I think a large resource advantage should provide a team with a large variety of options to choose from instead of a few very powerful ones. That way, resources still give a powerful advantage (the ability to quickly switch up your strategy to respond to your opponent), but even the deepest pockets can be counted by good teamwork and good intelligence.
Weapon and Armor upgrades are blanket stat upgrades that have no downsides or opportunity costs for the player. I'd rather see Weapon upgrades left to what you can research at the armory (HMG replaces lvl 3 LMG anybody?) and armor upgrades become some sort of speed/health tradeoff system players can choose from.
<!--quoteo(post=1942076:date=Jun 7 2012, 07:01 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jun 7 2012, 07:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942076"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think they actually do add meaningful choices. The way i see it, there is utility tech (everything else which is itemised and bought), and there is upgrade tech(w/a). You choose <b>when</b> you get upgrade tech, <b>which</b> upgrade tech, and <b>what</b> utility tech you cut to do so. Given a scarce resource and reasonable parity between every upgrades res-to-power you will always have meaningful choices. Problems arise when there is too much resource which devalues the cost of one upgrade over another, or when one upgrade is relatively cheaper in terms of res-to-power. Carapace is a good example of this with its res-to-power generally being much better than the other choices (exclude current OP celerity).
You may be confusing individual player perks (which generally arn't constrained by a meaningful resource system) with fundamental RTS mechanics! Yuuki hits it right on the head with the timings battle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not really a choice if not having it basically means you're screwed. Many of the upgrades are actually mandatory at certain stages of the game in order to have a reasonable chance of success. It's the same as having many gun choices with 1 being clearly the best.
As I said before though, I'm not against upgrades giving a team a small advantage but I don't think it should break the rule of 'punishing a player for something he couldn't have avoided'. If a 2 swipe fade can't be avoided then it is more than a small advantage. It becomes frustrating for the player.
I also agree with Techercizer that a res advantage should give you access to more equipment/lifeforms and more options (just like in cs, with flashbangs, smokes etc) rather than just making you more powerful in combat directly. Whoever is winning the res war shouldn't be a big factor in determining the outcome of a fight. It should be the players skill.
I'm fighting a Lerk, I land all three of my Shotgun hits and successfully manoeuvre around him - He kills me before I can kill him.
What have I done wrong.
I'm fighting a Fade, I land all four of my Shotgun hits and successfully manoeuvre around him - He kills me before I can kill him.
What have I done wrong.
The view that a person can't counter something is all good and well and surely people don't want to feel like a situation is unwinnable unfortunately it's not at all practical.
For the record, TF2 has plenty of one-shot abilities.
<!--quoteo(post=1942088:date=Jun 7 2012, 01:56 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ Jun 7 2012, 01:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942088"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm fighting a Lerk, I land all three of my Shotgun hits and successfully manoeuvre around him - He kills me before I can kill him.
What have I done wrong.
I'm fighting a Fade, I land all four of my Shotgun hits and successfully manoeuvre around him - He kills me before I can kill him.
What have I done wrong.
The view that a person can't counter something is all good and well and surely people don't want to feel like a situation is unwinnable unfortunately it's not at all practical.
For the record, TF2 has plenty of one-shot abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What you did wrong was go out to fight high level alien classes alone and expect to not get hit by your opponent. Also, this isn't TF2; we don't even have hats.
<!--quoteo(post=1942089:date=Jun 7 2012, 11:58 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Jun 7 2012, 11:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942089"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What you did wrong was go out to fight high level alien classes alone and expect to not get hit by your opponent. Also, this isn't TF2; we don't have hats or anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By that logic the Skulks made the mistake of attacking a Shotgun Marine alone - The TF reference is in response to whoever quoted the TF2 developer perspective to justify the removal of one-shot mechanics.
<!--quoteo(post=1942090:date=Jun 7 2012, 02:00 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ Jun 7 2012, 02:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->By that logic the Skulks made the mistake of attacking a Shotgun Marine alone - The TF reference is in response to whoever quoted the TF2 developer perspective to justify the removal of one-shot mechanics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Skulks are supposed to attack alone, Marines are supposed to group up. Kharaa get stronger when they spread their power around, and Marines get stronger when they concentrate it in one place.
Instead of changing the Shotgun's spread, why not up its rate of fire so a Marine can kill a Skulk with one shot as it closes in for melee and one shot point blank as they're dueling?
<!--quoteo(post=1942088:date=Jun 7 2012, 07:56 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ Jun 7 2012, 07:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942088"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm fighting a Lerk, I land all three of my Shotgun hits and successfully manoeuvre around him - He kills me before I can kill him.
What have I done wrong.
I'm fighting a Fade, I land all four of my Shotgun hits and successfully manoeuvre around him - He kills me before I can kill him.
What have I done wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IMO you did nothing wrong and this is exactly the situation that I said was plentiful in ns2. If you are firing with perfect aim at the maximum rate of fire your weapon can shoot and you still die then it's a problem (unless it is possible to run away and chose to engage the enemy at another time).
The shotgun sucks in the current patch. We will need to see if it is improved much in the next one. As someone said earlier in the thread, the shotgun needs to be able to one shot skulks because it's rate of fire is so slow.
Techercizer, marines don't get to choose when they engage the enemy. They can't run away from a fight. The only way they can choose where to fight the aliens is by sitting in the base (which is what you often see once the higher lifeforms appear).
<!--quoteo(post=1942092:date=Jun 7 2012, 02:09 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 7 2012, 02:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942092"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Techercizer, marines don't get to choose when they engage the enemy. They can't run away from a fight. The only way they can choose where to fight the aliens is by sitting in the base (which is what you often see once the higher lifeforms appear).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's why they should stick together and move in squads. A lone marine is easy pickings.
