How to make a balance change
internetexplorer
Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127255Members
Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127255Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Without making something not fun for players</div><b>In order to make a good 'balance change', you should try to identify what the source of an imbalance is.
If you fail to identify it, it's a good idea to revert the changes you made in your attempt to solve things, then try again.
If you continuously layer on 'fixes' that don't fix anything, you create a mess. You rapidly lose sight of your original goal, which goes unreached.</b>
My example, of course, is the lerk!
Its speed was decreased, ostensibly because it was too dominant, and the root cause appeared to be "the difficulty of killing it." When this didn't do anything (because in the current state of the game, people can't kill slow lerks either), bile bomb was weakened tremendously.
Now, what are we left with? A lerk that doesn't have an overpowered bile bomb (good), but that can't fly effectively (bad). The result? The lerk is still no good in the early game (before bile), and it's no good in the mid-to-late game (because bile isn't an automatic win button any more). Playing the class simply doesn't feel fun, and I can't be effective because the most fundamental, skill-indexed mechanic of the class was harmed in a knee-jerk reaction.
Spikes and flight are the only things about the lerk that have any potential for the long-term at the moment. It's really pathetic how weak and annoying they both are from the point of view of lerk players. Even after reducing the effectiveness of spores and bile (the fisher price crutch mechanics), that's still all the class is really good for.
The path to rehabilitating the lerk is clear - start by returning its speed, and realize that it will be possible to kill it when FPS is raised, input lag is reduced and so on.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><i>Paid for by the committee for never-ending lerk domination</i><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
If you fail to identify it, it's a good idea to revert the changes you made in your attempt to solve things, then try again.
If you continuously layer on 'fixes' that don't fix anything, you create a mess. You rapidly lose sight of your original goal, which goes unreached.</b>
My example, of course, is the lerk!
Its speed was decreased, ostensibly because it was too dominant, and the root cause appeared to be "the difficulty of killing it." When this didn't do anything (because in the current state of the game, people can't kill slow lerks either), bile bomb was weakened tremendously.
Now, what are we left with? A lerk that doesn't have an overpowered bile bomb (good), but that can't fly effectively (bad). The result? The lerk is still no good in the early game (before bile), and it's no good in the mid-to-late game (because bile isn't an automatic win button any more). Playing the class simply doesn't feel fun, and I can't be effective because the most fundamental, skill-indexed mechanic of the class was harmed in a knee-jerk reaction.
Spikes and flight are the only things about the lerk that have any potential for the long-term at the moment. It's really pathetic how weak and annoying they both are from the point of view of lerk players. Even after reducing the effectiveness of spores and bile (the fisher price crutch mechanics), that's still all the class is really good for.
The path to rehabilitating the lerk is clear - start by returning its speed, and realize that it will be possible to kill it when FPS is raised, input lag is reduced and so on.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><i>Paid for by the committee for never-ending lerk domination</i><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Comments
I'm not saying they should not do any balance changes but they should keep them at minimum.
**
Thinking about the lerk I do agree that the speed change was very bad. The lerk needs the speed to be able to use his spore ability, now its simply better to stay far away and use spikes. Spore runs are simply to risky and should be avoided(good marines destroy you even if you do unpredictable circle movements).
The alien team works around mobility, its mobility vs firepower. The aliens wear the marines down with hit and run attacks while the Marines try to push through. Now most of the alien lifeforms have been giving less speed and marine speed has been increased. These changes are causing a lot of minor issues with the game. Lowering base speed of the alien team should be done as little as possible since it's what keeps them alive.
It's pretty obvious aliens' winrate being enormous isn't much of a concern anyway, so why beat around the bush?
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><i>Paid for by the committee for never-ending lerk domination</i><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wouldn't it make more sense to raise it's speed as and when it starts becoming too easy to kill? Rather than raising it to the point where it is incredibly hard to kill and saying 'oh it'll fix itself in a dozen versions or so'.
