IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
You guys are so funny. Yes i backed up a whole RCH - it was a flinch backwards. You have to in order to see the trace. The spread is still highly applicable and easy to determine 1 mm away from your face.
I dont consider that insanely large. You are factoring in the starting or originating cone, which is not what i was discussing, nor wished to change. Draw a circle around the terminating points after a couple of shots, and you will find the cone, while larger than the screenshot i posted thank god, is still not the size of NS1 shotgun. i.e. i dont consider it "insanely" large.
And yes the ns1 shotgun is a good comparison. Sorry if you dont agree. Its another game with a shotgun. i can load up tons of games where the shotgun behaves similarly to that. Its what you would expect, plus it has important trade offs that the old shotgun spread didnt have. The old shotgun became a jack of all trades - a sniper shotgun sometimes. Fixing the spread is fixing the fundamental problems with it being a jack of all trades, and giving it more of a role. (better up close, gasp, just like ns1 and every other game!)
@hapro: show me a game where the buckshot shotgun grouping is that tight? (since "real life" doesnt apply to anywhere in this game.)
Some point blank shots. The green lines represents pellets that missed. The shotgun shoots 10 pellets. It's missing 20-30% of the pellets from bite range. This means it's nearly impossible to 1 shot carapace skulks. With a ~1s refire rate, that makes the free LMG faster than the shotgun at killing the lightest armored unit in the game. This is compounded by higher lifeforms who have more armor, which the shotgun is even worse at dealing damage to.
And here's a random spread on a fade. Do you enjoy arbitrarily missing 40% of your pellets against a close range fade, even with 100% accuracy? <a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/337/2012053100012.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/6258/2012053100012.th.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
<!--quoteo(post=1940565:date=May 31 2012, 03:27 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 31 2012, 03:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940565"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You guys are so funny. Yes i backed up a whole RCH - it was a flinch backwards. You have to in order to see the trace. The spread is still highly applicable and easy to determine 1 mm away from your face.
I dont consider that insanely large. You are factoring in the starting or originating cone, which is not what i was discussing, nor wished to change. Draw a circle around the terminating points after a couple of shots, and you will find the cone, while larger than the screenshot i posted thank god, is still not the size of NS1 shotgun. i.e. i dont consider it "insanely" large.
And yes the ns1 shotgun is a good comparison. Sorry if you dont agree. Its another game with a shotgun. i can load up tons of games where the shotgun behaves similarly to that. Its what you would expect, plus it has important trade offs that the old shotgun spread didnt have. The old shotgun became a jack of all trades - a sniper shotgun sometimes. Fixing the spread is fixing the fundamental problems with it being a jack of all trades, and giving it more of a role. (better up close, gasp, just like ns1 and every other game!)
@hapro: show me a game where the buckshot shotgun grouping is that tight? (since "real life" doesnt apply to anywhere in this game.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me go load up borderlands and see how that shotgun works. It's so very applicable in a different game on a different engine with different speeds, movement styles, and hitboxes. /sarcasm.
What did you playtesters seem to think was wrong with the previous shotgun?
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2012
gorgeous... thats due to the originating cone being too large, not the terminating end. The amount of pellets compound this issue. OH and nothing better demonstrates hit reg issues like the shotgun for some technical reasons.
In short: a change for the better was made, but adjustments weren't put in just yet. <i>Welcome to iterative development, you beta tester. :)</i>
Devs are working on this right now. So you can cease the attitude. Thanks for the feedback though.
I'm still unsure how this change was for the better, could you explain that one?
You took an already nerfed shotgun that could already barely 1 shot carapace skulks and rarely even 3 shot fades. Then you bumped up the spread by a huge amount. I'm also unsure how the originating cone isn't what we're talking about as that seems to have a pretty huge impact on the spread (specially close range). I'm talking about how the new spread is bad for gameplay reasons and the originating cone is part of that.
What, exactly, isn't working as intended with the b209 shotgun? And why is more randomness in a skill-based shooter a good thing? It's like adding critical hits. "Well, you rolled 10/10 of your pellets hitting the skulk and killed him!" vs "Well, you rolled 6/10 of your pellets hitting the skulk and he killed you!"
This real-life/other game comparison is pointless - It should be balanced. Shotgun might have had a much wider spread in NS1 - What does it matter?