If you don't move your marines together and allow them to support one another, you're sacrificing security and power for mobility; this isn't a bad thing, but you shouldn't be surprised when units <b>made</b> for hit-and-run come in and capitalize on your weakness as they're supposed to.
One of the reason I like 7v7 so much is because everyone can fit comfortably into a squad of 2.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm fighting a Lerk, I land all three of my Shotgun hits and successfully manoeuvre around him - He kills me before I can kill him.
What have I done wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think there is consensus about how many shots you need to kill lifeforms, even on the skulk. So we don't even know if you did anything wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=1942088:date=Jun 7 2012, 02:56 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ Jun 7 2012, 02:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942088"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm fighting a Lerk, I land all three of my Shotgun hits and successfully manoeuvre around him - He kills me before I can kill him.
What have I done wrong.
I'm fighting a Fade, I land all four of my Shotgun hits and successfully manoeuvre around him - He kills me before I can kill him.
What have I done wrong.
The view that a person can't counter something is all good and well and surely people don't want to feel like a situation is unwinnable unfortunately it's not at all practical.
For the record, TF2 has plenty of one-shot abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What did you do wrong....I'll tell you
You came to the internet for help. Now I don't know where you grew up .... but the internet isn't full of hugs. ...and a gaming forum especially, why i wouldn't be surprised if the word hugs is deleted....or starred out.
The internet i know (and love) is full of scathing sarcasm and porn and videos of people almost killing themselves. Welcome to the internet. The internet may slap you around and tell you you are 'no good' and 'a bore in bed' ... but just ignore it ... the internet is cranky And although you don't know it, the internet loves you. The internet allows you to ... unleash your inner a$$hole. Once unleashing, you will realize that you can unleash in the real world too. Use with caution.
To be honest I think this is where a tip might be of use. If you die twice in row with no other marine within 10 meters... you should be told nicely... 'As a marine combat is more likely to be successful with more marines ...(tldr) try bringing a friend next time'
and to be honest I don't think you did anything wrong. you actually made a fairly decent point about the current balance. because even with multiple players landing 3 or 4 definite hits is a difficult thing to do. But fear not, the internet loves you.
<!--quoteo(post=1942109:date=Jun 7 2012, 03:25 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jun 7 2012, 03:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942109"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think there is consensus about how many shots you need to kill lifeforms, even on the skulk. So we don't even know if you did anything wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One shot on skulk, two on gorge, 1-2 on Lerk (depending on point-blank ALL pellets hitting and upgrades), 3 point-blank on fade, and Onos....
Considering that a skulk kills marines in 2-3 hits and they can spam bites, gorge is meant to be pretty squishy, lerk is meant to be pretty frail, and a fade can kill in 2-3 hits much faster than a shotgun fires... that sounds good to me. All the aliens fire faster than the shotgun as well. If a fade and marine are at point blank and all their attacks hit, the fade will win every time. Also add that fades, lerks, and skulks completely outmaneuver all marines.
It's not about marines "shouldn't ever be out alone or try to 1v1 things." No matter how you play the game, this situation WILL happen. When it does, a marine of exceptional skill should be able to beat almost any alien. If you need to, think of it like a scout vs a heavy at close range in TF2. Is it smart to pick that fight? No. Is it hard to win? Yes. Is it possible? It sure as hell is, if you can dodge and get the 2-3 hits in.
The other thing about that magic 2-3 hits isn't just a "balance" thing. It's a timed test. The longer that shotty vs fade fight goes, the more it turns into the fade's favor. The marine has to hit 3 perfect shots while only making one or two mistakes in his dodging. That should be rewarded, but asking them to go longer than 3 shots is just too much. It becomes too hard and un-fun, and would become similar to a marine trying to solo an onos.
This isn't to say a marine should win every fight. A 50-res fade should beat a 20-res shotgun, which is why the marine has to perform flawlessly. An alien should have to overspend if they want a guaranteed win 1v1, and that is the onos. Just think - it costs a bunch of res to get heavy/exo to "guarantee" a win vs... free skulks.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Agree that 3 hits is asking a lot considering delay in between shots, especially once performance increases and those fade fights will get hectic and scary as they'll be perfectly executed and timed. However, the somewhat recent changes in how many swipes it takes to kill armored marines helps out greatly, imo. Its much more of a battle now, giving the marine enough time if the fade gets greedy. Basically requiring a higher skill level /timing to survive for fades. I like this solution over the frustration that can occur when coming around the corner into two marines with shotguns and you end up wasting your 50 pres.
<!--quoteo(post=1940573:date=May 31 2012, 08:42 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 31 2012, 08:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940573"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In short: a change for the better was made, but adjustments weren't put in just yet. <i>Welcome to iterative development, you beta tester. :)</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hi Ironhorse, i like you and think your a really nice guy, however, i feel the need to comment on this statement you have made to make it not seem out of context- some people may get their hopes up.
<b><i>"A beta tester is someone who tests a product before it is released. Product testers help companies identify weak points in their products which could cause consumer frustration, and they also identify specific issues which need to be corrected before a product can be released. Typically, beta testers test several incarnations of a product, until it is deemed ready for release. Most commonly, beta testers work with electronics and software." </i></b> - Quoted from the first page that came up when google'd "What is a beta tester"
Therefore, if Unknown Worlds Entertainment plan to stick with the "General meaning of a beta tester" This would assume we are allowed to validly input our experiences to UWE and they should be taken into consideration in order to "identify week points", However, This is not the case as UWE has "Play Testers" which do this instead of "Beta Testers" and directly it is the play testers that get to make comments issues and/or changes with the game and i would assume UWE take them into consideration rather then the general community (us) as "beta testers".
