<!--quoteo(post=1946825:date=Jun 26 2012, 05:38 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jun 26 2012, 05:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946825"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We have given the skulk a pseudo rifle. 1 parasite is the equivalent to a melee bite that should have been earned through skillfun planning<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh... what? It most certainly not equal to a bite. The only time it seems that way is when marines are at armor 0 when 2 bites and 1 parasite is JUST ENOUGH damage to kill a marine. After armor 1 comes out parasite no longer makes it so you need 1 less bite to kill a marine.
P.S. Parasite only does 10 normal damage if you'd like to know the exact value.
So, the only time the parasite is a pseudo rifle is at the most important point of the game? I am more than aware that armor upgrades negate parasite. The problem is marines don't always get armor 1st and it takes time and res to even get an arms lab.
All the while you have skulks with a 200 foot long bite and leap. Do you not see the problem Industry?
<!--quoteo(post=1946837:date=Jun 26 2012, 06:18 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jun 26 2012, 06:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946837"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, the only time the parasite is a pseudo rifle is at the most important point of the game? I am more than aware that armor upgrades negate parasite. The problem is marines don't always get armor 1st and it takes time and res to even get an arms lab.
All the while you have skulks with a 200 foot long bite and leap. Do you not see the problem Industry?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is leap <60 seconds in the game, not parasite. Early game skulk vs lmg prior to leap is the most balanced and enjoyable part of the match.
You're right... the problem is moreso leap than parasite. But the parasite really shouldn't equal (Not damage wise but practice wise) a single bite.
But the parasite is OP... so is leap. So, put them together are... well you know what I am going to say.
I wont recant my opinion that parasite is stupid that it allows a marine to die in 2 bites.
Parasite should only be for tracking marines and structures... not to do damage enough to kill a marine after he's been hit twice. That is complete trash.
Medpacks also should not get rid of parasites... only an armory should be able to do that... perhaps at the cost of pres.
That way parasite will actually be useful throughout the entire game... and not be used as a combat engagement ender.
<!--quoteo(post=1946840:date=Jun 26 2012, 06:24 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jun 26 2012, 06:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're right... the problem is moreso leap than parasite. But the parasite really shouldn't equal (Not damage wise but practice wise) a single bite. It wasn't this way in ns1 for a reason. Asymmetry....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless my memory is failing me, NS1 had exactly that. Parasite + 2xBite = Dead at Armor 0
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Medpacks also should not get rid of parasites... only an armory should be able to do that... perhaps at the cost of pres.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would agree with this if medpacks were still on energy. Now that they are on TRes I feel that the tradeoff for parasite removal in the field is awesome, the economy just needs to be properly adjusted so medpacks aren't spammy.
Parasiting in NS2 is actually far less viable than NS1 where it was standard to parasite+2x bite. In NS2 parasite puts a godawful delay on bite and it's not really viable to do in close range. :/
Then again in NS1 skulks really did actually take only 10 bullets to kill, whereas NS2 they are 20-30 because of non-existant hit reg. ://///
<!--quoteo(post=1946843:date=Jun 26 2012, 07:34 PM:name=Smasher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smasher @ Jun 26 2012, 07:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946843"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was 2 bites + 1 parasite = kill on 0 armor marine in NS1, did you play it?
I disagree with pretty much everything you said, except that the game should probably be worked on some more, which it is..
Also
Lol :p
You make good posts though, even though I disagree with almost all of it. The more "good discussions" that are going on (for UWE to read) the better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Derp, I knew that. I musta been thinking about how leap did a little damage and how parasite also did a little damage but not a lot. Parasite seems more prominent in NS2 for combat purposes though.
Aside from that I don't expect basically anyone to read and comprehend my opinions but that wont stop me from honestly expressing my opinion. I know the way I convey my opinions probably keeps anyone from accepting them or thinking more deeply about what I had to say.
See the problem is that I play this game around 65 hours per week, so I am pretty intimately familiar with the game. I come from a hardcore twitch FPS background (quake and cs 1.6) so my opinions are always going to be swayed moreso towards a skill-based gameplay formula and less of a gimmick or cheese based formula.
If I was designing this game there would be no player armor or weapons upgrades. This whole concept fundamentally imbalances the game if you really think about it. Imagine if cs 1.6 you got more damage and armor than the other team with each round that you win... would that be balanced? Play fy_snow... the winning team always gets 2-4 grenades and usually has a substantial amount of guys that kept armor or got armor that round... balanced? Hell no. Gimmicky... but was it fun? Yes... but would it ever be played competitive....? No... it wouldn't.
I see gimmicks taking precedence in NS2 and abolishing all rights to skill-based play. Others will call me a crackpot but I can assure you many people who never played NS1 or other quake based games will come to this confused as to why they are putting an entire clip into a fade and getting 2 swiped to death. That players skill could have been higher than the fade but unfortunately is bottlenecked by redundant upgrades. This will never change in NS2 so its something I have come to accept.
