<!--quoteo(post=1935032:date=May 10 2012, 02:50 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ May 10 2012, 02:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935032"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Two comments from us on this one:
1. Ideally (And I am <i>not saying we are there yet</i>!) any Alien team that can pump out six Onii in a 6v6 has already lost, as they would have sacrificed crucial mid-game life forms to get those Onii. Any marine team that allowed an alien team to win with no mid-game lifeforms deserves to lose.
2. Onos and powernode relationship. Ideally, we want players to win games and not structures. The power nodes provide a great safety valve to keep the game flowing freely - A lock to which the Onos is the key. If marines choose to turtle a base and spam sentry guns, the power node provides away for the Aliens to break through with an Onos and (deservedly) win.
I know I'm simplifying, but that is a rough idea of where we are coming from. There's much to tweak!
Also, this thread got a bit heated earlier - let's keep it cool cucumbers. There's so many good ideas coming out, it's a shame when they get lost in mud slinging!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I get where you are coming from for #1, but I'm not sure how you are going to get there. Right now it doesn't seem like the alien team needs anything between skulk and onos, since skulks+free respawns+eventual onos >= lerk/fade+dying to marines easily+no eventual onos. So basically it seems like it is always a better decision to save for onos, because the other lifeforms die too easily and the onos is NECESSARY at end game.
The biggest problem is the ability of everyone on the alien team to be effective at the game AND go onos simultaneously. In NS1 this was negated by the lack of T-res, but as you have stated, in NS2 you need to create this dynamic in some other way. How are you going to do that?
The other problem is this, and no one is going to like hearing it: you are all playing a beta, and the teams are still feature-incomplete. AFAIK, the exo-suit is the end-game comparable unit to the onos. If it's designed correctly, it should be both almost necessary at the end game.
What do you get when you have one team that has an end-game unit, versus one that doesn't? The one with the end-game should almost always win.
Nerfing the Onos before we get a chance to play it against the exo-suit is a bad idea. It SHOULD seem overpowered right now.
The only thing wrong with the onos is the stomp's spamability. Other than that they're fine. The main issue is the lack of a pres sink for the aliens. They don't need to go gorge, they don't need to buy upgrades (carapace), they don't need to do anything but save for onos. Every single game, in my experience, right now as alien is hold at least 2 harvesters, get carapace, augmentation, go onos, win the game, or get arc rushed/gl rushed, its boring. Onos should be something that is a big moral boaster for the alien team and should be strong as hell, but saving for onos should have its risks, which currently it doesn't because free upgrades and augmentation on stulk is effective enough to hold enough res towers to go onos.
To be honest, this is a result of removing pres cost to upgrades and gorge buildings.
<!--quoteo(post=1935032:date=May 10 2012, 08:50 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ May 10 2012, 08:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935032"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Ideally (And I am <i>not saying we are there yet</i>!) any Alien team that can pump out six Onii in a 6v6 has already lost, as they would have sacrificed crucial mid-game life forms to get those Onii.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Fanatic, I think you finally changed my mind on powernodes with that argument.
They are really redundant with infestation already providing easily defined territorial lines and you can make infested rooms lose power anyways, also with the two sec build time of power nodes I doubt any balance change would even occur. The only problem remaining would be to make it easier to deal with turret farms, ie remote very temp pres costing camo or umbra, or encourage role usage like protecting underbelly of lerk while sporing, so he becomes the turret solution. (the code for this has already been done so it'd be easy to implement.)
As for the old mass tech/life form issue, it will have to be addressed soon. Scalable costs for alien upgrades would really help. but so would very temp casted abilities on yourself. Like maybe upgrades aren't passive but rather toggled when needed and costing pres every use? Would REALLY solve mass tech and raise the skill ceiling imo. (having an upgrade/special button wouldn't be too annoying to have. Consider the manual spinning of the heavy's mini gun - every class has a special button.) Lerk spending 1 pres for 20 seconds of carapace would still be worth it I think. I'd do it. Casting buffs fits alien theme too!
I'm still baffled that people are seriously suggesting having abilities cost pres per use. That's like the biggest band-aid suggestion I've ever heard. Instead of finding a solution for the removal of the Alien resource sink, lets just have abilities suck up your res!
Sorry to hear yoru concerns Master Blaster. Fortunately I was one of the ONOS that played during the game that ended up as Aliens winning and have to agree with Master Blaster that Onos is OP. It was a coordinated attack to be sure but the teams were stacked as well. He did keep us limited to our resources to a point the aliens saved enough to dish out an ONOS rush and we all commnicated to go for the power node right away.
Master is a good comm, i've played with him and i'll give him credit for that. Everytime I comm, its not just the skills of the commander but the team as well and i'm afraid to say the team was stacked with some good alien players this time around.
