliens can 'bunny hop' (to use the term loosely) and marines can not. It's also why I liked the change which sees aliens no longer able to use ladders.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The nerfs to marine bunnyhopping in the extremely early stages of NS1 were absolutely necessary. Even the most die hard competitive players agreed that it was a necessary change. I don't know who the people you quote as "QQ"ing were, but I've certainly never met them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That doesn't mean they don't exist. Perhaps you don't remember much from 'back in the day', but I sure do. This issue persisted over years.
Let me quote a post (that isn't mine - so that I don't bias my response)... <!--quoteo(post=1717933:date=Jul 18 2009, 05:02 PM:name=Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot @ Jul 18 2009, 05:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1717933"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--QuoteBegin-'(developers)'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('(developers)')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We haven't decided exactly what's happening here but we can all agree on a few things: Skulks should have skill-based movement and we don't want marines jumping around like crazy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Thank you so very much I agree wholeheartedly.
I'm so happy I'm tearing up because from what I recall at least 1/3 of my time spent on these forums, back in the day, was arguing about Marine bunny hopping with clanners.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Seems I'm not the only one who recalls that. Note that post is from 2009, and had 120 replies. There is also <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=109730" target="_blank">this post</a> from 2010 that has 400 replies. Go back further and you find more and more threads.
<!--QuoteBegin-'Flayra'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('Flayra')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's not an easy balance to achieve, but we do want to make a game that will be both the best competitive game since Starcraft and also one that many people can enjoy casually without being in a clan or an experienced or knowledgeable NS player. That's the goal at least!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I stand behind Flayra's remarks here, as well as the remark that they "don't want marines jumping around like crazy".
<!--quoteo(post=1931955:date=Apr 30 2012, 06:43 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Apr 30 2012, 06:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931955"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) I can just as easily quote Flayra as stating a design constraint and goal of NS2 as being first and foremost an FPS over an RTS when it comes down to the tradeoffs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I don't disagree. I expanded on this above.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) ... Moreover, even the 'strategy' aspect you describe in terms of armour and damage upgrades points to the fact that combat unintentionally or not, is not meant to be designed around this strict 2 phase system you describe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->While I did (initentionally) oversimplify my remarks, I didn't intend to convey that the combat system is (or should be) that simple.
I suggested that in a melee battle where a skulk ambushes a marine the skulk should win. While a simplistic statement, there are still LOADS of variables that can change the outcome. However, I wasn't suggesting that it should be the ONLY outcome, I was suggesting that it should be the EXPECTED outcome. Is it POSSIBLE that the marine can win the skulk vs. marine battle at melee range? Sure. Should it be PROBABLE that the marine will win the skulk vs. marine battle at melee range? No.
Plenty of factors can and will affect the outcome. The debate is whether the ability of a marine to bang away at their space bar should impact the outcome in their favour.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3) ... you can have the best understanding of the strategic elements that underpin the game and have the worst skilled FPS players in the world and still lose! "Every time!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I totally agree with you here, and I have never suggested otherwise. My point was to underpin the fact that the game isn't a 'two dimenetional' FPS (or RTS) game, it's a 'three dimentional' FPS <b>&</b> RTS game. As such, any team that fails to grasp that important element does so at their own peril.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4) ... I already described the purposes of marine jumping and dodging in my previous post in as pure a sense as possible. One of them was to buy time and extend or recapture ranged advantages.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The problem is that once a skulk is biting at your ass you are<b> out of time</b>. That's the real bottom line here. It's one thing to talk about movement before melee contact is made, but once that contact *IS* made the marine is (and should be) at a disadvantage. If I let a skulk ambush me because I foolishly went off alone, then I shouldn't expect any game mechanic to allow me to 'recapture a range advantage'. The time for that has passed. Marines start with the range advantage, once they lose it they should not be able to regain it since by design the skulk is faster than the marine.
Now this doesn't mean there shouldn't be ways to survive the encounter, but it does mean that a marine shouldn't expect to 'get range' on a skulk that is already in melee range and is biting on their ass.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->5) This discussion is about people wanting to nerf <b>currrent marine movement</b>. It serves no purpose to continually link it as being remotely related to NS1 bhop and that history.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I respectfully disagree. Many of the same points being made here were made back then. However to suggest this is only about "people wanting to nerf currrent marine movement" is too narrow in my opinion. The bigger issue here is balance and gameplay. We're still in a beta, and the game can and will change. Why people object to this discussion is somewhat perplexing. Like the devlopers, I want to see the best game possible delivered when the game is released. I have no prejudices other than to what I feel will best appeal to the public.
However, in the end, the decision still rests with the developers.
