If the immediate advantage of killing an Arms Lab at a strategically appropriate moment is really not big enough - and I'm not convinced that that's the case - then the furthest I'd be willing to take it is an idea that has occurred to me before, but for which I have yet to see any need: once the providing structure is rebuilt, the upgrades automatically reactivate for free after a short delay. For the Arms Lab in particular, both types of upgrade would reactivate simultaneously, at the rate of, say, ten seconds per level; still not very long, but quite possibly long <i>enough</i> to influence a distant battle.
As for the idea that upgrades no longer supported should persist until player death, what about the reverse? Will a player that spawns without the upgrades be ineligible for them for that life? That sounds bad because it is, but the mechanic would be logically inconsistent otherwise.
Destroying the arms lab is actually way more powerful already than most players realize. If done in the correct situation, it basically allows one fade to spawncamp endlessly as long as there is less than 4 ips, you can basically instakill a marine with a0 as he spawns. From there the rest of the aliens can move in to end the game. For marines a temporary lack of upgrades can cause huge map control losses, there is no need to penalize them further by making them re-research the upgrades.
<!--quoteo(post=1951968:date=Jul 16 2012, 11:19 AM:name=Uzguz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Uzguz @ Jul 16 2012, 11:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951968"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for the idea that upgrades no longer supported should persist until player death, what about the reverse? Will a player that spawns without the upgrades be ineligible for them for that life? That sounds bad because it is, but the mechanic would be logically inconsistent otherwise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's not a valid logical jump. You would continue to receive upgrades while alive as they are researched just like it is now.
Anyway, I don't like this idea for one simple reason: Back when fades were tied to hives, it was <i>common</i> for aliens to get the second hive up, 1-2 fades pop out, and then instantly lose the hive. This in no way indicated a loss for the aliens. The presence of the fades often allowed the aliens to push back and get the second hive up again, and go on to win games. I'm not saying everything is 100% balanced at the moment, but that major tech denial can work, and it is possible to come back from.
on the alien side, i think keeping augment abilities until the player dies is ok once a second hive is down. In most games that ive seen, ailen do rush to defend their second hive, but many die in the process. any players that are dead at this point (usually at least 1/2 the team) wont have augment abilities, leave a half powered team to try for a come back.
Keeping upgrades after the chamber is down (or the arms lab as well) is a bad idea imo since upgrades area passively used. Abilities are actively used (much like a marine weapon or jp) and should persist until death once researched and lost.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1951809:date=Jul 15 2012, 04:43 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Jul 15 2012, 04:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951809"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If upgrades persisted after the structures demise then what is the point to defending it? Marines could just recycle an A3/W3 arms lab since it isnt needed to have upgrades online.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Upgrades would only persist as long as your alive (i.e. if you die and there is no 2nd hive/arms lab, you don't get the 2nd hive/arms lab upgrades with the new life).
There is still a penalty for losing the upgrade structure, but its only immediate for people who die/are dead. I think this method provides a good balance between deriving a benefit from killing a specific structure without being extremely disruptive for those still alive (try dueling a marine as a skulk right as your 2nd hive dies, very frustrating).
<!--quoteo(post=1952001:date=Jul 16 2012, 06:08 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jul 16 2012, 06:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952001"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Upgrades would only persist as long as your alive (i.e. if you die and there is no 2nd hive/arms lab, you don't get the 2nd hive/arms lab upgrades with the new life).
There is still a penalty for losing the upgrade structure, but its only immediate for people who die/are dead. I think this method provides a good balance between deriving a benefit from killing a specific structure without being extremely disruptive for those still alive (try dueling a marine as a skulk right as your 2nd hive dies, very frustrating).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is an interesting idea, but i still find it to be not to my liking. It is akin, for me, to having to hunt down each person after the last cc/hive is destroyed. It is annoying and prolongs games.
In the case of upgrades think of a base trade. There would be no reason to destroy anything but the CC/Hive if everything alive atm kept all upgrades. There would also be the problem of cloak. If one was careful you could keep cloak the entire game even when multiple hives were destroyed or the situation of fades. They rarely die when a good player is using them and then you have to deal with him full power the entire game till it ends. There is also power nodes. When you take that down would marines keep all upgrades from the effected structures? It would lose the strategic value of knocking out the power by 1/3. Power node destruction is 3 fold - Stop spawning, restrict player purchases/regain life, and kill upgrades (disable beacon can be thrown in there but since it doesnt revive the dead it isnt as strong or useful).
Plus how do you balance Hyper-Mutation? Do you lose all upgrades when you switch from say an onos to a fade? Kinda unfair since you didnt die, but over powered if it was this way.
This would only prolong the end game and force strats to focus on the CC/Hive in an even game for quick, cheap wins... imo =)
<!--quoteo(post=1951938:date=Jul 16 2012, 09:28 AM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Jul 16 2012, 09:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951938"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just a crazy thought: what if instead if having to build a second comm chair in order to enable building a protolab (which can then be dropped anywhere), the protolab itself had to be built on a tech point?
That way the marines actually have to defend two locations instead of one, like aliens. And aliens could take out the protolab strategically, instead of it being buried in marine start (where if you can kill the proto you could kill anything else and win the game).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This doesn't have much to do with losing/keeping upgrades when arms labs are destroyed, but it's still a cool idea.
I think it's kind of unfair that marines can keep using bought jetpacks but fades and skulks who stay alive lose their leap and blink. This makes losing the second hive particularly painful, and in most cases GG. It would be better if loss of abilities only happened to lifeforms that spawned AFTER the second hive died.
