A reason RTS games don't strip upgrades on structure loss.

Corpsey

it's not that difficult to have a 2nd arms lab..

KaptajnKLO

I just thought of a middleground with regards to aliens losing upgrades and evolutions if upgrade structures or hives are destoyed:

What if <b>evolutions</b> like leap, blink and so on stay with you until you die even if the second or third hive is destroyed, but <b>upgrades</b> like carapace and regen are still disabled if you lose the upgrade structure? That way there is a distinction between upgrades and evolutions.

Edit: And it also makes it so marines are still rewarded for killing upgrade structures, since if Charlies solution is implemented it is kinda trivial if an upgrade structure is destroyed as the alien comm can just plant a new one in a jiffy and the alien players might not even notice.

LPC

<!--quoteo(post=1954287:date=Jul 27 2012, 02:03 PM:name=Corpsey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corpsey @ Jul 27 2012, 02:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954287"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it's not that difficult to have a 2nd arms lab..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

it is also not that difficult to get two armouries, and two observatories in every base that you have.

/end sarcasm duh

<!--quoteo(post=1954290:date=Jul 27 2012, 02:16 PM:name=KaptajnKLO)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KaptajnKLO @ Jul 27 2012, 02:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954290"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just thought of a middleground with regards to aliens losing upgrades and evolutions if upgrade structures or hives are destoyed:

What if <b>evolutions</b> like leap, blink and so on stay with you until you die even if the second or third hive is destroyed, but <b>upgrades</b> like carapace and regen are still disabled if you lose the upgrade structure? That way there is a distinction between upgrades and evolutions.

Edit: And it also makes it so marines are still rewarded for killing upgrade structures, since if Charlies solution is implemented it is kinda trivial if an upgrade structure is destroyed as the alien comm can just plant a new one in a jiffy and the alien players might not even notice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

good idea!

Yuuki

<!--quoteo(post=1954222:date=Jul 27 2012, 09:09 AM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Jul 27 2012, 09:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954222"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The armslab change definitely sounds bad, just going to see lots of suicide marines if they get unlucky spawn. It is working just fine right now. You need to be able to snipe it down to indirectly damage the marines on the field.

Carapace shells etc. evolution chambers need to be snipeable. You need to be able to damage the lifeforms indirectly by sniping the evolutions. The way it is with them now is perfect.

I can actually agree with the hive tech change. Might get nice situations where marines have jetpacks and one fade with blink remains, being pretty much the only hope for the aliens to comeback.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

+1 to that, with the last point needing some testing.

IronHorse

<!--quoteo(post=1954239:date=Jul 27 2012, 02:51 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jul 27 2012, 02:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954239"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the average gamer is more than competent enough to be able to differentiate the skill set of pesky lifeforms that have been in play prior to hive loss and ones that have just showed up. If anything, it will be up the ante for players to try and kill specific players on the enemy team, to make sure they lose their second tier abilities as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Competence in differentiating skill sets of unmarked players across the map has no relevancy to deciding tactics from your base - do you buy a JP or do lerks have spikes now? Do you buy a GL for that rush, or should you defend because 5 gorges have BB still that you dont know about?

I could go on but you get the point...
<i>IT WAS a good design goal to have in that document.. </i><u>violating it has repercussions that are on par with random chance dictating the winner.</u>
Like that fade who happened to be in a safe place healing while second hive went down, unbeknownst to him. Theoretically, marines can take out a hive with no one present to defend it - thinking they just made an impact when they have just made ZERO. (a whole team of lvl 3 aliens will have an easier time throwing up another hive again..)
Gone are the days of "gorges are BBing base powernode! quick finish off the 10% hive!"
Now its just random who you will be encountering that will be upgraded or not. Could be a level 1 Onos or a level 3 lerk.. you'll have no idea.

That doesn't sound strategical or containing depth - <u>it sounds like a dice roll</u> - it sounds like mario party.
disclaimer: <b>IMO</b>.

