About game balance...
Deagle2
Join Date: 2010-11-30 Member: 75360Members
Join Date: 2010-11-30 Member: 75360Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Please don't only focus on winning percentages</div>I don't know if this is worth creating a new topic but I hope to be noticed so...
Please UWE, you seem realy happy that your game balance is around 50%, and this is good, but to me it's not the only important thing about balance.
Another important thing is the time spent to the end of a game. I have in mind two different things :
- Sometimes, the game doesn't last long, there's clearly a difference in skills between the two team, also probably due to the commander wich has such an important role.
- Also what might happen is that the game lasts more than an hour, with both team being kind of stuck, and strugling for the same area untill a team manage to put enough defenses so there is no way to take it back. Games are kinda like action movies to me, it's gotta move one way or another to be interesting.
[Edit] What I forgot to say is that also while the game lasts long, it's sometimes obvious since the beginning wich team is going to win.
To me winning/losing fast is not a bad thing, it's just sad when it's just about the commander's skill difference. It means that a game wich can currently hold up to 16 players depends much more on 2.
However spending one hour on a game might be fun when you have plenty of time... But for lots of people that's not the case.
Plus I'd rather spend that hour playing to game of 30min and thus having to chance to win, than play a hell of a long game and just be disapointed of losing.
I just hope you focus your balance on the whole game, and not just the end.
That said, I know balance is probably a very hair-pulling task and I know you're doing your best at it, I love the feeling of your game and it's potential.
I don't know if other people think like. But at least you know the way I see it.
Keep up the great work.
Please UWE, you seem realy happy that your game balance is around 50%, and this is good, but to me it's not the only important thing about balance.
Another important thing is the time spent to the end of a game. I have in mind two different things :
- Sometimes, the game doesn't last long, there's clearly a difference in skills between the two team, also probably due to the commander wich has such an important role.
- Also what might happen is that the game lasts more than an hour, with both team being kind of stuck, and strugling for the same area untill a team manage to put enough defenses so there is no way to take it back. Games are kinda like action movies to me, it's gotta move one way or another to be interesting.
[Edit] What I forgot to say is that also while the game lasts long, it's sometimes obvious since the beginning wich team is going to win.
To me winning/losing fast is not a bad thing, it's just sad when it's just about the commander's skill difference. It means that a game wich can currently hold up to 16 players depends much more on 2.
However spending one hour on a game might be fun when you have plenty of time... But for lots of people that's not the case.
Plus I'd rather spend that hour playing to game of 30min and thus having to chance to win, than play a hell of a long game and just be disapointed of losing.
I just hope you focus your balance on the whole game, and not just the end.
That said, I know balance is probably a very hair-pulling task and I know you're doing your best at it, I love the feeling of your game and it's potential.
I don't know if other people think like. But at least you know the way I see it.
Keep up the great work.
Comments
<b>You can use those statistics to prove a game is unbalanced, but not that it is balanced</b>.
As such the devs really need to stop using the word balanced and statistics in the same sentence.
Also, I've seen this concern voiced in at least 3 threads, so I'll re-paste Cory's response to it in this one:
<!--quoteo(post=1944732:date=Jun 18 2012, 09:58 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jun 18 2012, 09:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944732"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Geeze guys, no one is implying the game is balanced and that there are no problems. The tweet simply shows the recorded stat numbers from 210 have brought the win/loss ratio more in line, and it seems like a step in the right direction. Of course there are all sorts of reasons for those numbers and we are working on getting much more specific information recorded per game, to make better sense of the win numbers.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Deagle2 - You need to give us more of the benefit of the doubt mate :). Thank you for those kind words at the end of your post. To address your concerns:
Like most of the posts I or anyone else from UWE makes, there is much that is not said. We tend to be flamed on the forums no matter what we post. For example:
- Yesterday we managed to get 32 people in a game. A brilliant milestone! But met with negativity.
- Yesterday we teased that the exosuit was alive and moving about in internal testing. Judging by the forum posts, this was apparently a bad thing!
Here, we are being chastised for posting the good news that the win/loss ratio for both teams is falling closer to 50-50. This is, in isolation, a good thing. Clear and simple. People can theorise all they want about the deep-and-meaningful problems with balance, as if we believe that the balance is spot on because the teams are at 50-50. All you are doing is taking a small piece of isolated good news and over-complicating it, and making the devs that read the forums sad.
on paper 50-50 looks good but how those numbers are gained isn't when you've got two biased maps. Docking (that new map that has a couple 24/7 servers now) is marine favored due to the ease of ARCing hives. it probably just cancels out the statistics of alien domination on mineshaft. not trying to make the devs sad but red flags go up on our end when we see a tweet of celebration due to some (potentially meaningless) percentages.
and that statistics should be used with a lot care and completed by subjective experience.
