<!--quoteo(post=1952573:date=Jul 19 2012, 06:28 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jul 19 2012, 06:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952573"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did they not nerf sentry accuracy too (when marines are not near or something)? I think it would be fine to buff their HP back to pre-212 levels but to keep the accuracy nerf.
ATM no one uses them because they die in 8 bites (which is what, like 4 seconds?).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Used as a deterrent for an unoccupied base/position, turrets seem weak right now. There is definitely some benefit gained in this scenario (like others suggest, roughly 5 seconds a skulk has to spend taking down a turret before attacking something else). Used in this way, it seems like the cost/benefit is marginal at best, but probably just not an effective game mechanic.
However, I'm not convinced turrets have been played with enough to say they're under powered. While they may not be an effective defense for an unoccupied position, they do become more effective in areas with marines. When marines push forward to control new spaces in a game, could turrets play a role in making a push more effective?
Maybe a buff is needed, and they really only serve a defensive role, but an offensive approach to turrets also seems interesting as a gameplay element and in late-game decision making.
I think its ok if sentries die quick. If the skulk attacks the sentry, you shoot him. If the skulk attacks you, the sentry aimbots him and everyone wins. They are effective with marines around whether or not some hidden 'buff' is applied when marines are nearby. You just need to weld them more often.
Personally i like this new sentry design as it encourages people to use sentries surgically and not just spam them around to create lolyoucan'twinthegame fortresses. I've been playing around with robo first sentry pushes again lately and it still works well.
<!--QuoteBegin-theleggett+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (theleggett)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, I'm not convinced turrets have been played with enough to say they're under powered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> qft. Its going to take some time before people realise they need to comm like a teamplayer and not sentry spam to win like you used to be able to.
No one wants to be killed by a sentry and no one wants to kill a sentry. It's not an engaging part of the game. I don't even see why they are included in the first place. Perhaps a stationary gun that needs to be manned, or some destructible force-field that keeps aliens out instead.
Mmm. Made a few comments about this in the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=119200&view=findpost&p=1949634" target="_blank">b211/212 thread</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1948453:date=Jul 3 2012, 04:57 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 3 2012, 04:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948453"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sentries have been nerfed to oblivion...they are candy for Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1949634:date=Jul 8 2012, 12:50 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 8 2012, 12:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949634"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u>Sentry turrets...</u> Current problem: they die too quickly. Pre-212 problems: they were spammed late game and used for passageway/entrance denial rather than area denial. I like the idea behind the damage-ramp up but I think it would be better implemented as an accuracy ramp-up. The effect would be more intuitive, thinking the sentry gets better at tracking/predicting a target as it collects more tracking data. The callibre and velocity bullets doesn't change. This way a skulk and lerk might benefit from their smaller profile. <ul><li>Restore their HP to pre b212 levels but increase their cost to 12-14 res.</li><li>Remove the ability to re-orient sentries. This change is designed to encourage commanders to build sentries in pairs, facing each other with their backs to the walls to cover each other. This is also the strongest configuration for area denial. We want to discourage them being built in packs all facing the entrance. I want skulks to be able to get in behind and savage them if they're built like that. 24-28 res for a pair should provide decent area denial for fast creatures soo...</li><li>Increase the tracking speed while decreasing the damage. Objective: Encourage light lifeforms to be able to raid but not assault an area that's protected by sentries. Discourage sentries from being the primary target of these light lifeforms. The accuracy ramp-up/tracking speed boost might seem to be in conflict but what I'm suggesting is that a sentry can start shooting at something instantly but have a probabilty based damage for the first little while. By design the effect should be more dramatic at range which in turn makes the sentries more ignorable except for the area they're protecting (in pairs). The way for aliens to deal with sentries is with bile bomb, onos or by taking out the power.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
edited July 2012
Seriously, 300 hp + 100 armor, it's ridiculus. Not even worth 5 res anymore, that and it wont target, anything, not even a skulk!
ATm you have terrible targetting and low as hell hp (2 seconds, its dead to a skulk. kmon guiz) So heres how i think it should be if you want to have a bit o "one world or another" or turrets.
You should either improve damage and tracking speed, so 2 turrets arent worthless, or increase hp and armor, but keep tracking speed and damage.
