If not bhop , how would you introduce skill based movement ? What would it involve ? It should be intuitive, and not require a training video to understand what to do.
Hmm, something like adding a ramp up acceleration to marines sprint to a cap, but on colliding it stops the marine dead which means the marine must re-gain his top speed by accelerating again. Would that count ? Its movement, and it requires the player not bump into things (skill) to keep maximum speed.
<!--quoteo(post=1945535:date=Jun 21 2012, 02:12 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Jun 21 2012, 02:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945535"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If not bhop , how would you introduce skill based movement ? What would it involve ? It should be intuitive, and not require a training video to understand what to do.
Hmm, something like adding a ramp up acceleration to marines sprint to a cap, but on colliding it stops the marine dead which means the marine must re-gain his top speed by accelerating again. Would that count ? Its movement, and it requires the player not bump into things (skill) to keep maximum speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would involve bhop. Make it so it allows you to keep +forward pressed since i guess thats what most people have difficulty to grasp, soften the timing like it was/is in the current wallhop(the quicker you jump again the more speed you get, but dont lose all if its slightly late). To combat the ridiculous claim that it was just scripting, put in the mechanic that, again, already was in the wallhop but taken away for some reason, that if you execute +jump in air you drop to normal run speed.
Also, the current wallhop for skulk is just as hard to grasp as bunnyhop is.
For the marines, what you propose would not work at all. It would take full 5 seconds to master it. All you really need is more control on the jump, so you can better use the enviroment to your advantage in, and out of combat. NS1 honestly nailed it there. Maybe take out wigglewalk and wallstrafe if you really have to.
The whole point is to have something that you can never fully master, theres always room for improvement. With speedcaps and easy mechanics to hit it, thats not possible. Im not saying you should be able to go get huge speeds with ease. It should be hard, and you should always be able to get better timing, better usage of map, better and more precise aircontrol to get better and better at it.
If you dont have any of that, the game gets boring really fast and like i said, i personally only find any joy in playing as the skulk anymore, or as a marine training my aim/positioning. And thats with what, 2-3 months of active playing while i really would like to play this game for years to come.
I will repeat, that I like skulk's walljump over bunnyhopping because it gives you more freedom of movement, because you can control the height of your jump by looking higher up or lower down. In any game's bunnyhop, you jump predictably at the same height all the time.
A bit sad to see it has been nerfed so much. Hopefully it will be set to some better values soon; if not, gotta mod it.
<!--quoteo(post=1945526:date=Jun 21 2012, 11:25 AM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Jun 21 2012, 11:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945526"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So... I take it then as NS2 hasnt got bunny hopping , NS 2 doesnt need any skill whatsoever and all the clan matches thats been on NS2 have demonstrated absolutely no skill at all ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pretty much. It hinges far more on understanding each build and abusing all the quirks than it ever has on skill. The average skill-level is shocking, even amongst the best NS2 clans (no disrespect; i'm including myself). Every encounter feels like rolling dice and hoping for the best and I have yet to feel really punished for face-palming my spacebar key in combat, even against the best players. This is in part due to broken mechanics like ARC-trains, nano-shield/construct and oddity that is wallhop. Fades still retain their one-button super-damage-reduction skill to get out of even the toughest situations and the onos is the biggest dice roll of all - it's very hard to tell whether it will win you the game by destroying the win-button powernode or whether it'll just get chased into oblivion by lmgs and/or jetpacks because of it's clunky movement system. Game outcomes seem to have very little correlation with K:D, too.
<!--quoteo(post=1945546:date=Jun 21 2012, 12:44 PM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Jun 21 2012, 12:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945546"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I will repeat, that I like skulk's walljump over bunnyhopping because it gives you more freedom of movement, because you can control the height of your jump by looking higher up or lower down. In any game's bunnyhop, you jump predictably at the same height all the time.
A bit sad to see it has been nerfed so much. Hopefully it will be set to some better values soon; if not, gotta mod it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sadly, I think that the reason you like it is also one of the reasons why it doesn't work that well. The bunnyhop gave speed at the cost of predictability and, even at the very highest level, players would still opt for ambushes, floor-based movement and even the NS1 walljump with respectable success rates. NS2 wallhopping, on the other hand, has absolutely no downside. It is both the skulk's source of speed and unpredictability and means that you will *always* have to use it if you plan to be any good. The mechanic is more difficult to execute (especially with all the complex geometry that clutters maps), more punishing when you fail a jump (takes far longer to build up maximum speed) and is more unpredictable than ever (looking slightly up or down will radically alter your path and this difference in viewing direction is <i>barely</i> detectable for marines). Add to this, the fact that it isn't exactly intuitive and that breaking my spacebar key is a more than valid strategy in close-quarter combat and it's no wonder that people are pining for the old bunnyhop.
<!--quoteo(post=1945550:date=Jun 21 2012, 08:13 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jun 21 2012, 08:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945550"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pretty much. It hinges far more on understanding each build and abusing all the quirks than it ever has on skill. The average skill-level is shocking, even amongst the best NS2 clans (no disrespect; i'm including myself). Every encounter feels like rolling dice and hoping for the best and I have yet to feel really punished for face-palming my spacebar key in combat, even against the best players. This is in part due to broken mechanics like ARC-trains, nano-shield/construct and oddity that is wallhop. Fades still retain their one-button super-damage-reduction skill to get out of even the toughest situations and the onos is the biggest dice roll of all - it's very hard to tell whether it will win you the game by destroying the win-button powernode or whether it'll just get chased into oblivion by lmgs and/or jetpacks because of it's clunky movement system. Game outcomes seem to have very little correlation with K:D, too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You should be playing the competitive mod for clan games or gathers because it fixes nearly every one of those problems that you listed!
<!--quoteo(post=1945614:date=Jun 22 2012, 02:00 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Jun 22 2012, 02:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945614"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does anyone else feel that marine movement is sluggish, or is that just me?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its been sluggish ever since build 198 or whenever it was the movement system overhaul was done. The result was marines no longer snapped into a direction, but instead accelerated slowly causing the sluggish feeling (shorter left/right strafe distance given a fixed time interval). You can also see this clearly by noticing that sprint does not snap you to sprint speed as it once did but instead gradually accelerates you. Basically, it was UWE saying "we don't want marines to have much movement potential".
Imo, the problem is not marine base speed, but responsiveness.
I don't like skulk walk jump. I'd much rather see bunnyhopping, as bunnyhopping gives you many more diverse ways of movement as opposed to skulk wall jumping.
Skulks running towards a wall make themselves the easiest targets, especially to shotguns.