I keep reminding myself that beta is beta, we play a game with variable factors. I believe the DEVS have so far made this game enjoyable , re-playable, and are continously addressing the concerns that needs to be addressed.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1935201:date=May 10 2012, 11:23 AM:name=Unknown_Soldier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unknown_Soldier @ May 10 2012, 11:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935201"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm still baffled that people are seriously suggesting having abilities cost pres per use. That's like the biggest band-aid suggestion I've ever heard. Instead of finding a solution for the removal of the Alien resource sink, lets just have abilities suck up your res!
How would Marines feel if each bullet cost $0.25?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok then whats your proposed solution to mass tech?? Also, i was not referring to weapon or ability use, was I? Upgrades. They do cost tres and pres already for marines.
Also to everyone on these forums: try to refrain from using the term band aid for every single suggested fix. If it fixes the problem without having to modify core elements and entire reworking of the structure, thats not always a negative thing. I never heard anyone call cysts a band aid, despite their implementation following what I just mentioned, and even IF someone has, its obviously worked out just fine, hasn't it?
<!--quoteo(post=1934954:date=May 9 2012, 09:12 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ May 9 2012, 09:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934954"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If they made an alien life form that was twice as powerful as the Onos in every respect, but it required that you be at 100 pRes for 20 consecutive minutes in order to evolve into one, when people saw it they would still scream imbalance.
I think UWE should ignore the COD kiddies that can't see past their own personal experienced in a game. Just my personal opinion though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed I still think jetpacks are a beautiful under rated counter. Its not impossible with a jetpack to as a single marine keep an onos on the run (which I have done). Whats extremely beatiful to is that if you mess up, another jetpack only cost 10 pRes
Dirt cheap When you have 4 Onos in your base and you only got 3 gun turrets up and the ONOS just all snuck in on you and go straight for your power while your arcs are anniallating the nemy bases and for some reason your commander recycled your other base without building another one.. well then you might be in trouble.
<!--quoteo(post=1935266:date=May 10 2012, 02:55 PM:name=stryker_montgomery)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stryker_montgomery @ May 10 2012, 02:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Agreed I still think jetpacks are a beautiful under rated counter. Its not impossible with a jetpack to as a single marine keep an onos on the run (which I have done). Whats extremely beatiful to is that if you mess up, another jetpack only cost 10 pRes
Dirt cheap When you have 4 Onos in your base and you only got 3 gun turrets up and the ONOS just all snuck in on you and go straight for your power while your arcs are anniallating the nemy bases and for some reason your commander recycled your other base without building another one.. well then you might be in trouble.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If jetpacks actually countered Onos then you would see about 80% of your games have jetpacks by the time Onos are on the field. I don't know how new you are or if you comm'd, but jetpacks are a heft investment in tres and often not that useful because of their less than mediocre quality.
Might cost a lot, but I have seen a single JP/FT stop an Onos rush before. Onos ran in, were stomping and what not, suddenly you notice that they're all running around not actually doing anything and here's this hero JP/FT flying around keeping them on fire.
FT are constantly bashed and called useless, but they are hands down the best counter to Onos (Onos have no escape mechanism without a decent chunk of energy). People who don't play Onos don't realize that if you run out of energy you're basically a free kill.
<!--quoteo(post=1935312:date=May 10 2012, 05:14 PM:name=Unknown_Soldier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unknown_Soldier @ May 10 2012, 05:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935312"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Might cost a lot, but I have seen a single JP/FT stop an Onos rush before. Onos ran in, were stomping and what not, suddenly you notice that they're all running around not actually doing anything and here's this hero JP/FT flying around keeping them on fire.
FT are constantly bashed and called useless, but they are hands down the best counter to Onos (Onos have no escape mechanism without a decent chunk of energy). People who don't play Onos don't realize that if you run out of energy you're basically a free kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think the reason people bash them is cause they can't do anything on their own and require a jetpack to maintain even a moderate efficiency. Not to mention a jetpack + a flamethrower costs <b>40 PRES</b>. Don't forget thats also 30 tres to research at the advanced armory for whatever reason that the marine deathmachine needs to be the most expensive weapon to research and buy.
Having a powernode knocked out of commission should not make marine structures go offline. It should slow down research, production, respawning, producing resources and make sentries take long to acquire targets and have a slower rate of fire.
The incentive is to protect the 'node but if it is lost due to whatever reason then the marine team is not crippled until power is restored.
If the devs wish to keep it as is then a similar ideology should be applied to alien structures. That is to say, if there isn't a cyst within 'x' range then the structure slows down.
Can't have one side effected so profoundly by something and the other side doesn't have a similar achilles heel.
Then again, once Exo suits are in it will change gameplay and something else will require balancing. Probably something on the alien's side that will get destroyed when 6 exo's walk into a hive.