Those are the two Moons. pick one (or keep a stable middle ground, which is more, fun and fair, so to speak)
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
edited July 2012
Much apreciated. I often forget to use the search button. :P Edit: Also i would like to note that One turret doesn't deterr a skulk, not even 2. As the skulk can just leap behind one turret, chompy chompy for 3 seconds (tested, it takes exactly 3 seconds to mow down a turret, give or take a few miliseconds) And leap behind the other one and chomp that too. with 50 armor, it isn't really at any threat at all as the other turret WILL NOT. target the skulk. So if a turret costs 10 res to look pretty and just be a bite target, why spend 10 res on it? i would rather a 20 res OP turret, (as that skulk) than a 2 10 res weak, pointless, doesnt do anything but look cool turrets. at least i know when i killed that 20 res turret, thats 20 res down the drain. Edit 2: Relevence or no... i feel the same about hydras, i fear a super effective yet expensive hydra over a weak, anoying, pointless 10 res for 3 model. and thats fear, not me going 'hurr durr op nerf it'. if somethings expensive AND powerful, im ok (or not so much at that point) with it.
<b><u>My solution:</u></b><ul><li>Sentries should not be placeable in the firing-cone of other sentries.</li><li>Increase HP so that a skulk needs 5 Seconds to kill a sentry.</li><li>If the sentry is shooting the accuracy gets better over this time for up to 5 seconds. (If the target moves out of the firing-cone, the accuracy is reseted.)</li></ul>
Many marine-only players are wishing for sentries like in the aliens movie. Sentries that are powerful enough of holding an area alone. Just because this is cool. But think one second of the alien player. It is not only boring to chew on a sentry. If it takes 15 seconds, you can be sure, that there will be one marine coming through that PG and kill you before you can do any real damage. Sentries should not be a skulk-area-denial. They should be a buff for defending marines.
The idea of increasing aim over time while shooting at an alien is very good. They shouldn't block an area from skulks. (Skulks are already f.... enough in late game.) But they should be good in shooting at bigger life forms. The bad accuracy wouldn't make a difference when it shoots at an onos. So it would gradually do more damage against higher lifeforms. But after 5 seconds of constant firing would be so accurate, that even a skulk gets heavy damage.
Having them not being able to cover each other isn't a problem and encourage the marines to use them to help defending an area but not using them as area-denial.
The problem right now isn't that the sentries aren't fun. The opposite is the case. They are more fun then ever, but it is bad that a skulk can destroy 10T-Res in 3 seconds. That is the only real problem I think.
<!--quoteo(post=1952494:date=Jul 19 2012, 08:42 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jul 19 2012, 08:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952494"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even though sentries blow, I do have to say their hp is retardedly low. It would be nice to see a HP buff for late game deterrence of skulks.
Every now and then you see a game where turrents actually become viable (after 3/3 upgrades) but on second thought... I am glad that sentries blow.... because they blow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol'd at this post .ADHd :D You really do sum it all up quite effectively!
well i like the idea of sentrys beeng inaccurate = more usefull against larger lifeforms(fade, onos). their appearence tells you that by itself > small = low hp; rotating barrels = high rof/damage; short barrels = low accuracy; no need to imagine änything, its all there.
take that randomly rotated shotgun pattern(or that of the lerk), the impact points can even be triggered in a static succesion, because the pattern is randomly rotating. and give it some punch, so the aliens will want to have 1 or 2 skulks to get it down before going in with the bigger expensive lifeforms.
<!--quoteo(post=1952494:date=Jul 19 2012, 06:42 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jul 19 2012, 06:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952494"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even though sentries blow, I do have to say their hp is retardedly low. It would be nice to see a HP buff for late game deterrence of skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I automatically read this as a limerick and now I can't get it out of my head!
<i>Even though sentries blow, their hp is retardedly low. It would be nice to see an HP increase for late game deterrence of skulks.</i>
ahem... anyway... I don't really have much of an opinion on turrets, the game feels fine without them for the most part. Personally, just as a suggestion to make them useful, I'd love to see them relegated to "extractor defense", because mines really don't cut it and it's super annoying late-game when aliens can just leap around the map from extractor to extractor and marines really can't do much about it aside from phasegate all the things. For an example implementation that would suit this role, make sentries much stronger, but limit them to one per power node area.
