<!--quoteo(post=1935520:date=May 12 2012, 12:28 AM:name=TheIcarusKid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheIcarusKid @ May 12 2012, 12:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935520"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's been a lot of confusion and frustration with the state of the current gorge lately. After playing the 207 gorge for a while I'm starting to understand where UWE is going with and I think it's the right direction. Removing Pres from structures was definitely the right move, as well as having the structures die with the gorge. Now it feels like when you evolve to a gorge, you become both a unit AND a bunch of structures. It's a whole package.
While we're moving in the right direction, we're not there yet, so here's some ideas to help our favorite fatty out:
<ul><li><u><b>Return structure scaling per hive</b></u> <blockquote>Having both structure scaling AND permanence was definitely imbalanced for 206, the age of the hydra. However, now that structures die with the gorge, it wouldn't be unreasonable to have more structures per hive. We already need more incentives to get second and third hives. A smaller scaling would probably be better than just doubling, e.g. 5/8/11 mini-cysts, 3/5/7 hydras, 10/15/20 clogs.</blockquote> </li><li><b><u>Add "kill all structures" command</u></b> <blockquote>With the gorge having a fixed number of hydras that are free, he is constantly on the edge of the cyst chain, helping to hold and expand the front lines. Therefore he constantly needs to be moving his structures as the front lines move back and forth. It is quite annoying to have to go back and find your old hydras (especially when there are other gorges) to recycle them. This is an especially huge problem when you put hydras on ceilings and walls, which is the best place to put them. Ceiling/wall-mounted hydras are one of the best improvements to the gorge since NS1, but now I find myself placing them on the ground just so I don't have to build a clog tower to reach them later. This command should be per type of structure. Also, it would be great to get a way to pick individual hydras off ceilings. </blockquote> </li><li><u><b>Change mini-cysts to new structure type</b></u> <blockquote>Now that gorges have the "portable fortress" role, the idea of the mini-cysts doesn't really fit. When they cost p-res, they were a good way to help the commander out to increase the chain, but they are a bit awkward now. If you help build the chain now and the front line expands, suddenly your cap is reached and you can't place your hydras anymore. Not only would it be difficult to go find your mini-cysts since they look so similar, it would break the chain for your team. We should remove mini-cysts from the chain and make them a different structure completely to emphasize their portability. This would also prevent the annoyance of a gorge dying and a huge hole appearing in the chain for the commander to fix. This new structure should: - Have a different model to make them easy to distinguish - Not contribute to commander cyst chain - Create infestation even when off chain to encourage forward bases </blockquote></li></ul>
Loving the other changes, such as power-building commander structures and maturity.
Other related suggestions: <ul><li><u><b>Increase the difference in model size between newborn and mature structures</b></u> <blockquote>This size difference already adds a "wow factor" to NS2 - like Charlie said, no other RTS uses this idea. Let's emphasize it so we can show this cool idea off, as well as giving more information to both teams about the vulnerability of structures. It'd be great to see the mature structure twice the size of the newborn. </blockquote> </li><li><u><b>Allow abilities to be researched at 50% maturity - increase total maturity time</b></u> <blockquote>Once we have multiple abilities for structures such as the crag and shade, it would be great to see the second level ability purchased at 50% and the third at 100%. I've seen talk about reducing maturity times for certain structures like the whip, but I think a very long maturity time adds a very interesting twist to gameplay. Not only will it increase the importance of nutrient mist, it makes the alien commander role more strategic as placement time now factors in. Please increase maturity times and make HP differences greater to emphasize the importance of this tactic. Slow maturity and misting on whips is the first time I've really felt like a gardener in NS2, which is the goal. </blockquote></li></ul> Thanks for reading!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I added the mod of Bicsum and the post of TheIcarusKid as I know how links deter people from actually reading the interesting contributions.
<!--quoteo(post=1935581:date=May 12 2012, 08:04 AM:name=Raven_XI)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raven_XI @ May 12 2012, 08:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935581"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Very simple things, for instance helping to build res towers and dropping hydras at each one. While this doesn't stop marines being able to take them down, it gains that extra bit of time that can allow back up to come and stop the tower from falling. 1 gorge with a few well placed hydras can delay a marine push very well. Not to mention the forward healer which is great for anyone who lerks or fades with carapace.
I think people just havnt thought enough about hydra placement. For instance, rather than out a hydra up at a point where it gets maximum range to shoot marines, put them at spots so that they just block LMG fire to rt's from far away... Or drop them behind the res tower so the marine can't sit behind it and axe it while looking out for skulls. The average marine will choose to knife where they can't be hit by the hydra, but this leaves them open to an attack as their back faces the entrance of incoming skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interesting point about the hydras, it's something I hadn't thought about with the skulks like that. Thinking of them more in terms of extra time rather then defence is also an interesting point. However, don't you feel that you die to quickly if a marine come by? The healspray is too weak to save you, and the spit does so low damage, and at distance is so easily dodged, that the marine will kill you even if you have placed 3 hydras to shoot him if you fight back. I do get hydra kills too, but that comes when there is skulks and such around, forcing the marines to fight in range of the hydras. Too many times have marines just sprinted past my 3 hydras in places like reactor core to kill me.