If anything they should leave max "flapping speed" where it is right now, but increase max "glide speed" back to how it was pre-nerf. Punish the people who don't want to learn how to fly properly and reward those who want to improve.
I can get the reduction of max speed, because it was really easy to glide into a room, cover it in spores, and glide out the other side before marines could even react to you, you just went too fast to be realistically hittable, or even too fast for the marines to realistically react to your presence before you were gone.
I can entirely support a speed reduction, no class should be entirely invincible while doing something effective, but they should get some other benefit to offset it, possibly a health boost so they can fight better.
<b>A slow lerk that can't dodge is a dead lerk</b>
Please revert the slow down while strafing and lerk speed as this was never the issue with the lerk. Bilebomb (which was part of the issue with the lerks) has been given a double nerf so this makes the lerk even more pointless now.
Right now the lerk is not fun to play nor is it worth 30 resources. This is sad as the lerk was really the only fun class movement wise left in the game.
I hope you do plan on making this game actually take skill to be good at right? To me the current set of "balance changes" is just a bunch of band-aids trying to hold together your sinking ship. I just hope that when you do decide to start removing these band-aids (These changes are temporary right????) that you will actually decide to fix the cracks before they become too big and your ship starts to sink.
HAHAHHAa another joke of the week
Keep up the good work, I'm your no.1 fan
Keep up the good work, I'm your no.1 fan<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know, if you posted something constructive about the topic at hand, we could at least have a dialogue.
It's pretty obvious aliens' winrate being enormous isn't much of a concern anyway, so why beat around the bush?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
how is it not a concern, whenever you see newer or potential new players watch the stream they always notice how overpowered aliens are and they are being turned off by the game.
Well...
<!--quoteo(post=1932987:date=May 3 2012, 08:53 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ May 3 2012, 08:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932987"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It begs re-iterating that no upgrade should be mandatory, so while celerity adds to speed, the class should be able to function perfectly fine without it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is very much worth discussing.
If lerks get something that increases their attack speed and energy regen they could be unstoppable mid game
Always remember that as a human being, you are horribly flawed, and that nothing you ever come up with will be universally and objectively "true". These are called opinions.
It is important that you never believe that your opinion is "the right one", to do so is the single most arrogant thing that can be done. Accept that other people do not have the same view of your opinion as you do. The reason for expressing opinions is to learn. Learn about the positive aspects of your opinion, and learn about the negative aspects. Never become defensive, because when you begin to defend your opinion against outside influences, you stop learning. When you do this, it becomes abundantly clear that you have no desire for an objective solution, you care only for the solution <b>you</b> want.
My example, of course, is the original post.
Always remember that as a human being, you are horribly flawed, and that nothing you ever come up with will be universally and objectively "true". These are called opinions.
It is important that you never believe that your opinion is "the right one", to do so is the single most arrogant thing that can be done. Accept that other people do not have the same view of your opinion as you do. The reason for expressing opinions is to learn. Learn about the positive aspects of your opinion, and learn about the negative aspects. Never become defensive, because when you begin to defend your opinion against outside influences, you stop learning. When you do this, it becomes abundantly clear that you have no desire for an objective solution, you care only for the solution <b>you</b> want.
My example, of course, is the original post.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't really want to get into an argument this time despite my post in the changelog thread, but I wanted to say publicly that the way you are responding to and handling the patch changes and players' responses towards them is very commendable, and much better than I could do right now. Keep on keepin' on.
Always remember that as a human being, you are horribly flawed, and that nothing you ever come up with will be universally and objectively "true". These are called opinions.
It is important that you never believe that your opinion is "the right one", to do so is the single most arrogant thing that can be done. Accept that other people do not have the same view of your opinion as you do. The reason for expressing opinions is to learn. Learn about the positive aspects of your opinion, and learn about the negative aspects. Never become defensive, because when you begin to defend your opinion against outside influences, you stop learning. When you do this, it becomes abundantly clear that you have no desire for an objective solution, you care only for the solution <b>you</b> want.
