<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You probably just have not seeing how effective BB is when used in organized manner, the radius was introduced due arcs being extremely difficult to control and ended up being clumped way too easily.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I never argued the AOE nerf was a bad thing, I even said it was a good change in various threads. (And have suggested it myself last week as a solution to BB being so powerful)That being said, the current damage tables just seem off, and a single lerk now has a hard time to even do some lasting damage if there's any marines in the neighbourhood.
I know it's just a beta, and I realise it will probably be tweaked again next patch, but I'm just saying it's unfortunate these kind of massive knee-jerk balance changes tend to sneak in from time to time.
<!--quoteo(post=1933250:date=May 3 2012, 11:34 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ May 3 2012, 11:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933250"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reason he won't be posting here any more is not because he shared his opinions, or because UWE is evil and hates competitive players. Its because he became overly abusive towards the developers (see: forum admins) and went off the deep end being mad as heck. Its a shame he could not gather his composure, and express himself in an acceptable manner. He hasn't made a constructive post for days.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1932986:date=May 3 2012, 04:50 AM:name=Obraxis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Obraxis @ May 3 2012, 04:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932986"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Celerity is on it's way. When it's in, Lerks will be faster than they were before. So the slowdown makes sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not the right way to design the game. Putting celerity in the game doesn't make lerks faster. It makes celerity lerks faster (which is hilarious when you consider how much more often adrenaline was used than celerity for lerks in NS1, a game where the design of the core gameplay elements wasn't secondary to adding cute minecraft references and shader effects). This is yet another example of someone 'reassuring' me instead of engaging in a real discussion, and frankly I don't understand why you would bother. I made my case in the OP and the burden is on you to talk about that, instead of hypotheticals like celerity. <b>Do you agree or disagree that the approach taken in balancing the lerk has been bad for the game?</b>
<!--quoteo(post=1933060:date=May 3 2012, 09:04 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ May 3 2012, 09:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933060"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->How to have an opinion<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b> Always remember that as a human being, you are horribly flawed, and that nothing you ever come up with will be universally and objectively "true". These are called opinions.
It is important that you never believe that your opinion is "the right one", to do so is the single most arrogant thing that can be done. Accept that other people do not have the same view of your opinion as you do. The reason for expressing opinions is to learn. Learn about the positive aspects of your opinion, and learn about the negative aspects. Never become defensive, because when you begin to defend your opinion against outside influences, you stop learning. When you do this, it becomes abundantly clear that you have no desire for an objective solution, you care only for the solution <b>you</b> want.
My example, of course, is the original post.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem with this is that you're dodging the opportunity to address what I said about the lerk, UWE's approach to balance and so on. Luckily, I didn't write this thread up for you so I'm not going to spend <i>too </i>much more time on this nonsense. I'm not deeply concerned with whether I convince you or any other forum nerd...the goal is to have someone at UWE see the post and come to their senses. If that doesn't happen, the rest is irrelevant.
It's so obvious, but anyway, here are some facts: <ul><li>humans like to win and to be powerful</li><li>while balancing, you have to tweak some strategies / weapons / whatever down, because it was to powerful</li><li>humans cry, when you take away a beloved power / way to easily win</li></ul>
Anytime some thing gets nerved, there comes the fanboy of this thing and crys, because someone has taken away his toy. Instead of evaluating over more than a day and trying to adapt to the new situation, he think it's easier to blame someone, for stealing his toy.
I have played lerk so much before the speed nerv. And it was truly way too powerful. Even with the speed nerv now, the marines can't hit me. And as others have said, thats because of the bad fps and hitreg we encountered. Anyway. The nervs were needed. Adapt and let the devs focus on other, more important things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played lerk before it was ever good, and I loved it then. I love the mechanics of the class. When bile bomb was wildly overpowered, I agreed that it was and I even suggested ways to solve it. In fact, I wrote up<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115937&hl=" target="_blank"> a thread</a> suggesting how to solve core problems like the spore mechanic, many months ago. Some of those ideas are only recently being used (changing shotgun damage model, spore opacity etc). They're ideas that go beyond "making my favourite class fun", reaching right to the core mechanics which are very difficult to balance and result in boring gameplay (for both lerks and their opponents).
I've been at this a lot longer than you might think, and for me it's not about making the lerk powerful because I play it. It's about making the lerk fun because a game that isn't fun (such as NS2) is not worth playing.
Thanks for avoiding discussing the actual topic of the thread like the other guy did, too. Like I said, not posted for you. I hope next time you bring your thinking cap.
<!--quoteo(post=1933113:date=May 3 2012, 12:15 PM:name=Tyrsis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tyrsis @ May 3 2012, 12:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933113"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I personally don't care how competitive teams play the game, as it's a bad example of how things should be balanced. Most of these players are extreme in how they aim or control the map, which never happens in a pub game, and the pub game is how this game will be successful, not competitive play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a topic that comes up a lot, and it's been discussed and ironed out so many times that there's simply no way you're trying to create a reasonable discussion here. Thanks a lot for derailing my thread into a stupid pub vs comp argument because you, like the two people above this, couldn't bring yourself to discuss the actual topic of the thread. The topic did not say anything about comp or pub players. You know it didn't.
<!--quoteo(post=1933180:date=May 3 2012, 03:25 PM:name=Tyrsis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tyrsis @ May 3 2012, 03:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933180"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Competitive players should play within the rules defined. They create balance by learning how to work within the system. If you give them the ability to affect how that system works as drastically as they are now, you get these massive balance swings we're seeing. A good reason as to why it's bad to balance for competitive players is the lerk. While I am definitely for fixing the lerk, there are some people who are insanely good with it, most who are on "competitive" squads. The result is that the lerk becomes useless in pub games because they are so good with them that they have to reduce it's abilities down to something manageable in competitive play, yet in a pub environment a normal person can't get any use out of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your idea that "normal people can't get any use out of" things balanced for competition does not make sense to me. You didn't prove how it's true, and I don't think it is.
