jump crouching definitely not as smooth as it needs to be. however i think the main issue with movement right now, as with most things in the game, is the server and client performance.
I think adding a little bit of strafe-jumping acceleration to the skulk would blend well with the current wall jumping and bunny hop mechanics, I don't think it would do any big difference, most players wouldn't notice it. I'd like to try it at least.
Warsow instagib has the best movement system of any game. The balance between predictability, speed and continuous movement is fantastic because it's mixed in with two cooldowns; dash and the railgun's rate of fire. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--LFHbyiUsQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=87s" target="_blank">Why not lose any pretense of reality and just do this? HUH?</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1945835:date=Jun 22 2012, 07:37 AM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Jun 22 2012, 07:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945835"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Warsow instagib has the best movement system of any game. The balance between predictability, speed and continuous movement is fantastic because it's mixed in with two cooldowns; dash and the railgun's rate of fire. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--LFHbyiUsQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=87s" target="_blank">Why not lose any pretense of reality and just do this? HUH?</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I somehow doubt something like this would work give NS2's style and map style. I do love that gameplay style (played something very similar back in UT99 -> UT2k4), but it isn't really good for a FPS-RTS. I'm also not sure an asymmetric ranged vs melee game would work with such mobile players.
Even without warsow's walljump mechanic. I think VQ3 style strafe jumping would be fine for skulks in NS2. -It's totally trivial for any player to do, difficult to do it perfectly. -It gives you significant speed gains, while making you more predictable in a linear sense. -It requires game sense and timing to know when to abort strafing and regain air-control again to make more evasive moves / take cover.
<!--quoteo(post=1945751:date=Jun 21 2012, 11:27 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 21 2012, 11:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't understand how you can say bhop is hard to master and you don't want it, but then say you want the game to be hard to master?
I supported you on marine jump spam, that is a completely different thing. Spamming the jump key doesn't take any skill and does not add any depth. It adds more random outcomes.
I'm not sure about bhop. I never played a game for any length of time that required it so I don't know how much depth it would add. I'm just disagreeing with you that a game that has lots of nuances to master is frustrating for the majority and will fail. All the evidence points to the opposite, as the games that are successful and continue to have high player numbers (many casual gamers) are those that are deep and hard to master.
I don't really know why the devs would remove bhop. It was obviously a big part of ns1 and added depth. If you removed it from ns1 then clearly the game would be worse with less depth. Why would that be good? To me it would make more sense to make the mechanic more accessible like in that fortress forever tutorial. You can hold down jump, you don't need a script or anything and the tutorial makes it really easy to pick up. It doesn't really matter to me much either way, I just haven't seen a good argument from a game design standpoint not to include it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I said harder to master, not hard. The learning curve of the game is fairly steep, ok it should take some time to learn everything there is to learn and to improve on but in my opinion bhopping would not add anything. That is purely my opinion and I know others disagree. Thats ok too. When I signed up for the beta I was pleased it was gone as I was when Charlie stated it prob wouldn't return. I think NS2 is a better game without it. Skulks have celerity marines get JP's and is that not enough movement already? I cant imagine how insane a Skulk with celerity and bhop would be. I understand why the devs didn't want it. They want a game that appeals to as many potential buyers as possible. Some say dumbed down and others would say more accessible. The direction the game was heading seemed right and as has been said before, the game will be very mod-able. So if old hardcore competitive players want bhopping etc well Im certain there will be servers for that. I no doubt will give it a go myself. People keep telling me its easy to learn. If its that easy then what is skilful about it? I bhopped my way round loads of games of NS1. I didn't find it that difficult to learn but I still never liked it.
I think we need to agree to disagree on this one and let the devs decide what is best.
I stand corrected Wislon, it was the marine jump spam we agreed on. Just getting my posts mixed up.