Therefore, i believe we are not beta testers, we are just general community that provide resource. (Resource being both advertisement and finance)
Sorry to disapoint everyone who got excited when ironhorse said we are beta testers :)
Edit: This is not ment to be a rage towards any dev or play testers, i think they do really good jobs.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Playtesters are alpha testers, the community are beta testers. Their roles overlap somewhat, and in many cases playtesters will have more direct communication with the developers but it does not follow that playtester feedback gets higher priority than community feedback.
<!--quoteo(post=1942164:date=Jun 7 2012, 11:24 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Jun 7 2012, 11:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942164"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One shot on skulk, two on gorge, 1-2 on Lerk (depending on point-blank ALL pellets hitting and upgrades), 3 point-blank on fade, and Onos....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd agree with these numbers, assuming 1-4meters range.
<!--quoteo(post=1942213:date=Jun 8 2012, 01:04 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Jun 8 2012, 01:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942213"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Playtesters are alpha testers, the community are beta testers. Their roles overlap somewhat, and in many cases playtesters will have more direct communication with the developers but it does not follow that playtester feedback gets higher priority than community feedback.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ahh thanks for your feedback, i was hoping for this- May i also ask who you are?
Therefore, where is the dialog between Alpha and Beta testers and Dev's where our feedback as beta testers can be taken <u>seriously</u>?
I only ask this as i do not agree with the rage that is made on the forums every day and i think it would be better if this "Alpha/Beta tester" thing was actually rolled out in the correct manor.
"<b>Alpha testing</b> Alpha testing is simulated or actual operational testing by potential users/customers or an independent test team at the developers' site. Alpha testing is often employed for off-the-shelf software as a form of internal acceptance testing, before the software goes to beta testing."
"<b>Beta testing </b> Beta testing comes after alpha testing and can be considered a form of external user acceptance testing. Versions of the software, known as beta versions, are released to a limited audience outside of the programming team. The software is released to groups of people so that further testing can ensure the product has few faults or bugs. Sometimes, beta versions are made available to the open public to increase the feedback field to a maximal number of future users"
is which case, who is it we actually provide our feedback too? Maybe this is something that needs to be addressed on a serious note as this may increase the productivty of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1942237:date=Jun 8 2012, 08:29 AM:name=bungle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bungle @ Jun 8 2012, 08:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942237"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ahh thanks for your feedback, i was hoping for this- May i also ask who you are?
Therefore, where is the dialog between Alpha and Beta testers and Dev's where our feedback as beta testers can be taken <u>seriously</u>?
I only ask this as i do not agree with the rage that is made on the forums every day and i think it would be better if this "Alpha/Beta tester" thing was actually rolled out in the correct manor.
"<b>Alpha testing</b> Alpha testing is simulated or actual operational testing by potential users/customers or an independent test team at the developers' site. Alpha testing is often employed for off-the-shelf software as a form of internal acceptance testing, before the software goes to beta testing."
"<b>Beta testing </b> Beta testing comes after alpha testing and can be considered a form of external user acceptance testing. Versions of the software, known as beta versions, are released to a limited audience outside of the programming team. The software is released to groups of people so that further testing can ensure the product has few faults or bugs. Sometimes, beta versions are made available to the open public to increase the feedback field to a maximal number of future users"
is which case, who is it we actually provide our feedback too? Maybe this is something that needs to be addressed on a serious note as this may increase the productivty of the game.
Getting into semantics here... he's referring to the playtesters "alpha testing" new changes and patches before these changes are sent out to a wider pool of pre-order "beta testers."
Isn't it easier to get a couple dozen trusted playtesters who are scheduled to be available to find out if things work on a small scale? They get immediate feedback, can change coding mid-session, and work together as if their playtesters were employees for a time.
Sending it out to all the pre-orders is exactly like beta testing each patch. Some bugs don't show up on the dev PCs, some won't become apparent until wider pools play them, and balance will become more evident with a larger pool.
In short: Playtesters -> quick successive changes over a small period of time, working with trusted players who have contributed over time. Pre-orders -> test out these changes in a larger pool, refine what needs refining, gives time to observe stats AND fan reactions, and plan for next patch.
<!--quoteo(post=1942354:date=Jun 9 2012, 04:03 AM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Jun 9 2012, 04:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942354"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Getting into semantics here... he's referring to the playtesters "alpha testing" new changes and patches before these changes are sent out to a wider pool of pre-order "beta testers."
Isn't it easier to get a couple dozen trusted playtesters who are scheduled to be available to find out if things work on a small scale? They get immediate feedback, can change coding mid-session, and work together as if their playtesters were employees for a time.
Sending it out to all the pre-orders is exactly like beta testing each patch. Some bugs don't show up on the dev PCs, some won't become apparent until wider pools play them, and balance will become more evident with a larger pool.
In short: Playtesters -> quick successive changes over a small period of time, working with trusted players who have contributed over time. Pre-orders -> test out these changes in a larger pool, refine what needs refining, gives time to observe stats AND fan reactions, and plan for next patch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-Thanks for your feedback, however i would like to pull your attention to the following part:
<!--quoteo(post=1942354:date=Jun 9 2012, 04:03 AM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Jun 9 2012, 04:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942354"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In short: Playtesters -> quick successive changes over a small period of time, working with trusted players who have contributed over time. Pre-orders -> test out these changes in a larger pool, refine what needs refining, gives time to observe stats AND fan reactions, and plan for next patch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
FACT: Play testers aren't trusted members who have contributed over the time, about 90% of the play testers i have never heard of before and i have been playing natural selection for roughly 10 years now. However, I think its safe to say the people i WAS aware of from the "old" natural selection days who were play testers were in one way or another kicked from play testing (admittly some where also retards).