You blame 'balance swings' on competitive players being listened to. The topic of the thread is that I believe it is caused by a bad design practice on the part of UWE. I didn't ask what you think, though. In fact nobody did. I posted what I think in the hope that someone would discuss it, instead of blowing a bunch of hot air everywhere to look like a badass gangster philosopher.
Competitive players play the same game pubbers do. If the game is balanced for competition (meaning the abilities grow with the player skill and a few other things), it will also be balanced for pub players. That doesn't mean it will be less fun for pub players, or that they will be totally hopeless. Actually, they should be hopeless if they're being outplayed consistently by people who are "insanely good". It shouldn't be a problem for them if they aren't whiny 6 year olds, though. How often do you play basketball against Michael Jordan? If you got the opportunity to, would you make a fool of yourself by crying about how he beat you and blaming everyone but yourself?
Do you want the game to be designed such that much better players cannot consistently beat much worse players? <b>Yes </b>or <b>No</b>
<!--quoteo(post=1933180:date=May 3 2012, 03:25 PM:name=Tyrsis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tyrsis @ May 3 2012, 03:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933180"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't get that feeling really. I think competitive players are listened to far more than they should. Just because we have opposing views does not make your or my point any less valid. I don't think you should take conversations on a forum personally. The aim is to help the devs make a better game, and look at it from all angles. You see the game in a different light because you play it differently than average players, as you're a competitive player. While I think competitive balance definitely needs to be looked at, it shouldn't be the scale in which everything in the game is compared to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have a conclusion and a premise here, and they're not connected. The fact that we have different views does not mean that the game should not be balanced with competition in mind.
If your skillset is geared toward derailing threads rather than thinking critically, I urge you to get out of my thread.
If you think demonizing competitive or public players is a good idea, I urge you to stop discussing this game and grow up.
<b>Now, since we're already way too far off topic I have a fun challenge:</b> post a video on youtube of yourself succeeding as the lerk in build 207. What 'succeeding' means is completely up to you. Change my mind with Fraps if you can't use words like an adult!
<!--quoteo(post=1933270:date=May 4 2012, 12:32 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 4 2012, 12:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933270"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem with this is that you're dodging the opportunity to address what I said about the lerk, UWE's approach to balance and so on. Luckily, I didn't write this thread up for you so I'm not going to spend <i>too </i>much more time on this nonsense. I'm not deeply concerned with whether I convince you or any other forum nerd...the goal is to have someone at UWE see the post and come to their senses. If that doesn't happen, the rest is irrelevant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this is what it comes down to at the end of the day. You've got a lot of ideas, a lot of opinions, and they are all valid. Of course they're valid, you are a good player, an experienced player, you know what you are talking about. And the opinions are valuable, and UWE know they are, they know that lots of people's opinions are because they scour these forums frequently. The problem is that you wrap these ideas and opinions up in verbal assault and ad hominem attacks.
Read that quote and count how many times you bring up your own (valuable) point of view, and how many times you refer to other points of view negatively. Take those out, and people will be far more willing to listen to and reason with you.
<!--quoteo(post=1933277:date=May 3 2012, 06:44 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ May 3 2012, 06:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933277"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And this is what it comes down to at the end of the day. You've got a lot of ideas, a lot of opinions, and they are all valid. Of course they're valid, you are a good player, an experienced player, you know what you are talking about. And the opinions are valuable, and UWE know they are, they know that lots of people's opinions are because they scour these forums frequently. The problem is that you wrap these ideas and opinions up in verbal assault and ad hominem attacks.
Read that quote and count how many times you bring up your own (valuable) point of view, and how many times you refer to other points of view negatively. Take those out, and people will be far more willing to listen to and reason with you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why do I have to go through a bunch of hoops just to get you to read the OP and respond critically to it?
<b>Do you agree or disagree that the approach to balancing the lerk has put it in a very bad place? Yes or no.</b>
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2012
What imbalanxd says is sooooo accurate/important in *watch this* my opinion. :) You passionate fan, you.
Regarding your topic: While i agree with you regarding the specifics of the lerk changes, and can more than meet your challenge of lerk play (i am always the lerk, comp or pub) i believe a thread like this eventually just becomes a soapbox for those looking for a thread to complain in.
If only you could have a disclaimer at the top of your OP stating something to the effect of "I know that balance will not be 'focused' on until the game is feature complete and therefore my suggestions are for the community and devs alike to take into consideration for future use." Then you'd have less of those particular individuals derailing your thread. Also, if your thread was meant for the devs, why not email them or PM them? As for not wanting to communicate with a PT lead: thats silly.. they have daily, direct communication with the devs and advise them on a range of topics, careful not to dismiss them/us so quickly - we can be a link for you guys... if you follow what Imbalanxd says above. :-D
edit: to answer your question there, in regards to speed, I personally don't think it addressed the problem (which is hitreg, performance, and BB) and therefore is a temp fix.
<!--quoteo(post=1933282:date=May 3 2012, 06:53 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 3 2012, 06:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933282"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->edit: to answer your question there, in regards to speed, I personally don't think it addressed the problem (which is hitreg, performance, and BB) and therefore is a temp fix.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you agree with a design approach that emphasizes 'temp fixes' which lead to other 'temp fixes'? Do you think any good can come of that?
<!--quoteo(post=1933282:date=May 3 2012, 06:53 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 3 2012, 06:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933282"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If only you could have a disclaimer at the top of your OP stating something to the effect of "I know that balance will not be 'focused' on until the game is feature complete and therefore my suggestions are for the community and devs alike to take into consideration for future use."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But I don't know that. In fact, it's blindingly obvious that balance <i>is </i>the focus, and it <i>is </i>ruining the development of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1933282:date=May 3 2012, 06:53 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 3 2012, 06:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933282"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then you'd have less of those particular individuals derailing your thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would also have that if this forum was actually moderated or if players were properly educated about how to take part in a beta.