Somehow it feels like this is the only thing that adds a slight interest to forward healing too, you want to stay close enough so that you can heal your team-mates quickly but since you are extremely fragile and deal would die an engagement, there is a certain tention where you just wait to retreat as quickly as your short legs and belly can take you. "But your team shou-..." No, a fade with 10-20% health will save his own skin if a marine comes around the corner when you are healing him, and I don't blame them: 10<50. But a single marine should at least have to think twise if he wants to attack a full-health gorge, and ideally not sprint after one if there are hydras on the way and the gorge quickly strafed around the corner.
<b>TheIcarusKid:</b> I agree completely with all of your points. Most of the time you can't even place hydras if you are on the front lines healing, because the kham doesn't push and infestation there and it's too far to even reach it with your 5 mini-cysts, that aren't even available as they have become integrated in the cyst-chain. Same things about clogs, which I feel makes the gorge able to be creative and build his own cover and block paths. Really useful on the front lines, but you can't place them as there is no available infestation.
<b>Bicsum:</b> Why not make the hydras shoot where you spit? I realise that it slightly works against spit, as you would have to lead marines. But quite frankly, most of the times the marines is running straight at you. They may dodge sideways, but I feel tying it too spit would make the most sense; you choose between offensive and spit for more accurate hydras, or defensive and heal with less accurate ones. Although I still feel spit is too weak and would like a stacking DoT component (same total damage unless you get consecutive hits), it makes it more useful. If someone got an idea on how to make such a mod, I'd very much like to try it.
Allow gorges to build creephubs (and put a limit on these too) that allows an independent infestation spread. As an extra it would be nice that a creephub can be upgraded with an ability that reflects the various hives (healing/energy regen/cloaking).
Just my thoughts, I too love the gorge, even with all its current rough edges.
I always saw mini-cysts as something there to assist the commander in expanding. However since the change from energy to res, its not really much help at any point in the game.
Now its only for building on walls, so can build hydras. Its quite a reduction in their importance, and thus the importance of the gorge in general.
Then again, early on people were complaining that the gorge-commander relationship was too strong and lead to marine advantage in small games.
Well, the portability and expendability of hydras is at least a step in the right direction. It's nice to be able to just throw them right in harms way to slow a marine push down, knowing you can instantly rebuild them a bit further down the path. The extra couple of minutes bought by this tactic can save a hive.
Yeah the long throw and being able to destroy your own hydras is a step in the right direction, I still enjoy playing Gorge, but it definitely needs a big improvement. I still think hydras need to be able to be a threat, and not just a laugh and walk past them. It sucks that Gorge has lost his slow down spit, it could have at least been revised and made less slower to marines and not removed all together. Was a good way to defend the hive from distance or get away from marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1936031:date=May 13 2012, 07:13 PM:name=TheIcarusKid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheIcarusKid @ May 13 2012, 07:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936031"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, the hydras in 206 finally had a real threat to them. It's too bad that gorges got nerfed in three entirely different ways in 207. XD<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah no point playing gorge in 207 besides healing.
I used to love having a 1v1 with marines, now that is virtually impossible as Gorge.
If you get caught out by 1 or 2 marines and you have no Hydras set up, you die very quickly.
I think belly slide really needs to be the 'getaway' tool, but it is useless at the moment. Essentially you just slide in a straight line, not very quickly... and marines do not need to aim.
<!--quoteo(post=1936132:date=May 14 2012, 05:28 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ May 14 2012, 05:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936132"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think belly slide really needs to be the 'getaway' tool, but it is useless at the moment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would be awesome for belly slide to pick up some serious speed when going down a ramp or stairs... it could launch the gorge at high speed until he stops sliding.
It would be like sledding!
Not to mention that the physics would make more sense than just boosting the speed of belly slide all the time.
I'm all for belly sliding down ramps being faster, but please make it so that belly slide bounce of walls and gain some speed there too! Would make it more interesting, and the logic behind it would be that the gorge pushes the wall with his feet :D
Idea: Hold the Primary Attack (spit) button down and have the Gorge build up a bigger gob of spit?
The Gorge spit would still function the same way if you tap the Primary Attack button. You would tap for the standard pissweak spit that we currently have for hitting long range targets but you could hold the fire button down for a few seconds and build up a gob of spit then release the button that has the Gorge spew out a large spitball that does more damage but because it's heavier it doesn't travel as far.
so like.. are you guys all fine with gorge getting free buildings and hard caps on their structures now or what? because I still think it's a terrible change and it makes me not even want to play gorge when it was previously my favourite alien class.
I'm not fine with the cap. The fact that they are free however makes the cap bearable. I would much have preferred if instead of free structures and a cap, there would instead be:
a) No cap
b) Structures cost
c) Destroying your structures refund them
d) Structures last until killed regardless of lifeform
e) Scaling cost (for balance)
There are several points about free structures that I think makes them a bad idea, most importantly being that the gorge will get res flooded unless constantly dying. Another thing is that, atleast for hydras, you feel that you need to place all of them, not doing so just makes you worse, there is no choice other then where, but you need them out asap to stall marines. Which brings me to the third point: you don't really care about the hydras anymore. They went from something you build to hold back marines and try to save, to simple delaying the marines. When you lose one, you don't think about it any more then that you need to get there and replace it, if it was in a good spot. I also feel that hydras will never be good as long as they are kept free, because deep down there will always be the argument "they are free" against any decent effect. Think about if the fade was free, but you could only have 3 in your team, then the fade would be balanced against always being there too. Do you think it would be as strong as it is now? I think not, it would be much weaker for just that reason.
