IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2012
Yea that's what i figured... i used it all the time in pub games, but seeing as i never played competitively in ns1 i had to take what was said as accurate
Regardless, abilities /weapon change to allow for the same ability that every other class has would greatly improve the lerk without creating any imbalances - all while raising the skill ceiling.
Yeah. The spore is an absolutely vital part of the NS1 lerk gameplay.
Understanding how the bite-spore relation worked in NS1 is a huge deal in understanding why people are not happy with the NS2 implementation and why the NS2 close combat lerk design is in risk of being a dead end.
<!--quoteo(post=1939284:date=May 27 2012, 08:17 AM:name=Balderon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Balderon @ May 27 2012, 08:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939284"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about a medium range spore then? Like a bile bomb but instead of structure damage it will release a "spore bomb". That means they can't be completely out of battle when sporing and it would fit quite well with bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I REALLY like this idea. It makes it so lerks dont literally have to fly next to a marine to hope to do any spore damage but it also keeps them from 'spore-sniping' from that vent across the room. Either this or maybe the ability to release a larger cloud of spores in an area around the lerk.
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1940152:date=May 30 2012, 04:15 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ May 30 2012, 04:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh you were referring to NS1. Yeah, spores were absolutely vital. Which PT had the guts to say otherwise?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not that it wasn't used in comp games. That's not the reason at all. Cory had outlined it perfectly here:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Trailing spores were designed to get the Lerk up off the ground and flying around, instead of sitting back out of the room or in a vent somewhere sporing and spiking. We tried the projectile spores, and that is exactly what was happening - unseen lerks, hanging back out of battle, not flying around. As soon as we changed the spores from projectile to trailing, Lerks engaged in combat and were flying around much more and being smarter and more tactical with their playstyle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Implying projectile-spores as in NS1 didn't involve a truckload of tactics, and calling the cropduster-mechanic tactical and smart is bemusing to say the least.
<!--quoteo(post=1940167:date=May 30 2012, 04:38 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ May 30 2012, 04:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940167"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/blindns" target="_blank">Competitive casts of NS1</a>, you may learn a thing or two.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I also wrote about how ns1 competitive scene worked awhile ago, if players a interested: <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TNdpEVSgMToY99qNY-3a0D-PbhxryZ9Z1FoNhDeYV-c/edit" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TNdpEVS...FoNhDeYV-c/edit</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1940214:date=May 30 2012, 06:18 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ May 30 2012, 06:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940214"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Implying projectile-spores as in NS1 didn't involve a truckload of tactics, and calling the cropduster-mechanic tactical and smart is bemusing to say the least.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and continuing to ignore the mechanic that makes both groups happy (spores take on your momentum) is just...lazy
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2012
@ Saba : no one ever said that spore usage in competitve games had anything to do with the switch to crop dusting spores??
I was referring to those who called for a change based on the fact that crop dusting spores aren't used in competitive games. (which i disagree on, as i always use them)
In any case this thread is being derailed by some regulars...
To put it back on track: yes there is room for improvement on this change - far less than what would be needed to revert it to something which wasn't fitting the design goals of the life form. Iterative development etc etc..
So in the meantime we should keep this thread as the OP meant for it to be: a thank you for bringing back bite. On that note: Thanks! tons of fun to play with, as i swoop in, bite and swoop/spore out. Completes the feeling of harassing finally for me.
Lerk bite is so OP, but my main issue is that I don't feel like a Lerk anymore. Rather, a flying Skulk.
Please drop the bite, I think it was a bad move.
I like how the spikes seem more visible now, and I love the spread. Maybe increase the ROF and drop the damage a little and I think it will be spot on.
How is it OP? I finally feel like a Lerk! Being able to fly in and spore then swoop in and out biting Marines to death! Such awesome gameplay! I finally feel much more "connected" to the battlefield now :)
<!--quoteo(post=1940253:date=May 31 2012, 12:40 AM:name=Smasher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smasher @ May 31 2012, 12:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How is it OP? I finally feel like a Lerk! Being able to fly in and spore then swoop in and out biting Marines to death! Such awesome gameplay! I finally feel much more "connected" to the battlefield now :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, considering I play on a crappy laptop and I have been taking groups of 2/3 down with ease..
<!--quoteo(post=1940253:date=May 31 2012, 01:40 AM:name=Smasher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smasher @ May 31 2012, 01:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How is it OP? I finally feel like a Lerk! Being able to fly in and spore then swoop in and out biting Marines to death! Such awesome gameplay! I finally feel much more "connected" to the battlefield now :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A single bite from a lerk will bring you down to 5 health before the poison stop working. Getting a medpack stops the poison.