<!--quoteo(post=1933282:date=May 3 2012, 06:53 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 3 2012, 06:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933282"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, if your thread was meant for the devs, why not email them or PM them? As for not wanting to communicate with a PT lead: thats silly.. they have daily, direct communication with the devs and advise them on a range of topics, careful not to dismiss them/us so quickly - we can be a link for you guys... if you follow what Imbalanxd says above. :-D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I obviously posted it because I wanted to get peoples' opinions on the topic. However, like most threads, it was actually just a platform for other people to talk and be heard. That's my complaint.
The fact that someone feels the need to "be a link" for me is sorta insulting, too. I wouldn't feel comfortable directly telling the developers my ideas as if they're fact, so instead I post them on the forums (again, in the hope that someone actually replies to the ideas in my post instead of being high school debate champions). I'm not infallible, and I love to see the ideas I bring up refined by discussion into better ones. When someone <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=118268&view=findpost&p=1933060" target="_blank">parodies my post</a> instead of actually discussing it, I know that person was not comfortable discussing the topic at hand and I'm okay with telling them that.
I'm not even sure where I claimed I didn't want to communicate with a PT lead. Again, I resent the fact that people have 'rank' in this community and get to make low-effort, useless posts and pass them off as<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=118268&view=findpost&p=1932986" target="_blank"> reassuring</a> or lecturing people who are trying to contribute to the development of the game. I don't look at who someone is on the left side of the screen when I read their post..I just read it. If it sucks, I'll say so.
<!--quoteo(post=1933287:date=May 3 2012, 07:13 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ May 3 2012, 07:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933287"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Adren lerk in NS1? uhhh not most players that i remember... Maybe baddie pubbers that sat in vents and gassed all day.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, admittedly I wasn't a big competitive NS1 player.
In that case..was celerity required for the lerk to be fun in that game? I had fun pubbing and using adrenaline, because I was still able to fly effectively. I don't remember celerity being required for the lerk to fly effectively. I remember that it was good, and obviously better than adrenaline in ways that were important...but the class wasn't garbage without it.
I used it because the speed made you that much harder to hit, never really had energy problems as lerk because it wasnt a flap-fest like ns2 lerk with no energy cost. Adren lerk had its place somewhat as a real pain in the ass for the marines because of gas spam, but wasnt as much fun to play (IMO) as cele lerk.
LOL probably dont wanna ask that question but hey here goes some basics:
Lerk bile bomb will never work as desired, unless performance and hit detection continue to be broken, or it gains some kind of retarted amount of momentum from the lerk so you can spin circles in a doorway and chuck them into the base lol.
Lerk spores could possibly work as is, but honestly they are a frustrating mechanic for both sides, aliens need to use alien vision and marines need to run backwards or try and shoot things they cannot see.
Lerk spikes have really high burst DPS but once your out of energy its just annoying.
As far as changes go: Lerk spikes should just go back to the spike shotgun as a primary to give the lerk some better utility for rts/marines and such. Spores should be changed back to being ranged. and much more see-through. Lerk should then be given umbra back, which blocks 1/3 bullets or offers damage reduction on all bullets (probably better tbh).
All of these changes have been stated many times over so it honestly sounds like a broken record, but the lerk was changed many times in NS1 and it ended up with those skills for a reason, they work best for its role. Unless some drastic changes are made to the lerks role it will always be support/harass early game, and purely support late game.
Bile bomb is really the only skill that I think will never fit the lerk, as it requires it to commit so far into the marine base. The others would probably be able to be made work at an acceptable level with some tweaking.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1932900:date=May 3 2012, 04:16 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 3 2012, 04:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932900"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><i>Paid for by the committee for never-ending lerk domination</i><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good to see that my money are well spent. The speed decrease was a really bad change, instead of "just" making the lerk easier to kill. It almost nullified the usage of spores, as if you're playing against any decent marine, you won't be able to spore him, and escape the room without dieing. How do UWE solve this? INCREASE LERK SPEED BY 15%
invTempestJoin Date: 2003-03-02Member: 14223Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
I think everything boils down to 1 thing - The people who originally played NS1 and have pre-ordered NS2 assumed that the game would be very much like NS1. Seeing the game turn into a watered down version of the original with very few remaining similarities is why there are so many NS1 players (competitive and pubbers) that are very frustrated to see some of these changes being made.
Right now NS2 is not headed the way that I would like and it is apparent this is the same for a lot of people who played NS1. It is fine that the devs want to make a "new" game and all but why do they have to make changes to the game just for the sake of change? Why are they not using more of what made NS1 so fun and enjoyable and tweaking or adding on to that? The fact that NS1 is still being played over 10 years after it was first created is amazing and this goes to show you just how good the mechanics in NS1 were and still are.
On to the topic at hand, it is quite clear that most of these changes are directionless and only serve as a band-aid. The lerk is clearly being balanced for public play and no longer stands a chance in competitive play. I'm waiting to see the matches this weekend to watch the lerks stand no chance against marines that can actually aim.
...and someday someone will realize that spores dropped at point blank can never be 'balanced' in the sense that lerk players can use them effectively against skilled opponents
At this rate, that's going to be long after release!
<!--quoteo(post=1933318:date=May 3 2012, 08:00 PM:name=invTempest)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (invTempest @ May 3 2012, 08:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933318"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think everything boils down to 1 thing - The people who originally played NS1 and have pre-ordered NS2 assumed that the game would be very much like NS1. Seeing the game turn into a watered down version of the original with very few remaining similarities is why there are so many NS1 players (competitive and pubbers) that are very frustrated to see some of these changes being made.