So why did UWE make the buildings free? What points did they try to counter with it?
What was mentioned in the Q&A was to prevent larger games from getting flooded in structures since pres scales with amount of players... Waitwhat? As long as you want the same proportion of gorges, there will be the same increase in buildings with the current model. The hardcap stops this being particularly many unless the entire team gorges... But the weak state of the gorge in combat makes that a non-issue. With the old model, twice as many players would mean twice as many structures, but think about this for a second, you also meet twice as many players, making them die atleast twice as fast (splash damage). And in the old model, due to the weakness of hydras in late game, you wouldn't get more oni instead. Three hydras is much better against A0W0 then A3W3 and jetpacks. In the old model you could make more hydras to make up for this fact, in the new you are too good early or too weak late.
Something else I've heard is that free structures makes it so that you aren't "forced" to play gorge for an entire game, due to the reason that to play a gorge optimally, you spent all your pres on structures thus couldn't evolve to something else. Instead you are forced to stay gorge because your structures die if you evolve into something else. Sure, situationally gorging could be an interesting option, but this very implementation makes a dedicated gorge as good or bad the entire game. He will have the same potential by gorging for 1 minute as staying gorge for 60+ minutes. There is no reward for staying gorge with the current model, just a punishment from going away.
Before hydras took a certain time to "accumulate"; if no hydra got killed there would be more and more structures. But the strength of the hydras could be balanced around their cost. The gorge choose to build hydras instead of going another lifeform. Why would this be a problem other then server performance? You might argue that it wasn't a choice to place the hydras, and I would see some merit in that. However, both of those problems would be countered if hydras were implemented as I suggested above. If you wanted to go another lifeform, you could consume your structures to return pres (amount could be balanced). Flooding the map could be balanced around the cost increasing for each built hydra (up to a cap), making them not so cost efficient in late game when pres is also more available.
Playing a gorge right now is a very shallow experience. Spit is mostly useless in direct combat, while it got some use strafe-shooting around a corner before you retreat. You place your hydras and cysts and help speed structure building. Which is annoying too since you run out of adrenaline before even harvesters are completed. After some time you get augmentation and your role changes to standing around the corner and heal the fades that raid some room. Most of the time you can't even place clogs, as infestation is too far back. In TF2 I play much engineer and medic, so it is roles I enjoy playing. There is just so little skill involved in healing with the gorge, the hydras are so weak and you're pretty much useless fighting marines. I'm fine with some aspects being easy or not very strong, as long as there is any real option, any choice of playstyle. Healing is strong, but boring: you don't even see any marines before you have a couple of oni raiding their base and you are safe to run around their feet. But I do it as it really helps the team. Building is fun, but not rewarding. Compare to in TF2 and the L2/3 sentry. If it's placed far away, you can snipe it, while close makes going around the corner very deadly. Placement is everything, and that have some merit in NS too, but from afar hydras are sniped, close they are rushed past. Clogs are a novelty thing, very fun to play around with, but don't see much use as building clever things take much time, where you could just heal the attack instead. Assuming the infestation have reached you anyway. Completing the comparison with TF2 medic and engineer, both of them do decent in direct combat, depending some on what you encounter, and your choice of items. The gorge right now can't even escape a lone marine, much less kill one.
I've been thinking a bit more about changes for the gorge and come up with this:
1) Gorge needs webs again. Cogs aren't useful for blocking corridors. I use them for creating cover. Webs would once again allow gorges to block access.
2) Gorge needs to be able to build harvesters. I say this simply because aliens get res-locked from weak harvesters. Having gorges able to build them would help immensely.
3) Gorge needs a strong escape plan. 2 things here. a) Belly slide needs to be controlled and faster. Perhaps pressing right click while sliding should having the gorge kick for another boost. Constantly clicking will result in maintaining a high speed. b) Powerup spit. I was going to suggest an alternate attack, but UWE are trying to keep 2 per lifeform. Hold right click and release to shoot a strong spit ball that knocks down a marine to the floor - allowing the gorge to escape.
4) Hydras need to cost res again and have no cap. In their current state, 3 hydras is laughable. Keep mini-cysts and cogs free (and capped), but make hydras back as before so that they can adequately defend a position and so gorges can gradually turtle a position. Also prevents gorges from being unable to build due to their 3 hydras being far away.
I really like the idea of the gorge being able to charge up as spit, I'm thinking something like the plasma pistol in halo? I would be hessitant to make it knock down, but how about making it slow, more the longer you have charged? Making it fully charge in about 2 seconds for double damage, a small splash and ~60% slow for a few seconds? Could actually have the gorge form a spit ball on the tongue in whip-style to show the state of the charge...
Just make the projectile bigger and deal more damage (maybe even lose accuracy at longer ranges since it's bigger) the longer you charge it for IMO, that would be pretty fun. That way it'd be like a shotgun up close, if charges for long enough. The gorge definitely needs some love in combat, I wouldn't mind seeing belly slide buffed again a little as well.
I suppose making it bigger and more heavy, making it arc more to the point that it would barely fire would make it balanced even for high damage. Would probably stop marines from trying to axe you too...