_Necro_

<!--quoteo(post=1954262:date=Jul 27 2012, 12:47 PM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Jul 27 2012, 12:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Only that they do it constantly right now, and it very much has the ability to destroy the marines. if you can get a couple of vortex fades to work together, you can shutdown the entire base with vortex. Tell me how is that not effective?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Ok, maybe in competitive games. In pubs you see this rarely. Also it is a hive 3 ability. You see it, when the aliens are short before winning. If the aliens have 3 hives and you got no second cc where you have emergency ip's, it may be over already.

fanatic

<!--quoteo(post=1954278:date=Jul 27 2012, 12:41 PM:name=3del!)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (3del! @ Jul 27 2012, 12:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954278"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you not see a problem with fades losing blink on loss of second hive? I think they're pretty useless without blink.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do, but the logical conclusion of that argument is to make blink the hive1 ability (and shadowstep hive2).

Typhon

Imo, if shadow step remains as it is, it should be hive 3. Hive 2 should be focus attack (double damage, double cooldown).

ScardyBob

<!--quoteo(post=1954394:date=Jul 27 2012, 10:45 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 27 2012, 10:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954394"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Competence in differentiating skill sets of unmarked players across the map has no relevancy to deciding tactics from your base - do you buy a JP or do lerks have spikes now? Do you buy a GL for that rush, or should you defend because 5 gorges have BB still that you dont know about?

I could go on but you get the point...
<i>IT WAS a good design goal to have in that document.. </i><u>violating it has repercussions that are on par with random chance dictating the winner.</u>
Like that fade who happened to be in a safe place healing while second hive went down, unbeknownst to him. Theoretically, marines can take out a hive with no one present to defend it - thinking they just made an impact when they have just made ZERO. (a whole team of lvl 3 aliens will have an easier time throwing up another hive again..)
Gone are the days of "gorges are BBing base powernode! quick finish off the 10% hive!"
Now its just random who you will be encountering that will be upgraded or not. Could be a level 1 Onos or a level 3 lerk.. you'll have no idea.

That doesn't sound strategical or containing depth - <u>it sounds like a dice roll</u> - it sounds like mario party.
disclaimer: <b>IMO</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except, the current implementation of many upgrades are invisible to a large degree (how do you determine if a marine has w0 vs w1 or if an alien has cara?). Just because the arms labs or cara shell is built, doesn't mean that the specific player has that upgrade. Its not ideal, but that deficiency hasn't had a serious negative impact on gameplay so far.

Also, I find it hard to believe that just because a fade could still keep cara after the shell dies will make it pointless to techsnipe. The simple fact is that players in NS2 die <b>a lot</b>, such that the majority of players, even on competitive teams, will likely suffer from not having that upgrade upon their next life. Also, forcing the alien comm to devote resource to redropping/evolving the upgrade can be a pretty serious drain on their economy (individual chamber/upgrade costs vary from 15 to 30 TRes and many techsnipes usually take out multiple chambers).

However, I'm not quite found of the vortex changes. It'd be frustrating to be the lone unupgraded marine just because you had the bad luck of spawning when the arms lab was down. Instead, I'd rather see either
1. Vortex have no effect on the arms lab
2. Vortex causes any current upgrades being researched to be reset and the cost refunded (so the marine comm has to start researching it again)
3. Some way for an unupgraded marine to get their full upgrades without dying (maybe when they purchase something from the armory?)

IronHorse

I would agree regarding the transparent nature of upgrades, scardy, but thats a different conversation from blink or leap. Those are <b>DEFINITELY </b>apparent to the receiving end.. so much so i often hear marines communicating it "They dont have blink yet, though" "Chase the onos, it doesn't have stomp!" etc.

If said change only effected upgrades and not abilities, then that's a different conversation - but thats not the case.

It wont make it pointless to techsnipe,<i> it will make it confusing.</i> You have no idea if that lifeform you are fighting is subject to your actions from 10 minutes ago or not.