<i>I love to finally be able to bite again. However, I would much prefer if the damage over time effect would deal a more noticable damage over just a few seconds rather then very low until you are basically dead.</i>
Lerk is fine now :) need just umbra :) ... He is not OP this is just marines need to practice theey aim and stop whining everytime, what we did in ns1 to contremesure lerk ? remember this and apply this !!!
And if you make just a bad move whit lerk against any sg lvl2 or 3 or hmg etc your dead.
Now the lerk doing his job of harassing and killing bad marine alone or miscoordinated.
Before whine about bite overpowered and so other thing everytime start by dont go alone as marines and it will be different after thaht learn to block lerk in corridor or embush etc .....
Like in ns 1..
But i need to conced that you can easily kill 15-20 marines before died as lerk :)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Trailing spores were designed to get the Lerk up off the ground and flying around, instead of sitting back out of the room or in a vent somewhere sporing and spiking. We tried the projectile spores, and that is exactly what was happening - unseen lerks, hanging back out of battle, not flying around. As soon as we changed the spores from projectile to trailing, Lerks engaged in combat and were flying around much more and being smarter and more tactical with their playstyle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just wanted to add something to this comment. Trailer spores indeed forces the lerk into close combat but they need something to be able to do that later in the game if the trailing spores are staying.
About the projectile spores, there were big difference between good lerks and bad lerks when sporing. Good lerks always managed to spore marines effectively while less experience lerk did a lot less damage to the marine economy(forcing medpacks). Also the lerks where in constant pressure since everyone in the marine team were waiting for a chance to snipe them. If you poked out at the wrong time you could get instantly sniped by a pistol(faster fire rate). It was a nice mix of putting yourself at risk when using spores/umbra without exposing yourself to much. This also made skulk parasites very important to prevent marines from surprising them(instant death in most cases if caught by surprise). I also remember many new players commenting that lerk was very enjoyable because they could be useful for the team without actually going into the combat(it was the same with the gorge). The change from projectile spore into trailing does not in any way force the lerk to make more tactical choices, just made his choices different. You can read little bit about how important lerk was in competitive play in the link I gave in my earlier post.
Now I don't care what type of spores end up in the game while it ends up being viable. I do however prefer something that does not block my vision all game long when I'm playing marines, but that's just my opinion. But if the new things are not working out I think going for ns1 style spores is a good choice. We have 9 years of experience with it and we already know what good it does for the gameplay(not just the things I named here).
<!--quoteo(post=1940297:date=May 31 2012, 02:27 AM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ May 31 2012, 02:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940297"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Trailer spores indeed forces the lerk into close combat but they need something to be able to do that later in the game if the trailing spores are staying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They will be getting projectile Umbra in the next patch, which should help keep them relevant and able to still get into close combat late game.
Ooh that sounds exciting. As someone who tries really hard to be a curmudgeon/doomsayer/contrarian, the <i>direction </i>of the lerk is looking good again.
<!--quoteo(post=1940307:date=May 30 2012, 11:23 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ May 30 2012, 11:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940307"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They will be getting projectile Umbra in the next patch, which should help keep them relevant and able to still get into close combat late game.
<!--quoteo(post=1940307:date=May 31 2012, 05:23 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ May 31 2012, 05:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940307"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They will be getting projectile Umbra in the next patch, which should help keep them relevant and able to still get into close combat late game.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's awsome! Even better then having them the other way around, as I think of it. Good lerks can still make themselves umbraed too and from combat, while it also allow you to use other abilities while in actual combat easier, whether it is trailing spores or bite :)
Comments
Regardless, abilities /weapon change to allow for the same ability that every other class has would greatly improve the lerk without creating any imbalances - all while raising the skill ceiling.
Understanding how the bite-spore relation worked in NS1 is a huge deal in understanding why people are not happy with the NS2 implementation and why the NS2 close combat lerk design is in risk of being a dead end.
I REALLY like this idea. It makes it so lerks dont literally have to fly next to a marine to hope to do any spore damage but it also keeps them from 'spore-sniping' from that vent across the room. Either this or maybe the ability to release a larger cloud of spores in an area around the lerk.
It's not that it wasn't used in comp games. That's not the reason at all. Cory had outlined it perfectly here:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Trailing spores were designed to get the Lerk up off the ground and flying around, instead of sitting back out of the room or in a vent somewhere sporing and spiking. We tried the projectile spores, and that is exactly what was happening - unseen lerks, hanging back out of battle, not flying around. As soon as we changed the spores from projectile to trailing, Lerks engaged in combat and were flying around much more and being smarter and more tactical with their playstyle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
@SabaHell,
I'm pretty sure Tweadle knows about cory's explanations, since he did a relevant response to it. You can read it on page 2.