Right now NS2 is not headed the way that I would like and it is apparent this is the same for a lot of people who played NS1. It is fine that the devs want to make a "new" game and all but why do they have to make changes to the game just for the sake of change? Why are they not using more of what made NS1 so fun and enjoyable and tweaking or adding on to that? The fact that NS1 is still being played over 10 years after it was first created is amazing and this goes to show you just how good the mechanics in NS1 were and still are.
On to the topic at hand, it is quite clear that most of these changes are directionless and only serve as a band-aid. The lerk is clearly being balanced for public play and no longer stands a chance in competitive play. I'm waiting to see the matches this weekend to watch the lerks stand no chance against marines that can actually aim.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
can't wait for the giant derail as the forum monsters tell you it can't be like NS1 without giving any reasons why
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2012
*munches on bait* <!--quoteo(post=1933285:date=May 3 2012, 03:02 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 3 2012, 03:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933285"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you agree with a design approach that emphasizes 'temp fixes' which lead to other 'temp fixes'? Do you think any good can come of that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> To appease the vocal and very discontent ones that are paying customers it makes sense in the short term given the impractical nature of the alternative. The idea behind a temp fix is it is just that - temporary. Infestation is a placeholder, as with many other things, its down and dirty and plenty of revisions of it have been done (to use your "other temp fixes" scenario)over the <b>year</b>, but eventually it will be scrapped somewhat. I agree with this approach. p.s. Bicsum put it well here: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118294&view=findpost&p=1933295" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1933295</a>
<i>"But I don't know that. In fact, it's blindingly obvious that balance is the focus, and it is ruining the development of the game."</i> There's been enough quotes from devs that you can find yourself on these forums that says that exact sentence. And assuming what the focus is behind the scenes is just that - assuming.
<i>"I obviously posted it because I wanted to get peoples' opinions on the topic. However, like most threads, it was actually just a platform for other people to talk and be heard. ."</i> Good so we know what not to do in the future. lol
<i>"The fact that someone feels the need to "be a link" for me is sorta insulting, too. I wouldn't feel comfortable directly telling the developers my ideas as if they're fact, so instead I post them on the forums"</i> Well believe it or not people try to help - if that's insulting to you, idk what to tell ya. ::Shrug:: Goodluck i guess.
<i>"Again, I resent the fact that people have 'rank' in this community and get to make low-effort, useless posts and pass them off "</i> Well thats how it is so either deal with it, dont, or join the ranks. PT application is open right now to everyone - come make a difference as long as you can keep in mind what Imbalaxnd said - civility and professionalism is required. So that "if it sucks ill say so" mentality needs to learn a more tactful approach.
On that note i believe you are approaching this in a wrong way. Your thread, i mean. You may not be receiving the responses you want because you are coming off as if you are demanding. You are demanding an answer. You are demanding the response you want. You are providing Yes or No limited answers and then getting upset when people aren't satiating your demands. (not requests, mind you)... You are not a judge, and certainly have no place over anyone here, and you have no leverage, so why act in this way? You can engage others in a discussion that will promote the responses you desire without coming off as a bank robber with hostages.
If your goal is to ask a very direct question to the devs you can email them or PM them. If your goal is to ask the community a question you can start a thread.
Those are your options. Neither one may satiate you, however, for any number of reasons. Any 3rd option might be through a PT, but hey, i know this is for whatever reason insulting to you, so luckily you aren't forced to go this route. :)
The lerk is fine. He was way to powerful before but its very balanced now. Its not perfect but thats what beta is for. I think that the lerk might need little bit more nerf to spike because their damage is so high. They can kill marines so fast without them having any chance. Dragonx, there are much more players playing public than competitive. I just play few times per week and don't want to play 10 hours to learn something just to be able to enjoy the game. I think the UWE team is doing a very good job. Many players already agree that 207 is the most fun patch to play up to date. Finally we got one more whiner of the forums!
<!--QuoteBegin-Hampton+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hampton)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm glad you claim you won't be posting anymore and I hope you live up to your word. As evidenced by the absurd notions that you're perceived as "evil" due to being a self-described "competitive player" and being "chased away", presumably by UWE, you are nothing more than a conspiracy theorist. You believe, among other things, that UWE does not care about the "competitive community", or at the very least does not want individuals to play their game in an organized fashion. You see UWE through rose colored lenses and seemingly dismiss all the efforts they have made to cater directly to competitive players. You ignore the casting Hugh does every weekend, taking time out of his own personal schedule to film chumps like you getting an ego-high from the attention he brings you while dismissing changes to the game that are made in an attempt to please competitive players. You're delusional and want to believe you're being persecuted.
One of the fundamental misapprehensions that serves as a pillar of your "NS2 Balance" group is also a false distinction that reinforces the idea that your goals are unique and inclusive. Namely, you want to improve the games balance, but UWE and non-organized players don't, or don't care - hence the name. Wake up and smell the coffee.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1 to him not posting again. He wanted to control the gamedesign and it could be seen in his design doc. I did not know of any balance group and I would like to know what players are in that group, we should expose these idiots who think they know better than everyone. Many competitive players think they rule the game while the game has much more public players. Imbalanxd makes very good point about him being abusive as well, maybe he was just kicked from forums. I hope we see the other whiners stop posting to.
invTempestJoin Date: 2003-03-02Member: 14223Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1933353:date=May 3 2012, 10:29 PM:name=aldea-queso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aldea-queso @ May 3 2012, 10:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The lerk is fine. He was way to powerful before but its very balanced now. Its not perfect but thats what beta is for. I think that the lerk might need little bit more nerf to spike because their damage is so high. They can kill marines so fast without them having any chance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OMG the lerk is still OP cause he can kill a marine by using tactics. What ever shall we do?!?
Seriously, find something worthwhile to complain about or better yet join the PT group as your attitude seems right up their alley.