<!--quoteo(post=1931967:date=Apr 30 2012, 07:25 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Apr 30 2012, 07:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is this why it feels like we have to 2v1/3v1 skulks in every pub for the last 10 builds? I shouldn't have to go in depth and explain why it's a horrible system, and "travel in groups" is a giant cop-out of an excuse.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I disagree that "travel in groups is a giant cop-out". It's been like this from the beginning, and from day 1 Flayra designed marines so that they are most effective in squads.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The skulks can travel in groups too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sure, but that rarely happens. However, 'wave spawn' may change that.
Part of the issue is that marines have superior synergy due to having guns. If skulks wish to support each other they must all be next to their target and his victim, but if marines wish to support each other all they need is LoS (heck, its easier to hit distant skulks than one's scurrying around your feet). You cannot simply ignore group dynamics because the majority of fights (once everyone gets their ###### together) will be between groups.
<!--quoteo(post=1929733:date=Apr 25 2012, 10:42 PM:name=Salraine_Chi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ Apr 25 2012, 10:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929733"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hate to bang on but the marine spam jumping is still a major problem for me. In build 204 it seems to lessen somewhat and I was very happy about it. But its back with a vengeance and all a player has to do is wait a split second to hit the space bar and bounce around like an idiot. It just doesn't fit well into the game at all for me. The marines should be on the ground unless they have a jet pack. A severe accuracy penalty maybe or something when jumping or a higher stamina drain after each jump for a longer period than is already implemented. Its still the only major part of the game I do not like.
Sal<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't know if u ever play marine but the odds that u survive a close 1on1 fight whit a skulk are very very slim , jumping and avoiding bites or just making the skulk dizzy is like the first weapon a marine has vs skulks ... then comes luck/aim/com support... u should play marine from time to time to see how frustrating it gets to play vs good skulks ;)
I specialize in alien play but from time to time i go marine and i can honestly say it's no fun at all if u are stuck whit a com that does not support .
<!--quoteo(post=1929733:date=Apr 25 2012, 07:42 PM:name=Salraine_Chi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ Apr 25 2012, 07:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929733"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hate to bang on but the marine spam jumping is still a major problem for me. In build 204 it seems to lessen somewhat and I was very happy about it. But its back with a vengeance and all a player has to do is wait a split second to hit the space bar and bounce around like an idiot. It just doesn't fit well into the game at all for me. The marines should be on the ground unless they have a jet pack. A severe accuracy penalty maybe or something when jumping or a higher stamina drain after each jump for a longer period than is already implemented. Its still the only major part of the game I do not like.
Sal<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why exactly are jumping marines a problem for you? You want them to stand still too? I'm kinda puzzled by this whole thread as i never considered "jumping players" an problem, neither in the original NS nor NS2. To the contrary, jumping had always been an integral part of the games gameplay for me.
Natural Selection has always been an game about "skill based movement", it promotes a Quake style of play that's fast paced and gives the player many options for advanced movement by adapting his movement/playstyle to the enviorment and "quirks" of the engine. And that's a good thing because it adds depth to the game and an "intuitive learning curve" that relates to the overall feel for the engine and game in general. It makes the game feel more responsive and as such more engaging.
It also adds a little bit of verticality to the marine movement that's really required, you don't want to feel glued to the ground when you spent the other half of your gameplay as the very mobile and nimble skulk climbing walls.
Personaly i jump a lot, i haven mouse2 bound to jump in every game i play for that reason. And as a marine i never really "spam" it, i use it with timing that's mostly based on sound of the skulk movement. I can jump circles around most "torpedo skulks" this way, because they don't aim at marines, they run torwards them and as such will never compensate for the vertical movement of a jump that could happen.
As Kharaa, jumping and evading marines are also more fun to kill and fight with. I don't want a bunch of stationary targets that easily die as soon as i'm close up. Getting close up should be an advantage even more so unnoticed but it shouldn't be an "autowin" regardless of how the other player reacts. Because abilities like walljumping, leap, blink or shadowstep give the kharaa many options to completly negate the marine teams range advantage.
<!--quoteo(post=1931017:date=Apr 28 2012, 11:59 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Apr 28 2012, 11:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931017"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe you should make a video showing marines escaping your bites consistently, so the problem is clearer for everybody. Personally I do miss some bites when marines are moving around like crazy, but I feel like it's my fault or bad performance/collision fault instead of marine jump.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I guess its some kind of glitch? I mean i had that situation a lot, marines jumping on and over skulks to escaper their bites. sometimes the marine jumps on the skulk, while the skulk jumps and the marine double jumps...
xVision's comment is very good, "-Remove ability to fire while jumping" make it way better. Or a marine jump makes the marine slow for a second, so he can't jump around but jump on objects. This is not a jump and run game...