What if instead of nodes in every room there was one central location that the marines had to hold that would power the map. The marines could start with a power pack or two, preventing an early rush.
In turn this would then: - slow marine progression because they would have to move to a central location first. (and also would promote teamwork because most of the team would go there) - allow skulks to be stealthy and ambush better, as apposed to the wall bounce craziness that they must rely on now. - Finally, cosmetically I really just don't like having a hive with power. Walking into a dark, wet, living hive is way more atmospheric.
This game has such potential and so many blaring mistakes are holding it back. GET RID OF POWER NODES. They ruin the game. Long fought games feel cheaply won when you much one lightly armored structure and win.
I can't seem to quit totally. I actually ENJOY playing this game in its unfinished state except end game. If Marines are going to turtle, then they are going to turtle. There doesnt need to be a stupid mechanic to prevent this. Just the shear fact alien have complete map domination SHOULD BE ENOUGH. Everyone sees it but the immersion Fan Boys. The glorified light switch will get old fast and when it does everyone will look back and say wtf were we thinking. This single mechanic arguably ruins the ENTIRE GAME. Win buttons are for noobs and designers who cant think of anything better a.k.a. <b>A COP OUT</b>.
<!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->STOP RUINING THE GAME UWE.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<b>Someone create a mod that removes them and we can fracture the community in protest until they change it. I would play the mod even with all the other problems there are, but at least we would have good games.</b>
one day i will actually be able to quit. This is reminding me of my WoW relationship lol. (I only come back because there is nothing better, not because of quality of the game.)
Power nodes right now are literally the only thing preventing 60 minute turtle games like we were having a patch or three ago. As not-fun as games can turn out now for Marines, it was even worse when Aliens would have Marines confined to their base for 60 minutes only to have Marines push back and win with full upgrades because the Alien late-game is pitiful.
Maybe third hive abilities would solve that issue, in which case yes I could agree with power nodes being unwanted.
<!--quoteo(post=1935203:date=May 10 2012, 10:36 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 10 2012, 10:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935203"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok then whats your proposed solution to mass tech?? Also, i was not referring to weapon or ability use, was I? Upgrades. They do cost tres and pres already for marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Currently only way to stop the inevitable charge of the Onosbrigade is to kill all alien hives. Onos does not require teamres to be spent except for evolutions and augmentation, which only make it even better killing machine. Which means that the marine team has no real effective way of stopping appearance of Onos whereas the alien team can always attempt to raid the marine base for a specific structure.
So how about forcing the aliens to unlock their lifeforms like before, but not from hive. Give khaaraa a structure like Protolab. You'd get fade by researching from regular type and Onos from mature. That way they are tied to Tres which makes tower control important and also gives marines something to try to hit in order to prevent the appearance of Onos.
<!--quoteo(post=1935658:date=May 12 2012, 09:30 AM:name=Maukka)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Maukka @ May 12 2012, 09:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935658"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Currently only way to stop the inevitable charge of the Onosbrigade is to kill all alien hives. Onos does not require teamres to be spent except for evolutions and augmentation, which only make it even better killing machine. Which means that the marine team has no real effective way of stopping appearance of Onos whereas the alien team can always attempt to raid the marine base for a specific structure.
So how about forcing the aliens to unlock their lifeforms like before, but not from hive. Give khaaraa a structure like Protolab. You'd get fade by researching from regular type and Onos from mature. That way they are tied to Tres which makes tower control important and also gives marines something to try to hit in order to prevent the appearance of Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> BUT WHAT ABOUT THE ASYMMETRY D:
Joking. Aliens have no res sinks at all. Researching everything that you need to win a game most of the time (augment + cara) is 20 for crag hive, 20 for carapace, and 25 for augmentation. That's 65 tres. This doesn't include cyst costs or harvester costs, but look at how much crap marines have to buy to reach effective potential:
<!--quoteo(post=1935632:date=May 12 2012, 04:24 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ May 12 2012, 04:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This game has such potential and so many blaring mistakes are holding it back. GET RID OF POWER NODES. They ruin the game. Long fought games feel cheaply won when you much one lightly armored structure and win.
I can't seem to quit totally. I actually ENJOY playing this game in its unfinished state except end game. If Marines are going to turtle, then they are going to turtle. There doesnt need to be a stupid mechanic to prevent this. Just the shear fact alien have complete map domination SHOULD BE ENOUGH. Everyone sees it but the immersion Fan Boys. The glorified light switch will get old fast and when it does everyone will look back and say wtf were we thinking. This single mechanic arguably ruins the ENTIRE GAME. Win buttons are for noobs and designers who cant think of anything better a.k.a. <b>A COP OUT</b>.