The subjective experience of many people after some play time of 210 was that the balance was completely broken
due to the economy, the nano-construct spam, etc.
In this context being told that the balance is awesome in 210 because of the 50/50 percent winrate, is a bit... weird? I don't know.
Anyway, it's not a big deal, but this kind of misunderstanding are also expected when people try to touch complex notions using 140 characters.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow, the balance in NS2 210 is awesome! ns2_tram is now at 51% aliens, 49% marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>You can use those statistics to prove a game is unbalanced, but not that it is balanced</b>.
As such the devs really need to stop using the word balanced and statistics in the same sentence.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Presuming the win stat data is collected for 1000 matches and the null hypothesis is that NS2 has a 50% alien win rate, then it would be more precise to say that the B210 stats fail to reject that NS2 is balanced. However, that's a confusing way to say it so I don't fault UWE from just calling it balanced.
<!--quoteo(post=1945884:date=Jun 22 2012, 12:43 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Jun 22 2012, 12:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945884"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here, we are being chastised for posting the good news that the win/loss ratio for both teams is falling closer to 50-50. This is, in isolation, a good thing. Clear and simple. People can theorise all they want about the deep-and-meaningful problems with balance, as if we believe that the balance is spot on because the teams are at 50-50. All you are doing is taking a small piece of isolated good news and over-complicating it, and making the devs that read the forums sad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't be sad, devs. It's just that posting threads about what we think you're doing right all day doesn't make for very interesting discussion. Also, we're all very eager to see what's coming from build to build, so we hang on your every word. :p
<b>But if you need some reassuring comments on the game, lots of things are just great, art asset is awesome, sounds are very well done, I especially love the different aliens ability, and the pleasure of one-shotting a skulk with a shotgun. Docking looks great already, as do the other maps. Gorge is cute lerk flies nicely, onos is just epic... Marines weapons are cool jetpack is awesome... Oh and personnaly I'm happy about the 32 players and the exosuit comming.</b>
Statistics would tell you that people tend to more often mark bad points than good points =D.
We have the individual stats for each map. So far, Docking is the most balanced map of all of them, according to the statistics -- more so then even Summit. So, ARC issues aside, the win / loss ratio on Docking has been pretty even.
Even so, we've already moved rooms on Docking to reduce the amount of siege spots for ARCs. We aren't just sitting back and letting the numbers dictate everything with the game design, but they are a useful contributing bit of information to help inform us.
--Cory
Balance was so horrid in 209 I found myself exulting over 210 balance and was happy to see numbers reflected this somehow, doubt anyone ran around telling people JP'S ARE FINE ARCS NEED BUFFS JUST L2P because of statistics.
But I guess it boils down to this: You don't post when you're happy, you're too busy playing NS2.
disagree
       |
       |
       |
      \/
IMO that is because you don't communicate well enough with the community. I know others will disagree with me. You do those QA sessions on the stream and post on the forums sometimes, but to me there is very little information in those. They are just like FAQ answers. A lot of the development is hidden from the community. The devs never communicate why they are doing certain changes or what they are thinking about changing and the reasons for it. They don't communicate what the overall plan is for certain mechanics or what they are trying to work towards. There is absolutely no dialogue with the community at all.
It just feels like PR spin coming from UWE most of the time with "we are working on that..." "We won an awesome award!!"....I don't care about any of that crap. I already paid for the game.
It's strange because you would think a former mod team would be more open than any dev, but it doesn't seem to be the case.
Developers post here as people, we drop our shields, enter conversations, and let you in. We read what you say and must develop a thick skin. But a post as vicious as that... It leaves a bloke feeling like its time to take a long break from reading or posting here at all.
You have the privilege to see the development of the game that you love (i assume that since you bought it while it still is in beta). You witness it growing constantly into something awesome. Give the devs a break.
And yes, you were right, your comment will be met with negativity.
It just feels like PR spin coming from UWE most of the time with "we are working on that..." "We won an awesome award!!"....I don't care about any of that crap. I already paid for the game.