<!--quoteo(post=1930679:date=Apr 27 2012, 04:37 PM:name=Corpsey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corpsey @ Apr 27 2012, 04:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930679"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would prefer fire be spread if it came down to this.. there's no reason someone CAN'T jump and press an automatic weapon's trigger.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> there's no reason someone CAN'T pickup two rifles and fire them at once...
<!--quoteo(post=1932169:date=May 1 2012, 11:49 AM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ May 1 2012, 11:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932169"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or a marine jump makes the marine slow for a second, so he can't jump around but jump on objects.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is already in the game.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1932036:date=May 1 2012, 12:52 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ May 1 2012, 12:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why are we having this debate then? Do we all agree that marines should be at a disadvantage when engaged in melee range by a skulk?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, we do. The difference lies in the degree of disadvantage. Your interpretation of "a disadvantage" is radically different from the common interpretation of that word, but you seem to ignore that completely while making your arguments. You're content with demonizing everyone who has a less extreme interpretation than yourself, as basically arguing for the marines having an advantage in melee, which is loving ridiculous.
<!--quoteo(post=1932036:date=May 1 2012, 12:52 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ May 1 2012, 12:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The claim that some people "want to have the advantage over skulks (...) in melee range" is so patently ridiculous that you should feel ashamed for even posting it. It's not ridiculous at all. You can't have it both ways. You can't defend practices that do exactly what I describe and then insult me for my remarks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, nobody is defending practices "that do exactly what (you) describe". Even if the marines were rolled back to NS1 style movement mechanics, the skulk would still have a significant advantage in melee.
<!--quoteo(post=1932036:date=May 1 2012, 12:52 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ May 1 2012, 12:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's *ALWAYS* been a case of casual versus competitive though, and it has been siunce before NS1 released. This is why I have advocated repeatedly that the game should be designed so that it can be 'tweaked' for competitive matches without affecting 'casual' gameplay. However, I digress...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It only becomes "a case of casual versus competitive" when people like you start chanting war cries. This thread was moving along nicely without any competitive/casual conniving until you blundered in like a bull in a china shop.
<!--quoteo(post=1932036:date=May 1 2012, 12:52 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ May 1 2012, 12:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seems I'm not the only one who recalls that. Note that post is from 2009, and had 120 replies. There is also <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=109730" target="_blank">this post</a> from 2010 that has 400 replies. Go back further and you find more and more threads.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have no idea what that reply was about, but marine bunnyhopping hasn't been an issue since 2.0 was released, and that was over eight years ago. I played from 1.04 and onwards and I can't remember a single "competitive player" arguing in favor of marines being able to bunnyhop in combat. The bunnyhop discussion threads you refer to are all talking about alien bunnyhopping, which is a different issue altogether.
<!--quoteo(post=1932036:date=May 1 2012, 12:52 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ May 1 2012, 12:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not against marines being able to use certain 'movements' to their advantage, but those movements have to stay in context with the game. There is a reason why aliens can 'bunny hop' (to use the term loosely) and marines can not. It's also why I liked the change which sees aliens no longer able to use ladders.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is something we can agree on. Aliens can't actually bunnyhop in NS2 though, not even when "(using) the term loosely".
Really, this is all an l2p issue. As a marine, jumping more than once will get you killed, because you will be jumping on the spot. As a skulk, charging straight forward like a bull versus a matador will get you killed, because you ran straight forward like a dumb bull.
the way it looks to me with regard to 'advantage in close' is that at range, marines can do damage, skulks cant. once those skulks close, either by sneakery or by dodging, the only thing that really changes is that the skulks can start to hit back. the speed at which an accurate amount of gunfire can down a skulk compared to 3 bites or more is pretty close, and normally damage has been taken by the time they DO close from range if such is the case.
with 'combat ballet' *read, combat jumping*, the marines still have a dodge advantage as WELL as the same consistant damage, since a good FPS player, unlike an actual rifleman, has no disadvantage to shooting that kind of weapon at their feet or in close. the only disadvantage to the marine really at this point is they can be hit back. someone having aim that isn't good enough to keep up is their problem, and not one that the programmers should have to account for. i've seen marine players able to fire with pinpoint acc in close in mid-flight as well as at range, so that is no disadvantage since their dmg output if they hit is not diminished
i myself have trouble seeing the top and bottom of the screen cause of the 'mouth cam', which means that for a good 1/2 second my screen is nothing but the inside of the mouth from the bite. thats a bigger disadvantage than one would think
IMO, if a skulk is in biting range, and has hit at least once, marines should be grounded until a short time has passed, and have to rely on good aim, fast reflexes, circle-strafing skills, and above all THEIR TEAMMATES! the only exception to this would be, i imagine, jetpacks.
in any case, simply 'being able to be hit back' is not an advantage, since a players reflexes can be good enough to match/negate the skulks speed advantage. marines need some kind of penalty, either in accuracy, evasion *either by inhibiting jumping, and/or causing a slow effect*, or damage once their engaged in melee.
on the flipside, at range, if a marine sees a skulk and has good accuracy the skulk should more or less wind up dead if it doesnt think fast, which is already usually the case, particularly if more than 1 marine is present and firing.