<!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->STOP RUINING THE GAME UWE.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<b>Someone create a mod that removes them and we can fracture the community in protest until they change it. I would play the mod even with all the other problems there are, but at least we would have good games.</b>
one day i will actually be able to quit. This is reminding me of my WoW relationship lol. (I only come back because there is nothing better, not because of quality of the game.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i><!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Sentiments contained within this post do not accurately reflect the attitude and opinions of the natural selection 2 community.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></i>
<!--quoteo(post=1935632:date=May 12 2012, 10:24 AM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ May 12 2012, 10:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->STOP RUINING THE GAME UWE.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can we please stop this kind of attitude? It is such a presumptuous me me me me attitude for a community member. It makes me gag. They made the game ... they are building a company ... they care about its success and playability way more than you do or ever will.
I like the fact that when marines are all turtle-rific ... I have an option to choose to change the status of the game. Play aliens more (I play both sides each patch) and you will understand why a huge amount of players will go Onos midgame.
A fade is a fun investment .... but it is not a game changer in everyones hands. A lerk results in a couple harassing flybys ... and a shotgun to the face. An Onos can destroy turrets, power nodes, anything in that forward base. That turret everyone kept dieing under ... gone. That armory that was keeping them full of bullets ... gone. You actually get the feeling you did something awesome with your spawn. (The whole reason you play games)
Before arguing for change it is always best to understand BOTH sides of the problem.
The Problem: from the marines perspective the power node feels like a one button kill for a base. Additionally the Onus seems to be designed to take out this device. Alien Perspective: They are relieved that they have such an option in their repertoire.
The Suggested Solution: Remove Power Nodes or Nerf Onii so all they can do ... is get shot. The problems with the suggested solution: No counter would exist for the turtling strategy. The turtling strategy would become the always used strategy. The game would become boring. Nobody would play the Onus.
<!--quoteo(post=1935666:date=May 12 2012, 09:52 AM:name=kingmob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingmob @ May 12 2012, 09:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935666"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Problem: from the marines perspective the power node feels like a one button kill for a base. Additionally the Onus seems to be designed to take out this device. Alien Perspective: They are relieved that they have such an option in their repertoire.
The Suggested Solution: Remove Power Nodes or Nerf Onii so all they can do ... is get shot. The problems with the suggested solution: No counter would exist for the turtling strategy. The turtling strategy would become the always used strategy. The game would become boring. Nobody would play the Onus.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> "the power node feels like a one button kill for a base". It practically is. Everything but the command chair is unpowered when the node goes down, so explain to me how it doesn't shut down the entire base?
Oh and you wanna know what the counter to turtling is? The face that if marines are turtling it means that they're either
A. Sieging the alien base B. Already lost and just prolonging their death
So in B it's more than likely the lack of an alien coordinated effort to take down everything. Onos stomp disables turrets, Gorges can heal the Onos, Fades kill marines, and Lerks can blind marines, and mess up turrets along the way. So explain to me, why it is so far-fetched, so game-breaking, to make the structure that powers almost everything the marines use, their spawning, their advanced weapons, their armor, their turrets they spent 10 tres on each, explain to me what is so far-fetched about making the structure that powers almost everything the marines use durable? Do aliens have a structure that stops eggs from spawning that doesn't lose the game for them? Hell, you may as well make it gameover for marines when their main power node goes down automatically 90% of the time because they've probably lost.
Oh and no one would play the Onos? Why? Is something unappealing about a life form with a huge AoE disable and high structure damage? Something that can disable phase gates, turrets, everything marines build? Is there another life form that disables them?
<!--quoteo(post=1935662:date=May 12 2012, 01:44 PM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ May 12 2012, 01:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935662"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->BUT WHAT ABOUT THE ASYMMETRY D:
Joking. Aliens have no res sinks at all. Researching everything that you need to win a game most of the time (augment + cara) is 20 for crag hive, 20 for carapace, and 25 for augmentation. That's 65 tres. This doesn't include cyst costs or harvester costs, but look at how much crap marines have to buy to reach effective potential:
Proto Lab: -Jetpacks: 25 Total: 25 (which will immensely with exo)
Observatory: -Phase Tech: 15
Overall Total Research Costs (Not including Robo Factory): 310 TRes
If we include a second shell for regen and the second hive for aliens their total amounts to: 125 TRes
God forbid aliens have to actually spend TRes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Been saying this for a month or two. The entire Alien resource sink was removed from the team and shoved onto the Alien Commander. It has disrupted the entire balance of the game and is the primary reason behind these flavour of the month "x lifeform is OP" threads. No adjusting of the Alien resource pool will fix the problem that Aliens no longer have to spend res, as a team, on upgrade chambers, RTs, or Hives.
