Sentries fragile as glass
Kuiki
Join Date: 2012-02-03 Member: 143467Members
Join Date: 2012-02-03 Member: 143467Members
Hey everyone,
since the last build, the marine sentries are fragile as hell a single skulk can destroy them in 5sec without getting much damage. Every sentry has a pre fire delay and a fire angle close to 180° or is 180° (dont know this moment :-P). Now they lowered the HP that the sentry feel like made out of glass. In comparison to a whip they are too weak but both cost the same.
maybe tweak up the hitpoints a little bit, not to the old value but not so low as it is now. Another nice feature for the sentry would be that they have a chance (maybe 75%) to take out bilebombs in the air. The vulcan cannons on ships can destroy missiles, why can not the sentry take down bilebombs :-P ?
If the hitpoints stay in this value, maybe the cost can be reduced to 7 or 8. Hydras are much difficulter to take down and these are abillities.
since the last build, the marine sentries are fragile as hell a single skulk can destroy them in 5sec without getting much damage. Every sentry has a pre fire delay and a fire angle close to 180° or is 180° (dont know this moment :-P). Now they lowered the HP that the sentry feel like made out of glass. In comparison to a whip they are too weak but both cost the same.
maybe tweak up the hitpoints a little bit, not to the old value but not so low as it is now. Another nice feature for the sentry would be that they have a chance (maybe 75%) to take out bilebombs in the air. The vulcan cannons on ships can destroy missiles, why can not the sentry take down bilebombs :-P ?
If the hitpoints stay in this value, maybe the cost can be reduced to 7 or 8. Hydras are much difficulter to take down and these are abillities.
Comments
A slight increase in HP would be good and an additional decrease in cost.
To the sentry shoots bilebomb idea:
It is already difficult enough for aliens to get down a marine base. (Compared to marines with their ARC-trains.)
I don't think nerving bilebomb is necessary. It is already counterable by killing the gorge. Adding this feature would only make turtle-strategies for marines more viable. And nobody wants that.
A slight increase in HP would be good and an additional decrease in cost.
To the sentry shoots bilebomb idea:
It is already difficult enough for aliens to get down a marine base. (Compared to marines with their ARC-trains.)
I don't think nerving bilebomb is necessary. It is already counterable by killing the gorge. Adding this feature would only make turtle-strategies for marines more viable. And nobody wants that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with Necro. a slight HP increase would be good, i don't know what they currently cost so i won't say anything about the cost decrease. The bilebomb got nerfed a lot by turning it into a DOT effect.
Anyway something has to be buffed. Lower costs or slightly higher HP. But I'm all for lower costs now.
Every now and then you see a game where turrents actually become viable (after 3/3 upgrades) but on second thought... I am glad that sentries blow.... because they blow.
The thing is sentries shouldn't be able to defend a base alone. They should assist the players but don't take their place.
^This. I think this is achieved by the low health. They give you time to use that phase gate but don't block skulks completely from part of the map.
They are only not used now because of the high price. I think of 5 T-Res or something.
I like how they're relatively easy to destroy now, it reduces the player vs AI part of the game, it's a Player vs Player game after all. If they're too weak for the costs, bring it down to 7~8, but not too low.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->•Changing sentries to be more powerful when marines are nearby and less when they aren't, to address the "feels like we're playing tower defense" problem. Lots of changes to their targeting also.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But in wich way? Moe DMG, or more HP, or better tracking or even greater RoF? They are meant as a support unit now and not a pure place and forget defence unit.
And as Angelusz said, I like how they are now because the AI vs Aliens game isn't as big as some patches ago where aliens had to fight against sentrys and ARCs only all the time, and that was boring.
What I don't like about this concept would be the possibility of a room full of Electrified Sentries, but then that's the same issue as always - spam control. Maybe have them cost 10 res at first, and another 10 res later for Electrified, as well as an unlocking Electrified Tech on the Robotics Factory?
The old turrets were fine, they just needed a price increase to 15 (and additional lategame t.res sinks). Before you could place some strategic turrets to defend important hallways or support your teammates in a push, but now that's pretty much become impossible to rely on. I loved using the supporting sentry tactic as a commander, and now it feels like they've taken away that option as a viable one, further limiting my choices.