Through my near 1000 hours of gameplay I have really noticed a lot of things I would like to see in the game that I know in my heart would make it better. It's not my game but that wont stop me from expressing my opinion of what I think is right.
The truth is that the skulk vs marine gameplay is flawed and in my opinion could be fixed by streamlining and tweaking gun values... at least for the time being until performance increase.
Right now the amount of bulletspread on the lmg is too high to be good at extreme range and too low to be effective at all up close. So I see myself playing in a very akward and unintuitive way to compensate for this... what I do is always keep my angles wide and keep my back to walls... always keep the maximum amount of distance possible from the enemy... because in this game twitch aim doesn't matter as much as tracing a target... since it takes 3000 bullets to kill a skulk... not to mention they move like crazy everywhere.
If I made the game I would make skulks deal a lot more damage but make them a LOT more vulnerable to the LMG. Right now the combat is hilarious... it consists of 2 players hopping around eachother praying that one of them does more damage first.
And a lot of that is decided on which player has better upgrades (Mostly out of their control in the first place).
<!--quoteo(post=1946825:date=Jun 26 2012, 07:38 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jun 26 2012, 07:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946825"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Upon further refection I have thought that perhaps the LMG's effective range is set too much for mid range combat. Let's be honest... how often are people killing skulks at long to medium ranges? It doesn't happen often because skulks aren't stupid and don't put themselves in the effective range for the LMG. Why not make the LMG more effective at close range by raising the bullet spread? Perhaps add a mechanic like CS where the more you spray the less accurate you are at a distance. It makes sense to me and I am usually killing skulks near point blank range every time (Where the LMG is least effective).
Consider my thoughts...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Man, no. Increasing spread will NEVER MAKE YOU MORE ACCURATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Increasing the spread of an LMG is not beneficial in any way, shape, or form. It is a pure nerf. An increased spread will result in more shots missing the skulk that would otherwise hit than it would result in shots hitting the skulk that would otherwise miss.
(there are only 168 hours in a week, if you played 130 of them.. that would be 77% of your time, or ~18 hours a day) ;p
<!--quoteo(post=1946855:date=Jun 26 2012, 08:01 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 26 2012, 08:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946855"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Man, no. Increasing spread will NEVER MAKE YOU MORE ACCURATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Increasing the spread of an LMG is not beneficial in any way, shape, or form. It is a pure nerf. An increased spread will result in more shots missing the skulk that would otherwise hit than it would result in shots hitting the skulk that would otherwise miss.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not when they are up close. The lmg just feels TOO accurate thus demanding perfect accuracy on targets that move around insane... either that or the bullet size is incredibly small (Which I believe it is).
The problem is we can't hit ###### with the lmg. Why do you think that is Gorgeous? I doubt it has to do with reg. I've always been an advocate of lower skulk carapace or adding more bullets to the lmg. At present you are incredibly lucky if you can get 2 kills in one magazine with the lmg. I did that all the time in NS1.
You can get what... 2-3 kills as a single skulk with no loss of energy to keep spamming bite? While the marine craps his pants from getting 2 clean kills with the LMG because its almost unheard of. The shotgun however you can easily get 3 kills in one magazine... which is why its extremely superior and almost necessary for combating skulks.
Do you want the screenshot of my steam hours? Sure you do. I meant to say in the past 2 weeks...
<!--quoteo(post=1946856:date=Jun 26 2012, 09:05 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jun 26 2012, 09:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946856"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not when they are up close. The lmg just feels TOO accurate thus demanding perfect accuracy on targets that move around insane... either that or the bullet size is incredibly small (Which I believe it is).
The problem is we can't hit ###### with the lmg. Why do you think that is Gorgeous? I doubt it has to do with reg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, even up close. More spread will result in less hits assuming you're at least somewhat competent at aiming.
I think you're completely discounting the fact that increasing spread causes you to miss bullets that would otherwise hit. There is nothing more frustrating than having your shots not count.
Increasing spread will make the lmg even worse versus skulks.
I really enjoy the LMG how it is at the moment. Ive played about 115 hours of NS2 now (On the back of countless hours for NS1) and am after only recently playing more games as a marine I have realised how much my aim has improved.
I find that like in NS1, aiming versus a leaping skulk is less to do with tracing the target, and more knowing where the skulk will most likely end up after performing the leap, jumping out of the way and shooting him as he lands.
@.ADHd: It's about skulk velocity. Leap is just another way to go FAST. Currently, pro skulks can do a frontal assault 1v1 down a corridor and have a decent chance to win. They shouldn't stand a chance in that scenario! You don't need to hide and ambush like you did with NS1, and in fact hiding and ambushing is more difficult than it should be for several reasons (mini-map in particular).
By all means, have a bigger, tougher skulk than NS1 but don't give him warp speed as well. Once a skulk closes the distance to a marine the odds of survival should flip in favour of the skulk. This seems insanely obvious but I feel it needs to be said: Speed allows a skulk to close distance faster, which translates to less reaction+firing time for the marine.