In regards to lifeform upgrades and marine upgrades with arms lab however, I think that is fine, and a good game mechanic. (I.e you can try to focus shells when raiding an alien hive, or hit the marine arms lab to temporary take down their upgrades.) Though it begs the question why aliens have to repurchase carapace/regen/etc when marines just get them all back once the arms lab is purchased again. (Which imo makes a lot more sense and follows the pattern of most RTS with similar mechanics)
<i>In my humble opinion</i> - Here's the balanced solution (asymmetry be damned in this case):
Kharaa ===== - Researched abilities (leap, etc) are lost with the death of the relevant number of hives - only for players who spawn <i>after</i> the hive has died. These abilities return automatically with the completion of the required number of hives. - Researched upgrades (carapace, etc) are lost with the death of the shell / veil / spur - for players who spawn <i>after</i> the shell / veil / spur has died. The upgrade is not automatically returned with the completion of a new shell / veil / spur and must be researched again (otherwise, if you lost both the carapace and regeneration shells, how would the game decide which to give you back?). However, if a player is currently using a lost upgrade (ie., the player evolved carapace, the carapace shell is destroyed) then the upgrade is either free to research or heavily discounted. Still takes the same time to research.
Marines ===== - (current behaviour) Researched jet packs are not lost with the destruction or vortexing of a proto lab or 2nd command chair. Newly spawned marines cannot purchase them if the 2nd command chair is destroyed. - The destruction or vortexing of the arms lab does not strip active marines of their upgraded weapons and armor - however newly-spawned marines have level 0 weapons and armor.
More fun, as a player isn't spontaneously stripped of an ability (marines losing higher level weapons and armor, aliens losing evolutions and abilities).
With that out of the way - some points for discussion -
Possible marine changes =============== - Require one arms lab for each weapons upgrade. Change the cost of an arms lab to 10, and reduce the cost of each upgrade by 10 (so level 1 = 10 resources, level 2 = 20 resources, and level 3 = 30 resources). Effectively the net costs are the same, the only difference is that the marines have to build each lab. But this would mean that the loss of a single arms lab doesn't wipe out the marines completely, as you could distribute them across the map. - Require a marine to "buy" a weapons or armor upgrade from an arms lab, akin to how they buy weapons from an armory and jet packs/ exos from a proto lab. The dynamic would be the same, and if the costs and economy were tweaked it could work (ie., 1 pres for level 1, 2 for level 2, etc). It would give players a reason to choose one level of armor over another (especially if heavier armor influenced speed or stronger weapons influenced recoil).
<!--quoteo(post=1952251:date=Jul 17 2012, 09:37 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Jul 17 2012, 09:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952251"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>In my humble opinion</i> - Here's the balanced solution (asymmetry be damned in this case):
Kharaa ===== - Researched abilities (leap, etc) are lost with the death of the relevant number of hives - only for players who spawn <i>after</i> the hive has died. These abilities return automatically with the completion of the required number of hives. - Researched upgrades (carapace, etc) are lost with the death of the shell / veil / spur - for players who spawn <i>after</i> the shell / veil / spur has died. The upgrade is not automatically returned with the completion of a new shell / veil / spur and must be researched again (otherwise, if you lost both the carapace and regeneration shells, how would the game decide which to give you back?). However, if a player is currently using a lost upgrade (ie., the player evolved carapace, the carapace shell is destroyed) then the upgrade is either free to research or heavily discounted. Still takes the same time to research.
Marines ===== - (current behaviour) Researched jet packs are not lost with the destruction or vortexing of a proto lab or 2nd command chair. Newly spawned marines cannot purchase them if the 2nd command chair is destroyed. - The destruction or vortexing of the arms lab does not strip active marines of their upgraded weapons and armor - however newly-spawned marines have level 0 weapons and armor.
More fun, as a player isn't spontaneously stripped of an ability (marines losing higher level weapons and armor, aliens losing evolutions and abilities).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As posted by someone else, I don't think these changes just "prolong" the game, but support the idea of a comeback, and preventing wins by simply rushing one building for a win.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
To me, this is all simply an issue with communication.
In an RTS its made very clear, not just from the ability to visibly see your structure(s) destroyed, but also because you are always looking, paying attention to and interacting with the big picture. The Macro, if you will. While all those on the ground are paying attention to the micro - the individual interactions between players and within rooms etc.
Such communications are already done with banners that say "New evolutions available"... yet we don't have anything that says "Carapace lost".. just "Hive killed" etc.
It isn't frustrating if you <b>know why</b> you cant leap all of a sudden. You saw and heard that your hive was taking damage, then died, then finally that you lost said upgrades. Compare it to the lack of frustration that occurs when a commander can no longer place his RT, because he can visibly see that he doesn't have enough resources.
Communication is lacking in quite a few areas still
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1952269:date=Jul 17 2012, 08:47 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 17 2012, 08:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952269"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To me, this is all simply an issue with communication.
In an RTS its made very clear, not just from the ability to visibly see your structure(s) destroyed, but also because you are always looking, paying attention to and interacting with the big picture. The Macro, if you will. While all those on the ground are paying attention to the micro - the individual interactions between players and within rooms etc.
Such communications are already done with banners that say "New evolutions available"... yet we don't have anything that says "Carapace lost".. just "Hive killed" etc.
It isn't frustrating if you <b>know why</b> you cant leap all of a sudden. You saw and heard that your hive was taking damage, then died, then finally that you lost said upgrades. Compare it to the lack of frustration that occurs when a commander can no longer place his RT, because he can visibly see that he doesn't have enough resources.
Communication is lacking in quite a few areas still<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Losing an existing ability is far, far, more than just an issue with communication. It is not fun, for all players on one team to lose their interesting abilities (such as Leap and Blink) in the midst of combat, full stop.
A lot of oldschool alien players may be used to this legacy game mechanism from NS. But imagine how a marine player would feel, when his/her Jetpack, or Exosuit, or Flamethrower stops working as soon as a tech structure on the other side of the map is destroyed? For both teams, losing a certain tech (eg Jetpack, armor upgrades, Blink) would cause catastrophic effects on combat, especially for aliens, whose deaths can be very punishing.
Aliens are currently being punished too severely for losing a Hive. They lose a hive tech, territory, possibly a large number of structures in the area, and more importantly, abilities. Losing one tech point should not instantly mean the beginning of a irrecoverable downward spiral for either team.