I had this discussion during the cast of yesterdays game on Twitch because I -as an old NS1 player who waits for ver 1.0- couldn't understand why there were no turrets built at all. Turns out that they are just to fragile. From my point of view I can't understand this balancing decision: The purpose of a Turret IS a defending mechanism, so it doesn't make any sense to let it be destroyed that quickly. I understand that it shouldn't be "imba" but thats just the other extreme.
P.s: PLUS to balance it in a way that no one is using it anymore kills a bit of atmosphere in a marine game...
<!--quoteo(post=1953225:date=Jul 23 2012, 06:19 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 23 2012, 06:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953225"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b><u>My solution:</u></b><ul><li>Sentries should not be placeable in the firing-cone of other sentries.</li><li>Increase HP so that a skulk needs 5 Seconds to kill a sentry.</li><li>If the sentry is shooting the accuracy gets better over this time for up to 5 seconds. (If the target moves out of the firing-cone, the accuracy is reseted.)</li></ul>
Many marine-only players are wishing for sentries like in the aliens movie. Sentries that are powerful enough of holding an area alone. Just because this is cool. But think one second of the alien player. It is not only boring to chew on a sentry. If it takes 15 seconds, you can be sure, that there will be one marine coming through that PG and kill you before you can do any real damage. Sentries should not be a skulk-area-denial. They should be a buff for defending marines.
The idea of increasing aim over time while shooting at an alien is very good. They shouldn't block an area from skulks. (Skulks are already f.... enough in late game.) But they should be good in shooting at bigger life forms. The bad accuracy wouldn't make a difference when it shoots at an onos. So it would gradually do more damage against higher lifeforms. But after 5 seconds of constant firing would be so accurate, that even a skulk gets heavy damage.
Having them not being able to cover each other isn't a problem and encourage the marines to use them to help defending an area but not using them as area-denial.
The problem right now isn't that the sentries aren't fun. The opposite is the case. They are more fun then ever, but it is bad that a skulk can destroy 10T-Res in 3 seconds. That is the only real problem I think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, bad idea
you have to understand that sentries problem have always been the ability to spam them. When the devs 1st nerfed them, all that happened was more were built, and when they got nerfed again ... even more were built... and so on. Can you see the trend ? The worse sentries became the more they were spammed. What has happened is that we have reached a threshold, sentries have been nerfed so much that they aren't even worth it anymore even when spammed. By buffing them in any way, is a step backwards, they will pass back over the threshold, where people will spam them once again.
Your Idea is just a step backwards in the wrong direction.
Sentries need to be hard capped and re-balanced. There are already counters for sentries (stomp, lerk gas, power nodes, dead spot behind the sentry) More can obviously be done such as your idea of "Sentries should not be placeable in the firing-cone of other sentries." as well as removing the ability to rotate the sentries firing arc after it has been placed.
As for sentries being a defense buff rather than area denial ... then what do you call the gorge ? his very purpose seems to be Area denial with clogs/hydra. And If Sentries arent used in competitive play, then they serve no purpose in NS2 and are a symptom of poor game design.
<!--quoteo(post=1953291:date=Jul 23 2012, 03:24 PM:name=no_idea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (no_idea @ Jul 23 2012, 03:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953291"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I had this discussion during the cast of yesterdays game on Twitch because I -as an old NS1 player who waits for ver 1.0- couldn't understand why there were no turrets built at all. Turns out that they are just to fragile. From my point of view I can't understand this balancing decision: The purpose of a Turret IS a defending mechanism, so it doesn't make any sense to let it be destroyed that quickly. I understand that it shouldn't be "imba" but thats just the other extreme.
P.s: PLUS to balance it in a way that no one is using it anymore kills a bit of atmosphere in a marine game...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They are currenlty pretty close to the hydra in my eyes. Fragile, nice support if you are fighting close to them but no real harm. I'd say that turrets should support you in defending but shouldn't be able to defend on their own. The problem is that they were to strong for a long time, if you add now that marines a ranged based you will come to the conclusion that they can turrtle very effectively. In previous builds there were matches were the aliens had the complete map except the last tech point were the marines were bunkering and the aliens weren't able to take out base for a very long time if they were able to succed before the server crashed under the heavy pressure.