Was Shotgun imbalanced before? Not that I know of.
New GL obviously serves it's purpose as AoE/Anti-Building. Flamethrower has it's DoT and Energy debuff. Shotgun was anti-personnel and served it's purpose.
Shotgun was the better weapon because 90% of the time you're fighting against a player - But, HMG is the other anti-personnel weapon and it isn't even in the game.
They've pretty much just brought the Shotgun down to the Flamethrower's level - It has a purpose, but it's not very good at it.
<!--quoteo(post=1940573:date=May 31 2012, 11:42 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 31 2012, 11:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940573"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->gorgeous... thats due to the originating cone being too large, not the terminating end. The amount of pellets compound this issue. OH and nothing better demonstrates hit reg issues like the shotgun for some technical reasons.
In short: a change for the better was made, but adjustments weren't put in just yet. <i>Welcome to iterative development, you beta tester. :)</i>
Devs are working on this right now. So you can cease the attitude. Thanks for the feedback though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is talking down to people part of being a Playtester?
UWE don't practice iterative development, they randomly change things they don't iterate changes.
Changing Lerk to Melee, pre-emptively nerfing the Shotgun then giving the Lerk more armor anyway isn't an iterative process.
That's change a few things change a few things back change some more stuff later.
They're playing Mastermind and hoping to get the correct colour combination.
Clearly this thread is full of a little too much rage. So I went to the trouble of putting together some videos showing the Shotgun in Build 210 - Hopefully the improvements we are making over the B209 shotgun will make you guys happy :). Take careful note of the effectiveness of the shotgun against drifters in the first video, and let us know what you think of the spread :)
<!--quoteo(post=1940578:date=May 31 2012, 03:59 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ May 31 2012, 03:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940578"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Clearly this thread is full of a little too much rage. So I went to the trouble of putting together some videos showing the Shotgun in Build 210 - Hopefully the improvements we are making over the B209 shotgun will make you guys happy :). Take careful note of the effectiveness of the shotgun against drifters in the first video, and let us know what you think of the spread :)
Enjoy!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was slightly confused. But then I laughed and ate my candy corn.
<!--quoteo(post=1940578:date=May 31 2012, 11:59 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ May 31 2012, 11:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940578"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Clearly this thread is full of a little too much rage. So I went to the trouble of putting together some videos showing the Shotgun in Build 210 - Hopefully the improvements we are making over the B209 shotgun will make you guys happy :). Take careful note of the effectiveness of the shotgun against drifters in the first video, and let us know what you think of the spread :)
Enjoy!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really not that funny and I don't think many people are angry in this thread, I would be very angry however if there were no changes(improvements) to the Shotgun in 210 after this post.
I don't understand why you are arguing about spread ironhorse. The fact is the shotgun is crap. It doesn't behave how you would expect. It doesn't matter if it is exactly the same as another game or whatever. What matters is how effective the gun is in this game.
In most cases you need 3 shots at close range to kill a skulk. It should take 1 well aimed shot.
I don't understand the whole "shotgun was the best weapon for everything". The con of the shotgun is you can't use it at range. The pro is it deals damage faster at close range. It rewards aiming but also punishes you more for bad aim. The LMG is more forgiving and also can be used to snipe aliens from distance. The shotgun may be a bit better at killing aliens for good players, but it also costs res so you can't keep getting another one over and over.
The shotgun was fine in like build 180 or so. Then they nerfed it's damage and everyone just stuck with the LMG. They then increased the shotgun range and you were getting sniped from miles away by them. Round and round we go....
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Jay: Stop trying to instigate something. Its obvious. Telling someone that they dont need to use that tone of language is not "talking down." Neither is clearing up the fact that every patch isn't a polished product, but rather something for all of us to give feedback on <b>in a constructive, polite manner.</b>
Those of you who do not wish to be a beta tester might want to wait until 1.0 Being a tester means going through these sorts of pains that come with this development, and your feedback is helpful when it is not filled with sarcasm, accusatory tones, anger etc.
Read my signature link. Try to take a step back and breathe if patch to patch changes and development imperfections are angering you that much. As for explaining the shotgun - i already have. I'm done in this thread. It started poorly, and is clearly ending poorly, despite me trying to give some information.