Comments
One of the things that drew me to volunteering my time to NS playtesting was the fact that the game is unique. It was more than just a 'shooter'. Shooters are a dime a dozen, NS took the idea of a shooter and turned it on its head by creating two sides that were totally and completely different. What normally would be balanced by giving both sides the same possible classes to play, was instead turned on its head.
There is a bigger game to play here outside 1-on-1 combat. That's what people need to remember. As just a FPS, Natural Selection is an 'average' game. It's the other elements of the game that make it unique and desirable. Focusing too much on balancing 1-on-1 combat will kill this game.
I should also not have to point out to you that Flayra has emphatically stated that NS2 (even more so than NS1) is an FPS first and an RTS second.
Your posts are unfortunately quite dishonest and I am compelled to make a few direct comments:
<!--quoteo(post=1931707:date=Apr 30 2012, 03:12 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Apr 30 2012, 03:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931707"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it should be obvious, but to some people it isn't. They want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to have the advantage over skulks at range *AND* in melee range. Jumping around repeatedly does that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, nobody is saying that. The claim that some people "want to have the advantage over skulks (...) in melee range" is so patently ridiculous that you should feel ashamed for even posting it. Furthermore, even the most expert jumping-jack-marine does not have an advantage over an equally skilled skulk in close combat in the current NS2 beta.
<!--quoteo(post=1931707:date=Apr 30 2012, 03:12 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Apr 30 2012, 03:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931707"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disagree. If anything I would argue that this is another of those 'casual versus competitive player' remarks that suggests if the game isn't totally skewed to suit the desires of competitve players that it will somehow be a failure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because a "competitive player" happens to disagree with you, doesn't make it a case of "casual versus competitive player". Both casual and competitive players alike want the FPS part of the game to be fun and balanced. Arguing that marines should be able to use movement to their advantage doesn't actually run counter to that.
<!--quoteo(post=1931907:date=Apr 30 2012, 08:28 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Apr 30 2012, 08:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You would be right if NS was a game like TF2, where the entire game is solely based around player combat. That's the problem that many people overlook though, is that NS isn't just an FPS. Looking at (and trying to balance the game) through that kind of lens will undoubtedly lead to flawed perceptions.
Player versus player combat can NOT win you the game in NS. You can have the best skilled FPS players in the world playing on one team, but if they don't understand the strategy elements that underpin the game, they will lose. Every single time.
I recall back in the NS1 playtest we got complaints from people who only played marines suggesting that skulks were overpowered since marines usually lost in one-on-one battles. It was then that Flayra reminded people that the game is designed so that marines are supposed to work as a team, and travel in groups.
It's the same reason why a skulk that runs into the marine base will get torn to shreds by turrets before doing any damage. That's not how skulks are designed to be played. Balancing the game to make it so that skulks have a 'chance' to solo-attack a base like that is counter-intuitive.
This is the same mindset that spurred the debate over 'combat' mode in NS1. Some people complained loudly about imbalance back then, but Flayra made it clear that the game is not designed to be balanced for one-on-one combat. The mode was only created to give servers something to use to help 'fill up' the server when only a handful of people were playing. That sentiment still exists today. Could you imagine trying to balance an onos versus a stock marine?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is something everyone will agree with, and it certainly isn't in inherent opposition to the arguments made by the people you are arguing against in this thread, so why are you posting it in a way that implies "we" disagree with it?
<!--quoteo(post=1931907:date=Apr 30 2012, 08:28 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Apr 30 2012, 08:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We've been down this road before. I recall back in NS1 when we had bunny-hopping marines who could actually bunny-hop at speed while taking out a skulk. Sure it took skill to pull off, but it was unbalanced and ran counter to game design. That was removed. (although the QQ was fast and furious at the time)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, we haven't been down this road before. The nerfs to marine bunnyhopping in the extremely early stages of NS1 were absolutely necessary. Even the most die hard competitive players agreed that it was a necessary change. I don't know who the people you quote as "QQ"ing were, but I've certainly never met them. I don't doubt that there were people who argued that marines should be able to freely bunnyhop, but equating them with the people who think that all marine movement capabilities in combat shouldn't be removed is ridiculous.