Speaking of 'skill based' movement, when are they going to review the current incarnation of celerity? :s Or rename it to something appropriate like 'Warp 9'
<!--quoteo(post=1945614:date=Jun 21 2012, 04:00 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Jun 21 2012, 04:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945614"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does anyone else feel that marine movement is sluggish, or is that just me?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> High gravity has been a pain in the arse since forever. You're basically forced to walk around everything, as most railings are literally only a few inches too high to jump over (troll-railings!), and while boxes often can be jumped over, there are some around that just have some kind of invisi-wall (troll-boxes!). It would be nice if marines could utilize jump a bit more outside of the spamming in melee-encounters, which brings us to:
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Pretty much. It hinges far more on understanding each build and abusing all the quirks than it ever has on skill. The average skill-level is shocking, even amongst the best NS2 clans (no disrespect; i'm including myself). Every encounter feels like rolling dice and hoping for the best and I have yet to feel really punished for face-palming my spacebar key in combat, even against the best players. This is in part due to broken mechanics like ARC-trains, nano-shield/construct and oddity that is wallhop. Fades still retain their one-button super-damage-reduction skill to get out of even the toughest situations and the onos is the biggest dice roll of all - it's very hard to tell whether it will win you the game by destroying the win-button powernode or whether it'll just get chased into oblivion by lmgs and/or jetpacks because of it's clunky movement system. Game outcomes seem to have very little correlation with K:D, too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You should be playing the competitive mod for clan games or gathers because it fixes nearly every one of those problems that you listed!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> One thing it probably doesn't fix are the animations. It seems odd, seeing as skulks in NS2 are a whole lot larger than in NS1, they're still incredibly difficult to hit. I feel most of it is down to the animations, the jump-animation specifically, or rather the lack thereof. When a skulk jumps it basically gets into an arc-pose, and just hovers through the air and predictability of his next move is just gone. It could move anywhere in mid-air, and the animation is telling you nothing. In NS1 you could quite clearly anticipate which spot a skulk was moving towards while it was in the air (a part of that is bunnyhopping and its predictability, but it also feels like NS2-skulks actually jump a lot higher than their NS1-counterparts, or so it comes across anyway, the transition from ground to air is also very abrupt, making it hard to track a hopping skulk). All of this makes a skulk-marine encounter a dice-roll mostly.
There is definitely a problem with the animations. It seems to get worse when things are moving at 10++ speeds and/or the server bogs down. Right now you have a few bad things combining and compounding each other.
Just think about how many times you get skeeted out of the air in NS2. I'm talking full on 1 shot by a shotgun during a leap at a marine. Probably never. I personally can't remember ever being killed mid leap from full hp. Now think about left4dead competitive games. It was common practice to skeet pouncing hunters and you weren't good if you couldn't consistently do it.
<!--quoteo(post=1945424:date=Jun 20 2012, 11:43 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Jun 20 2012, 11:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945424"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, the point of phoon's videos is to make fun of CS players who have no self-awareness or respect for good FPS games whatsoever.
I can name quite a few contemporary shooter games that aren't realistic, but don't feature any Quake-style movement mechanics. I'm not sure what you mean by 'jumpy' but it seems like a really subjective thing (is counterstrike 'jumpy'? is warsow? TF2? halo?)
Also, it's not as simple as scripting the act of bunnyhopping. Please go to youtube and search 'defrag', watch a few videos and then write down a mockup of the script that performs them. You can also search for 'hal9000' or 'cpma' and do the same. If it seems like the things players do in those videos cannot be scripted, it's because the players were performing things that depend on dynamic game situations (opponents' positions/choices etc) or extremely complicated trickjumping maps, which is exactly what makes skill-based movement exciting. High-level Quake players who have great movement aren't dedicating their time to holding down mouse3 and running a script. I have yet to see anyone who actually plays defrag/cpma come out and say there is nothing skillful about movement in those games, because it would be the most absurd thing to ever happen on this planet. Give me a break!
It's clear that quite a few people are wishing for the movement mechanics of NS1 to make a comeback in NS2 (take a look at TrueVeritas' thread for a good example video), and it's not because they're clinging to a silly exploit or a nonsense game design trend. It's because that style of movement is fun and creates memorable game experiences. The absence of it creates fewer memorable experiences, because nothing put 'in its place' ever seems to compare.
It was taken out of CS because it absolutely does not fit that game at all. It was left in numerous games on the same engine, because it did fit them. How experienced are you with movement in TFC, AG, SI, NS and so on? Those are all successful, historically-significant Half-Life mods that hinge on Quake-style movement.
So, there we have it. The same old bhop arguments everyone repeats without understanding the subject: <ul><li>"It's just an engine bug!" - tons of people like it and it was deliberately put in more games than it was taken out of, even if it was <i>originally</i> an unintended side effect</li><li>"All you need to do is script it" - no, that's simply not true and there are a bazillion counterexamples</li></ul> Feel free to stop posting these things in threads about movement. Thanks!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the sort of attitude that makes me not post much on here now. But, I have my opinion and I wont apologise for that. I get the feeling the elitist minority on here would love the likes of me to disappear but I wont.
I am a 47 year old gamer who has probably gamed longer than some folk on here have been alive lol. I know the ins and outs of the HL1 engine and understand it thoroughly, and that some games kept it and some didn't. Yes CS didn't suit bhopping but in my opinion, and many others, neither does NS2, and it just downright looks stupid. It was as you rightly state as did I that it was an error/mistake. Its ok in death match or CTF type games such as TFC or Quake but not in what it billed as a RTS/FPS hybrid. Put bhopping into a game like NS2 and it makes any sort of strategy or depth a joke and it becomes Aliens v Marines death match. I play TF2 sometimes and the players in that have less jumping than the marines in NS2 and that is just wrong. The marines have way enough movement as it is and Skulks for example have been given a lot more movement than I think UW intended, I suspect to pander for the old NS1 crowd. I took a break from NS1 and I returned to find every server full of elitist players barking orders at everybody, bhopping around the map. I soon left and didn't return as did my friends. Very few people were on to be honest I wasn't really surprised. I had hoped NS2 would take the idea of the original game and refine and add to it and make it appeal to a lot more people than just the competitive crowd. UW are game lovers yes but are also a business now.
95% of people who buy NS2 will have no interest in competitive gaming and if it is made so that only a few people with lots of hours to spare are able master every nuance, then the game will frustrate those with only a few hours to spare and ultimately they will leave. The competition is fierce out there and NS2 has a chance to bring something new to the table. If it becomes another of the many types of games we already have, I will be very disappointed.
<!--quoteo(post=1945687:date=Jun 22 2012, 05:39 AM:name=Salraine_Chi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ Jun 22 2012, 05:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945687"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->95% of people who buy NS2 will have no interest in competitive gaming and if it is made so that only a few people with lots of hours to spare are able master every nuance, then the game will frustrate those with only a few hours to spare and ultimately they will leave. The competition is fierce out there and NS2 has a chance to bring something new to the table. If it becomes another of the many types of games we already have, I will be very disappointed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW6254xD1Hg&feature=relmfu#t=13m50s" target="_blank">www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW6254xD1Hg&feature=relmfu#t=13m50s</a> Related question and good answer from the biscuit in which he talks about the importance of a good movement system. I recommend you watching this instead since it seems almost impossible for some of us to not be misinterpreted as having an attitude when disagreeing.