My example, of course, is the original post.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^ THIS!
It's so obvious, but anyway, here are some facts:
<ul><li>humans like to win and to be powerful</li><li>while balancing, you have to tweak some strategies / weapons / whatever down, because it was to powerful</li><li>humans cry, when you take away a beloved power / way to easily win</li></ul>
Anytime some thing gets nerved, there comes the fanboy of this thing and crys, because someone has taken away his toy.
Instead of evaluating over more than a day and trying to adapt to the new situation, he think it's easier to blame someone, for stealing his toy.
I have played lerk so much before the speed nerv. And it was truly way too powerful. Even with the speed nerv now, the marines can't hit me.
And as others have said, thats because of the bad fps and hitreg we encountered. Anyway. The nervs were needed. Adapt and let the devs focus on other, more important things.
Maybe I am misunderstanding the log and correct me if I am wrong, but they did make it now do double damage to armor. It should still chew through the armor on the structure at around the same pace but once it gets down to only health it will go much slower. This would create a need for another lifeform to come in and clean up the building while also giving a bit more time to let the marines try and stop the lerk right before the structure eats it.
This is one of those things I need to try out more but this could actually help the lone lerk soloing the whole marine spawn issue. Though I do generally agree the lerk's speed shouldn't have taken a hit.
I kind of like the idea behind that. I'm not sure if makes sense from intuitiviness viewpoint (experienced NS2 players are already confused apparently) or if it creates too limited area of expertise for lerk, but the basic idea of creating dynamics and interaction with relatively simple rules is something I'd definitely like to see more in NS2.
You probably just have not seeing how effective BB is when used in organized manner, the radius was introduced due arcs being extremely difficult to control and ended up being clumped way too easily.
Certain clan did 5 lerk bilebomb rush, it succeeded despite alien team being completely over run continuously fighting with 0 to 1 functioning rts. 2 of the lerks died before even making to the base, 1 was turned back immediadly and the 3 took down cc despite welders being upgraded, second cc was dropped, build and new starting cc build but RTs easily biled due remaining lerks and the next lerk rush ended the game shortly after.
This is possible because most CC spots have high ceiling, aiming lerk with lmg is difficult and shotgun does little to no damage far away. Needless to say you dont really need 5 lerks to do this, 2 lerks biling the base is enough to force commander to beacon back.
If the game is not balanced on the highest level then its not balanced at all. If there is something that is to powerful in competitive there will be someone to abuse in public. In competitive play everything will be used as effectivly as possible. This is why the game should be balanced around competitive play because its the only way to see where the true balance issues are.
However when making these balance changes they need to be careful not brake the public gameplay. The best way to do that is keep the skill cieling equal between teams. Also they should have very powerful abilities have a high skill cieling or hard to access,.
PS:
This is probably the last forum post I'll make on these forums. So good luck everyone in the future, hopefully the game will turn out to be good.
Edit:
Removed sarcastic comment. Seems it started some misunderstanding and unnecessary flaming.
However when making these balance changes they need to be careful not brake the public gameplay. The best way to do that is keep the skill cieling equal between teams. Also they should have very powerful abilities have a high skill cieling or hard to access,.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Competitive players should play within the rules defined. They create balance by learning how to work within the system. If you give them the ability to affect how that system works as drastically as they are now, you get these massive balance swings we're seeing. A good reason as to why it's bad to balance for competitive players is the lerk. While I am definitely for fixing the lerk, there are some people who are insanely good with it, most who are on "competitive" squads. The result is that the lerk becomes useless in pub games because they are so good with them that they have to reduce it's abilities down to something manageable in competitive play, yet in a pub environment a normal person can't get any use out of them.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But what would I know, I'm just a evil competitive player right? :). At least feels that way after staying on these forums for awhile, the competitive players are chased away because they are apperantly to negative so their points are not valid. It's not like we are trying to help.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't get that feeling really. I think competitive players are listened to far more than they should. Just because we have opposing views does not make your or my point any less valid. I don't think you should take conversations on a forum personally. The aim is to help the devs make a better game, and look at it from all angles. You see the game in a different light because you play it differently than average players, as you're a competitive player. While I think competitive balance definitely needs to be looked at, it shouldn't be the scale in which everything in the game is compared to.