Atm this is not much of an issue cause most of the times marines cluster up like idiots, but the moment people figure out that its easier to shoot a skulk off your buddy if you are a good 10-15m away rather then right next to him things will get nasty. Add also the problem that jumping scales very well with number of alien attackers, it is almost as effective in prolonging your life against 3 skulks as it is against one as long (as they dont murder you on first bite). Compounded with the ###### alien collision as it is in its current state (which means more often then not the skulks will get in each others way) and the superior synergy that rifle marines have makes jump EXTREMELY annoying.
The simplest fix it seems to me would be to change the nature of the skulk's FoV, jump's biggest advantage is that you can jump clean over a skulk and make it very confusing for it to keep track of you and reorient. With an increased FoV skulks would be much more capable of tracking marines and jump would now be just a jump, not some sort of mad disorientating manoeuvre. I realize that an increase in FoV would mean a distortion in the skulk's vision but I think that it would add a nice 'alien' to playing a skulk and make him more distinct from being just a box with teeth on it.
That or make the skulk bite make the marine in capable of jumping high (hard to jump with skulk attached to you). This would still give the marines that first jump to avoid contact, but once contact has been made you're in for it! This would also get rid of that annoying ###### where you sneak up on a marine all quiet like from behind and bite him in the ass only to have him sail upwards and vanish while you chase your own tail trying to figure out where he landed.
<!--quoteo(post=1931907:date=May 1 2012, 06:28 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ May 1 2012, 06:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You would be right if NS was a game like TF2, where the entire game is solely based around player combat. That's the problem that many people overlook though, is that NS isn't just an FPS. Looking at (and trying to balance the game) through that kind of lens will undoubtedly lead to flawed perceptions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice post, but i think there are a few fundamental misconceptions.
1) I can just as easily quote Flayra as stating a design constraint and goal of NS2 as being first and foremost an FPS over an RTS when it comes down to the tradeoffs. Your example of the skulk being torn to shreds by turrets is a prime example of this and why turrets have always been a 'unfun' problem to the point where they're being redesigned to be effective only in the presence of marine players.
2) RTS and strategy by no means should be interpreted as rulesets that necessarily follow grand overhead philosophy. Strategy doesn't mean that rules are only one dimensional and hardfast like simple card game mechanics i.e. my 10 attack points beats your 5 defense points thus i win. This kind of thinking really isn't good for games that strive to have any kind of non-meta player interaction beyond the simple cardgame including those in the strategy genre. I only need to bring up starcraft as a prime example of a successful RTS, the prevalence of micromanagement and the dynamics of terran units for example that use range and mobility to accrue individual discrete advantages (You need to stop lumping everything into this one 'overall advantage'). Instead of being regarded as a scourge to balance, its highly regarded as a praiseworthy skill differentiation that's integral to the game. RTS is an overarching term that can just as easily cover traditional strategy and 'strategy' on a microlevel aka tactics. Moreover, emergent 'strategy' is good for any game that wants to take esport and spectatoring seriously. Its beautiful to watch and partake in.
Taken to the extremes it can result in incredibly 'imbalanced' trades in terms of the macro level strategic inputs and outputs. All of this however is a matter of degree and involves a healthy and reasonable balance between difficulty to execute and reward. You cannot simply eviscerate fundamental dimensions of a game simply because they don't match your narrow interpretation of strategy.
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Moreover, even the 'strategy' aspect you describe in terms of armour and damage upgrades points to the fact that combat unintentionally or not, is not meant to be designed around this strict 2 phase system you describe. Your saying that the macro strategy element allows for a change in marine/skulk dynamics where upgrades affect the changes of marines to win in melee ranges. If this is allowed, then why is the 'micro' aspect which is marine movement strictly not allowed?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Player versus player combat can NOT win you the game in NS. You can have the best skilled FPS players in the world playing on one team, but if they don't understand the strategy elements that underpin the game, they will lose. Every single time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
3) I really feel like i need to call you out on this. Likewise, you can have the best understanding of the strategic elements that underpin the game and have the worst skilled FPS players in the world and still lose! "Every time!" To go back to an RTS such as Starcraft: You can have the best build execution and a perfectly optimised resource, ugprade, army composition game, but if you can't control your army to come out ahead of your opponent by winning engagements it doesn't do you any good either.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is the same mindset that spurred the debate over 'combat' mode in NS1. Some people complained loudly about imbalance back then, but Flayra made it clear that the game is not designed to be balanced for one-on-one combat. The mode was only created to give servers something to use to help 'fill up' the server when only a handful of people were playing. That sentiment still exists today. Could you imagine trying to balance an onos versus a stock marine?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
4) It is a misconception that marine movement is used solely in the realms of 1 v 1 skulk/fade vs marine and is only relevant to rambos. Very wrong. I already described the purposes of marine jumping and dodging in my previous post in as pure a sense as possible. One of them was to buy time and extend or recapture ranged advantages. I had hoped i didnt need to state that this also applies strongly in squad situations. Another is to open lines of fire. Since it seems like people are so took up about immersion, realism, and 'strategic determination', go take a look at the historical <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Zama" target="_blank">Battle of Zama</a> where Roman infantry used mobility to their advantage to counter elephants. Mobility and strategy are not mutually exclusive concepts. No one is talking about balancing onos vs single stock marine.