Edit: <!--quoteo(post=1953294:date=Jul 23 2012, 03:40 PM:name=piratedave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (piratedave @ Jul 23 2012, 03:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953294"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for sentries being a defense buff rather than area denial ... then what do you call the gorge ? his very purpose seems to be Area denial with clogs/hydra. And If Sentries arent used in competitive play, then they serve no purpose in NS2 and are a symptom of poor game design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference between the gorge and sentrys are that the gorge has to active defend the location if he wants to hold it. Sentries are placed by the comm and will stay there until they are destroyed or sold, the gorge has to stay a gorge and has to regorge if he dies. If the gorge or no other alien is around a clog wall with 3 hydras is no problem at all. If you are more than 1 marine even a clog wall with hydras were the gorge is nearby should be no problem, especially from the point on were you got the GL.
<!--quoteo(post=1953296:date=Jul 23 2012, 01:43 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 23 2012, 01:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953296"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They are currenlty pretty close to the hydra in my eyes. Fragile, nice support if you are fighting close to them but no real harm. I'd say that turrets should support you in defending but shouldn't be able to defend on their own. The problem is that they were to strong for a long time, if you add now that marines a ranged based you will come to the conclusion that they can turrtle very effectively. In previous builds there were matches were the aliens had the complete map except the last tech point were the marines were bunkering and the aliens weren't able to take out base for a very long time if they were able to succed before the server crashed under the heavy pressure.
Edit:
The difference between the gorge and sentrys are that the gorge has to active defend the location if he wants to hold it. Sentries are placed by the comm and will stay there until they are destroyed or sold, the gorge has to stay a gorge and has to regorge if he dies. If the gorge or no other alien is around a clog wall with 3 hydras is no problem at all. If you are more than 1 marine even a clog wall with hydras were the gorge is nearby should be no problem, especially from the point on were you got the GL.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was making a point that the Gorge is able to place structures that are by their very nature, Area denial. Hydras have suffered the same fate as sentries. They were spammed, then nerfed, then spammed more, then nerfed again, which ultimately resulted in them being hard capped. Whips are currently in the same process. Nerfing these AI structures until they are virtually useless isnt the right approach, it basically eliminated them from competitive play rather than them being a viable strategic tool. Hydras have been capped but they have their own problems, they should probably cease being AI structures (i like this idea without the AI <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118422)" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...owtopic=118422)</a>. Whips should probably be hard capped and re-balanced aswell.
dont get me wrong, i dont enjoy fighting static defence, but thats the whole point, its suppose to be a way for a team to invest in a strategy that impedes the other and force them to counter it or change their strategy and go around it. Being able to spam static defence is what makes it mundane and boring to counter each and every turret/whip/hydra. I mean nobody enjoys killing res towers/powernodes/cysts but they do it because its part of winning the game which is fun.
Great, an UWE dev officially thinks that a part of the game blows. @ ADHD & dev Strayan, I completely agree - sentries blow right now. Likewise do hydras by effectiveness alone, and even more by them "being a gorge ability". At this point I think you could just remove static defense from the game completely (except for whips which actually are useful) and have it truly be a player vs. player game, and not a player vs. non-player. It worked perfectly in NS1 but no, this is NS2.
Sentries barely have any margin for survival. Even before the mega-nerf, skulks (mainly) would find some blind-spot (which is almost impossible to avoid), that's where the "margin" comes in and can save the sentry. Oneses had a very fond appetite for sniping sentries and even then they had somewhat of a chance to survive (the sentries). Right now that margin is inexistent when any lifeform can kill it in under 5s, that's why using them is next to pointless and you might aswell remove altogether.
Or better yet, seeing the style UWE has chosen, how about having the marines be the combat engineers from TF2 by letting them place 1 FREE (not a resource game remember) sentry each, that dies if that marine is not near it.
<!--quoteo(post=1953312:date=Jul 23 2012, 08:47 PM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ Jul 23 2012, 08:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953312"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or better yet, seeing the style UWE has chosen, how about having the marines be the combat engineers from TF2 by letting them place 1 FREE (not a resource game remember) sentry each, that dies if that marine is not near it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I understand no one likes a OP Turret but the way they are now isn't good enough, I like how they die easy but they need to be a little more useful in defending, if anything make them more accurate but with a slow turn speed or pause before attacking.
No Single skulk should be able to solo a room with turrets but maybe a group like 2 or 3 would be enough to take down a couple turrets since they die so quickly especially when you have leap for being able to close in quickly, but i think it sucks that we have to rush phase gates as commanders when using other strategy's could be fun again like a turret rush.