I like the idea someone had of spending pres to make hydras permanent allowing him to build more than his cap. (5 pres? maybe 10)
Also i think clogs and mini cysts should cost pres, something like 1 each sounds fair. But gets the hydras for free unless he perma's them. Also increase the limit of hydras to 5 or something.
Also the building spit idea was cool, reminds me of the biogun in unreal tournament <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcPt11qbBE8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcPt11qbBE8</a> -goto 45 seconds
Also current belly slide kinda sucks :/, marines just always sneak up on me somehow in ns2. Not sure what it could be, in ns1 i was always somewhat aware of my surroundings and it hardly ever happen but i dunno wtf is going on.
My thinking was more for defense - knocking a marine back so you can run away. However suppose giving the gorge actual combat ability is always a good thing.
It would be really useful, and so would an effect which made them wander aimlessly for a few seconds. The thing is, many people seem to have an intense dislike for anything that even remotely removes control from your character. I can understand it to some extent; both devour and the gore knockdown effect were annoying when it happened to you, but effects such as the spit slow and the webs are fine too, since one doesn't even take away control, and the other is avoidable.
I liked the gorge a lot before build 206 where stuff cost PR. I found it good way, though some slight chances would been good make it bit more fun.
What I would like to see.
- PR on buildings exception of mini cysts
- Make mini cyst costless but with a cooldown so they cant be spammed, why costless? expanding ground for your commander or team shoulnt not be PR and bothering TR would be to much of hassle with commanders.
- Give gorge whips beside hydra's would make defending arear a lot easier, had times before build 206 (before major chances) made nice defence line on otherside of map to prevent sneaky marines get in only to see them get naded to death because commander dint bothered to listen to made some whips to protect them.
- Maybe or maybe not give them harvesters, or mini harvesters that would cost half, produce half of resources and can be overbuiled by commander costing another half TR of orignal haverster to make it normal one, in this case gorge could go on take some resourses but at half production and commander should complete them to be fully function, might work with maturing, make buildings that gorge make (beside whips and hydra and mini cysts) to not mature, not matured harvesters produce 50% of resourses got 50% of there health and can start mature when commander make it a normal harvester.
also could make the color of mini havesters different for both players view and commanders view so he and players can see there not the same :)
- Make hydra cost 5 PR and whips 10P, I found old 10PR for hydra to much for there preformance, whips are somewhat more usefull because they trow nades back :>
I think this would make gorge fun, more usefull anywhere in the game, either defensive or offensive or recover form losing ground and harvesters by an marine attack.
Current way, costless buildings and limitation removing the fun for me at least with gorge, you just run around puking stuff in onos there asses so they dont die, 5 mini cysts yeah thats gonna help not and 3 hydra that barely hit anything or just dont do much damage but barely see them kill anything.
Whips would be nice purely based on the fact that you could put them in the ceiling. Imagine running into a room as a marine and notice 10 whips clustered in the ceiling. What a sight :D
Of course it would also be really useful and make you able to defend yourself decently. On that front whips are similar to the good ol' OC:s. Having the gorge able to make newborn versions of most structures, excluding hive and upgrades, and let the kham be able to upgrade them to start maturing would be really nice. Maybe half the cost as pres, and then the kham can spend the other half as tres. Might run into balance issues with it though, since it might be better to have a couple of gorges drop everything and the kham upgrade. On second thought, it would make less people up front fighting, so it might be worth the trade... Would add a nice gorge-kham dynamic I think. With that change, I wouldn't mind the gorge as weak in combat as it is now.
I just want to be able to use ninja tactics again. Helping the Khamm expand infestation is fun and all, but Gorge mini-bases are hardly surprising to come up against (obvious Cyst chain is obvious).
Also not sure if it's just me or a bug, but sometimes I can see the Gorge spit fly out of my mouth and aim it good, and sometimes I spit and it's making the action and noise, but I only see the very end of the spit while it landing. It just seems to disappear mid flight sometimes?
Some great discussion going on in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118541&st=0" target="_blank">this</a> thread. I recommend you reading through it, it's a good read :)
This is a post I made regarding the Gorge changes in another thread but nobody really cared so here it is in The Gorge Thread
<!--quoteo(post=1937113:date=May 18 2012, 01:57 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 18 2012, 01:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937113"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They are abilities. The fact that his ability resembles a structure and is stationary does not take away the fact that it is his method of interacting with the world and using the tools given to him. No other class costs pres to use their abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So the "problem" as you describe it, was that the Gorge was somehow too <b>unique</b>, and the "<b>fix</b>" was to simply further homogenize the two teams? Yeah, that sure sounds like a great change. There's not been enough homogenization already.</sarcasm>
<!--quoteo(post=1937113:date=May 18 2012, 01:57 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 18 2012, 01:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937113"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An arms lab is far different from a hydra.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And how different is a pack of Mines? they cost 15 PRes and let you *relatively* secure a location against Skulks, which could be considered a parallele to a vanilla Marine, which is what Hydras were good at denying territory against. Those also cost PRes.
<!--quoteo(post=1937113:date=May 18 2012, 01:57 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 18 2012, 01:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937113"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Costing Pres meant you were always locked into PermaGorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As opposed to now where you are locked in to PermaGorge or your Hydras vanish?