Whats the issue here, the source? That it is frustrating to lose your ability mid combat, right? <u>That is a communication issue that can be fixed with 15 minutes of polish. </u>

For example: when you run out of ammo you are typically not frustrated like you would be losing leap, mid combat right? This is because you have a visual warning, <b>constantly.</b> And if you are surprised it is because you were not paying attention to the giant white letters.
Why cant the same be done for abilities? Why cant your weapon slot flash or pulsate incrementally for 20 seconds after a hive is lost? Why do we only see/hear "your hive is lost" instead of "your hive and ability X is lost!"??

<i>An easy to fix issue is going to cause all sorts of unintuitive and confusing play because no one is addressing the source, only the symptom.</i>

crypt

<!--quoteo(post=1954703:date=Jul 28 2012, 01:56 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 28 2012, 01:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954703"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It wont make it pointless to techsnipe,<i> it will make it confusing.</i> You have no idea if that lifeform you are fighting is subject to your actions from 10 minutes ago or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doubt it. There are almost never so many higher lifeforms on the playing-field that would make it hard to keep track of. Noone of the rines cares if a skulk still has leap or not, it the fades and onos that are important.

<!--quoteo(post=1954703:date=Jul 28 2012, 01:56 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 28 2012, 01:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954703"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whats the issue here, the source? That it is frustrating to lose your ability mid combat, right? <u>That is a communication issue that can be fixed with 15 minutes of polish. </u>

For example: when you run out of ammo you are typically not frustrated like you would be losing leap, mid combat right? This is because you have a visual warning, <b>constantly.</b> And if you are surprised it is because you were not paying attention to the giant white letters.
Why cant the same be done for abilities? Why cant your weapon slot flash or pulsate incrementally for 20 seconds after a hive is lost? Why do we only see/hear "your hive is lost" instead of "your hive and ability X is lost!"??

<i>An easy to fix issue is going to cause all sorts of unintuitive and confusing play because no one is addressing the source, only the symptom.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The issue is, that fades/onos losing their hive2 abilities are at a much higher disadvantage, making it harder to fight back after loosing a hive. There isn't any communication issue, every player is usually quite aware of a hive going down. What is frustrating is going fade just before loosing your 2. hive and beeing stuck as a shadowstep-fade. You can say "it's his fault" or "that's the way it should be" ... I'm just trying to point out the reason why people are asking for this.

IronHorse

Ok, so then level the playing field so there's no disadvantage? Needing a 2nd CC for some tech is already helping, where you cannot purchase your jps or exos after losing that TP, as well as a destroyed arms lab immediately taking away your upgrades.

But we can extend this further so there's even more consistency in the rules,<i> instead of going the opposite route and making it wholly hell confusing mid game.</i> (i really do think once playercounts get closer to 32 players its going to be nightmare keeping track of who has what upgrade still)

Why dont JPers lose their ability to fly if the proto goes down? It can remain on their back, but they dont get to fly. Ofc proper communication will be there with some leniency before shut off. Just an example of how we can continue on the route of intuitive design while maintaining fairness instead of going the opposite route.

MisterNubs

<!--quoteo(post=1954882:date=Jul 29 2012, 01:54 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 29 2012, 01:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954882"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ofc proper communication will be there with some leniency before shut off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Jet fuel can just not recharge.

Cee Colon Slash

Without some explanation with nanites, it makes no sense that either marines or aliens lose their abilities when the relevant structures are destroyed or vortexed. You want to talk unintuitive? That ability I was playing with just disappeared. I don't care if a reason is written across the screen. It's all the more intuitive with aliens - you have EVOLVED to have this ability. Short of evolving differently (replacing one ability with another) why should that ability be taken away from me?

I think this is exactly the right change, and won't result in quite so many GG moments when a second hive is killed.