Just make it as it was in NS1 -> usefull but not oberpowered.
To the current players: Please dont say, that the same is going on for the Siege Cannons...?!
P.s. Im not one of these type of persons who go like: Please dont change anything becaus it was good -so it has to stay that way. But in this case... I fear the current direction
A lot of people here are praising the fact that sentries are bad right now, what these people don't understand is that a sentry is supposed to be able to DENY an area vs light enemies or rushes.
In order for these kinds of sentries to effectively defend a room, you need multiple sentries, each one covering another, this adds up to a fairly high sum. Sentry spam is not a good thing, and turret farms were a common problem in NS1, though I only really encountered them when the Marines were turtling in their base for those last few minutes or on siege maps.
I feel like most of the complaints that turrets <i>were</i> too effective was that they couldn't run in to the marine base and simply chew on their armory or IPs, or take out a phase gate with no problems. A sentry is meant to fix these things, they're meant to be static defenses that can deny entire rooms from skulk rushes or harassment from skulks. They currently cannot do their job.
Aliens also have many, many different ways to cripple a sentry defense: lerk gas, bile bombing, onos stomp, fade vortex, literally 80% of all Alien life forms now have an ability that can render a sentry useless. (Leap makes a skulk harder to hit, but I wouldn't call that a "counter")
The sentry is too underpowered because people over reacted, UWE over reacted, and as a result, sentries are now useless. Make them able to hold a room without a marine needing to be present, but not able to defend against a full-on attack against multiple life forms.
That's just my opinion, I played NS1 for years and I never saw much problem with turrets being "too hard" to kill.. I'm thinking that it's an issue with people not knowing what the proper counter is, or how something can be overcome with teamwork.
<!--quoteo(post=1953592:date=Jul 25 2012, 07:54 PM:name=Dimeinurear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dimeinurear @ Jul 25 2012, 07:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953592"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's just my opinion, I played NS1 for years and I never saw much problem with turrets being "too hard" to kill.. I'm thinking that it's an issue with people not knowing what the proper counter is, or how something can be overcome with teamwork.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The thing is ns2 turrets deal a ton more damage and don't require a nearby robotics. Throughout the beta sentries have been designed to do alot of damage that also scales effectively against 'heavier' lifeforms. For a while it was at 25 damage fixed with no ramp up (whopping 250 dps)
mindamage = 5 maxdamage = 20 <i>ramp up time = 5</i> avgROF = 0.1
Thats an effective dps range of 50-200.
It only takes a second for a skulk to lose half their hp with no cara, which is what makes them so deadly with marines around - the marine only needs 50% less accuracy. Stuff dies quickly, including higher lifeforms. Going up against sentries with durable hp values + welders was a huge factor in contributing to 2 hour + long stalemates.
In regard to purpose, i find it preferable to have mines/pg/beacon fill the defensive role. Just because sentries don't fill the defensive role as effectively and sustainably as they used to doesn't mean they're redundant or underpowered. Sentries are still killer when used offensively and aggressively, especially with early marine pushes and welders. Thats how it should be imo - interesting risk/reward, not 'prolong game loss for 2 hours'.
<!--quoteo(post=1953592:date=Jul 25 2012, 11:54 AM:name=Dimeinurear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dimeinurear @ Jul 25 2012, 11:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953592"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Make them able to hold a room without a marine needing to be present, but not able to defend against a full-on attack against multiple life forms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a very marine-biased view of the whole mechanic. So if you need the whole alien team to get one entrenched marine base down. How are aliens supposed to win? Why shouldn't the marines just counter the massive alien attack? Maybe with their sentries the marines only need the half team to counter a full alien push. Resulting in the other half team attacking a hive. This is just very short sighted.
Sentries should never be used as area denial. * A short deterrent to give the marines time to react before the phase gate is attacked, YES! * A buff for marines the defend an area, YES! But NEVER in anyway a static AI which shuts up an area for aliens. There is simply no way to make this not op, because you can slowly advance and secure everything with your sentries. This is totally not fun to fight against as aliens.
piratedave has analyzed it the right way. As long as they can be used as area denial, they will be used for that even if they have to be spammed. Just making them not placeable in the firecone of other sentries would really help this issue. Than we can start to slightly increase their hp to make them useful again.