I invite any of you to contact me through steam or PM to discuss further - i'd love to answer any questions you have but i'm not contributing to whatever <i>this</i> is anymore.
1) Higher damage 2) Normal damage type 3) Lower spread 4) Damage falloff over distance
Also, it is not bad that a shotgun is an upgade. After all you are spending 20 PRES for that upgrade. The role could still be CQC, of course it's going to be good because all aliens except gorge and lerk are forced into CQC as they use melee as primary attack. However, once you die it is also a 20PRES loss. The nature of the shotgun is and should be that you should land all hits or you die in CQC. For example vs skulks: if you miss that close range shot against the skulk, you just allow him to bite you a few times eventually killing you. However, if you hit, the skulk dies. (Also as extention of this concept, the optimal shotgun also rewards sneaky skulks and skulks with good movement skills -> they won't get hit as easily or not at all, allowing a good 0 PRES skulks to take down a 20PRES investment; simiarily, a 20PRES invenstment can take down a 30PRES or 50PRES investment if they are not careful enough (or the shotgunner is smart enough) ) Though, right now shotgun is not really CQC range, it is more like point-blank range which is quite stupid. The effective range needs to be higher, after that range the falloff kicks in.
With the current values (at lv0 weapons/no cara) you currently need 5 shots to a fade if you are rather close. You can only down the fade with 2 shots from point-blank range.
If the problem really is that it does too much damage against buildings just add a new shotgun damage types so shotgun is ineffective vs buildings.
Just see GORGEous' posts for some screenshots showing how the shotgun behaves now.
Also, just to point something out, the ~B190 shotgun was really rewarding. Fighting a fade was risky but rewarding, if you manged to land those shots, you took him down before he could kill you, if you didn't he'd kill you and would be on full HP again (renember, we had frenzy back then :P) Basicially high risk but also high reward. It is going to the other direction sightly, with everything taking more hits and being more durable
I think what we need is a list of shot numbers vs. lifeforms, then you can tweak the values. If you have no goal and just tweaks the value for fun it's not very useful.
Like this,
<b>1.</b>Without carapace :
skulk at bite range : 1 shot lerk at bite range : 2 shot ...
<!--quoteo(post=1940544:date=May 31 2012, 07:56 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 31 2012, 07:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940544"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This was the shotgun spread BEFORE it was widened, compared to the NS1. (btw the shots are biased in favor of ns2 as the wall is closer in the ns1 shot. still a huge difference though) <img src="http://i.imgur.com/jEETP.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not the best comparison since the NS1 shotgun used a special formula, where half the pellets landed inside a certain cone and half within a bigger one. Which meant you had a very good chance of landing 4 or 5 pellets (IIRC it shot 8 pellets total, but might've been 10) even at medium range on a skulk-sized target, whereas if the NS2 shotgun is evenly spread throughout, it would increase linearly right up to point blank.
I do think that something needs to be done 2 fix the shotgun, honestly i rarely will choose the shotgun over the rifle currently as its so unreliable, and so useless in many situations that i prefer the rifle to it.
Id rather see the shotgun changed to do normal damage, maybe have the pres cost increased to 25 so loosing them is a bigger blow.
If it proves to be too powerful against structures then i could see having the structure damage halved, as long as it is good at killing lifeforms (currently its does excel at anything).
The idea of a gun that doesn't benefit from aiming is a bit... iffy.
I'd prefer it if the gun either had a very narrow spread but a severe damage falloff, or at the very least, if most of the shots went where I point the gun.
Having a gun that just hurts things when you're right next to them is kinda... boring? Aliens at least have interesting movement options to counter their boring-as-hell weapons. Marines with melee weapons are just... dull.
<!--quoteo(post=1940589:date=May 31 2012, 04:29 PM:name=Omega_K2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omega_K2 @ May 31 2012, 04:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940589"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, it is not bad that a shotgun is an upgade. After all you are spending 20 PRES for that upgrade. The role could still be CQC, of course it's going to be good because all aliens except gorge and lerk are forced into CQC as they use melee as primary attack. However, once you die it is also a 20PRES loss. The nature of the shotgun is and should be that you should land all hits or you die in CQC. For example vs skulks: if you miss that close range shot against the skulk, you just allow him to bite you a few times eventually killing you. However, if you hit, the skulk dies. (Also as extention of this concept, the optimal shotgun also rewards sneaky skulks and skulks with good movement skills -> they won't get hit as easily or not at all, allowing a good 0 PRES skulks to take down a 20PRES investment; simiarily, a 20PRES invenstment can take down a 30PRES or 50PRES investment if they are not careful enough (or the shotgunner is smart enough) ) Though, right now shotgun is not really CQC range, it is more like point-blank range which is quite stupid. The effective range needs to be higher, after that range the falloff kicks in.