Now you are not only locked in to PermaGorge, but you are also locked to the location where you drop your measely 3 Hydras. Move away from them and you just risk getting killed. Don't even get me started on the clunky/cumbersome way you have to get rid of them to be able to drop them someplace else, it's so counter-intuitive I don't even know where to begin.
Look at a simple scenario that happens during any game, you put some Hydras at the edge of your territory to defend it, your Skulks/other teammates take more territory further up, if you're not at your Hydras already you first have to run back to them, get rid of them, then run to the new territory and re-drop them. With PRes you could steadily drop a new hydra in a new area that you gained ground in quite easily. Was this a bad thing? No, because it was helping your team secure some territory at the cost of your personal PRes, which meant you couldn't *also* soon evolve into a higher lifeform as a tradeoff.
Then there are numerous other core gameplay problems stemming from this change such as all the gorges now having no PRes sinks just sit around at their measely 3 Hydras for 9-10 minutes collecting res to go Fade or Onos, which is boring. It's also just another contributation to the alien "tech explosion" where at a certain point in a game all the aliens evolve Fade and Onos at the same time. Why are they making this "tech explosion" problem even worse? It was already a problem because of Gorges not being <b>required</b> to drop upgrades and RTs and Hives, but now it's just made even worse because the few people that are masochistic enough to play a Gorge in its current state don't spend any PRes at all!
Then there's the hypocrisy of the devs refusing to put a hard cap on things like ARCs and yet they're perfectly fine with doing it for Hydras and Crags.
I fully agree with you paradoxum, I don't get what free hydras are supposed to solve. It is a nice feeling the first few times you lose a hydra, and can just instantly replace it again, but it's not good in the long run. The gorge already had scaling issues in the game; crappy damage, no way to improve healing, the only thing it's useful as. Now it can't even reliably defend anywhere even given long games and efforts. 3 hydras doesn't cut it once marines start to tech up. They will just fire a single grenade in it, or sprint past and kill you. You hoard up on res so you can become a useful life-form instead of playing one you'd like to be useful the entire game.
Comments
<!--quoteo(post=1935520:date=May 12 2012, 12:28 AM:name=TheIcarusKid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheIcarusKid @ May 12 2012, 12:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935520"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's been a lot of confusion and frustration with the state of the current gorge lately. After playing the 207 gorge for a while I'm starting to understand where UWE is going with and I think it's the right direction. Removing Pres from structures was definitely the right move, as well as having the structures die with the gorge. Now it feels like when you evolve to a gorge, you become both a unit AND a bunch of structures. It's a whole package.
While we're moving in the right direction, we're not there yet, so here's some ideas to help our favorite fatty out:
<ul><li><u><b>Return structure scaling per hive</b></u>
<blockquote>Having both structure scaling AND permanence was definitely imbalanced for 206, the age of the hydra. However, now that structures die with the gorge, it wouldn't be unreasonable to have more structures per hive. We already need more incentives to get second and third hives. A smaller scaling would probably be better than just doubling, e.g. 5/8/11 mini-cysts, 3/5/7 hydras, 10/15/20 clogs.</blockquote>
</li><li><b><u>Add "kill all structures" command</u></b>
<blockquote>With the gorge having a fixed number of hydras that are free, he is constantly on the edge of the cyst chain, helping to hold and expand the front lines. Therefore he constantly needs to be moving his structures as the front lines move back and forth. It is quite annoying to have to go back and find your old hydras (especially when there are other gorges) to recycle them. This is an especially huge problem when you put hydras on ceilings and walls, which is the best place to put them. Ceiling/wall-mounted hydras are one of the best improvements to the gorge since NS1, but now I find myself placing them on the ground just so I don't have to build a clog tower to reach them later. This command should be per type of structure. Also, it would be great to get a way to pick individual hydras off ceilings.
</blockquote>
</li><li><u><b>Change mini-cysts to new structure type</b></u>
<blockquote>Now that gorges have the "portable fortress" role, the idea of the mini-cysts doesn't really fit. When they cost p-res, they were a good way to help the commander out to increase the chain, but they are a bit awkward now. If you help build the chain now and the front line expands, suddenly your cap is reached and you can't place your hydras anymore. Not only would it be difficult to go find your mini-cysts since they look so similar, it would break the chain for your team. We should remove mini-cysts from the chain and make them a different structure completely to emphasize their portability. This would also prevent the annoyance of a gorge dying and a huge hole appearing in the chain for the commander to fix. This new structure should:
- Have a different model to make them easy to distinguish
- Not contribute to commander cyst chain
- Create infestation even when off chain to encourage forward bases
</blockquote></li></ul>
Loving the other changes, such as power-building commander structures and maturity.
Other related suggestions:
<ul><li><u><b>Increase the difference in model size between newborn and mature structures</b></u>
<blockquote>This size difference already adds a "wow factor" to NS2 - like Charlie said, no other RTS uses this idea. Let's emphasize it so we can show this cool idea off, as well as giving more information to both teams about the vulnerability of structures. It'd be great to see the mature structure twice the size of the newborn.