<b>A better approach would be to enable additional Commander abilities too boost combat effectiveness, based on the number of tech points held. For example, infestation Spike Wall, Drifter Frenzy cloud, the advanced abilities on Crags/Shade/Shift would require more than one Hive to activate. Players on both teams should not lose any purchased abilities and upgrades until death.</b>
If players feel they are able to contribute to a fight, they will fight to the bitter end, for an climactic finale.
On the other hand, if they are almost incapable of fighting back (such as JP/Exo vs grounded Skulks and Fades), they will most likely leave the game instead.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Losing an existing ability is far, far, more than just an issue with communication. It is not fun, for all players on one team to lose their interesting abilities (such as Leap and Blink) in the midst of combat, full stop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This
Not to mention that a well coordinated attack can take out a hive before aliens even have time to respond, especially if marines rushed JPs. And with just 1 hive, it's impossible for aliens to deal with JPs. Only losing leap/blink/etc after death would at least mitigate that to some extent, and allow aliens to come back easier.
Again though, I personally don't mind losing armour/weapons and carapace/regen/etc upgrades immediately if those structures are lost. I think this is A LOT less problematic than outright losing abilities which are crucial to staying in the game.
Short story: Played on Mineshaft yesterday. We had Ore main hive, expanded to cave and tried to defend crushing, which marines pushed hard with jp gl. GLs are a problem imo as well, they're to spam friendly and do too much dmg... So we did really well at crushing, and kept them at the entrance (we even harassed their rts at double). Then, while i was on my way to crushing again, khamm says everyone should go to ore, they built a pg in there. I immediatly turned around (was halfway to crushing) and before i was back at the hive, it was down. It took them like 5 secs max, to kill our main hive from full hp, with GLs only. So, main was gone, but we still had cave... however defending cave without leap (fades without blink suck in this situation as well) against marines with JP is a joke. They didn't pwn us, they got in, fired at the hive, landed and died, or got away and fired again. There's simply no chance to come back against JP marines when you lose the second hive atm.
(sorry for not reading through all previous posts first)
i've seen several people being frustrated (and ragequitting) when they lost one of their two hives. being able to come back was actually a very nice element of ns2 and i think it should remain quite possible.
my personal suggestion on this: kharaa: -keep tier 2 & 3 abilities permanently -when losing upgrade structures, don't remove the already active upgrades from the players, but make it impossible to chose them in the evolution menu (so you lose them, but not instantly)
marines: -no downgrades until you die, but upgrades should apply right away (otherwise people might just suicide) -keep arms lab the way it is, maybe increasing cost/build time (or when rebuilt, slowly re-enable the upgrades one by one instead of instantly; but do this automatically so the commander does not have to bother with it)
<!--quoteo(post=1952269:date=Jul 18 2012, 04:47 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 18 2012, 04:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952269"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It isn't frustrating if you <b>know why</b> you cant leap all of a sudden. You saw and heard that your hive was taking damage, then died, then finally that you lost said upgrades. Compare it to the lack of frustration that occurs when a commander can no longer place his RT, because he can visibly see that he doesn't have enough resources.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
We do not need to dumb the game down further. Each structure destroyed should be felt through out the team instantly. Every structure should be fought to defend and i think the game should return to it's NS 1 roots on the importance on Hive two. Marine's job was to prevent it and aliens to ensure it. This was helped with only have 3 hive locations. It was clear where the battles should take place and where to look. Hive 3 generally meant game over for marines. Preventing Hive 2 was game over for aliens.
Back on topic, as Iron says as long as your comm is letting people know what is going on and people are scouting/ working as a team it doesnt come as a big shock when abilities are lost. peroid.
JP rushes happened in NS1 but maps were A LOT bigger and had known choke points that allowed aliens to keep tabs on marines when pressed and vice versa. Someone mentioned about that jps destroy hive 1 aliens... well ya... that is marine tier 3 and it SHOULD destroy you. Granted JPs can be rushed quite quickly and i think this needs tweaking but once hit reg is a little better and fade mechanics are improved we will see lerks and fades taking down those JPs as they are supposed too.
This all comes down to TEAMWORK and COMMUNICATION. I am sorry if you are ramboing somewhere not important to the team and you lose your ability abruptly. If you were in the fight (or properly scouting) it wouldnt come as a surprise.
This change would reward selfish gaming where the individual doesnt need the team past a couple built structures and only needs them when they die.
<!--quoteo(post=1952347:date=Jul 18 2012, 04:23 PM:name=MiniH0wie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MiniH0wie @ Jul 18 2012, 04:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952347"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then do you support the idea that Marines should lose their abilities instantly if one of their structures (Proto, AA, AL) gets destroyed?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you lose your gun when the gun store burns down?
Arms Lab - yes (though abilities are returned once it is rebuilt.) AA - No Proto - No (but i see this changing when they add all the proto menus to upgrade Jps and Exos. So they will lose something instantly upgrade wise just like the Arms Lab.)
AA gets enough of a lose by having to research another AA and building a proto requires the AA plus being very expensive.
Short story: Played on Mineshaft yesterday. We had Ore main hive, expanded to cave and tried to defend crushing, which marines pushed hard with jp gl. GLs are a problem imo as well, they're to spam friendly and do too much dmg... So we did really well at crushing, and kept them at the entrance (we even harassed their rts at double). Then, while i was on my way to crushing again, khamm says everyone should go to ore, they built a pg in there. I immediatly turned around (was halfway to crushing) and before i was back at the hive, it was down. It took them like 5 secs max, to kill our main hive from full hp, with GLs only. So, main was gone, but we still had cave... however defending cave without leap (fades without blink suck in this situation as well) against marines with JP is a joke. They didn't pwn us, they got in, fired at the hive, landed and died, or got away and fired again. There's simply no chance to come back against JP marines when you lose the second hive atm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Mineshaft isn't really a great example because it's inherently a linear map, where you each start at one end and push back and forth in the middle. Compared to.... whatever map has crossroads, where if you lose a hive, you have 2 other hive locations to expand to (or 3 if you can retake the hive that just dropped). If marines only have 1 room under control and you lose your second hive, you can definitely come back and push the opposite direction, or try to stealth up a hive in crossroads or something. If the marines have every room under control and there's no where to push, well, you should lose at that point anyway after losing your second hive.