One of the tricky problems UWE now has is that if they nerf skulks it will take a really long time to change ingrained skulk behavior, they'll still try to do headlong fights then complain when it doesn't work and their server stats will show marines winning more often.
I really don't want to be one of those guys who's all "NS1 was heaps better" but at the moment there are a couple of issues where NS2 has moved backwards.
I think there is two problems with skulk vs marine. The first and largest is simply performance... I can generally track skulks walljumping about mostly spot on, even ones the explicitly try just to be evasive... I however often find im simply just a tiny bit behind the skulk always, as im battling low fps and the others issues like input delays that come with it. The other is the animations and other small oddities in the skulks movement, which make the angles it moves at not always match the visual.
Regarding lmg accuracy increasing it is just bad, you want it as accurate as possible (while being balanced).... NS1 had way faster moving smaller targets, and the lmg was just fine there.
I think that 10 bullets in theory should mean 10 bullets in practise, not bloody 25. I think skulks should be very fast, but commited to a trajectory once they start it (no mid air manoeuvring bull-****) but also fragile more like they were in NS1 (I dunno about the specifics but they sure died faster there than in NS2).
zombiehellmonkeyJoin Date: 2007-08-31Member: 62093Members, Squad Five Blue
Like someone said already, I also feel the hit registration is off - until that is fixed/verified, there's no point changing either the skulk or LMG.
I do like ADhd's idea of adding recoil to the guns that affects the spread by how long you hold the trigger - the spread at close range for a LMG would not be that large anyway, then you could increase the damage of the weapon so that close combat it is more effective, while at range it is less effective.
So I have a few things that need to be said/gotten off my chest for a little bit. First off: Gameplay hours or experience held in competitive shooters does not hold an ounce of weight in a discussion about a game in beta, especially a game in beta that is choppy for a good majority. I'm tired of seeing this tried to be held as a serious argument. It seems childish, if not only elitist. Someone who has played the game for 30 minutes or 300 hours can come up with a similar opinion; in the end it's the validity of the argument/opinion and not the amount of hours played. I'm sorry to come off so strong and harsh but this is something that really makes me angry. Let's not mention that some peoples rigs are better than others granting better performance in the end. It's an unfair advantage as of right now.
Now, on to the realness.
Three things that I believe need to be changed/have an opinion on.
1) Turret spam. If we're to have maps along the same size as Docking (if not larger) we need to do something about the amount of structures in a room. My suggestion would be upgrades to power nodes throughout the game. I suppose it wouldn't be a big stretch from holding a base in Command and Conquer. In effect, as your structures increase the load of power would start to reach a maximum. Maybe it could be a maximum per room or per the size of a room but seeing as how any room can house just about an infinite amount of structures at any time it becomes a tad annoying in the mid game, mainly because of turret spam. Upgrades to the power node would allow more structures to be placed/reinforce the node.
I realize and understand that building limits don't really want to be placed on the game but I feel that once you can lift the limit it becomes a game of scale and more important on strategy/building forward bases. Also, I realize people hate the power node/cyst aspect but this is just a suggestion for what we have.
2) Let's talk about ARCs. Oh the bane of my existence in Docking. This one is fairly simple IMO. If we're going to continue with the whole "Nanites power everything" route then not only should the power need to be on from where the ARCs fire, but also where they are directed. Let's face it, it takes about 10 seconds to build a node, if even 10 seconds. A good rush of marines could pull this off while the comm initiates the ARCs first fire sequence. This would break the aliens into two or three groups. You'd need to take out the marines quickly. An onos would be good defense as you could use stomp very effectively, or spore as a lerk although that would be far less effective. A second group could try and take out the ARCs as fast as possible as the first takes out the node and a third attacks the marines reinforcements as an offensive/defensive strategy. How this would affect my power node argument up above? I have no idea. This is for discussion purposes only. I've left out clogging/whipping the hell out of nodes so let's find a good alien asymmetry/symmetry yes?
3) Celerity. Let's do something a bit more than "Make every lifeform run really fast!". Although my ideas aren't much better there's at least one that makes sense to me and it's for the skulk. Let's have walljumping mean something and improve that instead of the skulks run speed. Skulks need to be rewarded for their skill based movement not just holding W and M1 once close. I see the threads about bunnyhopping and I understand the sentiment behind it but let's face it, bunnyhopping was never a movement design that was designed. Bunnyhopping was a flaw. A fun one, but still a flaw in gameplay design. NS2 has skill based movement in how well you can walljump (and yes I realize the flaws in walljumping at the moment and they are EXTREMELY annoying) or evading aliens as a marine. I'll list the lifeforms and my ideas for them below.
A) Skulks: Should improve walljumps after about 3 or 4 consecutive perfect jumps to speeds around build 209 or 208 or so. Sorry if my memory serves me badly about when movement was very quick about walljumping. This makes the most sense to me, and I hope others, about an advancement in skill based movement.
B) Lerks: I suppose the standard "move really fast" would apply to lerks, please add some input if you've got anything else.
