Free hydras need to go.
AurOn2
COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
<div class="IPBDescription">Yes, another post.</div>I'm making a big "whats good about pres hydras" Google doc.
<a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SBHsMjxR-OzL8MxAQlJb6-cs9xOP_JpidOCFYAUYA9E/edit" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SBHsMjx...OCFYAUYA9E/edit</a>
There we go.
Also i love how people are saying how Free hydras force you to stay gorge all game
Nup
Never seen someone perma gorge since free hydras came in
Not once.
Period.
But pre free hydras. People would dedicate themselves to doing multiple things:
Healing, Making sure life forms (not hydras) stayed alive
Placing DEFENSES to hives. harvesters etc.
Being a SUPPORT class in general. Not "just another class who also uses energy to use his abilities"
He fit in his role perfectly. He was unique, and no way A clone of all the other ones but with mixed in healing and static defense droping capabilities.
Now. He is that last sentence.
Nobody stays gorge.
Hell most of the people i knew who always, ALWAYS, went gorge.
Never do.
At least in my experience.
Also
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People always used them even when they cost p-res, but in their current incarnation you have absolutely no investment in them, and they have no impact on alien economy whatsoever, which seems very strange for a turret-structure in a resource-focused game. Instead of being used defensively they are often being spammed at the front lines and when things look bad and the hydras might die, the gorge can just run away and re-establish a new fallback. If you're going to do something risky like that I think it should have some penalty if it fails and be rewarding when it succeeds. At the moment it is simply rewarding and never penalizing.
Maybe they could give them a bit more health or something if they were to cost res. But they should not be free.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you wanna bring back the old hydras (or a new model!) please link to this page!
<a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SBHsMjxR-OzL8MxAQlJb6-cs9xOP_JpidOCFYAUYA9E/edit" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SBHsMjx...OCFYAUYA9E/edit</a>
There we go.
Also i love how people are saying how Free hydras force you to stay gorge all game
Nup
Never seen someone perma gorge since free hydras came in
Not once.
Period.
But pre free hydras. People would dedicate themselves to doing multiple things:
Healing, Making sure life forms (not hydras) stayed alive
Placing DEFENSES to hives. harvesters etc.
Being a SUPPORT class in general. Not "just another class who also uses energy to use his abilities"
He fit in his role perfectly. He was unique, and no way A clone of all the other ones but with mixed in healing and static defense droping capabilities.
Now. He is that last sentence.
Nobody stays gorge.
Hell most of the people i knew who always, ALWAYS, went gorge.
Never do.
At least in my experience.
Also
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People always used them even when they cost p-res, but in their current incarnation you have absolutely no investment in them, and they have no impact on alien economy whatsoever, which seems very strange for a turret-structure in a resource-focused game. Instead of being used defensively they are often being spammed at the front lines and when things look bad and the hydras might die, the gorge can just run away and re-establish a new fallback. If you're going to do something risky like that I think it should have some penalty if it fails and be rewarding when it succeeds. At the moment it is simply rewarding and never penalizing.
Maybe they could give them a bit more health or something if they were to cost res. But they should not be free.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you wanna bring back the old hydras (or a new model!) please link to this page!
Comments
If there's any way to abuse a feature, DO NOT add it. for it will not solve anything.
Little tweaks arent fixing squatt. They are just encouraging the problem.
Hydras have always had some sort of problem. However the problem now is that they are too cheap. For 10 res the gorge gets a lot. Plus the marine side has no real equivalent to hold territory like that early game (though they really need something) or a counter for it early game. Marines have mines, but they are not as effective at holding territory and they are expensive in comparison. GLs come mid game when the game could already be decided.
It made me /facepalm. Free stuff is never good in an RTS. Especially hydras, they simply should NOT be free.
Anyway, 3 or 4 aliens rush gorge and find our base with skulk cover and they then throw down all their hydras in the adjacent room to our base and then slowly move them forward (hydras don't take long to build when you have a lot of gorges building them). So, on tram, we were in server and they came in from north tunnels, and mineshaft we were drill in which they came from operations.
Those couple of gorges were able to completely change my strategy. As most of you who have experienced this, a whole marine team at the start of the game is no match for a couple of gorges spamming their hydras, healing each other, and inching into base. To counter this, I had to keep most of my team in my base (instead of expanding) and RUSH AA and nades. Then, usually around the 5 minute mark, we can finally clear them out and push out again. Why is this bad though? Because I'm seriously behind the power curve in that I now had very few, if any (excluding base) RT's. I've been forced to waste early valuable res, and aliens are now in extreme position to control the map.
Usually I like to push pg and lock down the opposite tech point and then hold the RT's in between but this gorge tactic completely alters that. Now, this wouldn't be a bad thing if it had a downside for the aliens (all in type moves), but it doesn't. They lose 10 pres each (30-40 total for the gorges) and their free hydras (yay marine victory). Woopty dooooo. I lose map control, initiative, and VALUABLE early game res that would have been much better spent on mobility and upgrades.
From what I've seen, even 4 gorges (and hydras) are no match for 4 marines. Sounds like your problem may have been that you kept your team in base and rushed the AA and nades. I would have rushed turrets, dropped two (only two! no more) pointing at the entrance (just to stop them from coming into the room), sent all but one marine out the other door to hunt res, and start researching ARCs. This is the typical counter I've seen and it works pretty well.