Upgrades (like advanced armory) are lost when the armory is destroyed (like usual). However, if an armory is rebuilt in that general area again, it will automatically begin upgrading to an advanced armory, at no cost to the team.
That way, the team has the "penalty" of having to wait for the research to complete again, but it doesn't cost them any resources.
Hmm...
Then again, as I type all of that, and think about it... it feels overly complicated to do it that way. I don't mind losing upgrades with structures in NS2. I'm happy the way it is right now. Protect the Shells! Protect the Arms Lab!
<!--quoteo(post=1952345:date=Jul 18 2012, 06:14 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Jul 18 2012, 06:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952345"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... i think the game should return to it's NS 1 roots on the importance on Hive two. Marine's job was to prevent it and aliens to ensure it. This was helped with only have 3 hive locations. It was clear where the battles should take place and where to look. Hive 3 generally meant game over for marines. Preventing Hive 2 was game over for aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh hell no. That was the most boring part of NS1. Because the games dragged on after that. You know you had already lost, but it dragged on and on until the last hive was down or the marine-turtle broke. This is not a good game mechanic and I hope it doesn't come back. As it is right now, it is much better. The second hive is very important, but you are not bound to one single location. And it isn't a sure loss when you lose it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you lose your gun when the gun store burns down?
Arms Lab - yes (though abilities are returned once it is rebuilt.) AA - No Proto - No (but i see this changing when they add all the proto menus to upgrade Jps and Exos. So they will lose something instantly upgrade wise just like the Arms Lab.)
AA gets enough of a lose by having to research another AA and building a proto requires the AA plus being very expensive<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So aliens need to get shafted upon losing a second hive, by having all their active lifeforms lose their second hive abilities, essentially making them unable to 'continue the fight' against jetpackers but somehow marines should still maintain active jetpacks even though the protolab is destroyed? (Which leaves them able to 'continue the fight' with the lifeforms they would, without jetpacks, have trouble coutnering?)
Sorry but I honestly don't understand how anyone could defend such obvious imbalance. Losing your second hive is bad enough, it shouldn't be this instant GG for aliens. Ninja hive takedowns can happen, certainly when JPs are in the field, it isn't always possible to defend a hive in time. Nor should the effects of that second hive loss (or protolab) be that IMMEDIATE on gameplay. (Else there is absolutely no room for a comeback, doesn't exactly make for dynamic gameplay)
<!--quoteo(post=1952485:date=Jul 19 2012, 09:30 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 19 2012, 09:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952485"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh hell no. That was the most boring part of NS1. Because the games dragged on after that. You know you had already lost, but it dragged on and on until the last hive was down or the marine-turtle broke. This is not a good game mechanic and I hope it doesn't come back. As it is right now, it is much better. The second hive is very important, but you are not bound to one single location. And it isn't a sure loss when you lose it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Boring? Whaa? How is having a clear objective and clear goal bad? The game was intense and fun fighting for that second hive location. When there were equal teams the fight over hive locations were awesome (whether it be NS1 or NS2 an imbalance in teams will always result in a bad game). Marines would generally setup in one hive spot while the aliens tried to get the best choice out of the two. It was hard to cover both places for marines and gave the edge to the aliens getting that second hive. Once hive two was out there was still great game play. It was about balancing the importance of defending a hive, gaining hive 3 (which was usually a win), and bottling the marines up in MS.
In NS2 what is the objective? Hive denial doesnt seem to be one of them since there are so many locations and defending them all isnt realistic, so everyone hunts RTs and just sits around waiting for higher tech. How is this fun? When a hive goes down, as a comm, i say, "Well i'll just place another at a random location that is overlooked by the marine team." and i usually have a lot of options.
So before you go off on "this isnt a good game play mechanic" neither is what is implemented now if i agreed with your first assessment, which i dont. If you had games that dragged out then there was an inept team winning. People do this is NS2 also, they lack the will/knowledge to make that final killing blow. So blaming the game for poor player performance is ridiculous.
Where we differ is i want clear battle lines and decisive battles, you want random battle line and a lot of battles that can be recovered from. To each his own.
<!--quoteo(post=1952506:date=Jul 19 2012, 12:31 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jul 19 2012, 12:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952506"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So aliens need to get shafted upon losing a second hive, by having all their active lifeforms lose their second hive abilities, essentially making them unable to 'continue the fight' against jetpackers but somehow marines should still maintain active jetpacks even though the protolab is destroyed? (Which leaves them able to 'continue the fight' with the lifeforms they would, without jetpacks, have trouble coutnering?)
Sorry but I honestly don't understand how anyone could defend such obvious imbalance. Losing your second hive is bad enough, it shouldn't be this instant GG for aliens. Ninja hive takedowns can happen, certainly when JPs are in the field, it isn't always possible to defend a hive in time. Nor should the effects of that second hive loss (or protolab) be that IMMEDIATE on gameplay. (Else there is absolutely no room for a comeback, doesn't exactly make for dynamic gameplay)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look, aliens lose their abilities NOT the lifeform, just as marines lose the eventual JP upgrades not the jet pack. It is fair and as i said before a means to an end. How do you expect either team to topple the other if they are at full strength all the time no matter what structure you kill? Honestly i don't know why you would want this mechanic as it promotes more stalemates.
The problem is its second hive abilities, not the life form itself, that allow aliens to mount any semblance of a defense against jps.
What you're saying is the equivalent of "yeah, the jet pack immediately shuts off if the protolab shuts down, but you're still wearing it on your back and your shotgun still works so its fine."
Its not about promoting stalemates, its about giving the aliens a reason to continue playing the game when they lose their second hive to jps, instead of just rring.
<!--quoteo(post=1952531:date=Jul 19 2012, 10:15 AM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Jul 19 2012, 10:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952531"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is its second hive abilities, not the life form itself, that allow aliens to mount any semblance of a defense against jps.
What you're saying is the equivalent of "yeah, the jet pack immediately shuts off if the protolab shuts down, but you're still wearing it on your back and your shotgun still works so its fine."