What does hours to spare have anything to do with frustration? I, and many others i would hope want NS2 to be a good game with a long lifespan. A game with actual depth that isn't mastered in "a few hours" and quickly becomes boring. Sure accessibility is important, but come on lets be real now. If anything, there is a <b>distinct lack</b> of depth in the many FPS games currently being churned out by the industry.
So who decides who is "pro" and not "pro" I see a handfull of ns1 "vets" saying the talent in ns2 right now is nothing. Do they have a magic ball or something?
<!--quoteo(post=1945718:date=Jun 21 2012, 05:44 PM:name=JuCCi-PuCCi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JuCCi-PuCCi @ Jun 21 2012, 05:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945718"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pretty good video elodea.
So who decides who is "pro" and not "pro" I see a handfull of ns1 "vets" saying the talent in ns2 right now is nothing. Do the have a magic ball or something?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's all relative. In nearly every game, the "pros" are always trash compared to "pros" from some other game, like quake or SC2.
Obviously the "talent" in a game that has been out negative three months is nothing compared to a game that had been released for years.
<!--quoteo(post=1945687:date=Jun 21 2012, 03:39 PM:name=Salraine_Chi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ Jun 21 2012, 03:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945687"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->95% of people who buy NS2 will have no interest in competitive gaming and if it is made so that only a few people with lots of hours to spare are able master every nuance, then the game will frustrate those with only a few hours to spare and ultimately they will leave. The competition is fierce out there and NS2 has a chance to bring something new to the table. If it becomes another of the many types of games we already have, I will be very disappointed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why do people act like it takes a tremendous amount of effort to learn basic movement mechanics? I'll bet $100 I can teach you to bhop perfectly in Quake/HL faster than a new player can learn to walljump effectively in NS2.
I don't think NS1 has few players because it's hard to learn/frustrating...it might just be the fact that the game is <b>10 years old</b>.
I think if NS2 is going to 'bring something new to the table', copying bad console FPS trends is the last way it should go about doing that. Having shallow game mechanics because 'somebody might get frustrated' is a great way to put a game on a 6 month clock at release (after which nobody plays it anymore and they move on to the next $70 sequel/rehash).
Nobody is saying you should have to be a world class defrag player to enjoy NS2, but that doesn't mean having mechanics like that in the game would be doing harm.
<!--quoteo(post=1945718:date=Jun 21 2012, 05:44 PM:name=JuCCi-PuCCi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JuCCi-PuCCi @ Jun 21 2012, 05:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945718"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So who decides who is "pro" and not "pro" I see a handfull of ns1 "vets" saying the talent in ns2 right now is nothing. Do they have a magic ball or something?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1945720:date=Jun 21 2012, 05:50 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 21 2012, 05:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945720"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's all relative. In nearly every game, the "pros" are always trash compared to "pros" from some other game, like quake or SC2.
Obviously the "talent" in a game that has been out negative three months is nothing compared to a game that had been released for years.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, personally I don't take the NS2 competitive scene seriously at the moment, and I'll tell you why. The game is hideously unbalanced, performs poorly and is still missing core mechanics. Every single thing about the game is still a work in progress, and every time I sit down to watch a stream I see aliens steamrolling because that's the state of the game.
If someone is still competing in NS1 right now (are they? I have no idea..) you have to admit they're playing a game where <i>competing </i>means much more.
None of that means the NS2 competitive players aren't good, or that they don't work hard. However, the ceiling on what it means to 'be good' will open up in a big way once the game is in a better form. There's a big difference between pub FFA players in Quake, and the top duelists...but I don't think the gap between competitive and pub players in NS2 is as big as people want to make it seem. If the current NS2 comp players keep growing as the game is finished up and released, they'll obviously have a big lead on newer players, but everyone catches up eventually (sorta like the SC2/BW transition going on right now in korea).
<!--quoteo(post=1945687:date=Jun 21 2012, 08:39 PM:name=Salraine_Chi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ Jun 21 2012, 08:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945687"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->95% of people who buy NS2 will have no interest in competitive gaming and if it is made so that only a few people with lots of hours to spare are able master every nuance, then the game will frustrate those with only a few hours to spare and ultimately they will leave.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
95% of the people who play chess have no interest in competitive play.
95% of the people who play cs have no interest in competitive play.
95% of the people who played brink had no interest in competitive play.
This isn't about designing the game for 5% of players who will play at the top level. In <b>every well designed game</b> it takes lots of hours to master every nuance, it is as simple as that. Just because the majority of the players will never reach that level doesn't matter. A well designed game is rewarding for players of every skill level, since improving your abilities leads to you winning more. If you try and design a game to limit the abilities of players and add a skill ceiling then what will happen is people will reach it very quickly and become frustrated and bored with it. Putting limits on the players like that is just bad game design. I hope UWE know this as "Depth over accessibility" was written on Charlie's white board.
Brink is a good example of a game that limits players abilities. The game was completely dead less than a few months after release. They designed that game to be very noob friendly and it ended up having no depth and just being bad for everyone.
I don't think a well designed game with depth "will frustrate those with only a few hours to spare", where is there any evidence of that? Look at cs, very popular game with lots of depth, many beginner low skilled players play it and have fun. Look at chess, 99% of people aren't grandmasters and yet they still play on yahoo and have a blast. Look at football, 99% of people aren't messi yet they still have great fun at the park with friends. All the evidence points to the opposite of what you are saying. If you design a game with depth then it will be appealing to many players of many skill levels, even those who don't have time to master every nuance.
Games with low skill ceilings become boring and frustrating far more often. Many multiplayer fps games have existed but the ones that stick around are those that are the most rewarding for the players. This isn't about designing a game for an elite few, it's about designing a game that has depth and will be more enjoyable for everyone.
<!--quoteo(post=1945693:date=Jun 21 2012, 08:10 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jun 21 2012, 08:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW6254xD1Hg&feature=relmfu#t=13m50s" target="_blank">www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW6254xD1Hg&feature=relmfu#t=13m50s</a> Related question and good answer from the biscuit in which he talks about the importance of a good movement system. I recommend you watching this instead since it seems almost impossible for some of us to not be misinterpreted as having an attitude when disagreeing.