It's strange because you would think a former mod team would be more open than any dev, but it doesn't seem to be the case.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You must be joking. Do you think you're a majority shareholder in UWE now or what? They already communicate more openly than almost any other dev in the business. If you honestly believe what you're saying then you simply haven't been paying attention to all the information they make available to the public on a daily basis.
FYI, the reason most devs don't share anything at all with their community is exactly because of attitudes like this.
If you want to gauge the actual community reaction, throw a popup asking for a rating after the 10th game played on a build (Iphone apps style, opening a steam browser window on click, and only shown as long as it's not switching maps).
Back to the issue of balance. Win ratio of 50/50 does say that the game is balanced looking from the team as a viewpoint. It might not say anything about class balance or weapon balance. But at least team vs team, the game is balanced.
It is a shame, however, that most of the ideas they seem to accept from the forums, are the really bad ones.
I wouldn't blame the dev's for lack of communication however, obviously they have other things to do (like a game) than reading the entire forum and participating in lengthy debates. But it is true from what I've seen they don't engage much in the discussions, meaning doing long dialogs, and discussing the different arguments in depth.
It's also true that some features or changes are not really motivated (or even mentioned) in the patch notes, and this can get some people confused about the goals of theses changes. For example why the costs were not kept constant from 209 to 210. Sometimes we even need to read the lua files to know how things are working (fade blink, onos armor after charge, ..).
It just feels like PR spin coming from UWE most of the time with "we are working on that..." "We won an awesome award!!"....I don't care about any of that crap. I already paid for the game.
It's strange because you would think a former mod team would be more open than any dev, but it doesn't seem to be the case.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, man. I'm not sure you thought this post through before you submitted it. I -hate- quite a few mechanics and design choices in NS2 and I post about them frequently, but UWE communicates more than any other game company. I think that's an advantage of their smaller, independent team. I'd always love more communication, specifically to address players when they complain about a mechanic, ability, or relative balance with either a "we agree" or "we disagree and here's why:" response. I also understand why that is difficult to do.
It's truly intellectually dishonest to claim UWE's communication is bad when compared to their peers.
a) <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/progress" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/progress</a>
b) <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/139ySUrBsO0m0Z4ilq0YsDEHJLQhBa6RrIjJIsckL2kE/edit?hl=en&authkey=CLCo8Z0J&pli=1" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/document/d/139ySUrB...o8Z0J&pli=1</a>
c) NS2HD's hiring, podcasts, and casts
You don't get that kind of development information from any other company.
<!--quoteo(post=1945915:date=Jun 22 2012, 05:09 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Jun 22 2012, 05:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945915"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wilson, that post has to be pretty much the most soul-crushing, for me personally, that I have ever seen on this forum.
Developers post here as people, we drop our shields, enter conversations, and let you in. We read what you say and must develop a thick skin. But a post as vicious as that... It leaves a bloke feeling like its time to take a long break from reading or posting here at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's just the internet, bro. Everyone posting on these forums does so because they want NS2 to succeed. It's important to remember that even when reading a negative opinion, a rage post, or a soul crushing complaint.
Developers post here as people, we drop our shields, enter conversations, and let you in. We read what you say and must develop a thick skin. But a post as vicious as that... It leaves a bloke feeling like its time to take a long break from reading or posting here at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe you're in the wrong job then if you can't handle criticism. I almost didn't post that as I knew there would be a barrage of fanboys defending UWE, but it is my honest opinion. I was not trying to be vicious in any way. As far as I'm concerned Hugh, you are just a PR guy - you are unable to answer questions or communicate about design decisions or technical tasks because you don't know. That's fair enough, don't take it personally.
To illustrate what I think is good community interaction. Take a look at spyparty.com, a couple of weeks ago Chris Hecker posted a blog post on balance. He was being completely transparent about his thoughts and even shows some personal conversations he had with some of the better players in the beta about game balance. Compared to this, UWE are like a closed book. A tiny twitter post implying that the game is balanced as the stats are close to 50/50 and then you wonder why people start questioning it on the forums.
Anyone who posts criticism on the forum is shunned because they are not part of the circle jerk. I'm more from the school of thought that all feedback is valuable. I was actually surprised to see Cory post thanking people for feedback on docking and saying how they would like to get out WIP versions for people to try out. That is awesome. I'd love to see you opening up more to the community like that. You have a great resource of all these players constantly playing the game for hours and hours giving lots of feedback, use it!
And NS2HD does really need to grow a thicker skin, I think that is the 3rd post I've seen from him today that goes on about sadness\feelings.