5) This discussion is about people wanting to nerf <b>currrent marine movement</b>. It serves no purpose to continually link it as being remotely related to NS1 bhop and that history. Perhaps it is not your intention, but it certainly is the intention of others to shutdown spheres of emergent 'strategic' thought (like movement) simply because they don't understand it.
Is this why it feels like we have to 2v1/3v1 skulks in every pub for the last 10 builds? I shouldn't have to go in depth and explain why it's a horrible system, and "travel in groups" is a giant cop-out of an excuse. The skulks can travel in groups too.
No need, elodea just won it.
NS (1 and 2) has always been an FPS first, that's obvious. However, it's more than *JUST* an FPS, and that doesn't seem to be as obvious to some people. (Not directing this at you or anyone in particular, but there are those who look at the game from a strict FPS standpoint, and their opinions are flawed as a result.)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to have the advantage over skulks at range *AND* in melee range. Jumping around repeatedly does that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The claim that some people "want to have the advantage over skulks (...) in melee range" is so patently ridiculous that you should feel ashamed for even posting it. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It's not ridiculous at all. You can't have it both ways. You can't defend practices that do exactly what I describe and then insult me for my remarks.
Why are we having this debate then? Do we all agree that marines should be at a disadvantage when engaged in melee range by a skulk?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just because a "competitive player" happens to disagree with you, doesn't make it a case of "casual versus competitive player". Both casual and competitive players alike want the FPS part of the game to be fun and balanced. Arguing that marines should be able to use movement to their advantage doesn't actually run counter to that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It's *ALWAYS* been a case of casual versus competitive though, and it has been siunce before NS1 released. This is why I have advocated repeatedly that the game should be designed so that it can be 'tweaked' for competitive matches without affecting 'casual' gameplay. However, I digress...
I'm not against marines being able to use certain 'movements' to their advantage, but those movements have to stay in context with the game. There is a reason why aliens can 'bunny hop' (to use the term loosely) and marines can not. It's also why I liked the change which sees aliens no longer able to use ladders.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The nerfs to marine bunnyhopping in the extremely early stages of NS1 were absolutely necessary. Even the most die hard competitive players agreed that it was a necessary change. I don't know who the people you quote as "QQ"ing were, but I've certainly never met them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That doesn't mean they don't exist. Perhaps you don't remember much from 'back in the day', but I sure do. This issue persisted over years.
Let me quote a post (that isn't mine - so that I don't bias my response)...
<!--quoteo(post=1717933:date=Jul 18 2009, 05:02 PM:name=Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot @ Jul 18 2009, 05:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1717933"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--QuoteBegin-'(developers)'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('(developers)')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We haven't decided exactly what's happening here but we can all agree on a few things: Skulks should have skill-based movement and we don't want marines jumping around like crazy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Thank you so very much I agree wholeheartedly.
I'm so happy I'm tearing up because from what I recall at least 1/3 of my time spent on these forums, back in the day, was arguing about Marine bunny hopping with clanners.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Seems I'm not the only one who recalls that. Note that post is from 2009, and had 120 replies. There is also <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=109730" target="_blank">this post</a> from 2010 that has 400 replies. Go back further and you find more and more threads.
<!--QuoteBegin-'Flayra'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('Flayra')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's not an easy balance to achieve, but we do want to make a game that will be both the best competitive game since Starcraft and also one that many people can enjoy casually without being in a clan or an experienced or knowledgeable NS player. That's the goal at least!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I stand behind Flayra's remarks here, as well as the remark that they "don't want marines jumping around like crazy".
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) ... Moreover, even the 'strategy' aspect you describe in terms of armour and damage upgrades points to the fact that combat unintentionally or not, is not meant to be designed around this strict 2 phase system you describe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->While I did (initentionally) oversimplify my remarks, I didn't intend to convey that the combat system is (or should be) that simple.