What does hours to spare have anything to do with frustration? I, and many others I would hope want NS2 to be a good game with a long lifespan. A game with actual depth that isn't mastered in "a few hours" and quickly becomes boring. Sure accessibility is important, but come on lets be real now. If anything, there is a <b>distinct lack</b> of depth in the many FPS games currently being churned out by the industry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The tone of replies and the content is what I am talking about. I accept that many don't have the same opinions as me and I respect that, I only ask that others respect my opinion without resorting to immature attacks as happened in my marine jumping thread. It got nasty on that and I stopped replying. It was my opinion and some seem to think that what they think should be law and others cant argue against them. Look at the post I quoted in my last post. Can you deny that does not come across with a touch of bad attitude? A recent thread on here caused the OP to leave not only the forum but the game too. That is what I am talking about. Not specific posts but the general attitude not only on here though but in game as well.
I want to have fun when I play a game. If a player who has a lot of free time to master every tiny part of a game it puts those with a fraction of that time in a position where the game will be frustrating and they ultimately leave with a good chance they will never come back. This is something I have seen already. A new player went commander a few nights ago. It was his first time and he even said as he started doing it that he did not know what he was doing and could people help. The amount of abuse he got was ridiculous. Non of the players swearing and shouting at him made any attempt to go comm at game start and in way of thanks for him at least trying was a tirade of abuse. He left with the parting words of "this is the worst community I have ever played with". I was angry that someone playing a on-line video game could be made to feel so bad that he felt he had to leave and stop playing the game he had spent good money on.
Yes I want NS2 to succeed. I have been playing since the very start and was a avid NS1 player too until the elite crew took over who seem to think because they are good at a video game that the rest of humanity is inferior to them.. I don't think NS1 ever reached its potential but hope NS2 will. I want everyone who buys it to enjoy it, have fun and stick with it. What I am saying is, if there is an emphasis on clans and competitive gaming then the majority will be alienated (excuse the pun). Bhopping wouldn't add anything to NS2 and would take away some more of the depth and some of the strategic part of it. It is already starting to feel more like a racing game than anything else. Aliens go for Onos and stomp and marines rush for GL's or SG's and jet packs. Whoever wins that race has a tendency to win atm.
Pent-up frustration I would imagine. Many have cherished NS1's excellent movement-gameplay in a world that increasingly moved towards CoD's sluggish nonsense that provided no skill-curve of any kind and were basically built to become boring very quickly only to force players to come back and buy the next iteration of said game. Now here is NS2, and we have newcomers that never touched the original NS, lacking understanding of why it is cherished, here to turn NS2 into another grindfest that will lose its appeal after only weeks of gameplay. But that is just speculation...
Also, grow a thick skin already damnit. Don't just bail from the discussion if things get a little hot for you.
Now for a more on-topic contribution: I would be interested in any alternatives people could offer to bunnyhopping. Wallhopping just comes across as a forced alternate form of bunnyhopping the devs basically put in because they already commited themselfs not to have bunnyhopping in, and thus have maneuvered into a very tight spot. Can we agree that the current movement-mechanics are wholly insufficient? For both marines and aliens? People are adamant about not having bunnyhopping in, and I can respect that, but at least offer alternatives.
Yeah, I'd like to see some alternatives for skulk movement that are not any of the following: <ul><li>Leap</li><li>Walljumping</li><li>Bunnyhopping</li></ul>
Is anyone man enough to come up with something to fit the bill? I'm willing to be surprised.
<!--quoteo(post=1945735:date=Jun 21 2012, 11:35 PM:name=Salraine_Chi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ Jun 21 2012, 11:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I want to have fun when I play a game. If a player who has a lot of free time to master every tiny part of a game it puts those with a fraction of that time in a position where the game will be frustrating and they ultimately leave with a good chance they will never come back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Show me the evidence that deep games have less players. All the evidence points to the opposite. The games that last are those that are deep and hard to master. Even for beginners these games are more enjoyable, since as they improve they get rewarded and it is satisfying to play.
If you play against a much better player in any well designed game then it will be frustrating, there is no way to avoid that without making the game worse for everyone.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is something I have seen already. A new player went commander a few nights ago. It was his first time and he even said as he started doing it that he did not know what he was doing and could people help. The amount of abuse he got was ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Welcome to online gaming, people are ######. Go play l4d for the first time and you will see the same thing. Don't play dota whatever you do. When other people are relying on you and you make very noob mistakes they tend to get angry and take it out on you. That's nothing new with NS2 and it's certainly not something that will go away without removing all meaningful jobs from the commander. That's nothing to do with him not mastering every nuance though. You don't need to be a super pro commander to avoid rage, you just need to have some idea what you're doing.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes I want NS2 to succeed. I have been playing since the very start and was a avid NS1 player too until the elite crew took over who seem to think because they are good at a video game that the rest of humanity is inferior to them..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just because certain players are ###### doesn't mean the game should be designed to have little depth. There are always ###### in every game who think they are better than other people. You can't avoid that. In fact a lot of the time you need to be a certain type of obsessed person to become very good.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I am saying is, if there is an emphasis on clans and competitive gaming then the majority will be alienated (excuse the pun).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think this is true at all. I don't think it's about focusing on competitive gaming necessarily. It's just about designing a game with depth that is enjoyable and hard to master, since that is good game design.
...and to add to that, there are plenty of examples of games designed and supported for competition (league of legends, starcraft 2 come to mind), that also have a strong casual side to them, because the people who developed them didn't ignore either group
so, despite the fact that 90% of casual players want all competitive gamers' wishes to go unfulfilled, it didn't happen with those games and they're better for it
now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go play Quake Live (because I like it), even though it's 2012 and a lot of people think I shouldn't acknowledge a game that's more than 6 months old!
<!--quoteo(post=1945743:date=Jun 21 2012, 11:05 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Jun 21 2012, 11:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945743"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go play Quake Live (because I like it), even though it's 2012 and a lot of people think I shouldn't acknowledge a game that's more than <strike>6 months</strike> <b>12 years</b> old!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But you're right.
<!--quoteo(post=1945741:date=Jun 21 2012, 10:58 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 21 2012, 10:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945741"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Show me the evidence that deep games have less players. All the evidence points to the opposite. The games that last are those that are deep and hard to master. Even for beginners these games are more enjoyable, since as they improve they get rewarded and it is satisfying to play.
If you play against a much better player in any well designed game then it will be frustrating there is no way to avoid that.
Welcome to online gaming, people are ######. Go play l4d for the first time and you will see the same thing. Don't play dota whatever you do. When other people are relying on you and you make very noob mistakes they tend to get angry and take it out on you. That's nothing new with NS2 and it's certainly not something that will go away without removing all meaningful jobs from the commander. That's nothing to do with him not mastering every nuance though. You don't need to be a super pro commander to avoid rage, you just need to have some idea what you're doing.
Just because certain players are ###### doesn't mean the game should be designed to have little depth. There are always ###### in every game who think they are better than other people. You can't avoid that. In fact a lot of the time you need to be a certain type of obsessed person to become very good.