Furthermore to your comment, i would also like to highlight that when applications go out to play testing they are not (like in most case with other companies) Players that are invited Who have contributed and continue, it is actually an application on the forum in which anyone can fill out and become a play tester.
However, i further like to point out that UWE have made it clear they would like to make this game suitable for "eSports" and a largly competitive game while also trying to keep it friendly for the general public- after all, who wouldnt? The competitive market at the moment is worth millions.
And, dispite Obraxis the other day saying "<i>I am disappointed to not see more competitive gamers wanting to be play testers</i>" i have actually since spoken with numerous competitive gamers who have applied to become a play tester who have all been playing natural selection since day dot and actually all of them have had there application declined.
-
Another point i would like to highlight is you saying "<b><u>observe stats AND fan reactions</u></b>". Now this is what i am trying to get at, because as "Beta Testers" as we was called- you would assume our input would be some what... Valid?
However, what i am trying to point out is that almost every post that community makes gets COMPLETELY ignored due to the fact that with every post that is "constructive" there is a post by some moron like ADHD telling the world how UWE suck because they changed the skulk movement and he hates their lifes etc etc etc. In which case i think it has been pointed out many times that UWE have said "<i>We wont listen to the idiots that rage</i>"
Therefore, when it comes to providing constructive critism where do we go? Who do we speak with? Who is a point of contact for people who would like to add input into the game? as after all, We are "Beta Testers"
From what I've read, it seems like it doesn't matter who the Playtesters are - Because the developers don't listen to them.
Oh well, onto the roundabout of changes till Build 300 and hope the game is more balanced.
The scenario I've listed earlier was ofcourse theoritical, I can only be killed on my own by at least Three Fades, Five Lerks, Three Lerks and a Fade or Eight Gorges - I can kill an infinite amount of Onii.
I look forward to this patch, where the shotgun will presumably be overpowered.
<!--quoteo(post=1942091:date=Jun 7 2012, 04:09 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Jun 7 2012, 04:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942091"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks are supposed to attack alone, Marines are supposed to group up. Kharaa get stronger when they spread their power around, and Marines get stronger when they concentrate it in one place.
Instead of changing the Shotgun's spread, why not up its rate of fire so a Marine can kill a Skulk with one shot as it closes in for melee and one shot point blank as they're dueling?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tech skulks should not be going alone unless it for res towers. And even then they should travel together imo. :)
Also, Bungle im so glad you are going into all this info about beta testers and play testers and t comp players. As for UWE wanting PT from the competitive world they have many that would like to be. But as stated they don't listen to the PT as much as they should. Also they will not take in some comp players do to how loud they speak here on the forums. And if a PT challenges them (UWE), there most likely off the PT team.
UWE listens to everybody if they have good arguments and correct language/attitude...
But forums can be a very diffucult platform, ppl missunderstand things very quick or are just ignorant which can result in big drama. (its not easy for devs i guess) If you think you got good arguments and ideas, and feel like they are overlooked on the forums - charlie is very open/responsive via email. (from what i heard)
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1942418:date=Jun 9 2012, 04:40 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jun 9 2012, 04:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942418"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->UWE listens to everybody<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There's a big difference between listening to what somebody says and agreeing with them.
These open forums are unfortunately a poor way of getting intelligent feedback because there is a lot of "noise". Most of the posters have a very poor understanding of the game they are trying to provide feedback for, many lack basic language skills and others can't be taken seriously (a certain "competitive" poster comes to mind) -- the list goes on.
<!--quoteo(post=1942445:date=Jun 9 2012, 09:56 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jun 9 2012, 09:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942445"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's a big difference between listening to what somebody says and agreeing with them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats why email sometimes works better, you might get into proper conversations. So there is a better chance to convince devs(make them better understand your points) of your own suggestions (or at least better understand their points)
dont bother wasting time arguing with ppl in the forums (especially those certain posters :P, you have to convice nobody but devs[mainly charlie] of your ideas)
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Considering I've been posting about NS2 on these forums for about three years, and they know well who I am, and they've seemingly still paid no heed to anything I've had to say, I don't think sending an email is going to be any less of a waste of time.
At this point, my posts here are more a way to vent my frustration than anything else.
It's worrying to hear that if you disagree with UWE you get kicked off the PTs. How can you give honest feedback in that kind of environment?
Koruyo, I have emailed Charlie before but I think he ignores me now after I posted an image mocking him...oops (sorry Flayra ¬_¬
I think the thing that frustrates me the most is that I feel there is a lack of dialogue between the devs and the community. It's just like a one way conversation. Lots of the development is shrouded in secrecy. Sure, the devs post on the forums and that's awesome but often times it's just to say "we are working on that..." I think charlie in particular is sort of out of touch with the community and never really seems willing to discus things or open a dialogue. To me at least he often doesn't seem to know how the game is playing right now. I guess his focus is on the future and getting to 1.0
I don't even know if they are trying to make the game competitively viable or not... sure, Hugh casts matches and it's good for publicity but the core game needs to be designed for competitive play in mind as well. It seems to me that the majority of UWE are not hardcore players or interested in that side of things. Maybe if they had a second group of play testers that was just competitive teams they would get better feedback in this area.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited June 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1942490:date=Jun 9 2012, 04:23 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 9 2012, 04:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942490"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's worrying to hear that if you disagree with UWE you get kicked off the PTs. How can you give honest feedback in that kind of environment?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is not the case <u>at all</u>, wherever you got this information :<b> it is incorrect.</b>
More often than not, from internal forums to our camp fire chat room, to sometimes in TS3, <i>we are constantly in disagreement about things.</i> In fact, its safe to say that we disagree with things more often than not - with one another and with UWE - being a very cynical and detail oriented group. Many civil, yet passionate discussions occur in these environments - to include direct disagreements and predictions to Charlie himself. (I've done it?) Yet nobody has been fired as a result...