Its not about promoting stalemates, its about giving the aliens a reason to continue playing the game when they lose their second hive to jps, instead of just rring.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Perhaps there should be a new objective then! I really want there to be a timed defense after one team reaches a point of critically losing, but no one ever seems to respond every time I bring it up (75% of RTs and all but 1 hive location allows commander to trigger evacuation, defend for 5-10 minutes for moral victory). The fact is, in competitive multiplayer games, there will always be points at which a loss is inevitable and it's just getting dragged out pointlessly. So instead of trying to minimize that, why not eliminate it completely by altering the end-game conditions.
Anyway, a good thing about gameplay based around the second hive is it forces action. Aliens must push out and take control of a hive room as early as possible if they want to win, rather than just being able to turtle with 1-2 RTs. Marines MUST continually scan and immediately respond with a strong counter-push as soon as the hive goes up. If taking out a second hive isn't a gamechanging event, then what's the rush to take it out? Let's hold what we have until weapons 3 and arcs. That's boring.
<!--quoteo(post=1952525:date=Jul 19 2012, 03:45 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Jul 19 2012, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952525"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Where we differ is i want clear battle lines and decisive battles, you want random battle line and a lot of battles that can be recovered from. To each his own.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree to this. I prefer a huge amount of random battle lines (=RT positions + hive positions) over a fixed amount of 2 or 3 battle fields. Simply because its better in the long-term. You don't fight at the always same locations. But this may be personal preference too. I can't even understand how the CS-people can play de_dust over and over again or even this game... but thats another story.
So yes, I like variance in play and battle lines. And you are also right, that you can tell in some games in NS2 who's going to win and this is bad and not fun. But I'm all against focusing on this mechanic and increasing it occurrence by making the 2nd hive even more of a game decider. This way you can end the game right after all tech points are captured and let the one win who has more. But at least you will see many games where half of the people go to ready room after this event. I don't consider this fun.
We were playing a gather yesterday on eclipse and marines won both rounds by denying the second hive.
Thinking about why eclipse seemed so imba in NS2 but was fine in NS1 it occurred to me that in NS1 you can teleport to any attacked hive using another hive. This is a <b>huge</b> difference and make holding a second hive very difficult on eclipse (which is a four tech points map).
So either:
- Bring back hive teleportation or something similar (gorge canal). - The layout of maps like eclipse needs to be changed to make it easier to hold a second hive. - Make the second hive less important.
Yuuki I love the idea of the gorge being able to build tunnels/canals/wormholes whatever, it could be a tier2 hive ability researched by the commander for 15 res or something.
it's a usefull defensive alternative to celerity and adds to the gorge's usefullness I think
Comments
As for the idea that upgrades no longer supported should persist until player death, what about the reverse? Will a player that spawns without the upgrades be ineligible for them for that life? That sounds bad because it is, but the mechanic would be logically inconsistent otherwise.
That's not a valid logical jump. You would continue to receive upgrades while alive as they are researched just like it is now.
Anyway, I don't like this idea for one simple reason: Back when fades were tied to hives, it was <i>common</i> for aliens to get the second hive up, 1-2 fades pop out, and then instantly lose the hive. This in no way indicated a loss for the aliens. The presence of the fades often allowed the aliens to push back and get the second hive up again, and go on to win games. I'm not saying everything is 100% balanced at the moment, but that major tech denial can work, and it is possible to come back from.
Keeping upgrades after the chamber is down (or the arms lab as well) is a bad idea imo since upgrades area passively used. Abilities are actively used (much like a marine weapon or jp) and should persist until death once researched and lost.
Upgrades would only persist as long as your alive (i.e. if you die and there is no 2nd hive/arms lab, you don't get the 2nd hive/arms lab upgrades with the new life).
There is still a penalty for losing the upgrade structure, but its only immediate for people who die/are dead. I think this method provides a good balance between deriving a benefit from killing a specific structure without being extremely disruptive for those still alive (try dueling a marine as a skulk right as your 2nd hive dies, very frustrating).
There is still a penalty for losing the upgrade structure, but its only immediate for people who die/are dead. I think this method provides a good balance between deriving a benefit from killing a specific structure without being extremely disruptive for those still alive (try dueling a marine as a skulk right as your 2nd hive dies, very frustrating).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is an interesting idea, but i still find it to be not to my liking. It is akin, for me, to having to hunt down each person after the last cc/hive is destroyed. It is annoying and prolongs games.
In the case of upgrades think of a base trade. There would be no reason to destroy anything but the CC/Hive if everything alive atm kept all upgrades. There would also be the problem of cloak. If one was careful you could keep cloak the entire game even when multiple hives were destroyed or the situation of fades. They rarely die when a good player is using them and then you have to deal with him full power the entire game till it ends. There is also power nodes. When you take that down would marines keep all upgrades from the effected structures? It would lose the strategic value of knocking out the power by 1/3. Power node destruction is 3 fold - Stop spawning, restrict player purchases/regain life, and kill upgrades (disable beacon can be thrown in there but since it doesnt revive the dead it isnt as strong or useful).
Plus how do you balance Hyper-Mutation? Do you lose all upgrades when you switch from say an onos to a fade? Kinda unfair since you didnt die, but over powered if it was this way.
This would only prolong the end game and force strats to focus on the CC/Hive in an even game for quick, cheap wins... imo =)
That way the marines actually have to defend two locations instead of one, like aliens. And aliens could take out the protolab strategically, instead of it being buried in marine start (where if you can kill the proto you could kill anything else and win the game).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This doesn't have much to do with losing/keeping upgrades when arms labs are destroyed, but it's still a cool idea.
In regards to lifeform upgrades and marine upgrades with arms lab however, I think that is fine, and a good game mechanic. (I.e you can try to focus shells when raiding an alien hive, or hit the marine arms lab to temporary take down their upgrades.) Though it begs the question why aliens have to repurchase carapace/regen/etc when marines just get them all back once the arms lab is purchased again. (Which imo makes a lot more sense and follows the pattern of most RTS with similar mechanics)
Kharaa
=====
- Researched abilities (leap, etc) are lost with the death of the relevant number of hives - only for players who spawn <i>after</i> the hive has died. These abilities return automatically with the completion of the required number of hives.