I don't think this is true at all. I don't think it's about focusing on competitive gaming necessarily. It's just about designing a game with depth that is enjoyable and hard to master, since that is good game design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said NS2 wasn't deep. I am saying with bhop it wouldn't be as deep. It would take something away not add anything.
I don't know Wilson. Like I have said before it should be easy to learn but harder to master. I am sure about a few things though.
1. I dont like bhopping and am sure you used to support me on this. 2. Yes the internet is full of weirdness and it sure does make a lot of people act out of character. 3. Don't understand the nastiness on forums and in game and never will.
<!--quoteo(post=1945746:date=Jun 21 2012, 07:11 PM:name=Salraine_Chi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ Jun 21 2012, 07:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945746"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I never said NS2 wasn't deep. I am saying with bhop it wouldn't be as deep. It would take something away not add anything.
I don't know Wilson. Like I have said before it should be easy to learn but harder to master.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How does adding bhop take something away? What does it take away? If you take NS2 as it is now, and let everyone bhop, they all have the choice of playing the game the same way they used to. It's nothing but new (objectively better) stuff to do!
Bhopping is easy to learn (the act of timing jumps/strafes), and hard to master (i.e. navigating every single map in a game perfectly, while fighting and changing your 'plan' based on what other people do). It's exactly like any other skill - you can *aim* at a basic level, but you'll need more time put in to trace pancaking lerks perfectly..
If you personally found it hard to learn/practice bhopping, you might just not have taken the right approach with it. I can really only think of <i>one </i>game that has a tutorial explaining it in a nice way, and it's one of the deadest games that exists..
I don't understand how you can say bhop is hard to master and you don't want it, but then say you want the game to be hard to master?
I supported you on marine jump spam, that is a completely different thing. Spamming the jump key doesn't take any skill and does not add any depth. It adds more random outcomes.
I'm not sure about bhop. I never played a game for any length of time that required it so I don't know how much depth it would add. I'm just disagreeing with you that a game that has lots of nuances to master is frustrating for the majority and will fail. All the evidence points to the opposite, as the games that are successful and continue to have high player numbers (many casual gamers) are those that are deep and hard to master.
I don't really know why the devs would remove bhop. It was obviously a big part of ns1 and added depth. If you removed it from ns1 then clearly the game would be worse with less depth. Why would that be good? To me it would make more sense to make the mechanic more accessible like in that fortress forever tutorial. You can hold down jump, you don't need a script or anything and the tutorial makes it really easy to pick up. It doesn't really matter to me much either way, I just haven't seen a good argument from a game design standpoint not to include it.
If bhop ever came back it needs to be restricted to only the skulk as that kind of quick movement fits their playstyle. If it ever was given to marines I would probably slit my wrists. You can't give that kind advantage to a ranged class when their only opponent is melee.
That said, marine movement IS very sluggish. Often times I feel like I am wearing magnetic boots and every jump I snap a little too quick back to the floor and I can't jump onto things that intuitively I should be able to jump on (player mentioned troll boxes and railings earlier). I also feel like input responsiveness for movement is a bit slow and not quite as snappy as GldSrc or Source. Hopefully that will get another pass on optimization before release.
Comments
It should be intuitive, and not require a training video to understand what to do.
Hmm, something like adding a ramp up acceleration to marines sprint to a cap, but on colliding it stops the marine dead which means the marine must re-gain his top speed by accelerating again.
Would that count ?
Its movement, and it requires the player not bump into things (skill) to keep maximum speed.
It should be intuitive, and not require a training video to understand what to do.
Hmm, something like adding a ramp up acceleration to marines sprint to a cap, but on colliding it stops the marine dead which means the marine must re-gain his top speed by accelerating again.
Would that count ?
Its movement, and it requires the player not bump into things (skill) to keep maximum speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would involve bhop.
Make it so it allows you to keep +forward pressed since i guess thats what most people have difficulty to grasp, soften the timing like it was/is in the current wallhop(the quicker you jump again the more speed you get, but dont lose all if its slightly late). To combat the ridiculous claim that it was just scripting, put in the mechanic that, again, already was in the wallhop but taken away for some reason, that if you execute +jump in air you drop to normal run speed.
Also, the current wallhop for skulk is just as hard to grasp as bunnyhop is.
For the marines, what you propose would not work at all. It would take full 5 seconds to master it. All you really need is more control on the jump, so you can better use the enviroment to your advantage in, and out of combat. NS1 honestly nailed it there. Maybe take out wigglewalk and wallstrafe if you really have to.
The whole point is to have something that you can never fully master, theres always room for improvement. With speedcaps and easy mechanics to hit it, thats not possible. Im not saying you should be able to go get huge speeds with ease. It should be hard, and you should always be able to get better timing, better usage of map, better and more precise aircontrol to get better and better at it.
If you dont have any of that, the game gets boring really fast and like i said, i personally only find any joy in playing as the skulk anymore, or as a marine training my aim/positioning. And thats with what, 2-3 months of active playing while i really would like to play this game for years to come.
A bit sad to see it has been nerfed so much. Hopefully it will be set to some better values soon; if not, gotta mod it.
Pretty much. It hinges far more on understanding each build and abusing all the quirks than it ever has on skill. The average skill-level is shocking, even amongst the best NS2 clans (no disrespect; i'm including myself). Every encounter feels like rolling dice and hoping for the best and I have yet to feel really punished for face-palming my spacebar key in combat, even against the best players. This is in part due to broken mechanics like ARC-trains, nano-shield/construct and oddity that is wallhop. Fades still retain their one-button super-damage-reduction skill to get out of even the toughest situations and the onos is the biggest dice roll of all - it's very hard to tell whether it will win you the game by destroying the win-button powernode or whether it'll just get chased into oblivion by lmgs and/or jetpacks because of it's clunky movement system. Game outcomes seem to have very little correlation with K:D, too.
<!--quoteo(post=1945546:date=Jun 21 2012, 12:44 PM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Jun 21 2012, 12:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945546"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I will repeat, that I like skulk's walljump over bunnyhopping because it gives you more freedom of movement, because you can control the height of your jump by looking higher up or lower down. In any game's bunnyhop, you jump predictably at the same height all the time.
A bit sad to see it has been nerfed so much. Hopefully it will be set to some better values soon; if not, gotta mod it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sadly, I think that the reason you like it is also one of the reasons why it doesn't work that well. The bunnyhop gave speed at the cost of predictability and, even at the very highest level, players would still opt for ambushes, floor-based movement and even the NS1 walljump with respectable success rates. NS2 wallhopping, on the other hand, has absolutely no downside. It is both the skulk's source of speed and unpredictability and means that you will *always* have to use it if you plan to be any good. The mechanic is more difficult to execute (especially with all the complex geometry that clutters maps), more punishing when you fail a jump (takes far longer to build up maximum speed) and is more unpredictable than ever (looking slightly up or down will radically alter your path and this difference in viewing direction is <i>barely</i> detectable for marines). Add to this, the fact that it isn't exactly intuitive and that breaking my spacebar key is a more than valid strategy in close-quarter combat and it's no wonder that people are pining for the old bunnyhop.