What will get you fired: being threatening, aggressive, uncivil, unwelcomed behavior that would be unhelpful, unnecessary and very unprofessional towards the development team.
This thread really needs to die... It hasn't been about the shotgun for some time and its already been addressed.
<!--quoteo(post=1942490:date=Jun 10 2012, 01:23 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 10 2012, 01:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942490"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's worrying to hear that if you disagree with UWE you get kicked off the PTs. How can you give honest feedback in that kind of environment?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This doesn't happen that I know of, we have had very intense discussions where people disagree with the direction of the game or the decisions taken and nothing has happened. As long as the discussion is respectful.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't even know if they are trying to make the game competitively viable or not... sure, Hugh casts matches and it's good for publicity but the core game needs to be designed for competitive play in mind as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with this, and I feel competitive play should be a core focus of the game because if the game is shallow a lot of the players will go away the second the novelty wears off, and the casts are good and all, they do the casts and then some decisions seem to go the opposite direction of what is shown to be a flaw in these casts... but that is only my opinion, of course.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't even know if they are trying to make the game competitively viable or not... sure, Hugh casts matches and it's good for publicity but the core game needs to be designed for competitive play in mind as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this, and I feel competitive play should be a core focus of the game because if the game is shallow a lot of the players will go away the second the novelty wears off, and the casts are good and all, they do the casts and then some decisions seem to go the opposite direction of what is shown to be a flaw in these casts... but that is only my opinion, of course. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with this, but I would say both public and competitive should be equally focused. But the best way to spot the true issues is to watch players who try to use every mechanic to their advantage, which is the competitive scene. Work with the scene and make sure it does not damage the public gameplay in any way.
<!--quoteo(post=1940410:date=May 31 2012, 06:53 AM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 31 2012, 06:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940410"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulk Movement got a thread and Skulk Movement don't mean jack to me. Here's how it is :
You decided to increase Lerk Health and reduce Shotgun damage in the same patch (you are such development baddies).
I shoot stuff with the Shotgun, nothing happens.
I'm by no means a Shotgun sniper, but I normally hit half the time on average across all lifeforms - And that used to be fine, but now when I shoot aliens they just laugh at me.
Unless I press the gun to their temple I can't seem to deal any damage at all, it's a little ridiculous.
Shotgun was the only reason I played this game and though I do like the new Grenade Launcher it's just not enough.
Fighting a Fade/Lerk with a Shotgun used to be a Gentleman's Challenge - Now you got no chance.
You Playtesters are baddies, UWE need to learn how to increment.
All that's left for me to do is to play on the Alien team, win 100% of my games and say 'gg' when an Onos rush takes out the power in three seconds - As if I'm somehow good at the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the only things that need to be fixed/ changed are the damn delay between firing on the shotun and then marine movement. marine basic movement is horrifically pathetic right now and needs to be redone. its blocky and robotic and inhibit basic things like jumping over a tiny object
Comments
Weapon and Armor upgrades are blanket stat upgrades that have no downsides or opportunity costs for the player. I'd rather see Weapon upgrades left to what you can research at the armory (HMG replaces lvl 3 LMG anybody?) and armor upgrades become some sort of speed/health tradeoff system players can choose from.
You may be confusing individual player perks (which generally arn't constrained by a meaningful resource system) with fundamental RTS mechanics! Yuuki hits it right on the head with the timings battle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not really a choice if not having it basically means you're screwed. Many of the upgrades are actually mandatory at certain stages of the game in order to have a reasonable chance of success. It's the same as having many gun choices with 1 being clearly the best.
As I said before though, I'm not against upgrades giving a team a small advantage but I don't think it should break the rule of 'punishing a player for something he couldn't have avoided'. If a 2 swipe fade can't be avoided then it is more than a small advantage. It becomes frustrating for the player.
I also agree with Techercizer that a res advantage should give you access to more equipment/lifeforms and more options (just like in cs, with flashbangs, smokes etc) rather than just making you more powerful in combat directly. Whoever is winning the res war shouldn't be a big factor in determining the outcome of a fight. It should be the players skill.
What have I done wrong.
I'm fighting a Fade, I land all four of my Shotgun hits and successfully manoeuvre around him - He kills me before I can kill him.
What have I done wrong.
The view that a person can't counter something is all good and well and surely people don't want to feel like a situation is unwinnable unfortunately it's not at all practical.
For the record, TF2 has plenty of one-shot abilities.
What have I done wrong.
I'm fighting a Fade, I land all four of my Shotgun hits and successfully manoeuvre around him - He kills me before I can kill him.
What have I done wrong.
The view that a person can't counter something is all good and well and surely people don't want to feel like a situation is unwinnable unfortunately it's not at all practical.
For the record, TF2 has plenty of one-shot abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you did wrong was go out to fight high level alien classes alone and expect to not get hit by your opponent. Also, this isn't TF2; we don't even have hats.
By that logic the Skulks made the mistake of attacking a Shotgun Marine alone - The TF reference is in response to whoever quoted the TF2 developer perspective to justify the removal of one-shot mechanics.
Skulks are supposed to attack alone, Marines are supposed to group up. Kharaa get stronger when they spread their power around, and Marines get stronger when they concentrate it in one place.
Instead of changing the Shotgun's spread, why not up its rate of fire so a Marine can kill a Skulk with one shot as it closes in for melee and one shot point blank as they're dueling?
What have I done wrong.