- Researched upgrades (carapace, etc) are lost with the death of the shell / veil / spur - for players who spawn <i>after</i> the shell / veil / spur has died. The upgrade is not automatically returned with the completion of a new shell / veil / spur and must be researched again (otherwise, if you lost both the carapace and regeneration shells, how would the game decide which to give you back?). However, if a player is currently using a lost upgrade (ie., the player evolved carapace, the carapace shell is destroyed) then the upgrade is either free to research or heavily discounted. Still takes the same time to research.
Marines
=====
- (current behaviour) Researched jet packs are not lost with the destruction or vortexing of a proto lab or 2nd command chair. Newly spawned marines cannot purchase them if the 2nd command chair is destroyed.
- The destruction or vortexing of the arms lab does not strip active marines of their upgraded weapons and armor - however newly-spawned marines have level 0 weapons and armor.
More fun, as a player isn't spontaneously stripped of an ability (marines losing higher level weapons and armor, aliens losing evolutions and abilities).
With that out of the way - some points for discussion -
Possible marine changes
===============
- Require one arms lab for each weapons upgrade. Change the cost of an arms lab to 10, and reduce the cost of each upgrade by 10 (so level 1 = 10 resources, level 2 = 20 resources, and level 3 = 30 resources). Effectively the net costs are the same, the only difference is that the marines have to build each lab. But this would mean that the loss of a single arms lab doesn't wipe out the marines completely, as you could distribute them across the map.
- Require a marine to "buy" a weapons or armor upgrade from an arms lab, akin to how they buy weapons from an armory and jet packs/ exos from a proto lab. The dynamic would be the same, and if the costs and economy were tweaked it could work (ie., 1 pres for level 1, 2 for level 2, etc). It would give players a reason to choose one level of armor over another (especially if heavier armor influenced speed or stronger weapons influenced recoil).
Kharaa
=====
- Researched abilities (leap, etc) are lost with the death of the relevant number of hives - only for players who spawn <i>after</i> the hive has died. These abilities return automatically with the completion of the required number of hives.
- Researched upgrades (carapace, etc) are lost with the death of the shell / veil / spur - for players who spawn <i>after</i> the shell / veil / spur has died. The upgrade is not automatically returned with the completion of a new shell / veil / spur and must be researched again (otherwise, if you lost both the carapace and regeneration shells, how would the game decide which to give you back?). However, if a player is currently using a lost upgrade (ie., the player evolved carapace, the carapace shell is destroyed) then the upgrade is either free to research or heavily discounted. Still takes the same time to research.
Marines
=====
- (current behaviour) Researched jet packs are not lost with the destruction or vortexing of a proto lab or 2nd command chair. Newly spawned marines cannot purchase them if the 2nd command chair is destroyed.
- The destruction or vortexing of the arms lab does not strip active marines of their upgraded weapons and armor - however newly-spawned marines have level 0 weapons and armor.
More fun, as a player isn't spontaneously stripped of an ability (marines losing higher level weapons and armor, aliens losing evolutions and abilities).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As posted by someone else, I don't think these changes just "prolong" the game, but support the idea of a comeback, and preventing wins by simply rushing one building for a win.
In an RTS its made very clear, not just from the ability to visibly see your structure(s) destroyed, but also because you are always looking, paying attention to and interacting with the big picture. The Macro, if you will.
While all those on the ground are paying attention to the micro - the individual interactions between players and within rooms etc.
Such communications are already done with banners that say "New evolutions available"... yet we don't have anything that says "Carapace lost".. just "Hive killed" etc.
It isn't frustrating if you <b>know why</b> you cant leap all of a sudden. You saw and heard that your hive was taking damage, then died, then finally that you lost said upgrades. Compare it to the lack of frustration that occurs when a commander can no longer place his RT, because he can visibly see that he doesn't have enough resources.
Communication is lacking in quite a few areas still
In an RTS its made very clear, not just from the ability to visibly see your structure(s) destroyed, but also because you are always looking, paying attention to and interacting with the big picture. The Macro, if you will.
While all those on the ground are paying attention to the micro - the individual interactions between players and within rooms etc.
Such communications are already done with banners that say "New evolutions available"... yet we don't have anything that says "Carapace lost".. just "Hive killed" etc.
It isn't frustrating if you <b>know why</b> you cant leap all of a sudden. You saw and heard that your hive was taking damage, then died, then finally that you lost said upgrades. Compare it to the lack of frustration that occurs when a commander can no longer place his RT, because he can visibly see that he doesn't have enough resources.
Communication is lacking in quite a few areas still<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Losing an existing ability is far, far, more than just an issue with communication. It is not fun, for all players on one team to lose their interesting abilities (such as Leap and Blink) in the midst of combat, full stop.
A lot of oldschool alien players may be used to this legacy game mechanism from NS. But imagine how a marine player would feel, when his/her Jetpack, or Exosuit, or Flamethrower stops working as soon as a tech structure on the other side of the map is destroyed? For both teams, losing a certain tech (eg Jetpack, armor upgrades, Blink) would cause catastrophic effects on combat, especially for aliens, whose deaths can be very punishing.
Aliens are currently being punished too severely for losing a Hive. They lose a hive tech, territory, possibly a large number of structures in the area, and more importantly, abilities. Losing one tech point should not instantly mean the beginning of a irrecoverable downward spiral for either team.
<b>A better approach would be to enable additional Commander abilities too boost combat effectiveness, based on the number of tech points held.
For example, infestation Spike Wall, Drifter Frenzy cloud, the advanced abilities on Crags/Shade/Shift would require more than one Hive to activate.
Players on both teams should not lose any purchased abilities and upgrades until death.</b>
If players feel they are able to contribute to a fight, they will fight to the bitter end, for an climactic finale.