C) Fade: We have three choices, more or less. First off: increase the standard walking speed of fades. Nothing crazy, even by a fifth at most would be fine. Fades are the most annoying to hit already, they don't need a gigantic boost to either blink or shadowstep and there are only a few things we could do about either. One would be decreasing the energy cost, which I feel isn't a great idea as it's fine where it is. Another idea would be to increase the speed of how fast either ability causes you to travel, which would be the second best idea I suppose. And by "how fast" I mean that you could still travel the same distance but you would, in fact, be harder to trace after celerity upgrades.
D) Onos: Buff the sprint speed only, or like the fade make the standard run speed a slight bit faster.
That's all I've got for you folks. I'm not trying to sit here and say "NERF MARINES BUFF ALIENS!!!!" these are just the suggestions I have off the top of my head at this moment. I'm sure we can continue this discussion pretty decently. Also, if I've hit some subjects that have been brought up before than it's very obvious that, no, I did not use search before posting.
P.S. ADHD don't take my opening sentiments personally, I've seen this come up a few times and while I do respect and understand the hours you've put in and where you've come from and arguments you've posted in the past; I just get frustrated when time spent playing comes up as an argument.
@lynchie <ol type='1'><li>For turret spam you've suggested a cap. The rest is just implementation detail & backstory.</li><li>On ARCs & power, to implement your suggestion properly map designers should take those mechanics in to consideration. I'd shy away from those kind of arrangements because it's a bit like the tail wagging the dog.</li><li>It's not clear to me what you think the problem is with celerity to which your suggestion is addressing. I think celerity is fulfilling its design purpose, the ability for lifeforms to relocate and attack from a different flank. It's popular enough to compete with carapace for demand. I think there's more urgent stuff required elsewhere...</li></ol>
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1946854:date=Jun 27 2012, 01:53 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jun 27 2012, 01:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946854"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right now the amount of bulletspread on the lmg is too high to be good at extreme range and too low to be effective at all up close.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, this is not how accurate aiming works. The only reason a wide spread can be helpful IRL is because even just one pellet or bullet hitting the target usually means incapacitation or death. In games, however, you need many pellets or bullets to hit in order to get a kill. In that scenario, less spread is always (provided you are not completely inept at aiming) beneficial, regardless of range.This is plainly obvious when using the shotgun, or conversely the pistol, so I don't understand how it's even possible to come to the conclusion you have.
<!--quoteo(post=1946840:date=Jun 27 2012, 01:24 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jun 27 2012, 01:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wont recant my opinion that parasite is stupid that it allows a marine to die in 2 bites.
Parasite should only be for tracking marines and structures... not to do damage enough to kill a marine after he's been hit twice. That is complete trash.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What you are describing is one of the most beautiful mechanics from NS1. It's a shame you don't understand it and are willing to dismiss it just because you have problems playing marine at the moment.
1. It adds a skill element that can be learnt and improved on through practice -- either by parasiting while you're closing the distance towards the marine or by parasiting if you lose contact with the marine during an engagement.
2. It adds another incentive to use parasite (the original reason why it was implemented in version 3.0 of NS1).
It's a shame parasites can be healed by medpacks though, as it is a massive disincentive to using parasites for anything other than pure combat.
3. It helps balance weapon upgrades vs. armor upgrades. Before A0 = 2bites + parasite / A1 = 3 bites was implemented in NS1, good marine commanders never, ever, upgraded W1 first. Everything was pre-decided because that upgrade from A0 = 2 bites to A1 = 3 bites was so much more powerful than the W1 upgrade. After the change, the upgrades were more balanced, which allowed for new build orders.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1946714:date=Jun 26 2012, 04:51 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jun 26 2012, 04:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946714"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe JPs should come at an armour trade-off<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The trade-off is that you can't use an exo while using a jetpack -- a choice between armor and mobility.
I agree with the other poster who suggested making weapon "weight" affect jetpack flight speed and recharge rate -- this is how it was handled in NS1. The difference betweem the machine gun and shotgun shouldn't be large though -- the shotgun really is a jetpacker's weapon. Aiming accurately with a machine gun while flying a jetpack is one of the hardest skills to master.
I just disagree that parasite is made less useful by medpacks. I like tying up the enemy commander's time & attention. Though to be fair that's mostly becasue of the horrible comm UI.
<!--quoteo(post=1946954:date=Jun 27 2012, 09:10 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 27 2012, 09:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946954"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've just tested the jetpack and weight. You are definitely slowed when carrying heavier weapons.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->Max flying speed assuming no weapons are dropped:
<!--quoteo(post=1946954:date=Jun 27 2012, 04:10 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 27 2012, 04:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946954"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've just tested the jetpack and weight. You are definitely slowed when carrying heavier weapons.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->Max flying speed assuming no weapons are dropped:
<!--quoteo(post=1946968:date=Jun 27 2012, 11:23 AM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Jun 27 2012, 11:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946968"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And what about fuel? Do they all need the same amount?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know how to evaluate that except for poking through code. The jetpack LUA is a bit confusing. There is a lot of stuff in there.