With the current values (at lv0 weapons/no cara) you currently need 5 shots to a fade if you are rather close. You can only down the fade with 2 shots from point-blank range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the real problem here. The shotgun is no longer a CQC weapon, but more of a melee weapon. The new spread is not good for balance. Close quarter, where shotguns are supposed to be effective, is where missing 50% of your shot based on randomness. This is a the most recent in a long number of shotgun nerfs accompanied by lifeform survivability buffs -- lerk gained 20 armor this patch, skulks and fades gained increased movement and damage reduction, respectively, recently.
I understand this is a beta and am not mad at anything. I'm simply pointing out that this is a) unnecessarily nerfing something that isn't overpowered while b) buffing the other side of the equation and c) nerfing by adding randomness. All bad things; the patch really missed the mark in regards to shotgun balancing.
<!--quoteo(post=1940565:date=May 31 2012, 08:27 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 31 2012, 08:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940565"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@hapro: show me a game where the buckshot shotgun grouping is that tight? (since "real life" doesnt apply to anywhere in this game.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The stalker series has all its shotguns be semi-realistic, it counterbalances it by making them rubbish against armor at range, armor just absorbs most of the tiny pellets, whereas rifle rounds punch through armor and hurt you at more or less any range. Still, you always want to take a shotgun for the raw DPS and ease of use, it's much better against unarmored mutants and enemies with lots of HP, as well as generally good in close quarters where the sheer weight of fire can stun-lock enemies a bit, giving you time to kill them or get to cover.
Also are you sure that shotgun spread is right? It seems WAY too narrow, last time I played the shots went everywhere, it was like playing doom 3 almost, although not quite as bad as that.
<!--quoteo(post=1940592:date=May 31 2012, 09:42 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ May 31 2012, 09:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940592"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i got 1 shotted by shotguns plenty this patch. it really imo comes down to performance. the faster a skulk is moving, the worse the hitreg is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can still be 1 shotted, but in most cases you need to be very very close. It also depends on weapon upgrades and whether or not you have cara.
This post is to emphasize Gorgeous and Jay's points (thx for posting this, too).
Shotgun wasn't op, and still got nerfed. Add more pellets if you want more spread but the shotgun is a joke. I use shotguns often in real life as I'm sure many others on this forum do and the way the shotgun works in this game is almost paradoxical. No, I'm not trying to drag real life or physics into a video game but don't call it a "shotgun" if the cartridges it uses could hardly even be viewed on the level of doveshot.
Why don't shotguns get slugs or something useful if the spread is going to be changed to a melee range?
or add more pellets to a wider circle around an inner circle.
The main thing I see wrong with this is that the shotgun doesn't even have a secondary attack yet, how can you possibly be so concerned with the current action of it in game when it doesn't even have something that could otherwise provide advantage in certain gameplay cases?
Im going to post a correct comparison, which shows that the spreads might be somewhat comparable currently, with NS2 having a larger spread than NS1, however NS1 had no damage falloff IIRC, and did 'normal' damage, and fired faster. Nerfing three parts of the shotgun has basically made it a weapon that most people choose not even to research anymore.
From my testing with that spread you pretty much need to be well within bite range to get a oneshot on a skulk currently.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1940644:date=Jun 1 2012, 12:38 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jun 1 2012, 12:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940644"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->with NS2 having a larger spread than NS1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't necessarily disagree with your statement, but I would be careful about using those screenshots as a comparison. The decals you see on the wall in the NS1 screenshots aren't where the bullets are actually hitting. All the decals in NS1 are client side, the only time you see where the bullets actually hit is when you shoot something that can take damage -- the hit markers are server side.