<!--quoteo(post=1933353:date=May 3 2012, 10:29 PM:name=aldea-queso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aldea-queso @ May 3 2012, 10:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dragonx, there are much more players playing public than competitive. I just play few times per week and don't want to play 10 hours to learn something just to be able to enjoy the game. I think the UWE team is doing a very good job. Many players already agree that 207 is the most fun patch to play up to date. Finally we got one more whiner of the forums!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So the fact that you only play a couple hours makes you want to dumb the game down for the rest of us who actually want a fun, balanced, skilled game? COD:NS2 incoming!
Actually lets take this a step further and just make it so there are no skills at all to learn in the game and make it so that you don't even need to learn how to aim. Can't call someone an aimbotter if everyone has auto-aim.
Posts like this are just pure crap and this is why the current generation of games are being dumbed down to worthless ######. Everyone doesn't want to take any time to actually get good at a game anymore. Seriously grow up and get some skill. This new care bear generation of players is ruining games for the rest of us. Do us a favor and play COD so you don't have to spend time learning a game.
The fact that people think 207 is the most fun patch yet is beyond astonishing and further shows just how dumb the care bear generation of gamers truly are. They only want equality so they don't get utterly ###### destroyed by someone better than them. Everything that can kill them must be OP cause they were unable to kill it... FFS.
<!--quoteo(post=1933382:date=May 4 2012, 09:14 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ May 4 2012, 09:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933382"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the entertainment value of these constant /meltdowns almost makes me wish they dont fix the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My name is actually xDragon... not dragonx :< Regarding making the game skillful or not you really dont have an option lol. If you leave the aliens as is and actually fix performance and hit detection they will get completely destroyed by good marines. Whats your solution then? Make the cone of fire huge for the lmg and make the shotguns spread hit on your entire screen? Or speed up every alien so average playerrs get destroyed?
I look forward to pubstomping this game should it remain like that.
Comments
I know it's just a beta, and I realise it will probably be tweaked again next patch, but I'm just saying it's unfortunate these kind of massive knee-jerk balance changes tend to sneak in from time to time.
Are we still talking about Grissi?
If so, its starting to get ridiculous in here.
This is not the right way to design the game. Putting celerity in the game doesn't make lerks faster. It makes celerity lerks faster (which is hilarious when you consider how much more often adrenaline was used than celerity for lerks in NS1, a game where the design of the core gameplay elements wasn't secondary to adding cute minecraft references and shader effects). This is yet another example of someone 'reassuring' me instead of engaging in a real discussion, and frankly I don't understand why you would bother. I made my case in the OP and the burden is on you to talk about that, instead of hypotheticals like celerity. <b>Do you agree or disagree that the approach taken in balancing the lerk has been bad for the game?</b>
<!--quoteo(post=1933060:date=May 3 2012, 09:04 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ May 3 2012, 09:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933060"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->How to have an opinion<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
Always remember that as a human being, you are horribly flawed, and that nothing you ever come up with will be universally and objectively "true". These are called opinions.
It is important that you never believe that your opinion is "the right one", to do so is the single most arrogant thing that can be done. Accept that other people do not have the same view of your opinion as you do. The reason for expressing opinions is to learn. Learn about the positive aspects of your opinion, and learn about the negative aspects. Never become defensive, because when you begin to defend your opinion against outside influences, you stop learning. When you do this, it becomes abundantly clear that you have no desire for an objective solution, you care only for the solution <b>you</b> want.
My example, of course, is the original post.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem with this is that you're dodging the opportunity to address what I said about the lerk, UWE's approach to balance and so on. Luckily, I didn't write this thread up for you so I'm not going to spend <i>too </i>much more time on this nonsense. I'm not deeply concerned with whether I convince you or any other forum nerd...the goal is to have someone at UWE see the post and come to their senses. If that doesn't happen, the rest is irrelevant.
<!--quoteo(post=1933072:date=May 3 2012, 09:32 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ May 3 2012, 09:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933072"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->^ THIS!
It's so obvious, but anyway, here are some facts:
<ul><li>humans like to win and to be powerful</li><li>while balancing, you have to tweak some strategies / weapons / whatever down, because it was to powerful</li><li>humans cry, when you take away a beloved power / way to easily win</li></ul>
Anytime some thing gets nerved, there comes the fanboy of this thing and crys, because someone has taken away his toy.
Instead of evaluating over more than a day and trying to adapt to the new situation, he think it's easier to blame someone, for stealing his toy.
I have played lerk so much before the speed nerv. And it was truly way too powerful. Even with the speed nerv now, the marines can't hit me.
And as others have said, thats because of the bad fps and hitreg we encountered. Anyway. The nervs were needed. Adapt and let the devs focus on other, more important things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played lerk before it was ever good, and I loved it then. I love the mechanics of the class. When bile bomb was wildly overpowered, I agreed that it was and I even suggested ways to solve it. In fact, I wrote up<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115937&hl=" target="_blank"> a thread</a> suggesting how to solve core problems like the spore mechanic, many months ago. Some of those ideas are only recently being used (changing shotgun damage model, spore opacity etc). They're ideas that go beyond "making my favourite class fun", reaching right to the core mechanics which are very difficult to balance and result in boring gameplay (for both lerks and their opponents).
I've been at this a lot longer than you might think, and for me it's not about making the lerk powerful because I play it. It's about making the lerk fun because a game that isn't fun (such as NS2) is not worth playing.
Thanks for avoiding discussing the actual topic of the thread like the other guy did, too. Like I said, not posted for you. I hope next time you bring your thinking cap.