It didn't look like fuel costs increase or decrease by weight. But by my previous post, the distance traveled, speed, and acceleration is lowered by weight. That means that while fuel cost per time doesn't seem to be increased, fuel cost per distance traveled, speed, and acceleration is increased by weight because weight lowers the effectiveness of the jetpack.
zombiehellmonkeyJoin Date: 2007-08-31Member: 62093Members, Squad Five Blue
Mappers should definitely be given more control over which areas an ARC can operate. Someone suggested that they should only be able to be deployed in rooms with a power node, which I think is a reasonable idea.
The range of the ARC at the moment just means bigger and bigger maps, longer and longer corridors of alien defensive structure spam, and therefore more boring escort the train of death games.
One thing I hate is all the running in the early game, especially to maintain resource towers. Now the early game is faster and shorter, your team being on the wrong side of a large map could be the difference between winning and losing a game.
The ARC has TOO MUCH influence on map design. Who wants to spend most of the game doing a marathon to where the action is?
<!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro-->Depressing? I'll say, it's been about a week and I've played less hours on this build than any other as of yet already.
Personally, my feelings about the jp is if we're keeping this ludicrously cheap cost it should have reduced armor and a greater recharge/fuel use per weapon in exchange for being able to completely avoid most of the lifeforms for a good part of an encounter. Though it wouldn't be most of the lifeforms if leap wasn't so short a leap at the moment, assuming we're really removing the delays on blink. Increasing the cost to something more reasonable though? Yeah I could see just having the weapons effect it being more than fair. Less effective hovering heavy weapons platforms platforms sounds good considering right now just for 10Pres you're negating most of the GL and FF's disadvantage for the moment.
Edit: Oh yes it's a secondary concern to JPs for me right now but ARCs... god are they terrible. Though I'm not sure how I feel about powering the rooms first but I guess it would achieve some of the delay and effort needed of setting up a TF and siege base. Anything's better than how they function right now. I'm simply annoyed with the negative effect they currently have on gameplay, they are not fun nor fairly balanced as of right now. I'm still more behind just seeing the siege turrets and factories make a return at this point. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Comments
Uh... what? It most certainly not equal to a bite. The only time it seems that way is when marines are at armor 0 when 2 bites and 1 parasite is JUST ENOUGH damage to kill a marine. After armor 1 comes out parasite no longer makes it so you need 1 less bite to kill a marine.
P.S. Parasite only does 10 normal damage if you'd like to know the exact value.
All the while you have skulks with a 200 foot long bite and leap. Do you not see the problem Industry?
All the while you have skulks with a 200 foot long bite and leap. Do you not see the problem Industry?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is leap <60 seconds in the game, not parasite. Early game skulk vs lmg prior to leap is the most balanced and enjoyable part of the match.
But the parasite is OP... so is leap. So, put them together are... well you know what I am going to say.
I wont recant my opinion that parasite is stupid that it allows a marine to die in 2 bites.
Parasite should only be for tracking marines and structures... not to do damage enough to kill a marine after he's been hit twice. That is complete trash.
Medpacks also should not get rid of parasites... only an armory should be able to do that... perhaps at the cost of pres.
That way parasite will actually be useful throughout the entire game... and not be used as a combat engagement ender.
I disagree with pretty much everything you said, except that the game should probably be worked on some more, which it is..
Also
<!--quoteo(post=1946825:date=Jun 26 2012, 07:38 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jun 26 2012, 07:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946825"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->railgun parasite<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol :p
You make good posts though, even though I disagree with almost all of it. The more "good discussions" that are going on (for UWE to read) the better.
Unless my memory is failing me, NS1 had exactly that. Parasite + 2xBite = Dead at Armor 0
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Medpacks also should not get rid of parasites... only an armory should be able to do that... perhaps at the cost of pres.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would agree with this if medpacks were still on energy. Now that they are on TRes I feel that the tradeoff for parasite removal in the field is awesome, the economy just needs to be properly adjusted so medpacks aren't spammy.
Then again in NS1 skulks really did actually take only 10 bullets to kill, whereas NS2 they are 20-30 because of non-existant hit reg. ://///
I disagree with pretty much everything you said, except that the game should probably be worked on some more, which it is..
Also
Lol :p
You make good posts though, even though I disagree with almost all of it. The more "good discussions" that are going on (for UWE to read) the better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Derp, I knew that. I musta been thinking about how leap did a little damage and how parasite also did a little damage but not a lot. Parasite seems more prominent in NS2 for combat purposes though.
Aside from that I don't expect basically anyone to read and comprehend my opinions but that wont stop me from honestly expressing my opinion. I know the way I convey my opinions probably keeps anyone from accepting them or thinking more deeply about what I had to say.
See the problem is that I play this game around 65 hours per week, so I am pretty intimately familiar with the game. I come from a hardcore twitch FPS background (quake and cs 1.6) so my opinions are always going to be swayed moreso towards a skill-based gameplay formula and less of a gimmick or cheese based formula.