<!--quoteo(post=1940644:date=Jun 1 2012, 12:38 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jun 1 2012, 12:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940644"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->however NS1 had no damage falloff IIRC, and did 'normal' damage, and fired faster.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The NS1 shotgun had an absolute damage falloff if I remember correctly, as I think I said earlier in this thread (cba checking!). Up until a certain distance it did full damage, but after that it did zero damage. It did "normal" damage to lifeforms, but something like 1.5x damage to structures. You're probably right about it firing faster.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
The NS1 shotgun did at one point have a linear damage falloff, which was changed out for the per-pellet system. It did have a maximum range rather than decreasing damage past a given range. That said, I'm still getting used to the 209 shotgun; it's different, but doesn't seem necessarily weaker. Just requires an adaptation of playstyle.
Yea i know that the decals are client side, thats a big problem in CS, but it is in general a good show of what the spread 'should' be. Also my saying the spread is larger was ment as a small amount of difference mainly, as from the two pictures they seem pretty close.
Here's a suggestion - make the primary attack a tighter spread of pellets, and the secondary attack a wider spread of pellets. This way, people can have the spread that appeals to them the most.
Or you could use the secondary attack button to show a visual transition of the shotgun's barrel retracting to enable "sawed-off" mode, akin to how the pistol transition works.
As for how shotguns work in the real world - I don't think anyone would accuse NS2 of operating in lockstep with the laws of physics. :)
It would be nice if ironhorse and any other playtesters / developers did not get an attitude when asked about a particular change so we can keep this discussion focused and positive.
I think we're all interested in the rationale behind changes like these and just want to hear what you guys have to say without the flaming.
I think the big issue with the shotgun right now isn't so much it's spread / damage. I think it's cost vs it's usefulness in the last few builds has made the shotgun pretty obsolete. I didn't notice much difference really when using it this build... it was unreliable and cumbersome as always.
I don't ever feel confident with the shotgun because it is so random in nature. The LMG is reliable and free. Right now it's a better investment to buy mines instead of shotguns. Shottie isn't effective in combat... only when you are a good luck streak with it. It's pretty abysmal until weapons 3 anyway.
The wider spread in my eyes doesn't really effect any of the balance because the shotgun is broken to begin with. Before gorilla the shotgun was actually a good weapon that was reliable and did consistent damage. Ever since then it's been a random cannon (Remember the noob stick from CS). I would compared it to that except worse.
The shotgun fires impossibly slow and it's luck if you even land a hit even when your aim is spot on. You usually get killed by a skulk before you can even get a follow up shot. The shotgun should fire a bit faster IMO that way all the other balancing things like damage and spread will be negligible.
Let it shoot faster but have the spread be much larger. It should be super effective at close range yet right now its like a pseudo rifle as its only good at mid range due to its slow rate of fire and low damage. You should have to be point blank for the shotgun to be good... but right now the closer the skulks get to you with the shotgun the more screwed you are due to its mechanics.
Just make it identical to the NS1 shotgun and you are good.
Comments
I dont consider that insanely large. You are factoring in the starting or originating cone, which is not what i was discussing, nor wished to change.
Draw a circle around the terminating points after a couple of shots, and you will find the cone, while larger than the screenshot i posted thank god, is still not the size of NS1 shotgun. i.e. i dont consider it "insanely" large.
And yes the ns1 shotgun is a good comparison. Sorry if you dont agree.
Its another game with a shotgun. i can load up tons of games where the shotgun behaves similarly to that. Its what you would expect, plus it has important trade offs that the old shotgun spread didnt have. The old shotgun became a jack of all trades - a sniper shotgun sometimes. Fixing the spread is fixing the fundamental problems with it being a jack of all trades, and giving it more of a role. (better up close, gasp, just like ns1 and every other game!)
@hapro: show me a game where the buckshot shotgun grouping is that tight? (since "real life" doesnt apply to anywhere in this game.)
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/163/2012053100008.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6265/2012053100008.th.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/715/2012053100010.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/4529/2012053100010.th.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/687/2012053100011.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/4039/2012053100011.th.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
And here's a random spread on a fade. Do you enjoy arbitrarily missing 40% of your pellets against a close range fade, even with 100% accuracy?
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/337/2012053100012.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/6258/2012053100012.th.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
I dont consider that insanely large. You are factoring in the starting or originating cone, which is not what i was discussing, nor wished to change.