I'm fighting a Fade, I land all four of my Shotgun hits and successfully manoeuvre around him - He kills me before I can kill him.
What have I done wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IMO you did nothing wrong and this is exactly the situation that I said was plentiful in ns2. If you are firing with perfect aim at the maximum rate of fire your weapon can shoot and you still die then it's a problem (unless it is possible to run away and chose to engage the enemy at another time).
The shotgun sucks in the current patch. We will need to see if it is improved much in the next one. As someone said earlier in the thread, the shotgun needs to be able to one shot skulks because it's rate of fire is so slow.
Techercizer, marines don't get to choose when they engage the enemy. They can't run away from a fight. The only way they can choose where to fight the aliens is by sitting in the base (which is what you often see once the higher lifeforms appear).
That's why they should stick together and move in squads. A lone marine is easy pickings.
If you don't move your marines together and allow them to support one another, you're sacrificing security and power for mobility; this isn't a bad thing, but you shouldn't be surprised when units <b>made</b> for hit-and-run come in and capitalize on your weakness as they're supposed to.
One of the reason I like 7v7 so much is because everyone can fit comfortably into a squad of 2.
What have I done wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think there is consensus about how many shots you need to kill lifeforms, even on the skulk. So we don't even know if you did anything wrong.
What have I done wrong.
I'm fighting a Fade, I land all four of my Shotgun hits and successfully manoeuvre around him - He kills me before I can kill him.
What have I done wrong.
The view that a person can't counter something is all good and well and surely people don't want to feel like a situation is unwinnable unfortunately it's not at all practical.
For the record, TF2 has plenty of one-shot abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What did you do wrong....I'll tell you
You came to the internet for help.
Now I don't know where you grew up .... but the internet isn't full of hugs.
...and a gaming forum especially, why i wouldn't be surprised if the word hugs is deleted....or starred out.
The internet i know (and love) is full of scathing sarcasm and porn and videos of people almost killing themselves.
Welcome to the internet.
The internet may slap you around and tell you you are 'no good' and 'a bore in bed' ... but just ignore it ... the internet is cranky
And although you don't know it, the internet loves you.
The internet allows you to ... unleash your inner a$$hole.
Once unleashing, you will realize that you can unleash in the real world too.
Use with caution.
To be honest I think this is where a tip might be of use.
If you die twice in row with no other marine within 10 meters...
you should be told nicely...
'As a marine combat is more likely to be successful with more marines ...(tldr) try bringing a friend next time'
and to be honest I don't think you did anything wrong.
you actually made a fairly decent point about the current balance.
because even with multiple players landing 3 or 4 definite hits is a difficult thing to do.
But fear not, the internet loves you.
One shot on skulk, two on gorge, 1-2 on Lerk (depending on point-blank ALL pellets hitting and upgrades), 3 point-blank on fade, and Onos....
Considering that a skulk kills marines in 2-3 hits and they can spam bites, gorge is meant to be pretty squishy, lerk is meant to be pretty frail, and a fade can kill in 2-3 hits much faster than a shotgun fires... that sounds good to me.
All the aliens fire faster than the shotgun as well. If a fade and marine are at point blank and all their attacks hit, the fade will win every time. Also add that fades, lerks, and skulks completely outmaneuver all marines.
It's not about marines "shouldn't ever be out alone or try to 1v1 things." No matter how you play the game, this situation WILL happen. When it does, a marine of exceptional skill should be able to beat almost any alien.
If you need to, think of it like a scout vs a heavy at close range in TF2. Is it smart to pick that fight? No. Is it hard to win? Yes. Is it possible? It sure as hell is, if you can dodge and get the 2-3 hits in.
The other thing about that magic 2-3 hits isn't just a "balance" thing. It's a timed test. The longer that shotty vs fade fight goes, the more it turns into the fade's favor. The marine has to hit 3 perfect shots while only making one or two mistakes in his dodging. That should be rewarded, but asking them to go longer than 3 shots is just too much. It becomes too hard and un-fun, and would become similar to a marine trying to solo an onos.
This isn't to say a marine should win every fight. A 50-res fade should beat a 20-res shotgun, which is why the marine has to perform flawlessly. An alien should have to overspend if they want a guaranteed win 1v1, and that is the onos. Just think - it costs a bunch of res to get heavy/exo to "guarantee" a win vs... free skulks.
However, the somewhat recent changes in how many swipes it takes to kill armored marines helps out greatly, imo. Its much more of a battle now, giving the marine enough time if the fade gets greedy. Basically requiring a higher skill level /timing to survive for fades. I like this solution over the frustration that can occur when coming around the corner into two marines with shotguns and you end up wasting your 50 pres.
Hi Ironhorse, i like you and think your a really nice guy, however, i feel the need to comment on this statement you have made to make it not seem out of context- some people may get their hopes up.
<b><i>"A beta tester is someone who tests a product before it is released. Product testers help companies identify weak points in their products which could cause consumer frustration, and they also identify specific issues which need to be corrected before a product can be released. Typically, beta testers test several incarnations of a product, until it is deemed ready for release. Most commonly, beta testers work with electronics and software."
</i></b> - Quoted from the first page that came up when google'd "What is a beta tester"
Therefore, if Unknown Worlds Entertainment plan to stick with the "General meaning of a beta tester" This would assume we are allowed to validly input our experiences to UWE and they should be taken into consideration in order to "identify week points", However, This is not the case as UWE has "Play Testers" which do this instead of "Beta Testers" and directly it is the play testers that get to make comments issues and/or changes with the game and i would assume UWE take them into consideration rather then the general community (us) as "beta testers".
Therefore, i believe we are not beta testers, we are just general community that provide resource. (Resource being both advertisement and finance)
Sorry to disapoint everyone who got excited when ironhorse said we are beta testers :)
Edit: This is not ment to be a rage towards any dev or play testers, i think they do really good jobs.