However when making these balance changes they need to be careful not brake the public gameplay. The best way to do that is keep the skill cieling equal between teams. Also they should have very powerful abilities have a high skill cieling or hard to access,.
But what would I know, I'm just a evil competitive player right? :). At least feels that way after staying on these forums for awhile, the competitive players are chased away because they are apperantly to negative so their points are not valid. It's not like we are trying to help.
PS:
This is probably the last forum post I'll make on these forums. So good luck everyone in the future, hopefully the game will turn out to be good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm glad you claim you won't be posting anymore and I hope you live up to your word. As evidenced by the absurd notions that you're perceived as "evil" due to being a self-described "competitive player" and being "chased away", presumably by UWE, you are nothing more than a conspiracy theorist. You believe, among other things, that UWE does not care about the "competitive community", or at the very least does not want individuals to play their game in an organized fashion. You see UWE through rose colored lenses and seemingly dismiss all the efforts they have made to cater directly to competitive players. You ignore the casting Hugh does every weekend, taking time out of his own personal schedule to film chumps like you getting an ego-high from the attention he brings you while dismissing changes to the game that are made in an attempt to please competitive players. You're delusional and want to believe you're being persecuted.
One of the fundamental misapprehensions that serves as a pillar of your "NS2 Balance" group is also a false distinction that reinforces the idea that your goals are unique and inclusive. Namely, you want to improve the games balance, but UWE and non-organized players don't, or don't care - hence the name. Wake up and smell the coffee.
However when making these balance changes they need to be careful not brake the public gameplay. The best way to do that is keep the skill cieling equal between teams. Also they should have very powerful abilities have a high skill cieling or hard to access,.
But what would I know, I'm just a evil competitive player right? :). At least feels that way after staying on these forums for awhile, the competitive players are chased away because they are apperantly to negative so their points are not valid. It's not like we are trying to help.
PS:
This is probably the last forum post I'll make on these forums. So good luck everyone in the future, hopefully the game will turn out to be good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your insightful comments will be missed. Your posts are the ones i enjoy reading even when we dont see eye to eye. Sorry to see you take this route but i completely understand. I wish i could have the same restraint for not posting and just stick to my projects =p See you in the competitive scene, dont let my noobs own you =) I would love to lean on you though for you understanding and knowledge of the game.
One of the fundamental misapprehensions that serves as a pillar of your "NS2 Balance" group is also a false distinction that reinforces the idea that your goals are unique and inclusive. Namely, you want to improve the games balance, but UWE and non-organized players don't, or don't care - hence the name. Wake up and smell the coffee.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He simply said that the game should be balanced for competitive play, because you can never have balance when you start to nerf things because average players can't deal with it.
It will automatically break the balance for players who can.
To balance the pub you need to create a skill scale for alien (abilities) that is similar to the aim of marines.
The recent lerk changes definitely didn't come up because of the comp player base. At the moment you simply cannot spore / bb marines because you just instantly die. The role of the lerk was to gas marines before the skulks / fades come in. Try doing that now, you instantly get focused. When I fly around as a lerk I'm constantly afraid that there could be a marine around the corner -> no fun.
I have no idea what you are reading there.
The reason he won't be posting here any more is not because he shared his opinions, or because UWE is evil and hates competitive players. Its because he became overly abusive towards the developers (see: forum admins) and went off the deep end being mad as heck. Its a shame he could not gather his composure, and express himself in an acceptable manner. He hasn't made a constructive post for days.