I was in a game where marines spammed sentries in their base yesterday, I didn't even notice the sentries were there, even with all the marines around. This is a poor joke. Sentries need to go back to being useful, like pre-nerf. Just cap them or increase their res cost, or make them require a robotics factory. There are SO many ways to combat them being spammed, ways that don't totally gimp the viability of small amount of 'tactical' sentries being used. Aliens can clog, whip and hydra up corridors, even with no gorge around. Why can't marines do the same with sentries to some extent?
I already said this before but I'll say it again, a single skulk should be 'denied' of an area or corridor by a 10 - 15 t.res sentry unless he has leap (Or carapace and manages to sneak around it or whatever). Support from gorges, lerks, fades, onos or just larger numbers should be required to overcome some well placed sentries. (Even with no marines present) Marines NEED this to stand a chance in pub games, aliens have way higher mobility, way better area denial and generally are able to have all their players on the frontline. (Since they don't need players out building/rebuilding Rts and forward bases)
Seriously, you guys need to stop being so blindly and irrationally against 'turret defense'. It's an important part of the RTS mechanics, and it's an important part of Marine gameplay in NS 1 just as well. Fighting off a few sentries isn't necessarily boring or annoying, it only becomes a painful chore if they are spammed. Heck, if anything, fighting off a gorge with infinite hydras is WAY more aggravating than sentries ever were. It's impossible for marines to break up a clog + hydra fort with 1 - 2 gorges and the occasional support early game. Yet no one is complaining about that. At least every sentry killed set back the enemy team 10 t.res. Every hydra killed is a pointless exercise when a gorge is around.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a very marine-biased view of the whole mechanic. So if you need the whole alien team to get one entrenched marine base down<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Cut the alien bias. Seriously. You don't need a whole alien team to break up a base with sentries. Nor did you ever. A single lerk with gas would suffice ever since they implement gas blocking turrets. God forbid aliens actually need some teamwork and coordination to be able to achieve a goal in NS 2. They gave almost every alien an ability to combat turrets, so all you'd ever need was a few different aliens to overcome an 'entrenched' position. Yet somehow that wasn't enough and instead they decided to nerf the sentries into the ground. Alien gameplay is already ridiculous easy as it stands, but I guess everyone just wants to continue watering down gameplay to the point where the alien win rate reaches the good ole 80 something %es. I'd actually like to see the win percentages for this build, I wouldn't be surprised if the aliens had a massively higher number.
So basically the marine team can't bring up enough team play on a pub to defend a base where the sentries are only support but not area denial. But the aliens should bring up enough team play to get a base down that has so strong sentries, that they litterally deny a skulk from moving into parts of the map? Can't you see how this can be abused by using such strong sentries to a degree, that you make a skulk useless?
Plus, I only play pub-games and never had a marine team that was not able to follow the coms command to "use the pg" in order to counter an ongoing alien attack at an outpost. Allowing sentries to singlehandedly defend outposts simply increases the "manpower" of the marine team.
I don't want to quote your whole text, therefor i won't
Who said that this is the role of the sentry? AFAIK sentries are supposed to assist the player in defending not be able to do it alone.
And don't be to focused on NS1, this isn't NS1 and UWE wants certain things to change in NS2.
<!--QuoteBegin-"_Necro_"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("_Necro_")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is a very marine-biased view of the whole mechanic. So if you need the whole alien team to get one entrenched marine base down. How are aliens supposed to win? Why shouldn't the marines just counter the massive alien attack? Maybe with their sentries the marines only need the half team to counter a full alien push. Resulting in the other half team attacking a hive. This is just very short sighted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with this statement
SecurityJoin Date: 2005-01-07Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1952505:date=Jul 19 2012, 02:12 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jul 19 2012, 02:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952505"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have to agree, they nerfed sentries to the ground. They went about addressing the issue of turret spam all wrong, similar to what happened with ARCs (Splash damage to stop people from spamming them, really?)
The old turrets were fine, they just needed a price increase to 15 (and additional lategame t.res sinks). Before you could place some strategic turrets to defend important hallways or support your teammates in a push, but now that's pretty much become impossible to rely on. I loved using the supporting sentry tactic as a commander, and now it feels like they've taken away that option as a viable one, further limiting my choices.