As for the vortex on arms lab change:

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So a marine with Armor1 won't lose it if their only ArmsLab is Vortexed, but if a marine spawns during this time, they don't have that armor. When the ArmsLab comes out of the Vortex, they don't get that armor either (only on research complete).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

No one has mentioned the last four words of this sentence: I think it could be an incomplete thought?

At any rate, I'll add my voice to the choir that it seems a bit unintuitive: if the function of the arms lab is to "transmit" new armor values to marines on the field, then as soon as the arms lab comes out of vortex, newly-spawned marines should have the current armor level transmitted to them.

Personally I think a better operation would be to have marines "buy" their weapons and armor upgrades from the arms lab, as they do with all other weapons and equipment.

As for techsniping the alien upgrades: to say that it's not worth it any more is ridiculous. The structures are much easier to kill than an arms lab, and have a major impact on alien players both on the field and newly spawned. At one hive, if both cara and regen are researched, I will frequently evolve between the two depending on the situation. And of course newly spawned aliens don't have the option. And it now costs 30 Tres to develop carapace again (that's 10 less than it costs to drop a <i>hive</i>). I think this will go down as a change similar to removing armor healing from armories - a bunch of players will express their discontent, but ultimately, it will be a good change.

Death_by_bullets

Something I liked about NS1 is that there were 3 hive locations, thus an Alien team getting a second hive was a big reward. Now it seems in NS2 because of the many locations for hives that getting the second hive they are guaranteed these 2nd hive abilities. However, getting a third hive can be difficult in some maps. Perhaps more of the really advanced abilities should be shifted to third hive?

fanatic

<!--quoteo(post=1954710:date=Jul 28 2012, 08:46 PM:name=crypt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crypt @ Jul 28 2012, 08:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954710"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The issue is, that fades/onos losing their hive2 abilities are at a much higher disadvantage, making it harder to fight back after loosing a hive. There isn't any communication issue, every player is usually quite aware of a hive going down. What is frustrating is going fade just before loosing your 2. hive and beeing stuck as a shadowstep-fade. You can say "it's his fault" or "that's the way it should be" ... I'm just trying to point out the reason why people are asking for this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again; the problem is that blink, for some inexplicable reason, is hive2, not that hive2 abilities are lost when the hive goes down.

1dominator1

<!--quoteo(post=1954135:date=Jul 26 2012, 08:20 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 26 2012, 08:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954135"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Disagree with both of those changes.

The first trivializes hive losses (again) and disincentivizes aggressive marine play to "snipe" alien upgrade buildings, which should be a viable tactic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Those upgrades are still pretty pricey.

Uzguz

I agree with moving Blink to the one-hive slot. Blink was a two-hive ability because of the damage reduction mechanic; now that that awful mechanic is gone, its place in the two-hive slot is a deprecated legacy feature in need of maintenance.

hakenspit

<!--quoteo(post=1954110:date=Jul 27 2012, 10:19 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jul 27 2012, 10:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954110"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thanks for the discussion guys. I've read here and thought about this and plan on making the following changes in response:

- When aliens lose evolutions due to losing a Shell (Regeneration) or a Hive (Blink), they keep that ability until they die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This I think will be a lot more intuitive and should help aliens push back a marine advance into a hive (esp if succesful at killing hive before they get there).

<!--quoteo(post=1954110:date=Jul 27 2012, 10:19 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jul 27 2012, 10:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954110"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- When a structure is Vortexed, the marines are not treated as having the it when they spawn or for tech tree requirements (unless they have another one that isn't Vortexed) of course. So a marine with Armor1 won't lose it if their only ArmsLab is Vortexed, but if a marine spawns during this time, they don't have that armor. When the ArmsLab comes out of the Vortex, they don't get that armor either (only on research complete).

I hope this pleases at least some of you...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interesting, so a marine could be just unlucky but I guess it sticks with the whole "You spawn with what tech is available" for both sides.
Dont think it will make much difference but could create an interesting fade tactic with some skulks.

schkorpio

i think the simplest solution here would be that crags or even hives heal shells/viels etc very quickly, so that they cannot be sniped by a lone marine.