<!--quoteo(post=1945738:date=Jun 21 2012, 05:54 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Jun 21 2012, 05:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945738"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, I'd like to see some alternatives for skulk movement that are not any of the following: <ul><li>Leap</li><li>Walljumping</li><li>Bunnyhopping</li></ul>
Is anyone man enough to come up with something to fit the bill? I'm willing to be surprised.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright, here's what I've got:
Currently skulk always jumps and leaps forward/up regardless of the surface he's on. Make the arc of his jump/leap go away from the surface he's standing on (as would be realistic). Then, add a <i>slight</i> and <i>brief</i> slowdown to skulk when he changes direction mid-run (also realistic). This will mean that skulks get the best speed turning a corner in a corridor by jumping on the wall right before they get to the corner and pushing off of it.
This would look awesome, it would be realistic, and it would help skulk have the "bouncing off the walls and down the corridors" look and feel that the dev's seem to have in mind with wall jump.
Thoughts?
edit: I guess that fails 2 of your 3 criteria, whoops. Still think it's a good idea though.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Need to reduce acceleration rate before you really judge if the strafing feels right in that mod, yuuki.
Especially when you can jump through comp lab to sub in 2 jumps :><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What kind of speed did you reached ?
I made it quite strong so that the effect is clear and fun, and there is no limit, so I guess you can go fast :)
It's a simple implementation but there is already a few parameters, what kind of mouse movement is optimal, how precise you need to be, the amplitude and direction of the speed bonus, how the air control is affected, ... it's around line 518 in skulk.lua.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1945718:date=Jun 21 2012, 10:44 PM:name=JuCCi-PuCCi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JuCCi-PuCCi @ Jun 21 2012, 10:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945718"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So who decides who is "pro" and not "pro" I see a handfull of ns1 "vets" saying the talent in ns2 right now is nothing. Do they have a magic ball or something?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nobody has decided anything, but we have every right to make our observations public. Some of us have played against players who mastered every part of a very similar game, so it seems natural that our observations be given some weight.
When I am able to go 25+ frags to 0 deaths as lerk over two matches after not touching the game for half a year, it isn't because I am particularly good; it's because the opposition lacks aim.
skill, at least as an average, is a function of time passed since release of a game and the size of the community. If the NS2 community grows and as time passes since release, I've no doubt that the skill of NS2 players will reach, or even exceed, that of their NS1 counterparts.
<!--quoteo(post=1945822:date=Jun 22 2012, 05:48 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jun 22 2012, 05:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945822"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think adding a little bit of strafe-jumping acceleration to the skulk would blend well with the current wall jumping and bunny hop mechanics, I don't think it would do any big difference, most players wouldn't notice it. I'd like to try it at least.
Cool link! I'm gonna be lost reading this for a while now. I think there's a similar page from somebody who helped John Carmack program the quake 1 engine (all about graphics, networking etc)...does that ring a bell?
blindJoin Date: 2010-04-17Member: 71437Members, Squad Five Gold
We're all human with the common flaws.
Group A People who put alot time in a game want a rewarding mechanic so there is a noticable difference in skill. You watch a pro and immediately recognize this guy has skill. You watch Joe average, you see it. These people want the game balanced that they'll win 9 of 10 times in an even match against Joe because they deserve it.
Group B People who dont want/can put much time in a game don't want to get rolled by "no-lifers" every time. It's frustrating to get spawncamped. Game mechanics should dull the pros down so they have a somewhat fair chance winning.
Well, based on the game we play we all are sometimes in Group A or in Group B and yell at the devs to benefit ourselves only.
You can easily pretend the Group B problems by <b>proper matchmaking</b>. Chess newbs don't play against grandmasters, they play against other newbs and the world is fine. When you ladder in SC2 you'll get opponents in your skill level so your win/lose ratio isn't frustrating for you, no matter how bad you are. When you look for a 5v5 in CS in IRC you ask for newb/mid/pro level.
But you cannot satisfy Group A once you dulled the gameplay.
I personally cannot enjoy FPS anymore without the possibility to add depth with movement skill since I learned it. It was different before I learned it and I yelled myself at the "scripters" and "macro users" and whatnot how unfair the world would be...instead of just learning the mechanics. It's almost impossible to describe how different a game feels once you changed the way you play it by putting effort into it (not even measured in time since you could play NS1 10 years as joe average and never learn important basics). Imagine a guy who never had sex telling you he doesn't need a woman/man...ask again after he had his first time. I don't know one single person who mastered NS1 movements and want them gone.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1946122:date=Jun 23 2012, 11:01 AM:name=blind)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (blind @ Jun 23 2012, 11:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>proper matchmaking</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is really the best solution to accommodate both sides. It will also help people who want to improve their skill since getting pounded into the dirt by someone an order of magnitude better than you is less helpful than someone who may only be just a bit better than you.