I'd agree with these numbers, assuming 1-4meters range.
ahh thanks for your feedback, i was hoping for this- May i also ask who you are?
Therefore, where is the dialog between Alpha and Beta testers and Dev's where our feedback as beta testers can be taken <u>seriously</u>?
I only ask this as i do not agree with the rage that is made on the forums every day and i think it would be better if this "Alpha/Beta tester" thing was actually rolled out in the correct manor.
"<b>Alpha testing</b>
Alpha testing is simulated or actual operational testing by potential users/customers or an independent test team at the developers' site. Alpha testing is often employed for off-the-shelf software as a form of internal acceptance testing, before the software goes to beta testing."
"<b>Beta testing </b>
Beta testing comes after alpha testing and can be considered a form of external user acceptance testing. Versions of the software, known as beta versions, are released to a limited audience outside of the programming team. The software is released to groups of people so that further testing can ensure the product has few faults or bugs. Sometimes, beta versions are made available to the open public to increase the feedback field to a maximal number of future users"
is which case, who is it we actually provide our feedback too? Maybe this is something that needs to be addressed on a serious note as this may increase the productivty of the game.
Kind Regards,
Therefore, where is the dialog between Alpha and Beta testers and Dev's where our feedback as beta testers can be taken <u>seriously</u>?
I only ask this as i do not agree with the rage that is made on the forums every day and i think it would be better if this "Alpha/Beta tester" thing was actually rolled out in the correct manor.
"<b>Alpha testing</b>
Alpha testing is simulated or actual operational testing by potential users/customers or an independent test team at the developers' site. Alpha testing is often employed for off-the-shelf software as a form of internal acceptance testing, before the software goes to beta testing."
"<b>Beta testing </b>
Beta testing comes after alpha testing and can be considered a form of external user acceptance testing. Versions of the software, known as beta versions, are released to a limited audience outside of the programming team. The software is released to groups of people so that further testing can ensure the product has few faults or bugs. Sometimes, beta versions are made available to the open public to increase the feedback field to a maximal number of future users"
is which case, who is it we actually provide our feedback too? Maybe this is something that needs to be addressed on a serious note as this may increase the productivty of the game.
Kind Regards,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Getting into semantics here... he's referring to the playtesters "alpha testing" new changes and patches before these changes are sent out to a wider pool of pre-order "beta testers."
Isn't it easier to get a couple dozen trusted playtesters who are scheduled to be available to find out if things work on a small scale? They get immediate feedback, can change coding mid-session, and work together as if their playtesters were employees for a time.
Sending it out to all the pre-orders is exactly like beta testing each patch. Some bugs don't show up on the dev PCs, some won't become apparent until wider pools play them, and balance will become more evident with a larger pool.
In short:
Playtesters -> quick successive changes over a small period of time, working with trusted players who have contributed over time.
Pre-orders -> test out these changes in a larger pool, refine what needs refining, gives time to observe stats AND fan reactions, and plan for next patch.
Isn't it easier to get a couple dozen trusted playtesters who are scheduled to be available to find out if things work on a small scale? They get immediate feedback, can change coding mid-session, and work together as if their playtesters were employees for a time.
Sending it out to all the pre-orders is exactly like beta testing each patch. Some bugs don't show up on the dev PCs, some won't become apparent until wider pools play them, and balance will become more evident with a larger pool.
In short:
Playtesters -> quick successive changes over a small period of time, working with trusted players who have contributed over time.
Pre-orders -> test out these changes in a larger pool, refine what needs refining, gives time to observe stats AND fan reactions, and plan for next patch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-Thanks for your feedback, however i would like to pull your attention to the following part:
<!--quoteo(post=1942354:date=Jun 9 2012, 04:03 AM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Jun 9 2012, 04:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942354"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In short:
Playtesters -> quick successive changes over a small period of time, working with trusted players who have contributed over time.
Pre-orders -> test out these changes in a larger pool, refine what needs refining, gives time to observe stats AND fan reactions, and plan for next patch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
FACT: Play testers aren't trusted members who have contributed over the time, about 90% of the play testers i have never heard of before and i have been playing natural selection for roughly 10 years now. However, I think its safe to say the people i WAS aware of from the "old" natural selection days who were play testers were in one way or another kicked from play testing (admittly some where also retards).
Furthermore to your comment, i would also like to highlight that when applications go out to play testing they are not (like in most case with other companies) Players that are invited Who have contributed and continue, it is actually an application on the forum in which anyone can fill out and become a play tester.
However, i further like to point out that UWE have made it clear they would like to make this game suitable for "eSports" and a largly competitive game while also trying to keep it friendly for the general public- after all, who wouldnt? The competitive market at the moment is worth millions.
And, dispite Obraxis the other day saying "<i>I am disappointed to not see more competitive gamers wanting to be play testers</i>" i have actually since spoken with numerous competitive gamers who have applied to become a play tester who have all been playing natural selection since day dot and actually all of them have had there application declined.
-
Another point i would like to highlight is you saying "<b><u>observe stats AND fan reactions</u></b>". Now this is what i am trying to get at, because as "Beta Testers" as we was called- you would assume our input would be some what... Valid?
However, what i am trying to point out is that almost every post that community makes gets COMPLETELY ignored due to the fact that with every post that is "constructive" there is a post by some moron like ADHD telling the world how UWE suck because they changed the skulk movement and he hates their lifes etc etc etc. In which case i think it has been pointed out many times that UWE have said "<i>We wont listen to the idiots that rage</i>"
Therefore, when it comes to providing constructive critism where do we go? Who do we speak with? Who is a point of contact for people who would like to add input into the game? as after all, We are "Beta Testers"
If not possible then at least exact number how many there are.