You should be playing the competitive mod for clan games or gathers because it fixes nearly every one of those problems that you listed!
Its been sluggish ever since build 198 or whenever it was the movement system overhaul was done. The result was marines no longer snapped into a direction, but instead accelerated slowly causing the sluggish feeling (shorter left/right strafe distance given a fixed time interval). You can also see this clearly by noticing that sprint does not snap you to sprint speed as it once did but instead gradually accelerates you. Basically, it was UWE saying "we don't want marines to have much movement potential".
Imo, the problem is not marine base speed, but responsiveness.
Skulks running towards a wall make themselves the easiest targets, especially to shotguns.
High gravity has been a pain in the arse since forever. You're basically forced to walk around everything, as most railings are literally only a few inches too high to jump over (troll-railings!), and while boxes often can be jumped over, there are some around that just have some kind of invisi-wall (troll-boxes!). It would be nice if marines could utilize jump a bit more outside of the spamming in melee-encounters, which brings us to:
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Pretty much. It hinges far more on understanding each build and abusing all the quirks than it ever has on skill. The average skill-level is shocking, even amongst the best NS2 clans (no disrespect; i'm including myself). Every encounter feels like rolling dice and hoping for the best and I have yet to feel really punished for face-palming my spacebar key in combat, even against the best players. This is in part due to broken mechanics like ARC-trains, nano-shield/construct and oddity that is wallhop. Fades still retain their one-button super-damage-reduction skill to get out of even the toughest situations and the onos is the biggest dice roll of all - it's very hard to tell whether it will win you the game by destroying the win-button powernode or whether it'll just get chased into oblivion by lmgs and/or jetpacks because of it's clunky movement system. Game outcomes seem to have very little correlation with K:D, too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You should be playing the competitive mod for clan games or gathers because it fixes nearly every one of those problems that you listed!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One thing it probably doesn't fix are the animations. It seems odd, seeing as skulks in NS2 are a whole lot larger than in NS1, they're still incredibly difficult to hit. I feel most of it is down to the animations, the jump-animation specifically, or rather the lack thereof. When a skulk jumps it basically gets into an arc-pose, and just hovers through the air and predictability of his next move is just gone. It could move anywhere in mid-air, and the animation is telling you nothing. In NS1 you could quite clearly anticipate which spot a skulk was moving towards while it was in the air (a part of that is bunnyhopping and its predictability, but it also feels like NS2-skulks actually jump a lot higher than their NS1-counterparts, or so it comes across anyway, the transition from ground to air is also very abrupt, making it hard to track a hopping skulk). All of this makes a skulk-marine encounter a dice-roll mostly.
Just think about how many times you get skeeted out of the air in NS2. I'm talking full on 1 shot by a shotgun during a leap at a marine. Probably never. I personally can't remember ever being killed mid leap from full hp. Now think about left4dead competitive games. It was common practice to skeet pouncing hunters and you weren't good if you couldn't consistently do it.
I can name quite a few contemporary shooter games that aren't realistic, but don't feature any Quake-style movement mechanics. I'm not sure what you mean by 'jumpy' but it seems like a really subjective thing (is counterstrike 'jumpy'? is warsow? TF2? halo?)
Also, it's not as simple as scripting the act of bunnyhopping. Please go to youtube and search 'defrag', watch a few videos and then write down a mockup of the script that performs them. You can also search for 'hal9000' or 'cpma' and do the same. If it seems like the things players do in those videos cannot be scripted, it's because the players were performing things that depend on dynamic game situations (opponents' positions/choices etc) or extremely complicated trickjumping maps, which is exactly what makes skill-based movement exciting. High-level Quake players who have great movement aren't dedicating their time to holding down mouse3 and running a script. I have yet to see anyone who actually plays defrag/cpma come out and say there is nothing skillful about movement in those games, because it would be the most absurd thing to ever happen on this planet. Give me a break!
It's clear that quite a few people are wishing for the movement mechanics of NS1 to make a comeback in NS2 (take a look at TrueVeritas' thread for a good example video), and it's not because they're clinging to a silly exploit or a nonsense game design trend. It's because that style of movement is fun and creates memorable game experiences. The absence of it creates fewer memorable experiences, because nothing put 'in its place' ever seems to compare.
It was taken out of CS because it absolutely does not fit that game at all. It was left in numerous games on the same engine, because it did fit them. How experienced are you with movement in TFC, AG, SI, NS and so on? Those are all successful, historically-significant Half-Life mods that hinge on Quake-style movement.
So, there we have it. The same old bhop arguments everyone repeats without understanding the subject:
<ul><li>"It's just an engine bug!" - tons of people like it and it was deliberately put in more games than it was taken out of, even if it was <i>originally</i> an unintended side effect</li><li>"All you need to do is script it" - no, that's simply not true and there are a bazillion counterexamples</li></ul>
Feel free to stop posting these things in threads about movement. Thanks!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the sort of attitude that makes me not post much on here now. But, I have my opinion and I wont apologise for that. I get the feeling the elitist minority on here would love the likes of me to disappear but I wont.
I am a 47 year old gamer who has probably gamed longer than some folk on here have been alive lol. I know the ins and outs of the HL1 engine and understand it thoroughly, and that some games kept it and some didn't. Yes CS didn't suit bhopping but in my opinion, and many others, neither does NS2, and it just downright looks stupid. It was as you rightly state as did I that it was an error/mistake. Its ok in death match or CTF type games such as TFC or Quake but not in what it billed as a RTS/FPS hybrid. Put bhopping into a game like NS2 and it makes any sort of strategy or depth a joke and it becomes Aliens v Marines death match. I play TF2 sometimes and the players in that have less jumping than the marines in NS2 and that is just wrong. The marines have way enough movement as it is and Skulks for example have been given a lot more movement than I think UW intended, I suspect to pander for the old NS1 crowd. I took a break from NS1 and I returned to find every server full of elitist players barking orders at everybody, bhopping around the map. I soon left and didn't return as did my friends. Very few people were on to be honest I wasn't really surprised. I had hoped NS2 would take the idea of the original game and refine and add to it and make it appeal to a lot more people than just the competitive crowd. UW are game lovers yes but are also a business now.