If I was designing this game there would be no player armor or weapons upgrades. This whole concept fundamentally imbalances the game if you really think about it. Imagine if cs 1.6 you got more damage and armor than the other team with each round that you win... would that be balanced? Play fy_snow... the winning team always gets 2-4 grenades and usually has a substantial amount of guys that kept armor or got armor that round... balanced? Hell no. Gimmicky... but was it fun? Yes... but would it ever be played competitive....? No... it wouldn't.
I see gimmicks taking precedence in NS2 and abolishing all rights to skill-based play. Others will call me a crackpot but I can assure you many people who never played NS1 or other quake based games will come to this confused as to why they are putting an entire clip into a fade and getting 2 swiped to death. That players skill could have been higher than the fade but unfortunately is bottlenecked by redundant upgrades. This will never change in NS2 so its something I have come to accept.
Through my near 1000 hours of gameplay I have really noticed a lot of things I would like to see in the game that I know in my heart would make it better. It's not my game but that wont stop me from expressing my opinion of what I think is right.
The truth is that the skulk vs marine gameplay is flawed and in my opinion could be fixed by streamlining and tweaking gun values... at least for the time being until performance increase.
Right now the amount of bulletspread on the lmg is too high to be good at extreme range and too low to be effective at all up close. So I see myself playing in a very akward and unintuitive way to compensate for this... what I do is always keep my angles wide and keep my back to walls... always keep the maximum amount of distance possible from the enemy... because in this game twitch aim doesn't matter as much as tracing a target... since it takes 3000 bullets to kill a skulk... not to mention they move like crazy everywhere.
If I made the game I would make skulks deal a lot more damage but make them a LOT more vulnerable to the LMG. Right now the combat is hilarious... it consists of 2 players hopping around eachother praying that one of them does more damage first.
And a lot of that is decided on which player has better upgrades (Mostly out of their control in the first place).
Consider my thoughts...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Man, no. Increasing spread will NEVER MAKE YOU MORE ACCURATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Increasing the spread of an LMG is not beneficial in any way, shape, or form. It is a pure nerf. An increased spread will result in more shots missing the skulk that would otherwise hit than it would result in shots hitting the skulk that would otherwise miss.
(there are only 168 hours in a week, if you played 130 of them.. that would be 77% of your time, or ~18 hours a day) ;p
Increasing the spread of an LMG is not beneficial in any way, shape, or form. It is a pure nerf. An increased spread will result in more shots missing the skulk that would otherwise hit than it would result in shots hitting the skulk that would otherwise miss.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not when they are up close. The lmg just feels TOO accurate thus demanding perfect accuracy on targets that move around insane... either that or the bullet size is incredibly small (Which I believe it is).
The problem is we can't hit ###### with the lmg. Why do you think that is Gorgeous? I doubt it has to do with reg. I've always been an advocate of lower skulk carapace or adding more bullets to the lmg. At present you are incredibly lucky if you can get 2 kills in one magazine with the lmg. I did that all the time in NS1.
You can get what... 2-3 kills as a single skulk with no loss of energy to keep spamming bite? While the marine craps his pants from getting 2 clean kills with the LMG because its almost unheard of. The shotgun however you can easily get 3 kills in one magazine... which is why its extremely superior and almost necessary for combating skulks.
Do you want the screenshot of my steam hours? Sure you do. I meant to say in the past 2 weeks...
<img src="http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/7497/sdsdqs.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
btw, I took that screenshot before the week was over... so yes it is actually 130-135.
The problem is we can't hit ###### with the lmg. Why do you think that is Gorgeous? I doubt it has to do with reg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, even up close. More spread will result in less hits assuming you're at least somewhat competent at aiming.
I think you're completely discounting the fact that increasing spread causes you to miss bullets that would otherwise hit. There is nothing more frustrating than having your shots not count.
Increasing spread will make the lmg even worse versus skulks.
I find that like in NS1, aiming versus a leaping skulk is less to do with tracing the target, and more knowing where the skulk will most likely end up after performing the leap, jumping out of the way and shooting him as he lands.
By all means, have a bigger, tougher skulk than NS1 but don't give him warp speed as well. Once a skulk closes the distance to a marine the odds of survival should flip in favour of the skulk. This seems insanely obvious but I feel it needs to be said: Speed allows a skulk to close distance faster, which translates to less reaction+firing time for the marine.
One of the tricky problems UWE now has is that if they nerf skulks it will take a really long time to change ingrained skulk behavior, they'll still try to do headlong fights then complain when it doesn't work and their server stats will show marines winning more often.
I really don't want to be one of those guys who's all "NS1 was heaps better" but at the moment there are a couple of issues where NS2 has moved backwards.
Regarding lmg accuracy increasing it is just bad, you want it as accurate as possible (while being balanced).... NS1 had way faster moving smaller targets, and the lmg was just fine there.
I do like ADhd's idea of adding recoil to the guns that affects the spread by how long you hold the trigger - the spread at close range for a LMG would not be that large anyway, then you could increase the damage of the weapon so that close combat it is more effective, while at range it is less effective.