With lerk gas blocking turrets, stomp disabling them, vortex disabling them, power nodes disabling them and bilebomb back on gorges there really are MORE THAN ENOUGH adequate alien counters to sentry turrets. Nerfing their HP as well as their DPS (without marines present) was an entirely overkill move and ruined the non-spammed sentry's viability as well as turret farms. (Which therefore qualifies it as a terrible terrible design move)
Seriously, stop watering down the game. Turret farms were annoying, but they hardly ever won games. With good teamwork from the alien side it was incredibly easy to deal with them, certainly when lerk gas blocking them was added. Turret farms, if anything, were more a symptom of poor lategame economy balancing than the turrets themself being too powerful. Yet on top of adding all these alien counters, UWE somehow felt it was necessary to outright destroy individual sentry viability on top of that.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's a difficult problem. Too cheap = spammable again. Too strong = can defend a base alone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is nonsense, a single strong turret would never defend a base on its own. Against a lone skulk YES, but against multiple it would just get drowned. 2 - 3 Could stop a few skulks, but it's not always easy to make all turrets cover each other so you're bound to have some 'blind spots' for aliens to exploit. Not to mention that all you need is a single lerk to gas them.
Tell me, how are strong turrets any different from 10 p.res 3x hydra + clogs blocking entire corridors? They take down sole marines quite easily if he tries to run past them. Yet no one seems to be complaining about that. But god forbid marines get a similar mechanic to block off corridors and defend areas somewhat effectively.
Several turrets SHOULD be able to defend an area alone, or at least hold off until reinforcements arrive. Else there really is no point to turrets. They CAN be countered (quite easily), and they NEED to be expensive so that in a balanced economy you don't have turret spam everywhere. (Which again is a problem mainly lategame due to lack of t.res sinks)
I would have preferred the x turrets per powernode over this ridiculous fix any day. (Granted hardcapping is always a poor way to balance something, at least it wouldn't have entirely destroyed sentries like this 'fix' did) Turret spam was a symptom of a broken lategame economy, not of individual sentry turrets being too powerful.
The changes were made with the sentry as a 'support' structure in mind. After all, they are more powerful with marines nearby.
<!--quoteo(post=1952505:date=Jul 19 2012, 02:12 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jul 19 2012, 02:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952505"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Several turrets SHOULD be able to defend an area alone, or at least hold off until reinforcements arrive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1952505:date=Jul 19 2012, 02:12 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jul 19 2012, 02:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952505"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is nonsense, a single strong turret would never defend a base on its own. Against a lone skulk YES, but against multiple it would just get drowned.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is not nonsense. I might've exaggerated a bit to emphasize my point. None the less, the game is PvP, not PvAI, like I said before. A single skulk should be able to take out a single turret. That's how UWE intends it too. Turrets are fine to slow down alien assaults and to help marines defend a base.
I can understand if you feel that turrets are too weak now. That is a matter of balancing them. Personally I'm a fan of the general idea that turrets have low HP (they look a bit flimsy after all, don't they?). If they're too ineffective now, increase damage a bit. Costs have to be balanced too.
Just because you feel they're not balanced right now, doesn't mean the change in itself is ridiculous.
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On a different note; in my opinion it's a bit strange if turrets are stronger when marines are nearby. It's counter-intuitive, a hidden modifier. I'd rather see their overall dmg be a bit higher, but target tracking a bit slower (for instance updating aim every 0.5 seconds instead of instant). That way a skilled alien can dodge some bullets while they get close in order to get behind it and chomp it down. Multiple turrets can be used to cover eachother, but would become too expensive. Having a marine around will be imperative - which is the goal in the end. Slowing aliens down, without eliminating the need for players to come help.
If you do that gorge will be no good for stronger buildings.... aliens have a hard enough time ending a game as is right now.
It would make it more complicated on game design side but the damage of bile bomb could scale depending on the targets health. So a low health sentry would still need 2-3 bile bombs to be destroyed. I don't like the idea too much but atm its strange that 1 bile bomb is enough to destroy a sentry.
Agree with this. Hidden modifiers suck.
Up sentries cost and up their effectiveness, but give them a short spinup time. That way they don't gib skulks the moment they poke their heads out, but do protect an area pretty well. And if they're expensive enough to not be spammable then they can't cover everything, giving skilled skulks an opportunity to find a safe place to chew on things. I loved doing this in ns1, scouting a room with sentries and trying to figure out where I could get so that I'd be out of the line of fire of the sentries.
give us 2 BADASS sentries like this per cc
make them expensive and give them ammo like before, make the ammo expensive
once they are destroyed they cannot be rebuilt
perhaps give them a smaller firing arc
marginalizing sentries out of the game is not the solution. If there is no viable strategy that involves sentries in competitive games then they are completely useless. 'Support' Structure ... what a complete joke ! competitive players will never need it nor want it because NANO + MEDPACK >>>>> Dumb AI
give us 2 BADASS sentries like this per cc
make them expensive and give them ammo like before, make the ammo expensive
once they are destroyed they cannot be rebuilt
perhaps give them a smaller firing arc
marginalizing sentries out of the game is not the solution. If there is no viable strategy that involves sentries in competitive games then they are completely useless. 'Support' Structure ... what a complete joke ! competitive players will never need it nor want it because NANO + MEDPACK >>>>> Dumb AI<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That wouldn't improve them at all. If you build the 2 sentries and let them face each other they would be to strong. And like i said they are not supposed to take the place of the player and shouldn't be able to defend bases alone.