I also wrote about how ns1 competitive scene worked awhile ago, if players a interested:
<a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TNdpEVSgMToY99qNY-3a0D-PbhxryZ9Z1FoNhDeYV-c/edit" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TNdpEVS...FoNhDeYV-c/edit</a>
and continuing to ignore the mechanic that makes both groups happy (spores take on your momentum) is just...lazy
I was referring to those who called for a change based on the fact that crop dusting spores aren't used in competitive games. (which i disagree on, as i always use them)
In any case this thread is being derailed by some regulars...
To put it back on track: yes there is room for improvement on this change - far less than what would be needed to revert it to something which wasn't fitting the design goals of the life form. Iterative development etc etc..
So in the meantime we should keep this thread as the OP meant for it to be: a thank you for bringing back bite.
On that note: Thanks! tons of fun to play with, as i swoop in, bite and swoop/spore out. Completes the feeling of harassing finally for me.
Please drop the bite, I think it was a bad move.
I like how the spikes seem more visible now, and I love the spread. Maybe increase the ROF and drop the damage a little and I think it will be spot on.
I finally feel like a Lerk! Being able to fly in and spore then swoop in and out biting Marines to death! Such awesome gameplay! I finally feel much more "connected" to the battlefield now :)
I finally feel like a Lerk! Being able to fly in and spore then swoop in and out biting Marines to death! Such awesome gameplay! I finally feel much more "connected" to the battlefield now :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, considering I play on a crappy laptop and I have been taking groups of 2/3 down with ease..
I finally feel like a Lerk! Being able to fly in and spore then swoop in and out biting Marines to death! Such awesome gameplay! I finally feel much more "connected" to the battlefield now :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A single bite from a lerk will bring you down to 5 health before the poison stop working. Getting a medpack stops the poison.
<i>I love to finally be able to bite again. However, I would much prefer if the damage over time effect would deal a more noticable damage over just a few seconds rather then very low until you are basically dead.</i>
He is not OP this is just marines need to practice theey aim and stop whining everytime, what we did in ns1 to contremesure lerk ? remember this and apply this !!!
And if you make just a bad move whit lerk against any sg lvl2 or 3 or hmg etc your dead.
Now the lerk doing his job of harassing and killing bad marine alone or miscoordinated.
Before whine about bite overpowered and so other thing everytime start by dont go alone as marines and it will be different after thaht learn to block lerk in corridor or embush etc .....
Like in ns 1..
But i need to conced that you can easily kill 15-20 marines before died as lerk :)
Just wanted to add something to this comment. Trailer spores indeed forces the lerk into close combat but they need something to be able to do that later in the game if the trailing spores are staying.
About the projectile spores, there were big difference between good lerks and bad lerks when sporing. Good lerks always managed to spore marines effectively while less experience lerk did a lot less damage to the marine economy(forcing medpacks). Also the lerks where in constant pressure since everyone in the marine team were waiting for a chance to snipe them. If you poked out at the wrong time you could get instantly sniped by a pistol(faster fire rate). It was a nice mix of putting yourself at risk when using spores/umbra without exposing yourself to much. This also made skulk parasites very important to prevent marines from surprising them(instant death in most cases if caught by surprise). I also remember many new players commenting that lerk was very enjoyable because they could be useful for the team without actually going into the combat(it was the same with the gorge).
The change from projectile spore into trailing does not in any way force the lerk to make more tactical choices, just made his choices different. You can read little bit about how important lerk was in competitive play in the link I gave in my earlier post.
Now I don't care what type of spores end up in the game while it ends up being viable. I do however prefer something that does not block my vision all game long when I'm playing marines, but that's just my opinion.
But if the new things are not working out I think going for ns1 style spores is a good choice. We have 9 years of experience with it and we already know what good it does for the gameplay(not just the things I named here).
They will be getting projectile Umbra in the next patch, which should help keep them relevant and able to still get into close combat late game.
--Cory
reading this changelog is like DERPYDERP DERP
a whole list of changes that shouldnt have ever been changed in the first place, time that couldve been spent adding other things to the game.
makes me actually wanna play again, thumbs up
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All I needed.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's awsome! Even better then having them the other way around, as I think of it. Good lerks can still make themselves umbraed too and from combat, while it also allow you to use other abilities while in actual combat easier, whether it is trailing spores or bite :)
Good move!