Now, on to the realness.
Three things that I believe need to be changed/have an opinion on.
1) Turret spam. If we're to have maps along the same size as Docking (if not larger) we need to do something about the amount of structures in a room. My suggestion would be upgrades to power nodes throughout the game. I suppose it wouldn't be a big stretch from holding a base in Command and Conquer. In effect, as your structures increase the load of power would start to reach a maximum. Maybe it could be a maximum per room or per the size of a room but seeing as how any room can house just about an infinite amount of structures at any time it becomes a tad annoying in the mid game, mainly because of turret spam. Upgrades to the power node would allow more structures to be placed/reinforce the node.
I realize and understand that building limits don't really want to be placed on the game but I feel that once you can lift the limit it becomes a game of scale and more important on strategy/building forward bases. Also, I realize people hate the power node/cyst aspect but this is just a suggestion for what we have.
2) Let's talk about ARCs. Oh the bane of my existence in Docking. This one is fairly simple IMO. If we're going to continue with the whole "Nanites power everything" route then not only should the power need to be on from where the ARCs fire, but also where they are directed. Let's face it, it takes about 10 seconds to build a node, if even 10 seconds. A good rush of marines could pull this off while the comm initiates the ARCs first fire sequence. This would break the aliens into two or three groups. You'd need to take out the marines quickly. An onos would be good defense as you could use stomp very effectively, or spore as a lerk although that would be far less effective. A second group could try and take out the ARCs as fast as possible as the first takes out the node and a third attacks the marines reinforcements as an offensive/defensive strategy. How this would affect my power node argument up above? I have no idea. This is for discussion purposes only. I've left out clogging/whipping the hell out of nodes so let's find a good alien asymmetry/symmetry yes?
3) Celerity. Let's do something a bit more than "Make every lifeform run really fast!". Although my ideas aren't much better there's at least one that makes sense to me and it's for the skulk. Let's have walljumping mean something and improve that instead of the skulks run speed. Skulks need to be rewarded for their skill based movement not just holding W and M1 once close. I see the threads about bunnyhopping and I understand the sentiment behind it but let's face it, bunnyhopping was never a movement design that was designed. Bunnyhopping was a flaw. A fun one, but still a flaw in gameplay design. NS2 has skill based movement in how well you can walljump (and yes I realize the flaws in walljumping at the moment and they are EXTREMELY annoying) or evading aliens as a marine. I'll list the lifeforms and my ideas for them below.
A) Skulks: Should improve walljumps after about 3 or 4 consecutive perfect jumps to speeds around build 209 or 208 or so. Sorry if my memory serves me badly about when movement was very quick about walljumping. This makes the most sense to me, and I hope others, about an advancement in skill based movement.
B) Lerks: I suppose the standard "move really fast" would apply to lerks, please add some input if you've got anything else.
C) Fade: We have three choices, more or less. First off: increase the standard walking speed of fades. Nothing crazy, even by a fifth at most would be fine. Fades are the most annoying to hit already, they don't need a gigantic boost to either blink or shadowstep and there are only a few things we could do about either. One would be decreasing the energy cost, which I feel isn't a great idea as it's fine where it is. Another idea would be to increase the speed of how fast either ability causes you to travel, which would be the second best idea I suppose. And by "how fast" I mean that you could still travel the same distance but you would, in fact, be harder to trace after celerity upgrades.
D) Onos: Buff the sprint speed only, or like the fade make the standard run speed a slight bit faster.
That's all I've got for you folks. I'm not trying to sit here and say "NERF MARINES BUFF ALIENS!!!!" these are just the suggestions I have off the top of my head at this moment. I'm sure we can continue this discussion pretty decently. Also, if I've hit some subjects that have been brought up before than it's very obvious that, no, I did not use search before posting.
P.S. ADHD don't take my opening sentiments personally, I've seen this come up a few times and while I do respect and understand the hours you've put in and where you've come from and arguments you've posted in the past; I just get frustrated when time spent playing comes up as an argument.
P.P.S I'm slightly inebriated.
<ol type='1'><li>For turret spam you've suggested a cap. The rest is just implementation detail & backstory.</li><li>On ARCs & power, to implement your suggestion properly map designers should take those mechanics in to consideration. I'd shy away from those kind of arrangements because it's a bit like the tail wagging the dog.</li><li>It's not clear to me what you think the problem is with celerity to which your suggestion is addressing. I think celerity is fulfilling its design purpose, the ability for lifeforms to relocate and attack from a different flank. It's popular enough to compete with carapace for demand. I think there's more urgent stuff required elsewhere...</li></ol>
No, this is not how accurate aiming works. The only reason a wide spread can be helpful IRL is because even just one pellet or bullet hitting the target usually means incapacitation or death. In games, however, you need many pellets or bullets to hit in order to get a kill. In that scenario, less spread is always (provided you are not completely inept at aiming) beneficial, regardless of range.This is plainly obvious when using the shotgun, or conversely the pistol, so I don't understand how it's even possible to come to the conclusion you have.