With lerk gas blocking turrets, stomp disabling them, vortex disabling them, power nodes disabling them and bilebomb back on gorges there really are MORE THAN ENOUGH adequate alien counters to sentry turrets. Nerfing their HP as well as their DPS (without marines present) was an entirely overkill move and ruined the non-spammed sentry's viability as well as turret farms. (Which therefore qualifies it as a terrible terrible design move)
Seriously, stop watering down the game. Turret farms were annoying, but they hardly ever won games. With good teamwork from the alien side it was incredibly easy to deal with them, certainly when lerk gas blocking them was added. Turret farms, if anything, were more a symptom of poor lategame economy balancing than the turrets themself being too powerful. Yet on top of adding all these alien counters, UWE somehow felt it was necessary to outright destroy individual sentry viability on top of that.
This is nonsense, a single strong turret would never defend a base on its own. Against a lone skulk YES, but against multiple it would just get drowned. 2 - 3 Could stop a few skulks, but it's not always easy to make all turrets cover each other so you're bound to have some 'blind spots' for aliens to exploit. Not to mention that all you need is a single lerk to gas them.
Tell me, how are strong turrets any different from 10 p.res 3x hydra + clogs blocking entire corridors? They take down sole marines quite easily if he tries to run past them. Yet no one seems to be complaining about that. But god forbid marines get a similar mechanic to block off corridors and defend areas somewhat effectively.
Several turrets SHOULD be able to defend an area alone, or at least hold off until reinforcements arrive. Else there really is no point to turrets. They CAN be countered (quite easily), and they NEED to be expensive so that in a balanced economy you don't have turret spam everywhere. (Which again is a problem mainly lategame due to lack of t.res sinks)
I would have preferred the x turrets per powernode over this ridiculous fix any day. (Granted hardcapping is always a poor way to balance something, at least it wouldn't have entirely destroyed sentries like this 'fix' did) Turret spam was a symptom of a broken lategame economy, not of individual sentry turrets being too powerful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I fully agree.
<!--quoteo(post=1952547:date=Jul 19 2012, 05:21 PM:name=LPC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LPC @ Jul 19 2012, 05:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952547"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->how about this: keep them as weak as they are now, only give them a <u>360 degree firing angle.</u> maybe tweak the cost, dunno about that though.
that would mostly solve their useless-ness in the early game, 1 skulk wouldn't be able to get it down, but 2 skulks wouldn't have much of a problem with it since it takes only 5 bites.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like that idea. I was never a fan of the limited firing angle.
<b>I'd personally like to see something like this:
- 360° firing angle - limited to 3 sentries by powernode - high hp/armor to encourage attacks on buildings other than sentries - fast tracking, good accuracy - low damage, so it doesnt stop aliens, just gnaws on their health - higher damage lategame, depending on armslab weapon upgrade</b>
Comments
ATM no one uses them because they die in 8 bites (which is what, like 4 seconds?).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sweeeet no one is using turrets!!! PvP !!!!
However, I'm not convinced turrets have been played with enough to say they're under powered. While they may not be an effective defense for an unoccupied position, they do become more effective in areas with marines. When marines push forward to control new spaces in a game, could turrets play a role in making a push more effective?
Maybe a buff is needed, and they really only serve a defensive role, but an offensive approach to turrets also seems interesting as a gameplay element and in late-game decision making.
Personally i like this new sentry design as it encourages people to use sentries surgically and not just spam them around to create lolyoucan'twinthegame fortresses. I've been playing around with robo first sentry pushes again lately and it still works well.
<!--QuoteBegin-theleggett+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (theleggett)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, I'm not convinced turrets have been played with enough to say they're under powered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
qft. Its going to take some time before people realise they need to comm like a teamplayer and not sentry spam to win like you used to be able to.
<!--quoteo(post=1948453:date=Jul 3 2012, 04:57 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 3 2012, 04:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948453"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sentries have been nerfed to oblivion...they are candy for Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1949634:date=Jul 8 2012, 12:50 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 8 2012, 12:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949634"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u>Sentry turrets...</u>
Current problem: they die too quickly. Pre-212 problems: they were spammed late game and used for passageway/entrance denial rather than area denial.
I like the idea behind the damage-ramp up but I think it would be better implemented as an accuracy ramp-up. The effect would be more intuitive, thinking the sentry gets better at tracking/predicting a target as it collects more tracking data. The callibre and velocity bullets doesn't change. This way a skulk and lerk might benefit from their smaller profile.