The spleen! The spleen, and judging by the smell, also the intestines of the equine are still untouched! Surely someone has a cane with a skulk-head on top they could use to finish it off? Just a few more hits and everything will surely be as good as the halcyon days of yore.
Anyhow - Does anyone know how well walljumping is supposed to work atm? I'm utterly baffeled by it atm. Sometimes I get a huge speed bonus from nowhere, then I'm like, "hey, lets get more speed/maintain this speed by making a walljump" I get the roar and all and my speed DECREASES. It's just... I don't understand it anymore. At all.
Comments
Doesn't look so easy to implement though :
<a href="http://www.funender.com/quake/articles/strafing_theory.html" target="_blank">http://www.funender.com/quake/articles/strafing_theory.html</a>
I somehow doubt something like this would work give NS2's style and map style. I do love that gameplay style (played something very similar back in UT99 -> UT2k4), but it isn't really good for a FPS-RTS. I'm also not sure an asymmetric ranged vs melee game would work with such mobile players.
-It's totally trivial for any player to do, difficult to do it perfectly.
-It gives you significant speed gains, while making you more predictable in a linear sense.
-It requires game sense and timing to know when to abort strafing and regain air-control again to make more evasive moves / take cover.
I supported you on marine jump spam, that is a completely different thing. Spamming the jump key doesn't take any skill and does not add any depth. It adds more random outcomes.
I'm not sure about bhop. I never played a game for any length of time that required it so I don't know how much depth it would add. I'm just disagreeing with you that a game that has lots of nuances to master is frustrating for the majority and will fail. All the evidence points to the opposite, as the games that are successful and continue to have high player numbers (many casual gamers) are those that are deep and hard to master.
I don't really know why the devs would remove bhop. It was obviously a big part of ns1 and added depth. If you removed it from ns1 then clearly the game would be worse with less depth. Why would that be good? To me it would make more sense to make the mechanic more accessible like in that fortress forever tutorial. You can hold down jump, you don't need a script or anything and the tutorial makes it really easy to pick up. It doesn't really matter to me much either way, I just haven't seen a good argument from a game design standpoint not to include it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I said harder to master, not hard. The learning curve of the game is fairly steep, ok it should take some time to learn everything there is to learn and to improve on but in my opinion bhopping would not add anything. That is purely my opinion and I know others disagree. Thats ok too. When I signed up for the beta I was pleased it was gone as I was when Charlie stated it prob wouldn't return. I think NS2 is a better game without it. Skulks have celerity marines get JP's and is that not enough movement already? I cant imagine how insane a Skulk with celerity and bhop would be. I understand why the devs didn't want it. They want a game that appeals to as many potential buyers as possible. Some say dumbed down and others would say more accessible. The direction the game was heading seemed right and as has been said before, the game will be very mod-able. So if old hardcore competitive players want bhopping etc well Im certain there will be servers for that. I no doubt will give it a go myself. People keep telling me its easy to learn. If its that easy then what is skilful about it? I bhopped my way round loads of games of NS1. I didn't find it that difficult to learn but I still never liked it.
I think we need to agree to disagree on this one and let the devs decide what is best.
I stand corrected Wislon, it was the marine jump spam we agreed on. Just getting my posts mixed up.
<a href="http://www.sendspace.com/file/fx3hrd" target="_blank">http://www.sendspace.com/file/fx3hrd</a>
Instruction:
unzip anywhere and run startMod.exe, or install like a normal mod.
cheats 1
j2
debugspeed
Then press forward, strafe on one side and move your mouse about 2 radians per second in the strafing direction.