<!--quoteo(post=1935684:date=May 12 2012, 08:45 PM:name=Unknown_Soldier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unknown_Soldier @ May 12 2012, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935684"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Been saying this for a month or two. The entire Alien resource sink was removed from the team and shoved onto the Alien Commander. It has disrupted the entire balance of the game and is the primary reason behind these flavour of the month "x lifeform is OP" threads. No adjusting of the Alien resource pool will fix the problem that Aliens no longer have to spend res, as a team, on upgrade chambers, RTs, or Hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not to mention that their entire tech tree is more like a railroad than a tree.
<!--quoteo(post=1935686:date=May 12 2012, 02:51 PM:name=Maukka)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Maukka @ May 12 2012, 02:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not to mention that their entire tech tree is more like a railroad than a tree.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well to be fair Aliens have never had a "tech tree" because the playstyle is different than your normal RTS-esque system. It's less about researching down branches of the tree, and more about choosing x, y, or z as your only tree until you gain a second hive.
<!--quoteo(post=1935687:date=May 12 2012, 08:58 PM:name=Unknown_Soldier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unknown_Soldier @ May 12 2012, 08:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935687"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well to be fair Aliens have never had a "tech tree" because the playstyle is different than your normal RTS-esque system. It's less about researching down branches of the tree, and more about choosing x, y, or z as your only tree until you gain a second hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True but the whole alien team is not what it was in NS1 so same rules no longer can be applied.
<!--quoteo(post=1935689:date=May 12 2012, 03:01 PM:name=Maukka)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Maukka @ May 12 2012, 03:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->True but the whole alien team is not what it was in NS1 so same rules no longer can be applied.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1935690:date=May 12 2012, 09:02 PM:name=Unknown_Soldier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unknown_Soldier @ May 12 2012, 09:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935690"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which is the problem ;3<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well that depends on what the vision for the alien team is, they can either revert back to the old ways or go in all the way. Trying to hold the middleground seems to be hurting the design badly.
And besides, you can keep the teams asymmetrical while still having similiar tech choices/resource systems. Just like Starcraft.
<!--quoteo(post=1935691:date=May 12 2012, 08:05 PM:name=Maukka)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Maukka @ May 12 2012, 08:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935691"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well that depends on what the vision for the alien team is, they can either revert back to the old ways or go in all the way. Trying to hold the middleground seems to be hurting the design badly.
And besides, you can keep the teams asymmetrical while still having similiar tech choices/resource systems. Just like Starcraft.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Starcraft is not assymetric. Strategy games are not assymetric. They can't be.
IMO, Onos destroying power nodes fast is fine for now. Without it, we'd experience those dreaded 1-2 hour turtle games.
However, I am slightly concerned how primal scream will factor in....
Perhaps, as someone has suggested, have the Comm chair provide power to nearby structures? Have this as an upgrade, but limited to IPs (to prevent turret spam+turtling).
Stomp does seem a bit overpowered though. When you have 2 onis working on collaboration, you can really hold off most of the marine team, arcs, phase gates...I think the mechanic is fine, it just needs to <b>cost more energy</b> to make it less spammable.
Comments
1. Ideally (And I am <i>not saying we are there yet</i>!) any Alien team that can pump out six Onii in a 6v6 has already lost, as they would have sacrificed crucial mid-game life forms to get those Onii. Any marine team that allowed an alien team to win with no mid-game lifeforms deserves to lose.
2. Onos and powernode relationship. Ideally, we want players to win games and not structures. The power nodes provide a great safety valve to keep the game flowing freely - A lock to which the Onos is the key. If marines choose to turtle a base and spam sentry guns, the power node provides away for the Aliens to break through with an Onos and (deservedly) win.
I know I'm simplifying, but that is a rough idea of where we are coming from. There's much to tweak!
Also, this thread got a bit heated earlier - let's keep it cool cucumbers. There's so many good ideas coming out, it's a shame when they get lost in mud slinging!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I get where you are coming from for #1, but I'm not sure how you are going to get there. Right now it doesn't seem like the alien team needs anything between skulk and onos, since skulks+free respawns+eventual onos >= lerk/fade+dying to marines easily+no eventual onos. So basically it seems like it is always a better decision to save for onos, because the other lifeforms die too easily and the onos is NECESSARY at end game.
The biggest problem is the ability of everyone on the alien team to be effective at the game AND go onos simultaneously. In NS1 this was negated by the lack of T-res, but as you have stated, in NS2 you need to create this dynamic in some other way. How are you going to do that?
The other problem is this, and no one is going to like hearing it: you are all playing a beta, and the teams are still feature-incomplete. AFAIK, the exo-suit is the end-game comparable unit to the onos. If it's designed correctly, it should be both almost necessary at the end game.
What do you get when you have one team that has an end-game unit, versus one that doesn't? The one with the end-game should almost always win.
Nerfing the Onos before we get a chance to play it against the exo-suit is a bad idea. It SHOULD seem overpowered right now.