Nano + medpack are another issue, the combination is to overpowered anyway. Especially since the aliens have no counter part.
Nano + medpack are another issue, the combination is to overpowered anyway. Especially since the aliens have no counter part.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
oh so them facing each other is a huge problem that requires the idea to be thrown out ? lets think outside the box here a little, wouldnt the problem be solved if sentries didnt fire at other sentries ? or if sentries took damage from friendly fire from other sentries ?? reduce their arc of fire to 60' ??
Sentries can still be spammed now, you only need more of them. They need to be hard capped and made more useful at protecting corridors/entrance ways, and with a limited number of them you have to be smart how you use them. They will open up some strategies and tactics in competitive play unlike now where they aren't even used at all.
that would mostly solve their useless-ness in the early game, 1 skulk wouldn't be able to get it down, but 2 skulks wouldn't have much of a problem with it since it takes only 5 bites.
Sentries can still be spammed now, you only need more of them. They need to be hard capped and made more useful at protecting corridors/entrance ways, and with a limited number of them you have to be smart how you use them. They will open up some strategies and tactics in competitive play unlike now where they aren't even used at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't say that. It's just that it was only problematic with the sentries before 214 that they were really hard to take them down when they were facing each other. Since you suggest that the sentries become as powerful as the sentry guns from aliens which are able to take down multiple aliens at once i'm worried.
Like i said before the sentries should support the player but not take their place, and 2 of these sentries could cover easily a corridor/entrance completely. Even without adding a arc functionality they would be way to op in my eyes. I don't see any alien getting close to them with maybe the exception of the fade.
Then whips should either do 1)less damage and/or 2)cost more and/or 3)die easier
One whip, costing the same amount as a turret, physically blocks a route, and not only takes up way more of my time but also usually the majority of my ammo.. as a single marine.
ATM no one uses them because they die in 8 bites (which is what, like 4 seconds?).
One whip, costing the same amount as a turret, physically blocks a route, and not only takes up way more of my time but also usually the majority of my ammo.. as a single marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think the sentry can be compared to the whip.
The whip is melee based though it has a quite nice range for a melee attack. Whips currently cost 15 tres and cost another 15 tres to upgrade if i'm correct and a sentry currently 10tres? The whip can be killed without taking damage from the distance, although it cost a lot of ammo. I survive running by 3 whips as a marine, it's only problematic when they are placed so close to each other that they block a bath completely. And that would also be the only thing i would change about the whips atm, but this thread is about the sentry. ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1952577:date=Jul 19 2012, 10:34 AM:name=mushookees)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mushookees @ Jul 19 2012, 10:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952577"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just remove sentries already, haven't they suffered enough humiliation ? If they get nerfed anymore they might buff aliens lol<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We're talking mainly about ways to buff them again without making them op.
I like this. Sentries are pretty small, so I could see them taking less damage from the bile bomb splash.
I do agree with others that the hidden modifiers suck, although I cannot see a way to avoid it that won't make turret farming a great tactic. I liked the idea of them being fire support, they just need a clear visual cue to marine players that being nearby will buff them.
Maybe an AoE circle that appears when in it, and assigning kills while in to the marine who is nearest? Encourages players to stick by the sentry, even if they are unaware it is being buffed.
i could see them used as something like a fixed heavy mg position in other shooters, strategically placed damage "multipliers" "enhancers". but that requires that a marine is there when the attack beginns, which is very unlikely....
the way they are going, the most likely use of sentrys is offensive, fast built midbattle damagedealers/buffs (because of their low health and appending cost reduction)
i propose a high damage, narrow fireringarc sentry, that takes about 15seconds for 1 skulk to kill.
i think a commander would spend 15-20 tres to relatively secure an entrance/hallway. 1 or 2 skullks couldnt just run past it, but had to circumvent it. with that narrow fireringarc and the high cost its unlikely there will be a second sentry guarding the first.
once the skulks have circumvented it the marines have 15 seconds to get there to save it.