<!--quoteo(post=1933113:date=May 3 2012, 12:15 PM:name=Tyrsis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tyrsis @ May 3 2012, 12:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933113"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I personally don't care how competitive teams play the game, as it's a bad example of how things should be balanced. Most of these players are extreme in how they aim or control the map, which never happens in a pub game, and the pub game is how this game will be successful, not competitive play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a topic that comes up a lot, and it's been discussed and ironed out so many times that there's simply no way you're trying to create a reasonable discussion here.
Thanks a lot for derailing my thread into a stupid pub vs comp argument because you, like the two people above this, couldn't bring yourself to discuss the actual topic of the thread. The topic did not say anything about comp or pub players. You know it didn't.
<!--quoteo(post=1933180:date=May 3 2012, 03:25 PM:name=Tyrsis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tyrsis @ May 3 2012, 03:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933180"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Competitive players should play within the rules defined. They create balance by learning how to work within the system. If you give them the ability to affect how that system works as drastically as they are now, you get these massive balance swings we're seeing. A good reason as to why it's bad to balance for competitive players is the lerk. While I am definitely for fixing the lerk, there are some people who are insanely good with it, most who are on "competitive" squads. The result is that the lerk becomes useless in pub games because they are so good with them that they have to reduce it's abilities down to something manageable in competitive play, yet in a pub environment a normal person can't get any use out of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your idea that "normal people can't get any use out of" things balanced for competition does not make sense to me. You didn't prove how it's true, and I don't think it is.
You blame 'balance swings' on competitive players being listened to. The topic of the thread is that I believe it is caused by a bad design practice on the part of UWE. I didn't ask what you think, though. In fact nobody did. I posted what I think in the hope that someone would discuss it, instead of blowing a bunch of hot air everywhere to look like a badass gangster philosopher.
Competitive players play the same game pubbers do. If the game is balanced for competition (meaning the abilities grow with the player skill and a few other things), it will also be balanced for pub players. That doesn't mean it will be less fun for pub players, or that they will be totally hopeless. Actually, they should be hopeless if they're being outplayed consistently by people who are "insanely good". It shouldn't be a problem for them if they aren't whiny 6 year olds, though. How often do you play basketball against Michael Jordan? If you got the opportunity to, would you make a fool of yourself by crying about how he beat you and blaming everyone but yourself?
Do you want the game to be designed such that much better players cannot consistently beat much worse players? <b>Yes </b>or <b>No</b>
<!--quoteo(post=1933180:date=May 3 2012, 03:25 PM:name=Tyrsis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tyrsis @ May 3 2012, 03:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933180"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't get that feeling really. I think competitive players are listened to far more than they should. Just because we have opposing views does not make your or my point any less valid. I don't think you should take conversations on a forum personally. The aim is to help the devs make a better game, and look at it from all angles. You see the game in a different light because you play it differently than average players, as you're a competitive player. While I think competitive balance definitely needs to be looked at, it shouldn't be the scale in which everything in the game is compared to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have a conclusion and a premise here, and they're not connected. The fact that we have different views does not mean that the game should not be balanced with competition in mind.
If your skillset is geared toward derailing threads rather than thinking critically, I urge you to get out of my thread.
If you think demonizing competitive or public players is a good idea, I urge you to stop discussing this game and grow up.
<b>Now, since we're already way too far off topic I have a fun challenge:</b> post a video on youtube of yourself succeeding as the lerk in build 207. What 'succeeding' means is completely up to you. Change my mind with Fraps if you can't use words like an adult!
And this is what it comes down to at the end of the day. You've got a lot of ideas, a lot of opinions, and they are all valid. Of course they're valid, you are a good player, an experienced player, you know what you are talking about. And the opinions are valuable, and UWE know they are, they know that lots of people's opinions are because they scour these forums frequently. The problem is that you wrap these ideas and opinions up in verbal assault and ad hominem attacks.
Read that quote and count how many times you bring up your own (valuable) point of view, and how many times you refer to other points of view negatively. Take those out, and people will be far more willing to listen to and reason with you.
Read that quote and count how many times you bring up your own (valuable) point of view, and how many times you refer to other points of view negatively. Take those out, and people will be far more willing to listen to and reason with you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why do I have to go through a bunch of hoops just to get you to read the OP and respond critically to it?
<b>Do you agree or disagree that the approach to balancing the lerk has put it in a very bad place? Yes or no.</b>
You passionate fan, you.
Regarding your topic: While i agree with you regarding the specifics of the lerk changes, and can more than meet your challenge of lerk play (i am always the lerk, comp or pub) i believe a thread like this eventually just becomes a soapbox for those looking for a thread to complain in.
If only you could have a disclaimer at the top of your OP stating something to the effect of "I know that balance will not be 'focused' on until the game is feature complete and therefore my suggestions are for the community and devs alike to take into consideration for future use." Then you'd have less of those particular individuals derailing your thread.
Also, if your thread was meant for the devs, why not email them or PM them? As for not wanting to communicate with a PT lead: thats silly.. they have daily, direct communication with the devs and advise them on a range of topics, careful not to dismiss them/us so quickly - we can be a link for you guys... if you follow what Imbalanxd says above. :-D
edit: to answer your question there, in regards to speed, I personally don't think it addressed the problem (which is hitreg, performance, and BB) and therefore is a temp fix.
Do you agree with a design approach that emphasizes 'temp fixes' which lead to other 'temp fixes'? Do you think any good can come of that?
<!--quoteo(post=1933282:date=May 3 2012, 06:53 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 3 2012, 06:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933282"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If only you could have a disclaimer at the top of your OP stating something to the effect of "I know that balance will not be 'focused' on until the game is feature complete and therefore my suggestions are for the community and devs alike to take into consideration for future use."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But I don't know that. In fact, it's blindingly obvious that balance <i>is </i>the focus, and it <i>is </i>ruining the development of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1933282:date=May 3 2012, 06:53 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 3 2012, 06:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933282"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then you'd have less of those particular individuals derailing your thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would also have that if this forum was actually moderated or if players were properly educated about how to take part in a beta.