Or have the commander be able to cast an umbra cloud...


edit: because i really feel that destorying upgrades on both teams is a very good tactic and adds depth to the gameplay.

e.g. fade is owning your team? destroy the 2nd hive, kill the fade easily.

Wheeee

<!--quoteo(post=1955456:date=Jul 31 2012, 09:58 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 31 2012, 09:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955456"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again; the problem is that blink, for some inexplicable reason, is hive2, not that hive2 abilities are lost when the hive goes down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

shadowstep is actually pretty powerful in conjunction with the fade double-jump. i'm not too worried about the fade losing t2 abilities. onos on the other hand is a fish out of water without stomp.

fanatic

<!--quoteo(post=1956283:date=Aug 3 2012, 04:10 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Aug 3 2012, 04:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1956283"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->shadowstep is actually pretty powerful in conjunction with the fade double-jump. i'm not too worried about the fade losing t2 abilities. onos on the other hand is a fish out of water without stomp.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shadowstep IS very powerful, that's why I want it on hive2. The problem is that shadowstep is useless against jetpacks, which is why it is a bad movement skill for hive1.

Zek

<!--quoteo(post=1956283:date=Aug 2 2012, 10:10 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Aug 2 2012, 10:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1956283"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->shadowstep is actually pretty powerful in conjunction with the fade double-jump. i'm not too worried about the fade losing t2 abilities. onos on the other hand is a fish out of water without stomp.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, Fades can do quite well without Blink, at least in the mid game when they first appear. And needing Hive 2 to compete against top tier marines is pretty par for the course.

OnosFactory

Earlier someone gave a list of games that did strip upgrades...Just like to point out they are all THQ games, and all use a strategic points = res system, NS2 only has one type of node so losing one is pretty easily examined for effect. DOW2 != NS2, in one of those games I can pick up a rifle and fully make up for the strategic shortcomings of my team.

Wheeee

<!--quoteo(post=1956285:date=Aug 2 2012, 11:14 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 2 2012, 11:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1956285"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shadowstep IS very powerful, that's why I want it on hive2. The problem is that shadowstep is useless against jetpacks, which is why it is a bad movement skill for hive1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

yeah, i can see that. losing both leap and blink makes hive 1 comebacks kind of impossible.

fanatic

<!--quoteo(post=1956286:date=Aug 3 2012, 04:15 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Aug 3 2012, 04:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1956286"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree, Fades can do quite well without Blink, at least in the mid game when they first appear. And needing Hive 2 to compete against top tier marines is pretty par for the course.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It should be more difficult if you're not on an equal tech level, but not impossible. If it's impossible, or nearly impossible, it ceases to be any fun at all for the losing side. Have to be careful to not make the slippery slope too slippery.

Compare it to NS1, where blink was hive1. With only 1 hive, aliens were at a very significant disadvantage against high tech marines, but at least they still had a fighting chance. In NS2, where blink is currently hive2, Fades can't even touch good jetpackers. That's no fun at all.

Necro

<!--quoteo(post=1952893:date=Jul 21 2012, 04:27 AM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Jul 21 2012, 04:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952893"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also dislike no-res while dead for Kharaa. Whole team suddenly dies and you're in for 20 seconds of no-res, gg. It's also not fun thinking "I could take out that obs, but I would die, and gain less res".

LOVE Nydus worm gorge -idea :D This NEEDS to be tier 3 for gorges, making them able to dig tunnels for the team to use! ...oh God, adding this, the game would start looking SO much like StarCraft. :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

so true, it would be a great way to move across the map late game, and with it being a late game ability would avoid the hive transfer that was seen in NS1.

antacid

I have come back from 100 games after losing upgrades on both aliens and marines.

So it turns out that what is "impossible" for you, is easily "possible" for me..

Perhaps the problem is that you are just bad?