Draw a circle around the terminating points after a couple of shots, and you will find the cone, while larger than the screenshot i posted thank god, is still not the size of NS1 shotgun. i.e. i dont consider it "insanely" large.
And yes the ns1 shotgun is a good comparison. Sorry if you dont agree.
Its another game with a shotgun. i can load up tons of games where the shotgun behaves similarly to that. Its what you would expect, plus it has important trade offs that the old shotgun spread didnt have. The old shotgun became a jack of all trades - a sniper shotgun sometimes. Fixing the spread is fixing the fundamental problems with it being a jack of all trades, and giving it more of a role. (better up close, gasp, just like ns1 and every other game!)
@hapro: show me a game where the buckshot shotgun grouping is that tight? (since "real life" doesnt apply to anywhere in this game.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me go load up borderlands and see how that shotgun works. It's so very applicable in a different game on a different engine with different speeds, movement styles, and hitboxes. /sarcasm.
What did you playtesters seem to think was wrong with the previous shotgun?
The amount of pellets compound this issue.
OH and nothing better demonstrates hit reg issues like the shotgun for some technical reasons.
In short: a change for the better was made, but adjustments weren't put in just yet. <i>Welcome to iterative development, you beta tester. :)</i>
Devs are working on this right now. So you can cease the attitude. Thanks for the feedback though.
You took an already nerfed shotgun that could already barely 1 shot carapace skulks and rarely even 3 shot fades. Then you bumped up the spread by a huge amount. I'm also unsure how the originating cone isn't what we're talking about as that seems to have a pretty huge impact on the spread (specially close range). I'm talking about how the new spread is bad for gameplay reasons and the originating cone is part of that.
What, exactly, isn't working as intended with the b209 shotgun? And why is more randomness in a skill-based shooter a good thing? It's like adding critical hits. "Well, you rolled 10/10 of your pellets hitting the skulk and killed him!" vs "Well, you rolled 6/10 of your pellets hitting the skulk and he killed you!"
Was Shotgun imbalanced before? Not that I know of.
New GL obviously serves it's purpose as AoE/Anti-Building.
Flamethrower has it's DoT and Energy debuff.
Shotgun was anti-personnel and served it's purpose.
Shotgun was the better weapon because 90% of the time you're fighting against a player - But, HMG is the other anti-personnel weapon and it isn't even in the game.
They've pretty much just brought the Shotgun down to the Flamethrower's level - It has a purpose, but it's not very good at it.
The amount of pellets compound this issue.
OH and nothing better demonstrates hit reg issues like the shotgun for some technical reasons.
In short: a change for the better was made, but adjustments weren't put in just yet. <i>Welcome to iterative development, you beta tester. :)</i>
Devs are working on this right now. So you can cease the attitude. Thanks for the feedback though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is talking down to people part of being a Playtester?
UWE don't practice iterative development, they randomly change things they don't iterate changes.
Changing Lerk to Melee, pre-emptively nerfing the Shotgun then giving the Lerk more armor anyway isn't an iterative process.
That's change a few things change a few things back change some more stuff later.
They're playing Mastermind and hoping to get the correct colour combination.
Enjoy!
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I was slightly confused. But then I laughed and ate my candy corn.
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Really not that funny and I don't think many people are angry in this thread, I would be very angry however if there were no changes(improvements) to the Shotgun in 210 after this post.
In most cases you need 3 shots at close range to kill a skulk. It should take 1 well aimed shot.
I don't understand the whole "shotgun was the best weapon for everything". The con of the shotgun is you can't use it at range. The pro is it deals damage faster at close range. It rewards aiming but also punishes you more for bad aim. The LMG is more forgiving and also can be used to snipe aliens from distance. The shotgun may be a bit better at killing aliens for good players, but it also costs res so you can't keep getting another one over and over.
The shotgun was fine in like build 180 or so. Then they nerfed it's damage and everyone just stuck with the LMG. They then increased the shotgun range and you were getting sniped from miles away by them. Round and round we go....
Those of you who do not wish to be a beta tester might want to wait until 1.0
Being a tester means going through these sorts of pains that come with this development, and your feedback is helpful when it is not filled with sarcasm, accusatory tones, anger etc.
Read my signature link. Try to take a step back and breathe if patch to patch changes and development imperfections are angering you that much.