<!--quoteo(post=1933282:date=May 3 2012, 06:53 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 3 2012, 06:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933282"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, if your thread was meant for the devs, why not email them or PM them? As for not wanting to communicate with a PT lead: thats silly.. they have daily, direct communication with the devs and advise them on a range of topics, careful not to dismiss them/us so quickly - we can be a link for you guys... if you follow what Imbalanxd says above. :-D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I obviously posted it because I wanted to get peoples' opinions on the topic. However, like most threads, it was actually just a platform for other people to talk and be heard. That's my complaint.
The fact that someone feels the need to "be a link" for me is sorta insulting, too. I wouldn't feel comfortable directly telling the developers my ideas as if they're fact, so instead I post them on the forums (again, in the hope that someone actually replies to the ideas in my post instead of being high school debate champions). I'm not infallible, and I love to see the ideas I bring up refined by discussion into better ones. When someone <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=118268&view=findpost&p=1933060" target="_blank">parodies my post</a> instead of actually discussing it, I know that person was not comfortable discussing the topic at hand and I'm okay with telling them that.
I'm not even sure where I claimed I didn't want to communicate with a PT lead. Again, I resent the fact that people have 'rank' in this community and get to make low-effort, useless posts and pass them off as<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=118268&view=findpost&p=1932986" target="_blank"> reassuring</a> or lecturing people who are trying to contribute to the development of the game. I don't look at who someone is on the left side of the screen when I read their post..I just read it. If it sucks, I'll say so.
Well, admittedly I wasn't a big competitive NS1 player.
In that case..was celerity required for the lerk to be fun in that game? I had fun pubbing and using adrenaline, because I was still able to fly effectively. I don't remember celerity being required for the lerk to fly effectively. I remember that it was good, and obviously better than adrenaline in ways that were important...but the class wasn't garbage without it.
What do you think of the way the lerk has been balanced in NS2?
Lerk bile bomb will never work as desired, unless performance and hit detection continue to be broken, or it gains some kind of retarted amount of momentum from the lerk so you can spin circles in a doorway and chuck them into the base lol.
Lerk spores could possibly work as is, but honestly they are a frustrating mechanic for both sides, aliens need to use alien vision and marines need to run backwards or try and shoot things they cannot see.
Lerk spikes have really high burst DPS but once your out of energy its just annoying.
As far as changes go:
Lerk spikes should just go back to the spike shotgun as a primary to give the lerk some better utility for rts/marines and such.
Spores should be changed back to being ranged. and much more see-through.
Lerk should then be given umbra back, which blocks 1/3 bullets or offers damage reduction on all bullets (probably better tbh).
All of these changes have been stated many times over so it honestly sounds like a broken record, but the lerk was changed many times in NS1 and it ended up with those skills for a reason, they work best for its role. Unless some drastic changes are made to the lerks role it will always be support/harass early game, and purely support late game.
Bile bomb is really the only skill that I think will never fit the lerk, as it requires it to commit so far into the marine base. The others would probably be able to be made work at an acceptable level with some tweaking.
Good to see that my money are well spent.
The speed decrease was a really bad change, instead of "just" making the lerk easier to kill.
It almost nullified the usage of spores, as if you're playing against any decent marine, you won't be able to spore him, and escape the room without dieing.
How do UWE solve this?
INCREASE LERK SPEED BY 15%
Right now NS2 is not headed the way that I would like and it is apparent this is the same for a lot of people who played NS1. It is fine that the devs want to make a "new" game and all but why do they have to make changes to the game just for the sake of change? Why are they not using more of what made NS1 so fun and enjoyable and tweaking or adding on to that? The fact that NS1 is still being played over 10 years after it was first created is amazing and this goes to show you just how good the mechanics in NS1 were and still are.
On to the topic at hand, it is quite clear that most of these changes are directionless and only serve as a band-aid. The lerk is clearly being balanced for public play and no longer stands a chance in competitive play. I'm waiting to see the matches this weekend to watch the lerks stand no chance against marines that can actually aim.
At this rate, that's going to be long after release!
<!--quoteo(post=1933318:date=May 3 2012, 08:00 PM:name=invTempest)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (invTempest @ May 3 2012, 08:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933318"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think everything boils down to 1 thing - The people who originally played NS1 and have pre-ordered NS2 assumed that the game would be very much like NS1. Seeing the game turn into a watered down version of the original with very few remaining similarities is why there are so many NS1 players (competitive and pubbers) that are very frustrated to see some of these changes being made.
Right now NS2 is not headed the way that I would like and it is apparent this is the same for a lot of people who played NS1. It is fine that the devs want to make a "new" game and all but why do they have to make changes to the game just for the sake of change? Why are they not using more of what made NS1 so fun and enjoyable and tweaking or adding on to that? The fact that NS1 is still being played over 10 years after it was first created is amazing and this goes to show you just how good the mechanics in NS1 were and still are.
On to the topic at hand, it is quite clear that most of these changes are directionless and only serve as a band-aid. The lerk is clearly being balanced for public play and no longer stands a chance in competitive play. I'm waiting to see the matches this weekend to watch the lerks stand no chance against marines that can actually aim.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
can't wait for the giant derail as the forum monsters tell you it can't be like NS1 without giving any reasons why
<!--quoteo(post=1933285:date=May 3 2012, 03:02 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 3 2012, 03:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933285"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you agree with a design approach that emphasizes 'temp fixes' which lead to other 'temp fixes'? Do you think any good can come of that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To appease the vocal and very discontent ones that are paying customers it makes sense in the short term given the impractical nature of the alternative. The idea behind a temp fix is it is just that - temporary. Infestation is a placeholder, as with many other things, its down and dirty and plenty of revisions of it have been done (to use your "other temp fixes" scenario)over the <b>year</b>, but eventually it will be scrapped somewhat. I agree with this approach.
p.s. Bicsum put it well here: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118294&view=findpost&p=1933295" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1933295</a>
<i>"But I don't know that. In fact, it's blindingly obvious that balance is the focus, and it is ruining the development of the game."</i>
There's been enough quotes from devs that you can find yourself on these forums that says that exact sentence.