Oh well, onto the roundabout of changes till Build 300 and hope the game is more balanced.
The scenario I've listed earlier was ofcourse theoritical, I can only be killed on my own by at least Three Fades, Five Lerks, Three Lerks and a Fade or Eight Gorges - I can kill an infinite amount of Onii.
I look forward to this patch, where the shotgun will presumably be overpowered.
Instead of changing the Shotgun's spread, why not up its rate of fire so a Marine can kill a Skulk with one shot as it closes in for melee and one shot point blank as they're dueling?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tech skulks should not be going alone unless it for res towers. And even then they should travel together imo. :)
Also, Bungle im so glad you are going into all this info about beta testers and play testers and t comp players. As for UWE wanting PT from the competitive world they have many that would like to be. But as stated they don't listen to the PT as much as they should. Also they will not take in some comp players do to how loud they speak here on the forums. And if a PT challenges them (UWE), there most likely off the PT team.
But forums can be a very diffucult platform, ppl missunderstand things very quick or are just ignorant which can result in big drama. (its not easy for devs i guess)
If you think you got good arguments and ideas, and feel like they are overlooked on the forums - charlie is very open/responsive via email. (from what i heard)
There's a big difference between listening to what somebody says and agreeing with them.
These open forums are unfortunately a poor way of getting intelligent feedback because there is a lot of "noise". Most of the posters have a very poor understanding of the game they are trying to provide feedback for, many lack basic language skills and others can't be taken seriously (a certain "competitive" poster comes to mind) -- the list goes on.
Thats why email sometimes works better, you might get into proper conversations. So there is a better chance to convince devs(make them better understand your points) of your own suggestions (or at least better understand their points)
dont bother wasting time arguing with ppl in the forums (especially those certain posters :P, you have to convice nobody but devs[mainly charlie] of your ideas)
At this point, my posts here are more a way to vent my frustration than anything else.
Koruyo, I have emailed Charlie before but I think he ignores me now after I posted an image mocking him...oops (sorry Flayra ¬_¬
I think the thing that frustrates me the most is that I feel there is a lack of dialogue between the devs and the community. It's just like a one way conversation. Lots of the development is shrouded in secrecy. Sure, the devs post on the forums and that's awesome but often times it's just to say "we are working on that..." I think charlie in particular is sort of out of touch with the community and never really seems willing to discus things or open a dialogue. To me at least he often doesn't seem to know how the game is playing right now. I guess his focus is on the future and getting to 1.0
I don't even know if they are trying to make the game competitively viable or not... sure, Hugh casts matches and it's good for publicity but the core game needs to be designed for competitive play in mind as well. It seems to me that the majority of UWE are not hardcore players or interested in that side of things. Maybe if they had a second group of play testers that was just competitive teams they would get better feedback in this area.
This is not the case <u>at all</u>, wherever you got this information :<b> it is incorrect.</b>
More often than not, from internal forums to our camp fire chat room, to sometimes in TS3, <i>we are constantly in disagreement about things.</i> In fact, its safe to say that we disagree with things more often than not - with one another and with UWE - being a very cynical and detail oriented group. Many civil, yet passionate discussions occur in these environments - to include direct disagreements and predictions to Charlie himself. (I've done it?) Yet nobody has been fired as a result...
What will get you fired: being threatening, aggressive, uncivil, unwelcomed behavior that would be unhelpful, unnecessary and very unprofessional towards the development team.
This thread really needs to die...
It hasn't been about the shotgun for some time and its already been addressed.
This doesn't happen that I know of, we have had very intense discussions where people disagree with the direction of the game or the decisions taken and nothing has happened. As long as the discussion is respectful.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't even know if they are trying to make the game competitively viable or not... sure, Hugh casts matches and it's good for publicity but the core game needs to be designed for competitive play in mind as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this, and I feel competitive play should be a core focus of the game because if the game is shallow a lot of the players will go away the second the novelty wears off, and the casts are good and all, they do the casts and then some decisions seem to go the opposite direction of what is shown to be a flaw in these casts... but that is only my opinion, of course.
I agree with this, and I feel competitive play should be a core focus of the game because if the game is shallow a lot of the players will go away the second the novelty wears off, and the casts are good and all, they do the casts and then some decisions seem to go the opposite direction of what is shown to be a flaw in these casts... but that is only my opinion, of course.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this, but I would say both public and competitive should be equally focused. But the best way to spot the true issues is to watch players who try to use every mechanic to their advantage, which is the competitive scene. Work with the scene and make sure it does not damage the public gameplay in any way.
You decided to increase Lerk Health and reduce Shotgun damage in the same patch (you are such development baddies).
I shoot stuff with the Shotgun, nothing happens.
I'm by no means a Shotgun sniper, but I normally hit half the time on average across all lifeforms - And that used to be fine, but now when I shoot aliens they just laugh at me.
Unless I press the gun to their temple I can't seem to deal any damage at all, it's a little ridiculous.
Shotgun was the only reason I played this game and though I do like the new Grenade Launcher it's just not enough.
Fighting a Fade/Lerk with a Shotgun used to be a Gentleman's Challenge - Now you got no chance.
You Playtesters are baddies, UWE need to learn how to increment.
All that's left for me to do is to play on the Alien team, win 100% of my games and say 'gg' when an Onos rush takes out the power in three seconds - As if I'm somehow good at the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the only things that need to be fixed/ changed are the damn delay between firing on the shotun and then marine movement. marine basic movement is horrifically pathetic right now and needs to be redone. its blocky and robotic and inhibit basic things like jumping over a tiny object