On the other hand, if they are almost incapable of fighting back (such as JP/Exo vs grounded Skulks and Fades), they will most likely leave the game instead.
Not to mention that a well coordinated attack can take out a hive before aliens even have time to respond, especially if marines rushed JPs. And with just 1 hive, it's impossible for aliens to deal with JPs. Only losing leap/blink/etc after death would at least mitigate that to some extent, and allow aliens to come back easier.
Again though, I personally don't mind losing armour/weapons and carapace/regen/etc upgrades immediately if those structures are lost. I think this is A LOT less problematic than outright losing abilities which are crucial to staying in the game.
Short story: Played on Mineshaft yesterday. We had Ore main hive, expanded to cave and tried to defend crushing, which marines pushed hard with jp gl. GLs are a problem imo as well, they're to spam friendly and do too much dmg... So we did really well at crushing, and kept them at the entrance (we even harassed their rts at double). Then, while i was on my way to crushing again, khamm says everyone should go to ore, they built a pg in there. I immediatly turned around (was halfway to crushing) and before i was back at the hive, it was down. It took them like 5 secs max, to kill our main hive from full hp, with GLs only. So, main was gone, but we still had cave... however defending cave without leap (fades without blink suck in this situation as well) against marines with JP is a joke. They didn't pwn us, they got in, fired at the hive, landed and died, or got away and fired again. There's simply no chance to come back against JP marines when you lose the second hive atm.
i've seen several people being frustrated (and ragequitting) when they lost one of their two hives. being able to come back was actually a very nice element of ns2 and i think it should remain quite possible.
my personal suggestion on this:
kharaa:
-keep tier 2 & 3 abilities permanently
-when losing upgrade structures, don't remove the already active upgrades from the players, but make it impossible to chose them in the evolution menu (so you lose them, but not instantly)
marines:
-no downgrades until you die, but upgrades should apply right away (otherwise people might just suicide)
-keep arms lab the way it is, maybe increasing cost/build time (or when rebuilt, slowly re-enable the upgrades one by one instead of instantly; but do this automatically so the commander does not have to bother with it)
This.
We do not need to dumb the game down further. Each structure destroyed should be felt through out the team instantly. Every structure should be fought to defend and i think the game should return to it's NS 1 roots on the importance on Hive two. Marine's job was to prevent it and aliens to ensure it. This was helped with only have 3 hive locations. It was clear where the battles should take place and where to look. Hive 3 generally meant game over for marines. Preventing Hive 2 was game over for aliens.
Back on topic, as Iron says as long as your comm is letting people know what is going on and people are scouting/ working as a team it doesnt come as a big shock when abilities are lost. peroid.
JP rushes happened in NS1 but maps were A LOT bigger and had known choke points that allowed aliens to keep tabs on marines when pressed and vice versa. Someone mentioned about that jps destroy hive 1 aliens... well ya... that is marine tier 3 and it SHOULD destroy you. Granted JPs can be rushed quite quickly and i think this needs tweaking but once hit reg is a little better and fade mechanics are improved we will see lerks and fades taking down those JPs as they are supposed too.
This all comes down to TEAMWORK and COMMUNICATION. I am sorry if you are ramboing somewhere not important to the team and you lose your ability abruptly. If you were in the fight (or properly scouting) it wouldnt come as a surprise.
This change would reward selfish gaming where the individual doesnt need the team past a couple built structures and only needs them when they die.
Do you lose your gun when the gun store burns down?
Arms Lab - yes (though abilities are returned once it is rebuilt.)
AA - No
Proto - No (but i see this changing when they add all the proto menus to upgrade Jps and Exos. So they will lose something instantly upgrade wise just like the Arms Lab.)
AA gets enough of a lose by having to research another AA and building a proto requires the AA plus being very expensive.
Short story: Played on Mineshaft yesterday. We had Ore main hive, expanded to cave and tried to defend crushing, which marines pushed hard with jp gl. GLs are a problem imo as well, they're to spam friendly and do too much dmg... So we did really well at crushing, and kept them at the entrance (we even harassed their rts at double). Then, while i was on my way to crushing again, khamm says everyone should go to ore, they built a pg in there. I immediatly turned around (was halfway to crushing) and before i was back at the hive, it was down. It took them like 5 secs max, to kill our main hive from full hp, with GLs only. So, main was gone, but we still had cave... however defending cave without leap (fades without blink suck in this situation as well) against marines with JP is a joke. They didn't pwn us, they got in, fired at the hive, landed and died, or got away and fired again. There's simply no chance to come back against JP marines when you lose the second hive atm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mineshaft isn't really a great example because it's inherently a linear map, where you each start at one end and push back and forth in the middle. Compared to.... whatever map has crossroads, where if you lose a hive, you have 2 other hive locations to expand to (or 3 if you can retake the hive that just dropped). If marines only have 1 room under control and you lose your second hive, you can definitely come back and push the opposite direction, or try to stealth up a hive in crossroads or something. If the marines have every room under control and there's no where to push, well, you should lose at that point anyway after losing your second hive.
Upgrades (like advanced armory) are lost when the armory is destroyed (like usual). However, if an armory is rebuilt in that general area again, it will automatically begin upgrading to an advanced armory, at no cost to the team.
That way, the team has the "penalty" of having to wait for the research to complete again, but it doesn't cost them any resources.
Hmm...
Then again, as I type all of that, and think about it... it feels overly complicated to do it that way. I don't mind losing upgrades with structures in NS2. I'm happy the way it is right now. Protect the Shells! Protect the Arms Lab!
Cheers,
Cody
Oh hell no. That was the most boring part of NS1. Because the games dragged on after that. You know you had already lost, but it dragged on and on until the last hive was down or the marine-turtle broke. This is not a good game mechanic and I hope it doesn't come back. As it is right now, it is much better. The second hive is very important, but you are not bound to one single location. And it isn't a sure loss when you lose it.
Arms Lab - yes (though abilities are returned once it is rebuilt.)
AA - No
Proto - No (but i see this changing when they add all the proto menus to upgrade Jps and Exos. So they will lose something instantly upgrade wise just like the Arms Lab.)