I suggested that in a melee battle where a skulk ambushes a marine the skulk should win. While a simplistic statement, there are still LOADS of variables that can change the outcome. However, I wasn't suggesting that it should be the ONLY outcome, I was suggesting that it should be the EXPECTED outcome. Is it POSSIBLE that the marine can win the skulk vs. marine battle at melee range? Sure. Should it be PROBABLE that the marine will win the skulk vs. marine battle at melee range? No.
Plenty of factors can and will affect the outcome. The debate is whether the ability of a marine to bang away at their space bar should impact the outcome in their favour.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3) ... you can have the best understanding of the strategic elements that underpin the game and have the worst skilled FPS players in the world and still lose! "Every time!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I totally agree with you here, and I have never suggested otherwise. My point was to underpin the fact that the game isn't a 'two dimenetional' FPS (or RTS) game, it's a 'three dimentional' FPS <b>&</b> RTS game. As such, any team that fails to grasp that important element does so at their own peril.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4) ... I already described the purposes of marine jumping and dodging in my previous post in as pure a sense as possible. One of them was to buy time and extend or recapture ranged advantages.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The problem is that once a skulk is biting at your ass you are<b> out of time</b>. That's the real bottom line here. It's one thing to talk about movement before melee contact is made, but once that contact *IS* made the marine is (and should be) at a disadvantage. If I let a skulk ambush me because I foolishly went off alone, then I shouldn't expect any game mechanic to allow me to 'recapture a range advantage'. The time for that has passed. Marines start with the range advantage, once they lose it they should not be able to regain it since by design the skulk is faster than the marine.
Now this doesn't mean there shouldn't be ways to survive the encounter, but it does mean that a marine shouldn't expect to 'get range' on a skulk that is already in melee range and is biting on their ass.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->5) This discussion is about people wanting to nerf <b>currrent marine movement</b>. It serves no purpose to continually link it as being remotely related to NS1 bhop and that history.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I respectfully disagree. Many of the same points being made here were made back then. However to suggest this is only about "people wanting to nerf currrent marine movement" is too narrow in my opinion. The bigger issue here is balance and gameplay. We're still in a beta, and the game can and will change. Why people object to this discussion is somewhat perplexing. Like the devlopers, I want to see the best game possible delivered when the game is released. I have no prejudices other than to what I feel will best appeal to the public.
However, in the end, the decision still rests with the developers.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The skulks can travel in groups too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sure, but that rarely happens. However, 'wave spawn' may change that.
Sal<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't know if u ever play marine but the odds that u survive a close 1on1 fight whit a skulk are very very slim , jumping and avoiding bites or just making the skulk dizzy is like the first weapon a marine has vs skulks ... then comes luck/aim/com support... u should play marine from time to time to see how frustrating it gets to play vs good skulks ;)
I specialize in alien play but from time to time i go marine and i can honestly say it's no fun at all if u are stuck whit a com that does not support .
Sal<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why exactly are jumping marines a problem for you? You want them to stand still too?
I'm kinda puzzled by this whole thread as i never considered "jumping players" an problem, neither in the original NS nor NS2. To the contrary, jumping had always been an integral part of the games gameplay for me.
Natural Selection has always been an game about "skill based movement", it promotes a Quake style of play that's fast paced and gives the player many options for advanced movement by adapting his movement/playstyle to the enviorment and "quirks" of the engine. And that's a good thing because it adds depth to the game and an "intuitive learning curve" that relates to the overall feel for the engine and game in general. It makes the game feel more responsive and as such more engaging.
It also adds a little bit of verticality to the marine movement that's really required, you don't want to feel glued to the ground when you spent the other half of your gameplay as the very mobile and nimble skulk climbing walls.
Personaly i jump a lot, i haven mouse2 bound to jump in every game i play for that reason.
And as a marine i never really "spam" it, i use it with timing that's mostly based on sound of the skulk movement. I can jump circles around most "torpedo skulks" this way, because they don't aim at marines, they run torwards them and as such will never compensate for the vertical movement of a jump that could happen.
As Kharaa, jumping and evading marines are also more fun to kill and fight with. I don't want a bunch of stationary targets that easily die as soon as i'm close up. Getting close up should be an advantage even more so unnoticed but it shouldn't be an "autowin" regardless of how the other player reacts. Because abilities like walljumping, leap, blink or shadowstep give the kharaa many options to completly negate the marine teams range advantage.
Personally I do miss some bites when marines are moving around like crazy, but I feel like it's my fault or bad performance/collision fault instead of marine jump.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess its some kind of glitch?
I mean i had that situation a lot, marines jumping on and over skulks to escaper their bites.
sometimes the marine jumps on the skulk, while the skulk jumps and the marine double jumps...
xVision's comment is very good, "-Remove ability to fire while jumping" make it way better.