As for explaining the shotgun - i already have.
I'm done in this thread.
It started poorly, and is clearly ending poorly, despite me trying to give some information.
I invite any of you to contact me through steam or PM to discuss further - i'd love to answer any questions you have but i'm not contributing to whatever <i>this</i> is anymore.
1) Higher damage
2) Normal damage type
3) Lower spread
4) Damage falloff over distance
Also, it is not bad that a shotgun is an upgade. After all you are spending 20 PRES for that upgrade. The role could still be CQC, of course it's going to be good because all aliens except gorge and lerk are forced into CQC as they use melee as primary attack. However, once you die it is also a 20PRES loss. The nature of the shotgun is and should be that you should land all hits or you die in CQC.
For example vs skulks: if you miss that close range shot against the skulk, you just allow him to bite you a few times eventually killing you. However, if you hit, the skulk dies. (Also as extention of this concept, the optimal shotgun also rewards sneaky skulks and skulks with good movement skills -> they won't get hit as easily or not at all, allowing a good 0 PRES skulks to take down a 20PRES investment; simiarily, a 20PRES invenstment can take down a 30PRES or 50PRES investment if they are not careful enough (or the shotgunner is smart enough) ) Though, right now shotgun is not really CQC range, it is more like point-blank range which is quite stupid. The effective range needs to be higher, after that range the falloff kicks in.
With the current values (at lv0 weapons/no cara) you currently need 5 shots to a fade if you are rather close. You can only down the fade with 2 shots from point-blank range.
If the problem really is that it does too much damage against buildings just add a new shotgun damage types so shotgun is ineffective vs buildings.
Just see GORGEous' posts for some screenshots showing how the shotgun behaves now.
Also, just to point something out, the ~B190 shotgun was really rewarding. Fighting a fade was risky but rewarding, if you manged to land those shots, you took him down before he could kill you, if you didn't he'd kill you and would be on full HP again (renember, we had frenzy back then :P) Basicially high risk but also high reward. It is going to the other direction sightly, with everything taking more hits and being more durable
Like this,
<b>1.</b>Without carapace :
skulk at bite range : 1 shot
lerk at bite range : 2 shot
...
<b>2.</b>With carapace :
...
Fill up the gaps.
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Not the best comparison since the NS1 shotgun used a special formula, where half the pellets landed inside a certain cone and half within a bigger one.
Which meant you had a very good chance of landing 4 or 5 pellets (IIRC it shot 8 pellets total, but might've been 10) even at medium range on a skulk-sized target, whereas if the NS2 shotgun is evenly spread throughout, it would increase linearly right up to point blank.
Id rather see the shotgun changed to do normal damage, maybe have the pres cost increased to 25 so loosing them is a bigger blow.
If it proves to be too powerful against structures then i could see having the structure damage halved, as long as it is good at killing lifeforms (currently its does excel at anything).
I'd prefer it if the gun either had a very narrow spread but a severe damage falloff, or at the very least, if most of the shots went where I point the gun.
Having a gun that just hurts things when you're right next to them is kinda... boring? Aliens at least have interesting movement options to counter their boring-as-hell weapons. Marines with melee weapons are just... dull.
For example vs skulks: if you miss that close range shot against the skulk, you just allow him to bite you a few times eventually killing you. However, if you hit, the skulk dies. (Also as extention of this concept, the optimal shotgun also rewards sneaky skulks and skulks with good movement skills -> they won't get hit as easily or not at all, allowing a good 0 PRES skulks to take down a 20PRES investment; simiarily, a 20PRES invenstment can take down a 30PRES or 50PRES investment if they are not careful enough (or the shotgunner is smart enough) ) Though, right now shotgun is not really CQC range, it is more like point-blank range which is quite stupid. The effective range needs to be higher, after that range the falloff kicks in.
With the current values (at lv0 weapons/no cara) you currently need 5 shots to a fade if you are rather close. You can only down the fade with 2 shots from point-blank range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the real problem here. The shotgun is no longer a CQC weapon, but more of a melee weapon. The new spread is not good for balance. Close quarter, where shotguns are supposed to be effective, is where missing 50% of your shot based on randomness. This is a the most recent in a long number of shotgun nerfs accompanied by lifeform survivability buffs -- lerk gained 20 armor this patch, skulks and fades gained increased movement and damage reduction, respectively, recently.