AA gets enough of a lose by having to research another AA and building a proto requires the AA plus being very expensive<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So aliens need to get shafted upon losing a second hive, by having all their active lifeforms lose their second hive abilities, essentially making them unable to 'continue the fight' against jetpackers but somehow marines should still maintain active jetpacks even though the protolab is destroyed? (Which leaves them able to 'continue the fight' with the lifeforms they would, without jetpacks, have trouble coutnering?)
Sorry but I honestly don't understand how anyone could defend such obvious imbalance. Losing your second hive is bad enough, it shouldn't be this instant GG for aliens. Ninja hive takedowns can happen, certainly when JPs are in the field, it isn't always possible to defend a hive in time. Nor should the effects of that second hive loss (or protolab) be that IMMEDIATE on gameplay. (Else there is absolutely no room for a comeback, doesn't exactly make for dynamic gameplay)
Boring? Whaa? How is having a clear objective and clear goal bad? The game was intense and fun fighting for that second hive location. When there were equal teams the fight over hive locations were awesome (whether it be NS1 or NS2 an imbalance in teams will always result in a bad game). Marines would generally setup in one hive spot while the aliens tried to get the best choice out of the two. It was hard to cover both places for marines and gave the edge to the aliens getting that second hive. Once hive two was out there was still great game play. It was about balancing the importance of defending a hive, gaining hive 3 (which was usually a win), and bottling the marines up in MS.
In NS2 what is the objective? Hive denial doesnt seem to be one of them since there are so many locations and defending them all isnt realistic, so everyone hunts RTs and just sits around waiting for higher tech. How is this fun? When a hive goes down, as a comm, i say, "Well i'll just place another at a random location that is overlooked by the marine team." and i usually have a lot of options.
So before you go off on "this isnt a good game play mechanic" neither is what is implemented now if i agreed with your first assessment, which i dont. If you had games that dragged out then there was an inept team winning. People do this is NS2 also, they lack the will/knowledge to make that final killing blow. So blaming the game for poor player performance is ridiculous.
Where we differ is i want clear battle lines and decisive battles, you want random battle line and a lot of battles that can be recovered from. To each his own.
<!--quoteo(post=1952506:date=Jul 19 2012, 12:31 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jul 19 2012, 12:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952506"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So aliens need to get shafted upon losing a second hive, by having all their active lifeforms lose their second hive abilities, essentially making them unable to 'continue the fight' against jetpackers but somehow marines should still maintain active jetpacks even though the protolab is destroyed? (Which leaves them able to 'continue the fight' with the lifeforms they would, without jetpacks, have trouble coutnering?)
Sorry but I honestly don't understand how anyone could defend such obvious imbalance. Losing your second hive is bad enough, it shouldn't be this instant GG for aliens. Ninja hive takedowns can happen, certainly when JPs are in the field, it isn't always possible to defend a hive in time. Nor should the effects of that second hive loss (or protolab) be that IMMEDIATE on gameplay. (Else there is absolutely no room for a comeback, doesn't exactly make for dynamic gameplay)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look, aliens lose their abilities NOT the lifeform, just as marines lose the eventual JP upgrades not the jet pack. It is fair and as i said before a means to an end. How do you expect either team to topple the other if they are at full strength all the time no matter what structure you kill? Honestly i don't know why you would want this mechanic as it promotes more stalemates.
What you're saying is the equivalent of "yeah, the jet pack immediately shuts off if the protolab shuts down, but you're still wearing it on your back and your shotgun still works so its fine."
Its not about promoting stalemates, its about giving the aliens a reason to continue playing the game when they lose their second hive to jps, instead of just rring.
What you're saying is the equivalent of "yeah, the jet pack immediately shuts off if the protolab shuts down, but you're still wearing it on your back and your shotgun still works so its fine."
Its not about promoting stalemates, its about giving the aliens a reason to continue playing the game when they lose their second hive to jps, instead of just rring.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps there should be a new objective then! I really want there to be a timed defense after one team reaches a point of critically losing, but no one ever seems to respond every time I bring it up (75% of RTs and all but 1 hive location allows commander to trigger evacuation, defend for 5-10 minutes for moral victory). The fact is, in competitive multiplayer games, there will always be points at which a loss is inevitable and it's just getting dragged out pointlessly. So instead of trying to minimize that, why not eliminate it completely by altering the end-game conditions.
Anyway, a good thing about gameplay based around the second hive is it forces action. Aliens must push out and take control of a hive room as early as possible if they want to win, rather than just being able to turtle with 1-2 RTs. Marines MUST continually scan and immediately respond with a strong counter-push as soon as the hive goes up. If taking out a second hive isn't a gamechanging event, then what's the rush to take it out? Let's hold what we have until weapons 3 and arcs. That's boring.
I agree to this. I prefer a huge amount of random battle lines (=RT positions + hive positions) over a fixed amount of 2 or 3 battle fields. Simply because its better in the long-term. You don't fight at the always same locations. But this may be personal preference too. I can't even understand how the CS-people can play de_dust over and over again or even this game... but thats another story.
So yes, I like variance in play and battle lines. And you are also right, that you can tell in some games in NS2 who's going to win and this is bad and not fun. But I'm all against focusing on this mechanic and increasing it occurrence by making the 2nd hive even more of a game decider. This way you can end the game right after all tech points are captured and let the one win who has more. But at least you will see many games where half of the people go to ready room after this event. I don't consider this fun.
Thinking about why eclipse seemed so imba in NS2 but was fine in NS1 it occurred to me that in NS1 you can teleport to
any attacked hive using another hive. This is a <b>huge</b> difference and make holding a second hive very difficult on eclipse (which is a four tech points map).
So either:
- Bring back hive teleportation or something similar (gorge canal).
- The layout of maps like eclipse needs to be changed to make it easier to hold a second hive.
- Make the second hive less important.
<img src="http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090726184938/starcraft/images/b/b6/SC1_Nydus_Canal.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
it's a usefull defensive alternative to celerity and adds to the gorge's usefullness I think