Granted Marines are usually struggling a while to catch up with upgrades, but its more a matter of how many RTs they've gotten - not that one base entrance is blocked. As long as the Comm doesn't fall into "Turtle Mode," they can usually pull out of it.
From what I've seen, even 4 gorges (and hydras) are no match for 4 marines. Sounds like your problem may have been that you kept your team in base and rushed the AA and nades. I would have rushed turrets, dropped two (only two! no more) pointing at the entrance (just to stop them from coming into the room), sent all but one marine out the other door to hunt res, and start researching ARCs. This is the typical counter I've seen and it works pretty well.
Granted Marines are usually struggling a while to catch up with upgrades, but its more a matter of how many RTs they've gotten - not that one base entrance is blocked. As long as the Comm doesn't fall into "Turtle Mode," they can usually pull out of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
4-5 gorges an win np. You keep the mariens busy with the gorges. They don't get much for res. And then teh alien comm goes bilebomb ASAP and gg.
The things are extremely weak, when i play gorge im lucky if the hydra stays alive long enough to even start shooting the enemy, no less killing them.
Here is a list of solutions for you.
1. Shoot the gorge healing the hydras, believe it or not gorges tend to die if you unload 1 full clip of LMG ammo into them, 2 marines should have no issue doing this.
2. Shoot the hydras, again these things are weak as ######, 2 marines can easily mop up.
3. Get Grenade launchers and "Nuke em rico"
4. If your team is incompetent to the point that none of the above 3 solutions work, use ARCs.
Seriously the biggest use of hydras is they make inexperienced marines think an area should be avoided.
Are they going to design all the maps around denying vent gorges, or simply fix the free hydra problem? In an extremely risky place like in a choke point right outside the marine base, or a more gimmicky one like the top vent in a marine base, the outcome is the same- the gorge has 0 investment in the hydras he places. There is no risk vs. reward, there is only reward.
I don't see how you can look at something like Hydras in this team based, resource driven game and be like "yeah, those are totally fine."
Make hydras only placeable on creep. This would remove the ability for them to vent spam them in the early games
Gorges should only be able to build (heal spray) their own hydras though.
Feels like an exploit when I build 3 hydras in a doorway and healing non stop, rebuilding as they are focus fired. Held the adjacent area to marine spawn with another gorge for the entire game.
<!--quoteo(post=1942316:date=Jun 8 2012, 05:09 PM:name=Jekt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jekt @ Jun 8 2012, 05:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942316"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At the very least, the delay between hydras being killed by a marine and having the ability to rebuild them needs to be extended.
Feels like an exploit when I build 3 hydras in a doorway and healing non stop, rebuilding as they are focus fired. Held the adjacent area to marine spawn with another gorge for the entire game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
After one of your hydras dies or gets deleted there already is a good 10-15 sec delay before your count of hydras goes back down to 2/3.
Because you shouldn't have to spend res to use your own ability.
It's about as ridiculous as "Pay 10 Res to switch to your Axe!"
It's about as ridiculous as "Pay 10 Res to switch to your Axe!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hydras =/= player ability. They are static AI defense structures and they take no skill, attention or other human resource to use.
That's like saying "yeah, whips are a commander ability therefore they should be free".
It's about as ridiculous as "Pay 10 Res to switch to your Axe!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, abilities should only cost energy, not res - that said the hydra is an ability that is unique. Perhaps some fundamental changes to the hydra may have more benefit than a return of the previous res model.
That's like saying "yeah, whips are a commander ability therefore they should be free".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm gonna play devil's advocate and say that there is some skill in having a clever and strategic place to place the hydras
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->take no attention<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It does take attention to use hydras if you want to use it well (aka maintenance).
And given the already vulnerable nature of the Gorge, I really see no trade off if one were to pay res again for Hydras, because after that, you're really just wasting res risking yourself as a Gorge.
There's already enough risk being a Gorge as it is.
They are a bit comparable to the energy-based cysts. As a marine I feel no accomplishment killing a hydra because I know I've cost the enemy team exactly nothing.
So again, paying res for hydras might suck, but free hydras are <i>far</i> more problematic.
Far more problematic because people are actually using them as opposed to paying res like before, but that's arguable.
If paying res were to be an option, I'd only accept it if it made you use res once your hydras were matured...then again that could be abused as well by simply recycling over and over.
Tbh, the only problems I've had as a Marine was the Onos. Hydras are soooo easy to destroy with a squad. I've nothing else to input besides one last thing as a Marine:
Stop ramboing.
Maybe they could give them a bit more health or something if they were to cost res. But they should not be free.
Atleast with teh OC chambes in NS1 you could build them and leave them as they had enough HP to give a little bit of warning that they needed to be defended before they would die.
If hydras are to cost res then they need a big buff (back up to OC chamber levels or close to that of a RT (maybe 75%)) otherwise they just wont get used...though I am sure a lot of people who like to play marines dont see this as an issue.
Sure fighting against hydras is not fun...but neither is fighting against sentries or sieges.
You could even go a step further and force each gorge to choose to specialize in one or the other, but that may be taking it a bit too far.
Yah, I forgot to post that earlier.
Interesting how they are limited to 3 to maintain balance. I use to drop them everywhere :p
This glob ability is good too.
If you could increase number to 5 or 6, but have proximity for 3 per area, that would be fun :)