Or a marine jump makes the marine slow for a second, so he can't jump around but jump on objects.
This is not a jump and run game...
<!--quoteo(post=1930679:date=Apr 27 2012, 04:37 PM:name=Corpsey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corpsey @ Apr 27 2012, 04:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930679"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would prefer fire be spread if it came down to this.. there's no reason someone CAN'T jump and press an automatic weapon's trigger.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
there's no reason someone CAN'T pickup two rifles and fire them at once...
This is already in the game.
Yes, we do. The difference lies in the degree of disadvantage. Your interpretation of "a disadvantage" is radically different from the common interpretation of that word, but you seem to ignore that completely while making your arguments. You're content with demonizing everyone who has a less extreme interpretation than yourself, as basically arguing for the marines having an advantage in melee, which is loving ridiculous.
<!--quoteo(post=1932036:date=May 1 2012, 12:52 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ May 1 2012, 12:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The claim that some people "want to have the advantage over skulks (...) in melee range" is so patently ridiculous that you should feel ashamed for even posting it. It's not ridiculous at all. You can't have it both ways. You can't defend practices that do exactly what I describe and then insult me for my remarks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, nobody is defending practices "that do exactly what (you) describe". Even if the marines were rolled back to NS1 style movement mechanics, the skulk would still have a significant advantage in melee.
<!--quoteo(post=1932036:date=May 1 2012, 12:52 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ May 1 2012, 12:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's *ALWAYS* been a case of casual versus competitive though, and it has been siunce before NS1 released. This is why I have advocated repeatedly that the game should be designed so that it can be 'tweaked' for competitive matches without affecting 'casual' gameplay. However, I digress...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It only becomes "a case of casual versus competitive" when people like you start chanting war cries. This thread was moving along nicely without any competitive/casual conniving until you blundered in like a bull in a china shop.
<!--quoteo(post=1932036:date=May 1 2012, 12:52 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ May 1 2012, 12:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seems I'm not the only one who recalls that. Note that post is from 2009, and had 120 replies. There is also <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=109730" target="_blank">this post</a> from 2010 that has 400 replies. Go back further and you find more and more threads.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have no idea what that reply was about, but marine bunnyhopping hasn't been an issue since 2.0 was released, and that was over eight years ago. I played from 1.04 and onwards and I can't remember a single "competitive player" arguing in favor of marines being able to bunnyhop in combat. The bunnyhop discussion threads you refer to are all talking about alien bunnyhopping, which is a different issue altogether.
<!--quoteo(post=1932036:date=May 1 2012, 12:52 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ May 1 2012, 12:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not against marines being able to use certain 'movements' to their advantage, but those movements have to stay in context with the game. There is a reason why aliens can 'bunny hop' (to use the term loosely) and marines can not. It's also why I liked the change which sees aliens no longer able to use ladders.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is something we can agree on. Aliens can't actually bunnyhop in NS2 though, not even when "(using) the term loosely".
As a marine, jumping more than once will get you killed, because you will be jumping on the spot.
As a skulk, charging straight forward like a bull versus a matador will get you killed, because you ran straight forward like a dumb bull.
Move along, nothing to see here
with 'combat ballet' *read, combat jumping*, the marines still have a dodge advantage as WELL as the same consistant damage, since a good FPS player, unlike an actual rifleman, has no disadvantage to shooting that kind of weapon at their feet or in close. the only disadvantage to the marine really at this point is they can be hit back. someone having aim that isn't good enough to keep up is their problem, and not one that the programmers should have to account for. i've seen marine players able to fire with pinpoint acc in close in mid-flight as well as at range, so that is no disadvantage since their dmg output if they hit is not diminished
i myself have trouble seeing the top and bottom of the screen cause of the 'mouth cam', which means that for a good 1/2 second my screen is nothing but the inside of the mouth from the bite. thats a bigger disadvantage than one would think
IMO, if a skulk is in biting range, and has hit at least once, marines should be grounded until a short time has passed, and have to rely on good aim, fast reflexes, circle-strafing skills, and above all THEIR TEAMMATES! the only exception to this would be, i imagine, jetpacks.
in any case, simply 'being able to be hit back' is not an advantage, since a players reflexes can be good enough to match/negate the skulks speed advantage. marines need some kind of penalty, either in accuracy, evasion *either by inhibiting jumping, and/or causing a slow effect*, or damage once their engaged in melee.
on the flipside, at range, if a marine sees a skulk and has good accuracy the skulk should more or less wind up dead if it doesnt think fast, which is already usually the case, particularly if more than 1 marine is present and firing.