I understand this is a beta and am not mad at anything. I'm simply pointing out that this is a) unnecessarily nerfing something that isn't overpowered while b) buffing the other side of the equation and c) nerfing by adding randomness. All bad things; the patch really missed the mark in regards to shotgun balancing.
The stalker series has all its shotguns be semi-realistic, it counterbalances it by making them rubbish against armor at range, armor just absorbs most of the tiny pellets, whereas rifle rounds punch through armor and hurt you at more or less any range. Still, you always want to take a shotgun for the raw DPS and ease of use, it's much better against unarmored mutants and enemies with lots of HP, as well as generally good in close quarters where the sheer weight of fire can stun-lock enemies a bit, giving you time to kill them or get to cover.
Also are you sure that shotgun spread is right? It seems WAY too narrow, last time I played the shots went everywhere, it was like playing doom 3 almost, although not quite as bad as that.
You can still be 1 shotted, but in most cases you need to be very very close. It also depends on weapon upgrades and whether or not you have cara.
Shotgun wasn't op, and still got nerfed. Add more pellets if you want more spread but the shotgun is a joke. I use shotguns often in real life as I'm sure many others on this forum do and the way the shotgun works in this game is almost paradoxical. No, I'm not trying to drag real life or physics into a video game but don't call it a "shotgun" if the cartridges it uses could hardly even be viewed on the level of doveshot.
Why don't shotguns get slugs or something useful if the spread is going to be changed to a melee range?
or add more pellets to a wider circle around an inner circle.
The main thing I see wrong with this is that the shotgun doesn't even have a secondary attack yet, how can you possibly be so concerned with the current action of it in game when it doesn't even have something that could otherwise provide advantage in certain gameplay cases?
From my testing with that spread you pretty much need to be well within bite range to get a oneshot on a skulk currently.
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I don't necessarily disagree with your statement, but I would be careful about using those screenshots as a comparison. The decals you see on the wall in the NS1 screenshots aren't where the bullets are actually hitting. All the decals in NS1 are client side, the only time you see where the bullets actually hit is when you shoot something that can take damage -- the hit markers are server side.
<!--quoteo(post=1940644:date=Jun 1 2012, 12:38 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jun 1 2012, 12:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940644"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->however NS1 had no damage falloff IIRC, and did 'normal' damage, and fired faster.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The NS1 shotgun had an absolute damage falloff if I remember correctly, as I think I said earlier in this thread (cba checking!). Up until a certain distance it did full damage, but after that it did zero damage. It did "normal" damage to lifeforms, but something like 1.5x damage to structures. You're probably right about it firing faster.
Also my saying the spread is larger was ment as a small amount of difference mainly, as from the two pictures they seem pretty close.
Or you could use the secondary attack button to show a visual transition of the shotgun's barrel retracting to enable "sawed-off" mode, akin to how the pistol transition works.
As for how shotguns work in the real world - I don't think anyone would accuse NS2 of operating in lockstep with the laws of physics. :)
I think we're all interested in the rationale behind changes like these and just want to hear what you guys have to say without the flaming.
I don't ever feel confident with the shotgun because it is so random in nature. The LMG is reliable and free. Right now it's a better investment to buy mines instead of shotguns. Shottie isn't effective in combat... only when you are a good luck streak with it. It's pretty abysmal until weapons 3 anyway.
The wider spread in my eyes doesn't really effect any of the balance because the shotgun is broken to begin with. Before gorilla the shotgun was actually a good weapon that was reliable and did consistent damage. Ever since then it's been a random cannon (Remember the noob stick from CS). I would compared it to that except worse.
The shotgun fires impossibly slow and it's luck if you even land a hit even when your aim is spot on. You usually get killed by a skulk before you can even get a follow up shot. The shotgun should fire a bit faster IMO that way all the other balancing things like damage and spread will be negligible.
Let it shoot faster but have the spread be much larger. It should be super effective at close range yet right now its like a pseudo rifle as its only good at mid range due to its slow rate of fire and low damage. You should have to be point blank for the shotgun to be good... but right now the closer the skulks get to you with the shotgun the more screwed you are due to its mechanics.
Just make it identical to the NS1 shotgun and you are good.