And assuming what the focus is behind the scenes is just that - assuming.
<i>"I obviously posted it because I wanted to get peoples' opinions on the topic. However, like most threads, it was actually just a platform for other people to talk and be heard. ."</i>
Good so we know what not to do in the future. lol
<i>"The fact that someone feels the need to "be a link" for me is sorta insulting, too. I wouldn't feel comfortable directly telling the developers my ideas as if they're fact, so instead I post them on the forums"</i>
Well believe it or not people try to help - if that's insulting to you, idk what to tell ya. ::Shrug:: Goodluck i guess.
<i>"Again, I resent the fact that people have 'rank' in this community and get to make low-effort, useless posts and pass them off "</i>
Well thats how it is so either deal with it, dont, or join the ranks. PT application is open right now to everyone - come make a difference as long as you can keep in mind what Imbalaxnd said - civility and professionalism is required. So that "if it sucks ill say so" mentality needs to learn a more tactful approach.
On that note i believe you are approaching this in a wrong way. Your thread, i mean.
You may not be receiving the responses you want because you are coming off as if you are demanding. You are demanding an answer. You are demanding the response you want. You are providing Yes or No limited answers and then getting upset when people aren't satiating your demands. (not requests, mind you)...
You are not a judge, and certainly have no place over anyone here, and you have no leverage, so why act in this way? You can engage others in a discussion that will promote the responses you desire without coming off as a bank robber with hostages.
If your goal is to ask a very direct question to the devs you can email them or PM them.
If your goal is to ask the community a question you can start a thread.
Those are your options. Neither one may satiate you, however, for any number of reasons. Any 3rd option might be through a PT, but hey, i know this is for whatever reason insulting to you, so luckily you aren't forced to go this route. :)
The lerk is fine. He was way to powerful before but its very balanced now. Its not perfect but thats what beta is for. I think that the lerk might need little bit more nerf to spike because their damage is so high. They can kill marines so fast without them having any chance.
Dragonx, there are much more players playing public than competitive. I just play few times per week and don't want to play 10 hours to learn something just to be able to enjoy the game. I think the UWE team is doing a very good job. Many players already agree that 207 is the most fun patch to play up to date.
Finally we got one more whiner of the forums!
<!--QuoteBegin-Hampton+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hampton)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm glad you claim you won't be posting anymore and I hope you live up to your word. As evidenced by the absurd notions that you're perceived as "evil" due to being a self-described "competitive player" and being "chased away", presumably by UWE, you are nothing more than a conspiracy theorist. You believe, among other things, that UWE does not care about the "competitive community", or at the very least does not want individuals to play their game in an organized fashion. You see UWE through rose colored lenses and seemingly dismiss all the efforts they have made to cater directly to competitive players. You ignore the casting Hugh does every weekend, taking time out of his own personal schedule to film chumps like you getting an ego-high from the attention he brings you while dismissing changes to the game that are made in an attempt to please competitive players. You're delusional and want to believe you're being persecuted.
One of the fundamental misapprehensions that serves as a pillar of your "NS2 Balance" group is also a false distinction that reinforces the idea that your goals are unique and inclusive. Namely, you want to improve the games balance, but UWE and non-organized players don't, or don't care - hence the name. Wake up and smell the coffee.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 to him not posting again. He wanted to control the gamedesign and it could be seen in his design doc. I did not know of any balance group and I would like to know what players are in that group, we should expose these idiots who think they know better than everyone. Many competitive players think they rule the game while the game has much more public players. Imbalanxd makes very good point about him being abusive as well, maybe he was just kicked from forums. I hope we see the other whiners stop posting to.
OMG the lerk is still OP cause he can kill a marine by using tactics. What ever shall we do?!?
Seriously, find something worthwhile to complain about or better yet join the PT group as your attitude seems right up their alley.
<!--quoteo(post=1933353:date=May 3 2012, 10:29 PM:name=aldea-queso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aldea-queso @ May 3 2012, 10:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dragonx, there are much more players playing public than competitive. I just play few times per week and don't want to play 10 hours to learn something just to be able to enjoy the game. I think the UWE team is doing a very good job. Many players already agree that 207 is the most fun patch to play up to date.
Finally we got one more whiner of the forums!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So the fact that you only play a couple hours makes you want to dumb the game down for the rest of us who actually want a fun, balanced, skilled game? COD:NS2 incoming!
Actually lets take this a step further and just make it so there are no skills at all to learn in the game and make it so that you don't even need to learn how to aim. Can't call someone an aimbotter if everyone has auto-aim.
Posts like this are just pure crap and this is why the current generation of games are being dumbed down to worthless ######. Everyone doesn't want to take any time to actually get good at a game anymore. Seriously grow up and get some skill. This new care bear generation of players is ruining games for the rest of us. Do us a favor and play COD so you don't have to spend time learning a game.
The fact that people think 207 is the most fun patch yet is beyond astonishing and further shows just how dumb the care bear generation of gamers truly are. They only want equality so they don't get utterly ###### destroyed by someone better than them. Everything that can kill them must be OP cause they were unable to kill it... FFS.
Joined: Yesterday, 10:53 PM
lol
Regarding making the game skillful or not you really dont have an option lol. If you leave the aliens as is and actually fix performance and hit detection they will get completely destroyed by good marines. Whats your solution then? Make the cone of fire huge for the lmg and make the shotguns spread hit on your entire screen? Or speed up every alien so average playerrs get destroyed?
I look forward to pubstomping this game should it remain like that.