</blockquote>
</li><li><u><b>Allow abilities to be researched at 50% maturity - increase total maturity time</b></u>
<blockquote>Once we have multiple abilities for structures such as the crag and shade, it would be great to see the second level ability purchased at 50% and the third at 100%. I've seen talk about reducing maturity times for certain structures like the whip, but I think a very long maturity time adds a very interesting twist to gameplay. Not only will it increase the importance of nutrient mist, it makes the alien commander role more strategic as placement time now factors in. Please increase maturity times and make HP differences greater to emphasize the importance of this tactic. Slow maturity and misting on whips is the first time I've really felt like a gardener in NS2, which is the goal.
</blockquote></li></ul>
Thanks for reading!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1935581:date=May 12 2012, 08:04 AM:name=Raven_XI)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raven_XI @ May 12 2012, 08:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935581"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Very simple things, for instance helping to build res towers and dropping hydras at each one. While this doesn't stop marines being able to take them down, it gains that extra bit of time that can allow back up to come and stop the tower from falling. 1 gorge with a few well placed hydras can delay a marine push very well. Not to mention the forward healer which is great for anyone who lerks or fades with carapace.
I think people just havnt thought enough about hydra placement. For instance, rather than out a hydra up at a point where it gets maximum range to shoot marines, put them at spots so that they just block LMG fire to rt's from far away... Or drop them behind the res tower so the marine can't sit behind it and axe it while looking out for skulls. The average marine will choose to knife where they can't be hit by the hydra, but this leaves them open to an attack as their back faces the entrance of incoming skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interesting point about the hydras, it's something I hadn't thought about with the skulks like that. Thinking of them more in terms of extra time rather then defence is also an interesting point. However, don't you feel that you die to quickly if a marine come by? The healspray is too weak to save you, and the spit does so low damage, and at distance is so easily dodged, that the marine will kill you even if you have placed 3 hydras to shoot him if you fight back. I do get hydra kills too, but that comes when there is skulks and such around, forcing the marines to fight in range of the hydras. Too many times have marines just sprinted past my 3 hydras in places like reactor core to kill me.
Somehow it feels like this is the only thing that adds a slight interest to forward healing too, you want to stay close enough so that you can heal your team-mates quickly but since you are extremely fragile and deal would die an engagement, there is a certain tention where you just wait to retreat as quickly as your short legs and belly can take you. "But your team shou-..." No, a fade with 10-20% health will save his own skin if a marine comes around the corner when you are healing him, and I don't blame them: 10<50. But a single marine should at least have to think twise if he wants to attack a full-health gorge, and ideally not sprint after one if there are hydras on the way and the gorge quickly strafed around the corner.
<b>TheIcarusKid:</b> I agree completely with all of your points. Most of the time you can't even place hydras if you are on the front lines healing, because the kham doesn't push and infestation there and it's too far to even reach it with your 5 mini-cysts, that aren't even available as they have become integrated in the cyst-chain. Same things about clogs, which I feel makes the gorge able to be creative and build his own cover and block paths. Really useful on the front lines, but you can't place them as there is no available infestation.
<b>Bicsum:</b> Why not make the hydras shoot where you spit? I realise that it slightly works against spit, as you would have to lead marines. But quite frankly, most of the times the marines is running straight at you. They may dodge sideways, but I feel tying it too spit would make the most sense; you choose between offensive and spit for more accurate hydras, or defensive and heal with less accurate ones. Although I still feel spit is too weak and would like a stacking DoT component (same total damage unless you get consecutive hits), it makes it more useful. If someone got an idea on how to make such a mod, I'd very much like to try it.
Just my thoughts, I too love the gorge, even with all its current rough edges.
Now its only for building on walls, so can build hydras. Its quite a reduction in their importance, and thus the importance of the gorge in general.
Then again, early on people were complaining that the gorge-commander relationship was too strong and lead to marine advantage in small games.
I still think hydras need to be able to be a threat, and not just a laugh and walk past them.
It sucks that Gorge has lost his slow down spit, it could have at least been revised and made less slower to marines and not removed all together. Was a good way to defend the hive from distance or get away from marines.
Yeah no point playing gorge in 207 besides healing.
If you get caught out by 1 or 2 marines and you have no Hydras set up, you die very quickly.
I think belly slide really needs to be the 'getaway' tool, but it is useless at the moment. Essentially you just slide in a straight line, not very quickly... and marines do not need to aim.
It would be awesome for belly slide to pick up some serious speed when going down a ramp or stairs... it could launch the gorge at high speed until he stops sliding.
It would be like sledding!
Not to mention that the physics would make more sense than just boosting the speed of belly slide all the time.
The Gorge spit would still function the same way if you tap the Primary Attack button. You would tap for the standard pissweak spit that we currently have for hitting long range targets but you could hold the fire button down for a few seconds and build up a gob of spit then release the button that has the Gorge spew out a large spitball that does more damage but because it's heavier it doesn't travel as far.
Why?: Because it craps me to tears that when I want to destroy a marine structure (quickly) as a Gorge, I have to (a) spam the current spit which takes forever (b) Stuff about with a hydra © devolve to a skulk .. all rather counter productive or tedious.