To be honest, this is a result of removing pres cost to upgrades and gorge buildings.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/wWzwV.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I am sorry.
They are really redundant with infestation already providing easily defined territorial lines and you can make infested rooms lose power anyways, also with the two sec build time of power nodes I doubt any balance change would even occur.
The only problem remaining would be to make it easier to deal with turret farms, ie remote very temp pres costing camo or umbra, or encourage role usage like protecting underbelly of lerk while sporing, so he becomes the turret solution. (the code for this has already been done so it'd be easy to implement.)
As for the old mass tech/life form issue, it will have to be addressed soon.
Scalable costs for alien upgrades would really help. but so would very temp casted abilities on yourself. Like maybe upgrades aren't passive but rather toggled when needed and costing pres every use? Would REALLY solve mass tech and raise the skill ceiling imo. (having an upgrade/special button wouldn't be too annoying to have. Consider the manual spinning of the heavy's mini gun - every class has a special button.) Lerk spending 1 pres for 20 seconds of carapace would still be worth it I think. I'd do it.
Casting buffs fits alien theme too!
How would Marines feel if each bullet cost $0.25?
Master is a good comm, i've played with him and i'll give him credit for that. Everytime I comm, its not just the skills of the commander but the team as well and i'm afraid to say the team was stacked with some good alien players this time around.
I keep reminding myself that beta is beta, we play a game with variable factors. I believe the DEVS have so far made this game
enjoyable , re-playable, and are continously addressing the concerns that needs to be addressed.
~ LIL PITO.
How would Marines feel if each bullet cost $0.25?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok then whats your proposed solution to mass tech??
Also, i was not referring to weapon or ability use, was I? Upgrades. They do cost tres and pres already for marines.
Also to everyone on these forums: try to refrain from using the term band aid for every single suggested fix. If it fixes the problem without having to modify core elements and entire reworking of the structure, thats not always a negative thing. I never heard anyone call cysts a band aid, despite their implementation following what I just mentioned, and even IF someone has, its obviously worked out just fine, hasn't it?
I think UWE should ignore the COD kiddies that can't see past their own personal experienced in a game. Just my personal opinion though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed I still think jetpacks are a beautiful under rated counter. Its not impossible with a jetpack to as a single marine keep an onos on the run (which I have done). Whats extremely beatiful to is that if you mess up, another jetpack only cost 10 pRes
Dirt cheap When you have 4 Onos in your base and you only got 3 gun turrets up and the ONOS just all snuck in on you and go straight for your power while your arcs are anniallating the nemy bases and for some reason your commander recycled your other base without building another one.. well then you might be in trouble.
It's not clear why they don't cost pres, or why it was changed with the 'new alien tech tree' patch. Too many changes!
Dirt cheap When you have 4 Onos in your base and you only got 3 gun turrets up and the ONOS just all snuck in on you and go straight for your power while your arcs are anniallating the nemy bases and for some reason your commander recycled your other base without building another one.. well then you might be in trouble.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If jetpacks actually countered Onos then you would see about 80% of your games have jetpacks by the time Onos are on the field. I don't know how new you are or if you comm'd, but jetpacks are a heft investment in tres and often not that useful because of their less than mediocre quality.
FT are constantly bashed and called useless, but they are hands down the best counter to Onos (Onos have no escape mechanism without a decent chunk of energy). People who don't play Onos don't realize that if you run out of energy you're basically a free kill.
FT are constantly bashed and called useless, but they are hands down the best counter to Onos (Onos have no escape mechanism without a decent chunk of energy). People who don't play Onos don't realize that if you run out of energy you're basically a free kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the reason people bash them is cause they can't do anything on their own and require a jetpack to maintain even a moderate efficiency. Not to mention a jetpack + a flamethrower costs <b>40 PRES</b>. Don't forget thats also 30 tres to research at the advanced armory for whatever reason that the marine deathmachine needs to be the most expensive weapon to research and buy.
Having a powernode knocked out of commission should not make marine structures go offline. It should slow down research, production, respawning, producing resources and make sentries take long to acquire targets and have a slower rate of fire.
The incentive is to protect the 'node but if it is lost due to whatever reason then the marine team is not crippled until power is restored.
If the devs wish to keep it as is then a similar ideology should be applied to alien structures. That is to say, if there isn't a cyst within 'x' range then the structure slows down.
Can't have one side effected so profoundly by something and the other side doesn't have a similar achilles heel.
Then again, once Exo suits are in it will change gameplay and something else will require balancing. Probably something on the alien's side that will get destroyed when 6 exo's walk into a hive.
In turn this would then:
- slow marine progression because they would have to move to a central location first. (and also would promote teamwork because most of the team would go there)
- allow skulks to be stealthy and ambush better, as apposed to the wall bounce craziness that they must rely on now.