Especially when you can jump through comp lab to sub in 2 jumps :>
<ul><li>Leap</li><li>Walljumping</li><li>Bunnyhopping</li></ul>
Is anyone man enough to come up with something to fit the bill? I'm willing to be surprised.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright, here's what I've got:
Currently skulk always jumps and leaps forward/up regardless of the surface he's on. Make the arc of his jump/leap go away from the surface he's standing on (as would be realistic). Then, add a <i>slight</i> and <i>brief</i> slowdown to skulk when he changes direction mid-run (also realistic). This will mean that skulks get the best speed turning a corner in a corridor by jumping on the wall right before they get to the corner and pushing off of it.
This would look awesome, it would be realistic, and it would help skulk have the "bouncing off the walls and down the corridors" look and feel that the dev's seem to have in mind with wall jump.
Thoughts?
edit: I guess that fails 2 of your 3 criteria, whoops. Still think it's a good idea though.
Especially when you can jump through comp lab to sub in 2 jumps :><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What kind of speed did you reached ?
I made it quite strong so that the effect is clear and fun, and there is no limit, so I guess you can go fast :)
It's a simple implementation but there is already a few parameters, what kind of mouse movement is optimal, how precise you need to be,
the amplitude and direction of the speed bonus, how the air control is affected, ... it's around line 518 in skulk.lua.
Nobody has decided anything, but we have every right to make our observations public. Some of us have played against players who mastered every part of a very similar game, so it seems natural that our observations be given some weight.
When I am able to go 25+ frags to 0 deaths as lerk over two matches after not touching the game for half a year, it isn't because I am particularly good; it's because the opposition lacks aim.
skill, at least as an average, is a function of time passed since release of a game and the size of the community. If the NS2 community grows and as time passes since release, I've no doubt that the skill of NS2 players will reach, or even exceed, that of their NS1 counterparts.
Doesn't look so easy to implement though :
<a href="http://www.funender.com/quake/articles/strafing_theory.html" target="_blank">http://www.funender.com/quake/articles/strafing_theory.html</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cool link! I'm gonna be lost reading this for a while now.
I think there's a similar page from somebody who helped John Carmack program the quake 1 engine (all about graphics, networking etc)...does that ring a bell?
Group A
People who put alot time in a game want a rewarding mechanic so there is a noticable difference in skill. You watch a pro and immediately recognize this guy has skill. You watch Joe average, you see it. These people want the game balanced that they'll win 9 of 10 times in an even match against Joe because they deserve it.
Group B
People who dont want/can put much time in a game don't want to get rolled by "no-lifers" every time. It's frustrating to get spawncamped. Game mechanics should dull the pros down so they have a somewhat fair chance winning.
Well, based on the game we play we all are sometimes in Group A or in Group B and yell at the devs to benefit ourselves only.
You can easily pretend the Group B problems by <b>proper matchmaking</b>. Chess newbs don't play against grandmasters, they play against other newbs and the world is fine. When you ladder in SC2 you'll get opponents in your skill level so your win/lose ratio isn't frustrating for you, no matter how bad you are. When you look for a 5v5 in CS in IRC you ask for newb/mid/pro level.
But you cannot satisfy Group A once you dulled the gameplay.
I personally cannot enjoy FPS anymore without the possibility to add depth with movement skill since I learned it. It was different before I learned it and I yelled myself at the "scripters" and "macro users" and whatnot how unfair the world would be...instead of just learning the mechanics. It's almost impossible to describe how different a game feels once you changed the way you play it by putting effort into it (not even measured in time since you could play NS1 10 years as joe average and never learn important basics). Imagine a guy who never had sex telling you he doesn't need a woman/man...ask again after he had his first time. I don't know one single person who mastered NS1 movements and want them gone.
This is really the best solution to accommodate both sides. It will also help people who want to improve their skill since getting pounded into the dirt by someone an order of magnitude better than you is less helpful than someone who may only be just a bit better than you.
Anyhow - Does anyone know how well walljumping is supposed to work atm? I'm utterly baffeled by it atm. Sometimes I get a huge speed bonus from nowhere, then I'm like, "hey, lets get more speed/maintain this speed by making a walljump" I get the roar and all and my speed DECREASES. It's just... I don't understand it anymore. At all.