[EDIT]
Oh about that tweet, I wouldn't really care about it if it wasn't like the 3rd or 4th time I've seen such a tweet in the span of this beta. It just comes across as if they actually mean what they're saying. The crazy thing is they probably don't, as is evident by Cory's post, yet for some reason every now and again these incredibly schizophrenic remarks are put out there that defy their better judgement. It's confusing, and I'm linking it with that dumbing-down of communication I talked about.
<!--quoteo(post=1922992:date=Apr 7 2012, 04:53 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 7 2012, 04:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1922992"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->LOL.
dude.. i dont know what experience you have with game developers and their communication abilities, but i have had a lot and there are large differences that UWE makes besides the obvious occasional post. (which is still way more than most)
Theres the progress tracker where you can see what they are working on
Theres high level design documents so you understand the big picture and philosophy
Theres facebook, livestream, youtube, twitter, wiki, irc, forum and email.
These guys give us hourly updates on twitter, full weekly changelogs, and they even provide the occasional tech support on top of showing us their working quarters.
They even livestream the playtests now.
The best part? they take into account feedback from the community when issues are large enough. there are many occasions a simple post changed the mind of the creative director. <b>this is huge - the ability to help shape your game that you love!</b>
<i><u>Who else does all this?</u></i>
Not to mention the fact they do it all with only a few people.
Go email a dev at bioware with questions about their product in a specific manner and see if you get a response, even with their multiple PR reps, execs, managers etc. then do the same to UWE and compare.
its my single most favorite aspect of pre ordering
<b>Edit</b>: dont forget you have direct line of communication with it's playtesters! steam me or PM me, i can help get your bug submitted. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1945930:date=Jun 22 2012, 03:17 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 22 2012, 03:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945930"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe you're in the wrong job then if you can't handle criticism.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect</a>
Did get me thinking about what would happen if you fully crowd sourced a modern game instead of letting the dev's take the lead: i'm thinking a mish mash of cool ideas like laser frogs and jet packed dinosaurs bunny hopping around a de_dust remake set in space like rainbow ######'s...
@ironhorse: I enjoyed both the wiki and the link in your sig.
Sounds awesome.
Actually, the reason i personally try to be so critical of NS2 is because i treat it as a completed game. The difference is, these faults arn't simply different flavours and opinions as Dr. Johnson is referring to but boil down to hard mechanical problems. It's like releasing a novel with jarringly bad spelling/grammar. Simply telling someone its complete doesn't magically make them believe it was all intended and love it (unless they couldn't spell themselves).
Sure, Dr. Johnson makes a very keen observation, but lets have some perspective about the context here.
It just feels like PR spin coming from UWE most of the time with "we are working on that..." "We won an awesome award!!"....I don't care about any of that crap. I already paid for the game.
It's strange because you would think a former mod team would be more open than any dev, but it doesn't seem to be the case.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1945930:date=Jun 22 2012, 10:17 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 22 2012, 10:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945930"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe you're in the wrong job then if you can't handle criticism. I almost didn't post that as I knew there would be a barrage of fanboys defending UWE, but it is my honest opinion. I was not trying to be vicious in any way. As far as I'm concerned Hugh, you are just a PR guy - you are unable to answer questions or communicate about design decisions or technical tasks because you don't know. That's fair enough, don't take it personally.
To illustrate what I think is good community interaction. Take a look at spyparty.com, a couple of weeks ago Chris Hecker posted a blog post on balance. He was being completely transparent about his thoughts and even shows some personal conversations he had with some of the better players in the beta about game balance. Compared to this, UWE are like a closed book. A tiny twitter post implying that the game is balanced as the stats are close to 50/50 and then you wonder why people start questioning it on the forums.
Anyone who posts criticism on the forum is shunned because they are not part of the circle jerk. I'm more from the school of thought that all feedback is valuable. I was actually surprised to see Cory post thanking people for feedback on docking and saying how they would like to get out WIP versions for people to try out. That is awesome. I'd love to see you opening up more to the community like that. You have a great resource of all these players constantly playing the game for hours and hours giving lots of feedback, use it!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Almost everytime i see you post <!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>WILSON</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> it's always negativity to the devs. Stop having your regular attitude problem, instead take a deep breath and do something else for a whiled. If you never learn to stop your whining, then just <!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->LEAVE<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> this community. We don't want to hear more of your negativity. Just go... I really pity you for your behaviour.