- Finally, cosmetically I really just don't like having a hive with power. Walking into a dark, wet, living hive is way more atmospheric.
I can't seem to quit totally. I actually ENJOY playing this game in its unfinished state except end game. If Marines are going to turtle, then they are going to turtle. There doesnt need to be a stupid mechanic to prevent this. Just the shear fact alien have complete map domination SHOULD BE ENOUGH. Everyone sees it but the immersion Fan Boys. The glorified light switch will get old fast and when it does everyone will look back and say wtf were we thinking. This single mechanic arguably ruins the ENTIRE GAME. Win buttons are for noobs and designers who cant think of anything better a.k.a. <b>A COP OUT</b>.
<!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->STOP RUINING THE GAME UWE.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<b>Someone create a mod that removes them and we can fracture the community in protest until they change it. I would play the mod even with all the other problems there are, but at least we would have good games.</b>
one day i will actually be able to quit. This is reminding me of my WoW relationship lol. (I only come back because there is nothing better, not because of quality of the game.)
Power nodes right now are literally the only thing preventing 60 minute turtle games like we were having a patch or three ago. As not-fun as games can turn out now for Marines, it was even worse when Aliens would have Marines confined to their base for 60 minutes only to have Marines push back and win with full upgrades because the Alien late-game is pitiful.
Maybe third hive abilities would solve that issue, in which case yes I could agree with power nodes being unwanted.
Also, i was not referring to weapon or ability use, was I? Upgrades. They do cost tres and pres already for marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Currently only way to stop the inevitable charge of the Onosbrigade is to kill all alien hives. Onos does not require teamres to be spent except for evolutions and augmentation, which only make it even better killing machine. Which means that the marine team has no real effective way of stopping appearance of Onos whereas the alien team can always attempt to raid the marine base for a specific structure.
So how about forcing the aliens to unlock their lifeforms like before, but not from hive. Give khaaraa a structure like Protolab. You'd get fade by researching from regular type and Onos from mature. That way they are tied to Tres which makes tower control important and also gives marines something to try to hit in order to prevent the appearance of Onos.
So how about forcing the aliens to unlock their lifeforms like before, but not from hive. Give khaaraa a structure like Protolab. You'd get fade by researching from regular type and Onos from mature. That way they are tied to Tres which makes tower control important and also gives marines something to try to hit in order to prevent the appearance of Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
BUT WHAT ABOUT THE ASYMMETRY D:
Joking. Aliens have no res sinks at all. Researching everything that you need to win a game most of the time (augment + cara) is 20 for crag hive, 20 for carapace, and 25 for augmentation. That's 65 tres. This doesn't include cyst costs or harvester costs, but look at how much crap marines have to buy to reach effective potential:
Arms Lab:
-Tier 1: 40
-Tier 2: 60
-Tier 3: 80
Total: 180
Armory:
-Shotguns: 15
-Welders: 10
-Mines: 10
-Advanced Armory: 20
-Grenade Launchers: 15
-Flamethrowers: 20
Total: 90
Proto Lab:
-Jetpacks: 25
Total: 25 (which will immensely with exo)
Observatory:
-Phase Tech: 15
Overall Total Research Costs (Not including Robo Factory):
310 TRes
If we include a second shell for regen and the second hive for aliens their total amounts to:
125 TRes
God forbid aliens have to actually spend TRes.
I can't seem to quit totally. I actually ENJOY playing this game in its unfinished state except end game. If Marines are going to turtle, then they are going to turtle. There doesnt need to be a stupid mechanic to prevent this. Just the shear fact alien have complete map domination SHOULD BE ENOUGH. Everyone sees it but the immersion Fan Boys. The glorified light switch will get old fast and when it does everyone will look back and say wtf were we thinking. This single mechanic arguably ruins the ENTIRE GAME. Win buttons are for noobs and designers who cant think of anything better a.k.a. <b>A COP OUT</b>.
<!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->STOP RUINING THE GAME UWE.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<b>Someone create a mod that removes them and we can fracture the community in protest until they change it. I would play the mod even with all the other problems there are, but at least we would have good games.</b>
one day i will actually be able to quit. This is reminding me of my WoW relationship lol. (I only come back because there is nothing better, not because of quality of the game.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i><!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Sentiments contained within this post do not accurately reflect the attitude and opinions of the natural selection 2 community.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></i>
Can we please stop this kind of attitude? It is such a presumptuous me me me me attitude for a community member. It makes me gag.
They made the game ... they are building a company ... they care about its success and playability way more than you do or ever will.
I like the fact that when marines are all turtle-rific ... I have an option to choose to change the status of the game.
Play aliens more (I play both sides each patch) and you will understand why a huge amount of players will go Onos midgame.
A fade is a fun investment .... but it is not a game changer in everyones hands.