<!--quoteo(post=1946840:date=Jun 27 2012, 01:24 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jun 27 2012, 01:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wont recant my opinion that parasite is stupid that it allows a marine to die in 2 bites.
Parasite should only be for tracking marines and structures... not to do damage enough to kill a marine after he's been hit twice. That is complete trash.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you are describing is one of the most beautiful mechanics from NS1. It's a shame you don't understand it and are willing to dismiss it just because you have problems playing marine at the moment.
1. It adds a skill element that can be learnt and improved on through practice -- either by parasiting while you're closing the distance towards the marine or by parasiting if you lose contact with the marine during an engagement.
2. It adds another incentive to use parasite (the original reason why it was implemented in version 3.0 of NS1).
It's a shame parasites can be healed by medpacks though, as it is a massive disincentive to using parasites for anything other than pure combat.
3. It helps balance weapon upgrades vs. armor upgrades. Before A0 = 2bites + parasite / A1 = 3 bites was implemented in NS1, good marine commanders never, ever, upgraded W1 first. Everything was pre-decided because that upgrade from A0 = 2 bites to A1 = 3 bites was so much more powerful than the W1 upgrade. After the change, the upgrades were more balanced, which allowed for new build orders.
The trade-off is that you can't use an exo while using a jetpack -- a choice between armor and mobility.
I agree with the other poster who suggested making weapon "weight" affect jetpack flight speed and recharge rate -- this is how it was handled in NS1. The difference betweem the machine gun and shotgun shouldn't be large though -- the shotgun really is a jetpacker's weapon. Aiming accurately with a machine gun while flying a jetpack is one of the hardest skills to master.
I just disagree that parasite is made less useful by medpacks. I like tying up the enemy commander's time & attention. Though to be fair that's mostly becasue of the horrible comm UI.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->Max flying speed assuming no weapons are dropped:
LMG (LMG out): 8.8
LMG (axe out): 9.15
Shotgun (shotgun): 8.71
Shotgun (axe): 9.09
GL (GL): 8.17
GL (axe): 8.71
Flamer (flamer): 7.72
Flamer (axe): 8.39
All weapons dropped: 10.54<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->Max flying speed assuming no weapons are dropped:
LMG (LMG out): 8.8
LMG (axe out): 9.15
Shotgun (shotgun): 8.71
Shotgun (axe): 9.09
GL (GL): 8.17
GL (axe): 8.71
Flamer (flamer): 7.72
Flamer (axe): 8.39
All weapons dropped: 10.54<!--c2--></div><!--ec2--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interesting, I still think they should tweak it a little more because it sure doesn't feel any different to me.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->Max flying speed assuming no weapons are dropped:
LMG (LMG out): 8.8
LMG (axe out): 9.15
Shotgun (shotgun): 8.71
Shotgun (axe): 9.09
GL (GL): 8.17
GL (axe): 8.71
Flamer (flamer): 7.72
Flamer (axe): 8.39
All weapons dropped: 10.54<!--c2--></div><!--ec2--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And what about fuel? Do they all need the same amount?
I don't know how to evaluate that except for poking through code. The jetpack LUA is a bit confusing. There is a lot of stuff in there.
It didn't look like fuel costs increase or decrease by weight. But by my previous post, the distance traveled, speed, and acceleration is lowered by weight. That means that while fuel cost per time doesn't seem to be increased, fuel cost per distance traveled, speed, and acceleration is increased by weight because weight lowers the effectiveness of the jetpack.
I think.
The range of the ARC at the moment just means bigger and bigger maps, longer and longer corridors of alien defensive structure spam, and therefore more boring escort the train of death games.
One thing I hate is all the running in the early game, especially to maintain resource towers. Now the early game is faster and shorter, your team being on the wrong side of a large map could be the difference between winning and losing a game.
The ARC has TOO MUCH influence on map design. Who wants to spend most of the game doing a marathon to where the action is?
Personally, my feelings about the jp is if we're keeping this ludicrously cheap cost it should have reduced armor and a greater recharge/fuel use per weapon in exchange for being able to completely avoid most of the lifeforms for a good part of an encounter. Though it wouldn't be most of the lifeforms if leap wasn't so short a leap at the moment, assuming we're really removing the delays on blink. Increasing the cost to something more reasonable though? Yeah I could see just having the weapons effect it being more than fair. Less effective hovering heavy weapons platforms platforms sounds good considering right now just for 10Pres you're negating most of the GL and FF's disadvantage for the moment.
Edit: Oh yes it's a secondary concern to JPs for me right now but ARCs... god are they terrible. Though I'm not sure how I feel about powering the rooms first but I guess it would achieve some of the delay and effort needed of setting up a TF and siege base. Anything's better than how they function right now. I'm simply annoyed with the negative effect they currently have on gameplay, they are not fun nor fairly balanced as of right now. I'm still more behind just seeing the siege turrets and factories make a return at this point. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->