Bile Bomb!!!!: Before anyone says "it sounds like Bile Bomb" let me explain the difference
(a) There is no splash damage
(b) No damage over time
© Lower range than the old Gorge Bile Bomb
(d) Doesn't require aug or upgrades
a) No cap
b) Structures cost
c) Destroying your structures refund them
d) Structures last until killed regardless of lifeform
e) Scaling cost (for balance)
There are several points about free structures that I think makes them a bad idea, most importantly being that the gorge will get res flooded unless constantly dying. Another thing is that, atleast for hydras, you feel that you need to place all of them, not doing so just makes you worse, there is no choice other then where, but you need them out asap to stall marines. Which brings me to the third point: you don't really care about the hydras anymore. They went from something you build to hold back marines and try to save, to simple delaying the marines. When you lose one, you don't think about it any more then that you need to get there and replace it, if it was in a good spot. I also feel that hydras will never be good as long as they are kept free, because deep down there will always be the argument "they are free" against any decent effect. Think about if the fade was free, but you could only have 3 in your team, then the fade would be balanced against always being there too. Do you think it would be as strong as it is now? I think not, it would be much weaker for just that reason.
So why did UWE make the buildings free? What points did they try to counter with it?
What was mentioned in the Q&A was to prevent larger games from getting flooded in structures since pres scales with amount of players... Waitwhat? As long as you want the same proportion of gorges, there will be the same increase in buildings with the current model. The hardcap stops this being particularly many unless the entire team gorges... But the weak state of the gorge in combat makes that a non-issue. With the old model, twice as many players would mean twice as many structures, but think about this for a second, you also meet twice as many players, making them die atleast twice as fast (splash damage). And in the old model, due to the weakness of hydras in late game, you wouldn't get more oni instead. Three hydras is much better against A0W0 then A3W3 and jetpacks. In the old model you could make more hydras to make up for this fact, in the new you are too good early or too weak late.
Something else I've heard is that free structures makes it so that you aren't "forced" to play gorge for an entire game, due to the reason that to play a gorge optimally, you spent all your pres on structures thus couldn't evolve to something else. Instead you are forced to stay gorge because your structures die if you evolve into something else. Sure, situationally gorging could be an interesting option, but this very implementation makes a dedicated gorge as good or bad the entire game. He will have the same potential by gorging for 1 minute as staying gorge for 60+ minutes. There is no reward for staying gorge with the current model, just a punishment from going away.
Before hydras took a certain time to "accumulate"; if no hydra got killed there would be more and more structures. But the strength of the hydras could be balanced around their cost. The gorge choose to build hydras instead of going another lifeform. Why would this be a problem other then server performance? You might argue that it wasn't a choice to place the hydras, and I would see some merit in that. However, both of those problems would be countered if hydras were implemented as I suggested above. If you wanted to go another lifeform, you could consume your structures to return pres (amount could be balanced). Flooding the map could be balanced around the cost increasing for each built hydra (up to a cap), making them not so cost efficient in late game when pres is also more available.
Playing a gorge right now is a very shallow experience. Spit is mostly useless in direct combat, while it got some use strafe-shooting around a corner before you retreat. You place your hydras and cysts and help speed structure building. Which is annoying too since you run out of adrenaline before even harvesters are completed. After some time you get augmentation and your role changes to standing around the corner and heal the fades that raid some room. Most of the time you can't even place clogs, as infestation is too far back. In TF2 I play much engineer and medic, so it is roles I enjoy playing. There is just so little skill involved in healing with the gorge, the hydras are so weak and you're pretty much useless fighting marines. I'm fine with some aspects being easy or not very strong, as long as there is any real option, any choice of playstyle. Healing is strong, but boring: you don't even see any marines before you have a couple of oni raiding their base and you are safe to run around their feet. But I do it as it really helps the team. Building is fun, but not rewarding. Compare to in TF2 and the L2/3 sentry. If it's placed far away, you can snipe it, while close makes going around the corner very deadly. Placement is everything, and that have some merit in NS too, but from afar hydras are sniped, close they are rushed past. Clogs are a novelty thing, very fun to play around with, but don't see much use as building clever things take much time, where you could just heal the attack instead. Assuming the infestation have reached you anyway. Completing the comparison with TF2 medic and engineer, both of them do decent in direct combat, depending some on what you encounter, and your choice of items. The gorge right now can't even escape a lone marine, much less kill one.
1) Gorge needs webs again. Cogs aren't useful for blocking corridors. I use them for creating cover. Webs would once again allow gorges to block access.
2) Gorge needs to be able to build harvesters. I say this simply because aliens get res-locked from weak harvesters. Having gorges able to build them would help immensely.
3) Gorge needs a strong escape plan. 2 things here.
a) Belly slide needs to be controlled and faster. Perhaps pressing right click while sliding should having the gorge kick for another boost. Constantly clicking will result in maintaining a high speed.
b) Powerup spit. I was going to suggest an alternate attack, but UWE are trying to keep 2 per lifeform. Hold right click and release to shoot a strong spit ball that knocks down a marine to the floor - allowing the gorge to escape.
4) Hydras need to cost res again and have no cap. In their current state, 3 hydras is laughable. Keep mini-cysts and cogs free (and capped), but make hydras back as before so that they can adequately defend a position and so gorges can gradually turtle a position. Also prevents gorges from being unable to build due to their 3 hydras being far away.
Also i think clogs and mini cysts should cost pres, something like 1 each sounds fair. But gets the hydras for free unless he perma's them. Also increase the limit of hydras to 5 or something.