A lerk results in a couple harassing flybys ... and a shotgun to the face.
An Onos can destroy turrets, power nodes, anything in that forward base.
That turret everyone kept dieing under ... gone.
That armory that was keeping them full of bullets ... gone.
You actually get the feeling you did something awesome with your spawn. (The whole reason you play games)
Before arguing for change it is always best to understand BOTH sides of the problem.
The Problem: from the marines perspective the power node feels like a one button kill for a base. Additionally the Onus seems to be designed to take out this device.
Alien Perspective: They are relieved that they have such an option in their repertoire.
The Suggested Solution: Remove Power Nodes or Nerf Onii so all they can do ... is get shot.
The problems with the suggested solution: No counter would exist for the turtling strategy. The turtling strategy would become the always used strategy. The game would become boring. Nobody would play the Onus.
Alien Perspective: They are relieved that they have such an option in their repertoire.
The Suggested Solution: Remove Power Nodes or Nerf Onii so all they can do ... is get shot.
The problems with the suggested solution: No counter would exist for the turtling strategy. The turtling strategy would become the always used strategy. The game would become boring. Nobody would play the Onus.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"the power node feels like a one button kill for a base". It practically is. Everything but the command chair is unpowered when the node goes down, so explain to me how it doesn't shut down the entire base?
Oh and you wanna know what the counter to turtling is? The face that if marines are turtling it means that they're either
A. Sieging the alien base
B. Already lost and just prolonging their death
So in B it's more than likely the lack of an alien coordinated effort to take down everything. Onos stomp disables turrets, Gorges can heal the Onos, Fades kill marines, and Lerks can blind marines, and mess up turrets along the way. So explain to me, why it is so far-fetched, so game-breaking, to make the structure that powers almost everything the marines use, their spawning, their advanced weapons, their armor, their turrets they spent 10 tres on each, explain to me what is so far-fetched about making the structure that powers almost everything the marines use durable? Do aliens have a structure that stops eggs from spawning that doesn't lose the game for them? Hell, you may as well make it gameover for marines when their main power node goes down automatically 90% of the time because they've probably lost.
Oh and no one would play the Onos? Why? Is something unappealing about a life form with a huge AoE disable and high structure damage? Something that can disable phase gates, turrets, everything marines build? Is there another life form that disables them?
Joking. Aliens have no res sinks at all. Researching everything that you need to win a game most of the time (augment + cara) is 20 for crag hive, 20 for carapace, and 25 for augmentation. That's 65 tres. This doesn't include cyst costs or harvester costs, but look at how much crap marines have to buy to reach effective potential:
Arms Lab:
-Tier 1: 40
-Tier 2: 60
-Tier 3: 80
Total: 180
Armory:
-Shotguns: 15
-Welders: 10
-Mines: 10
-Advanced Armory: 20
-Grenade Launchers: 15
-Flamethrowers: 20
Total: 90
Proto Lab:
-Jetpacks: 25
Total: 25 (which will immensely with exo)
Observatory:
-Phase Tech: 15
Overall Total Research Costs (Not including Robo Factory):
310 TRes
If we include a second shell for regen and the second hive for aliens their total amounts to:
125 TRes
God forbid aliens have to actually spend TRes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Been saying this for a month or two. The entire Alien resource sink was removed from the team and shoved onto the Alien Commander. It has disrupted the entire balance of the game and is the primary reason behind these flavour of the month "x lifeform is OP" threads. No adjusting of the Alien resource pool will fix the problem that Aliens no longer have to spend res, as a team, on upgrade chambers, RTs, or Hives.
Not to mention that their entire tech tree is more like a railroad than a tree.
Well to be fair Aliens have never had a "tech tree" because the playstyle is different than your normal RTS-esque system. It's less about researching down branches of the tree, and more about choosing x, y, or z as your only tree until you gain a second hive.
True but the whole alien team is not what it was in NS1 so same rules no longer can be applied.
Which is the problem ;3
Well that depends on what the vision for the alien team is, they can either revert back to the old ways or go in all the way. Trying to hold the middleground seems to be hurting the design badly.
And besides, you can keep the teams asymmetrical while still having similiar tech choices/resource systems. Just like Starcraft.
And besides, you can keep the teams asymmetrical while still having similiar tech choices/resource systems. Just like Starcraft.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Starcraft is not assymetric. Strategy games are not assymetric. They can't be.
However, I am slightly concerned how primal scream will factor in....
Perhaps, as someone has suggested, have the Comm chair provide power to nearby structures? Have this as an upgrade, but limited to IPs (to prevent turret spam+turtling).
Stomp does seem a bit overpowered though. When you have 2 onis working on collaboration, you can really hold off most of the marine team, arcs, phase gates...I think the mechanic is fine, it just needs to <b>cost more energy</b> to make it less spammable.