95% of people who buy NS2 will have no interest in competitive gaming and if it is made so that only a few people with lots of hours to spare are able master every nuance, then the game will frustrate those with only a few hours to spare and ultimately they will leave. The competition is fierce out there and NS2 has a chance to bring something new to the table. If it becomes another of the many types of games we already have, I will be very disappointed.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW6254xD1Hg&feature=relmfu#t=13m50s" target="_blank">www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW6254xD1Hg&feature=relmfu#t=13m50s</a>
Related question and good answer from the biscuit in which he talks about the importance of a good movement system. I recommend you watching this instead since it seems almost impossible for some of us to not be misinterpreted as having an attitude when disagreeing.
What does hours to spare have anything to do with frustration? I, and many others i would hope want NS2 to be a good game with a long lifespan. A game with actual depth that isn't mastered in "a few hours" and quickly becomes boring. Sure accessibility is important, but come on lets be real now. If anything, there is a <b>distinct lack</b> of depth in the many FPS games currently being churned out by the industry.
So who decides who is "pro" and not "pro" I see a handfull of ns1 "vets" saying the talent in ns2 right now is nothing. Do they have a magic ball or something?
So who decides who is "pro" and not "pro" I see a handfull of ns1 "vets" saying the talent in ns2 right now is nothing. Do the have a magic ball or something?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's all relative. In nearly every game, the "pros" are always trash compared to "pros" from some other game, like quake or SC2.
Obviously the "talent" in a game that has been out negative three months is nothing compared to a game that had been released for years.
Why do people act like it takes a tremendous amount of effort to learn basic movement mechanics?
I'll bet $100 I can teach you to bhop perfectly in Quake/HL faster than a new player can learn to walljump effectively in NS2.
I don't think NS1 has few players because it's hard to learn/frustrating...it might just be the fact that the game is <b>10 years old</b>.
I think if NS2 is going to 'bring something new to the table', copying bad console FPS trends is the last way it should go about doing that. Having shallow game mechanics because 'somebody might get frustrated' is a great way to put a game on a 6 month clock at release (after which nobody plays it anymore and they move on to the next $70 sequel/rehash).
Nobody is saying you should have to be a world class defrag player to enjoy NS2, but that doesn't mean having mechanics like that in the game would be doing harm.
<!--quoteo(post=1945718:date=Jun 21 2012, 05:44 PM:name=JuCCi-PuCCi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JuCCi-PuCCi @ Jun 21 2012, 05:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945718"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So who decides who is "pro" and not "pro" I see a handfull of ns1 "vets" saying the talent in ns2 right now is nothing. Do they have a magic ball or something?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1945720:date=Jun 21 2012, 05:50 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 21 2012, 05:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945720"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's all relative. In nearly every game, the "pros" are always trash compared to "pros" from some other game, like quake or SC2.
Obviously the "talent" in a game that has been out negative three months is nothing compared to a game that had been released for years.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, personally I don't take the NS2 competitive scene seriously at the moment, and I'll tell you why.
The game is hideously unbalanced, performs poorly and is still missing core mechanics. Every single thing about the game is still a work in progress, and every time I sit down to watch a stream I see aliens steamrolling because that's the state of the game.
If someone is still competing in NS1 right now (are they? I have no idea..) you have to admit they're playing a game where <i>competing </i>means much more.
None of that means the NS2 competitive players aren't good, or that they don't work hard. However, the ceiling on what it means to 'be good' will open up in a big way once the game is in a better form. There's a big difference between pub FFA players in Quake, and the top duelists...but I don't think the gap between competitive and pub players in NS2 is as big as people want to make it seem. If the current NS2 comp players keep growing as the game is finished up and released, they'll obviously have a big lead on newer players, but everyone catches up eventually (sorta like the SC2/BW transition going on right now in korea).
95% of the people who play chess have no interest in competitive play.
95% of the people who play cs have no interest in competitive play.
95% of the people who played brink had no interest in competitive play.
This isn't about designing the game for 5% of players who will play at the top level. In <b>every well designed game</b> it takes lots of hours to master every nuance, it is as simple as that. Just because the majority of the players will never reach that level doesn't matter. A well designed game is rewarding for players of every skill level, since improving your abilities leads to you winning more. If you try and design a game to limit the abilities of players and add a skill ceiling then what will happen is people will reach it very quickly and become frustrated and bored with it. Putting limits on the players like that is just bad game design. I hope UWE know this as "Depth over accessibility" was written on Charlie's white board.
Brink is a good example of a game that limits players abilities. The game was completely dead less than a few months after release. They designed that game to be very noob friendly and it ended up having no depth and just being bad for everyone.
I don't think a well designed game with depth "will frustrate those with only a few hours to spare", where is there any evidence of that? Look at cs, very popular game with lots of depth, many beginner low skilled players play it and have fun. Look at chess, 99% of people aren't grandmasters and yet they still play on yahoo and have a blast. Look at football, 99% of people aren't messi yet they still have great fun at the park with friends. All the evidence points to the opposite of what you are saying. If you design a game with depth then it will be appealing to many players of many skill levels, even those who don't have time to master every nuance.
Games with low skill ceilings become boring and frustrating far more often. Many multiplayer fps games have existed but the ones that stick around are those that are the most rewarding for the players. This isn't about designing a game for an elite few, it's about designing a game that has depth and will be more enjoyable for everyone.
Related question and good answer from the biscuit in which he talks about the importance of a good movement system. I recommend you watching this instead since it seems almost impossible for some of us to not be misinterpreted as having an attitude when disagreeing.
What does hours to spare have anything to do with frustration? I, and many others I would hope want NS2 to be a good game with a long lifespan. A game with actual depth that isn't mastered in "a few hours" and quickly becomes boring. Sure accessibility is important, but come on lets be real now. If anything, there is a <b>distinct lack</b> of depth in the many FPS games currently being churned out by the industry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The tone of replies and the content is what I am talking about. I accept that many don't have the same opinions as me and I respect that, I only ask that others respect my opinion without resorting to immature attacks as happened in my marine jumping thread. It got nasty on that and I stopped replying. It was my opinion and some seem to think that what they think should be law and others cant argue against them. Look at the post I quoted in my last post. Can you deny that does not come across with a touch of bad attitude? A recent thread on here caused the OP to leave not only the forum but the game too. That is what I am talking about. Not specific posts but the general attitude not only on here though but in game as well.
I want to have fun when I play a game. If a player who has a lot of free time to master every tiny part of a game it puts those with a fraction of that time in a position where the game will be frustrating and they ultimately leave with a good chance they will never come back. This is something I have seen already. A new player went commander a few nights ago. It was his first time and he even said as he started doing it that he did not know what he was doing and could people help. The amount of abuse he got was ridiculous. Non of the players swearing and shouting at him made any attempt to go comm at game start and in way of thanks for him at least trying was a tirade of abuse. He left with the parting words of "this is the worst community I have ever played with". I was angry that someone playing a on-line video game could be made to feel so bad that he felt he had to leave and stop playing the game he had spent good money on.