Also the building spit idea was cool, reminds me of the biogun in unreal tournament
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcPt11qbBE8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcPt11qbBE8</a> -goto 45 seconds
Also current belly slide kinda sucks :/, marines just always sneak up on me somehow in ns2. Not sure what it could be, in ns1 i was always somewhat aware of my surroundings and it hardly ever happen but i dunno wtf is going on.
I liked the gorge a lot before build 206 where stuff cost PR. I found it good way, though some slight chances would been good make it bit more fun.
What I would like to see.
- PR on buildings exception of mini cysts
- Make mini cyst costless but with a cooldown so they cant be spammed, why costless? expanding ground for your commander or team shoulnt not be PR and bothering TR would be to much of hassle with commanders.
- Give gorge whips beside hydra's would make defending arear a lot easier, had times before build 206 (before major chances) made nice defence line on otherside of map to prevent sneaky marines get in only to see them get naded to death because commander dint bothered to listen to made some whips to protect them.
- Maybe or maybe not give them harvesters, or mini harvesters that would cost half, produce half of resources and can be overbuiled by commander costing another half TR of orignal haverster to make it normal one, in this case gorge could go on take some resourses but at half production and commander should complete them to be fully function, might work with maturing, make buildings that gorge make (beside whips and hydra and mini cysts) to not mature, not matured harvesters produce 50% of resourses got 50% of there health and can start mature when commander make it a normal harvester.
also could make the color of mini havesters different for both players view and commanders view so he and players can see there not the same :)
- Make hydra cost 5 PR and whips 10P, I found old 10PR for hydra to much for there preformance, whips are somewhat more usefull because they trow nades back :>
I think this would make gorge fun, more usefull anywhere in the game, either defensive or offensive or recover form losing ground and harvesters by an marine attack.
Current way, costless buildings and limitation removing the fun for me at least with gorge, you just run around puking stuff in onos there asses so they dont die, 5 mini cysts yeah thats gonna help not and 3 hydra that barely hit anything or just dont do much damage but barely see them kill anything.
just my thoughts
I definitively think hydras should cost PR though, but perhaps 10 res (and can be recycled for 5).
I like the idea of mini-harvesters that need to be upgraded by the commander in emergencies, seems a good compromise.
Of course it would also be really useful and make you able to defend yourself decently. On that front whips are similar to the good ol' OC:s. Having the gorge able to make newborn versions of most structures, excluding hive and upgrades, and let the kham be able to upgrade them to start maturing would be really nice. Maybe half the cost as pres, and then the kham can spend the other half as tres. Might run into balance issues with it though, since it might be better to have a couple of gorges drop everything and the kham upgrade. On second thought, it would make less people up front fighting, so it might be worth the trade... Would add a nice gorge-kham dynamic I think. With that change, I wouldn't mind the gorge as weak in combat as it is now.
<!--quoteo(post=1937113:date=May 18 2012, 01:57 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 18 2012, 01:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937113"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They are abilities. The fact that his ability resembles a structure and is stationary does not take away the fact that it is his method of interacting with the world and using the tools given to him. No other class costs pres to use their abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So the "problem" as you describe it, was that the Gorge was somehow too <b>unique</b>, and the "<b>fix</b>" was to simply further homogenize the two teams? Yeah, that sure sounds like a great change. There's not been enough homogenization already.</sarcasm>
<!--quoteo(post=1937113:date=May 18 2012, 01:57 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 18 2012, 01:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937113"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An arms lab is far different from a hydra.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And how different is a pack of Mines? they cost 15 PRes and let you *relatively* secure a location against Skulks, which could be considered a parallele to a vanilla Marine, which is what Hydras were good at denying territory against. Those also cost PRes.
<!--quoteo(post=1937113:date=May 18 2012, 01:57 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 18 2012, 01:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937113"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Costing Pres meant you were always locked into PermaGorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As opposed to now where you are locked in to PermaGorge or your Hydras vanish?
Now you are not only locked in to PermaGorge, but you are also locked to the location where you drop your measely 3 Hydras. Move away from them and you just risk getting killed. Don't even get me started on the clunky/cumbersome way you have to get rid of them to be able to drop them someplace else, it's so counter-intuitive I don't even know where to begin.
Look at a simple scenario that happens during any game, you put some Hydras at the edge of your territory to defend it, your Skulks/other teammates take more territory further up, if you're not at your Hydras already you first have to run back to them, get rid of them, then run to the new territory and re-drop them. With PRes you could steadily drop a new hydra in a new area that you gained ground in quite easily. Was this a bad thing? No, because it was helping your team secure some territory at the cost of your personal PRes, which meant you couldn't *also* soon evolve into a higher lifeform as a tradeoff.
Then there are numerous other core gameplay problems stemming from this change such as all the gorges now having no PRes sinks just sit around at their measely 3 Hydras for 9-10 minutes collecting res to go Fade or Onos, which is boring. It's also just another contributation to the alien "tech explosion" where at a certain point in a game all the aliens evolve Fade and Onos at the same time.
Why are they making this "tech explosion" problem even worse? It was already a problem because of Gorges not being <b>required</b> to drop upgrades and RTs and Hives, but now it's just made even worse because the few people that are masochistic enough to play a Gorge in its current state don't spend any PRes at all!
Then there's the hypocrisy of the devs refusing to put a hard cap on things like ARCs and yet they're perfectly fine with doing it for Hydras and Crags.