Yes I want NS2 to succeed. I have been playing since the very start and was a avid NS1 player too until the elite crew took over who seem to think because they are good at a video game that the rest of humanity is inferior to them.. I don't think NS1 ever reached its potential but hope NS2 will. I want everyone who buys it to enjoy it, have fun and stick with it. What I am saying is, if there is an emphasis on clans and competitive gaming then the majority will be alienated (excuse the pun). Bhopping wouldn't add anything to NS2 and would take away some more of the depth and some of the strategic part of it. It is already starting to feel more like a racing game than anything else. Aliens go for Onos and stomp and marines rush for GL's or SG's and jet packs. Whoever wins that race has a tendency to win atm.
bhop is cool guys
Also, grow a thick skin already damnit. Don't just bail from the discussion if things get a little hot for you.
Now for a more on-topic contribution:
I would be interested in any alternatives people could offer to bunnyhopping. Wallhopping just comes across as a forced alternate form of bunnyhopping the devs basically put in because they already commited themselfs not to have bunnyhopping in, and thus have maneuvered into a very tight spot. Can we agree that the current movement-mechanics are wholly insufficient? For both marines and aliens? People are adamant about not having bunnyhopping in, and I can respect that, but at least offer alternatives.
<ul><li>Leap</li><li>Walljumping</li><li>Bunnyhopping</li></ul>
Is anyone man enough to come up with something to fit the bill? I'm willing to be surprised.
Show me the evidence that deep games have less players. All the evidence points to the opposite. The games that last are those that are deep and hard to master. Even for beginners these games are more enjoyable, since as they improve they get rewarded and it is satisfying to play.
If you play against a much better player in any well designed game then it will be frustrating, there is no way to avoid that without making the game worse for everyone.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is something I have seen already. A new player went commander a few nights ago. It was his first time and he even said as he started doing it that he did not know what he was doing and could people help. The amount of abuse he got was ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Welcome to online gaming, people are ######. Go play l4d for the first time and you will see the same thing. Don't play dota whatever you do. When other people are relying on you and you make very noob mistakes they tend to get angry and take it out on you. That's nothing new with NS2 and it's certainly not something that will go away without removing all meaningful jobs from the commander. That's nothing to do with him not mastering every nuance though. You don't need to be a super pro commander to avoid rage, you just need to have some idea what you're doing.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes I want NS2 to succeed. I have been playing since the very start and was a avid NS1 player too until the elite crew took over who seem to think because they are good at a video game that the rest of humanity is inferior to them..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because certain players are ###### doesn't mean the game should be designed to have little depth. There are always ###### in every game who think they are better than other people. You can't avoid that. In fact a lot of the time you need to be a certain type of obsessed person to become very good.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I am saying is, if there is an emphasis on clans and competitive gaming then the majority will be alienated (excuse the pun).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think this is true at all. I don't think it's about focusing on competitive gaming necessarily. It's just about designing a game with depth that is enjoyable and hard to master, since that is good game design.
so, despite the fact that 90% of casual players want all competitive gamers' wishes to go unfulfilled, it didn't happen with those games and they're better for it
now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go play Quake Live (because I like it), even though it's 2012 and a lot of people think I shouldn't acknowledge a game that's more than 6 months old!
But you're right.
If you play against a much better player in any well designed game then it will be frustrating there is no way to avoid that.
Welcome to online gaming, people are ######. Go play l4d for the first time and you will see the same thing. Don't play dota whatever you do. When other people are relying on you and you make very noob mistakes they tend to get angry and take it out on you. That's nothing new with NS2 and it's certainly not something that will go away without removing all meaningful jobs from the commander. That's nothing to do with him not mastering every nuance though. You don't need to be a super pro commander to avoid rage, you just need to have some idea what you're doing.
Just because certain players are ###### doesn't mean the game should be designed to have little depth. There are always ###### in every game who think they are better than other people. You can't avoid that. In fact a lot of the time you need to be a certain type of obsessed person to become very good.
I don't think this is true at all. I don't think it's about focusing on competitive gaming necessarily. It's just about designing a game with depth that is enjoyable and hard to master, since that is good game design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said NS2 wasn't deep. I am saying with bhop it wouldn't be as deep. It would take something away not add anything.
I don't know Wilson. Like I have said before it should be easy to learn but harder to master. I am sure about a few things though.
1. I dont like bhopping and am sure you used to support me on this.
2. Yes the internet is full of weirdness and it sure does make a lot of people act out of character.
3. Don't understand the nastiness on forums and in game and never will.
I don't know Wilson. Like I have said before it should be easy to learn but harder to master.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How does adding bhop take something away? What does it take away? If you take NS2 as it is now, and let everyone bhop, they all have the choice of playing the game the same way they used to. It's nothing but new (objectively better) stuff to do!
Bhopping is easy to learn (the act of timing jumps/strafes), and hard to master (i.e. navigating every single map in a game perfectly, while fighting and changing your 'plan' based on what other people do). It's exactly like any other skill - you can *aim* at a basic level, but you'll need more time put in to trace pancaking lerks perfectly..
If you personally found it hard to learn/practice bhopping, you might just not have taken the right approach with it. I can really only think of <i>one </i>game that has a tutorial explaining it in a nice way, and it's one of the deadest games that exists..
I supported you on marine jump spam, that is a completely different thing. Spamming the jump key doesn't take any skill and does not add any depth. It adds more random outcomes.
I'm not sure about bhop. I never played a game for any length of time that required it so I don't know how much depth it would add. I'm just disagreeing with you that a game that has lots of nuances to master is frustrating for the majority and will fail. All the evidence points to the opposite, as the games that are successful and continue to have high player numbers (many casual gamers) are those that are deep and hard to master.
I don't really know why the devs would remove bhop. It was obviously a big part of ns1 and added depth. If you removed it from ns1 then clearly the game would be worse with less depth. Why would that be good? To me it would make more sense to make the mechanic more accessible like in that fortress forever tutorial. You can hold down jump, you don't need a script or anything and the tutorial makes it really easy to pick up. It doesn't really matter to me much either way, I just haven't seen a good argument from a game design standpoint not to include it.
If bhop ever came back it needs to be restricted to only the skulk as that kind of quick movement fits their playstyle. If it ever was given to marines I would probably slit my wrists. You can't give that kind advantage to a ranged class when their only opponent is melee.
That said, marine movement IS very sluggish. Often times I feel like I am wearing magnetic boots and every jump I snap a little too quick back to the floor and I can't jump onto things that intuitively I should be able to jump on (player mentioned troll boxes and railings earlier). I also feel like input responsiveness for movement is a bit slow and not quite as snappy as GldSrc or Source. Hopefully that will get another pass on optimization before release.