<ul><li>Restore their HP to pre b212 levels but increase their cost to 12-14 res.</li><li>Remove the ability to re-orient sentries. This change is designed to encourage commanders to build sentries in pairs, facing each other with their backs to the walls to cover each other. This is also the strongest configuration for area denial. We want to discourage them being built in packs all facing the entrance. I want skulks to be able to get in behind and savage them if they're built like that. 24-28 res for a pair should provide decent area denial for fast creatures soo...</li><li>Increase the tracking speed while decreasing the damage. Objective: Encourage light lifeforms to be able to raid but not assault an area that's protected by sentries. Discourage sentries from being the primary target of these light lifeforms. The accuracy ramp-up/tracking speed boost might seem to be in conflict but what I'm suggesting is that a sentry can start shooting at something instantly but have a probabilty based damage for the first little while. By design the effect should be more dramatic at range which in turn makes the sentries more ignorable except for the area they're protecting (in pairs). The way for aliens to deal with sentries is with bile bomb, onos or by taking out the power.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not even worth 5 res anymore, that and it wont target, anything, not even a skulk!
ATm you have terrible targetting and low as hell hp (2 seconds, its dead to a skulk. kmon guiz)
So heres how i think it should be if you want to have a bit o "one world or another" or turrets.
You should either improve damage and tracking speed, so 2 turrets arent worthless, or increase hp and armor, but keep tracking speed and damage.
Those are the two Moons. pick one (or keep a stable middle ground, which is more, fun and fair, so to speak)
I often forget to use the search button. :P
Edit: Also i would like to note that One turret doesn't deterr a skulk, not even 2.
As the skulk can just leap behind one turret, chompy chompy for 3 seconds (tested, it takes exactly 3 seconds to mow down a turret, give or take a few miliseconds) And leap behind the other one and chomp that too.
with 50 armor, it isn't really at any threat at all as the other turret WILL NOT. target the skulk.
So if a turret costs 10 res to look pretty and just be a bite target, why spend 10 res on it? i would rather a 20 res OP turret, (as that skulk) than a 2 10 res weak, pointless, doesnt do anything but look cool turrets. at least i know when i killed that 20 res turret, thats 20 res down the drain.
Edit 2: Relevence or no... i feel the same about hydras, i fear a super effective yet expensive hydra over a weak, anoying, pointless 10 res for 3 model. and thats fear, not me going 'hurr durr op nerf it'. if somethings expensive AND powerful, im ok (or not so much at that point) with it.
Many marine-only players are wishing for sentries like in the aliens movie. Sentries that are powerful enough of holding an area alone. Just because this is cool. But think one second of the alien player. It is not only boring to chew on a sentry. If it takes 15 seconds, you can be sure, that there will be one marine coming through that PG and kill you before you can do any real damage. Sentries should not be a skulk-area-denial. They should be a buff for defending marines.
The idea of increasing aim over time while shooting at an alien is very good. They shouldn't block an area from skulks. (Skulks are already f.... enough in late game.) But they should be good in shooting at bigger life forms. The bad accuracy wouldn't make a difference when it shoots at an onos. So it would gradually do more damage against higher lifeforms. But after 5 seconds of constant firing would be so accurate, that even a skulk gets heavy damage.
Having them not being able to cover each other isn't a problem and encourage the marines to use them to help defending an area but not using them as area-denial.
The problem right now isn't that the sentries aren't fun. The opposite is the case. They are more fun then ever, but it is bad that a skulk can destroy 10T-Res in 3 seconds. That is the only real problem I think.
Every now and then you see a game where turrents actually become viable (after 3/3 upgrades) but on second thought... I am glad that sentries blow.... because they blow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol'd at this post .ADHd :D You really do sum it all up quite effectively!
their appearence tells you that by itself > small = low hp; rotating barrels = high rof/damage; short barrels = low accuracy;
no need to imagine änything, its all there.
take that randomly rotated shotgun pattern(or that of the lerk), the impact points can even be triggered in a static succesion, because the pattern is randomly rotating. and give it some punch, so the aliens will want to have 1 or 2 skulks to get it down before going in with the bigger expensive lifeforms.
I automatically read this as a limerick and now I can't get it out of my head!
<i>Even though sentries blow,
their hp is retardedly low.
It would be nice to see
an HP increase
for late game deterrence of skulks.</i>
ahem... anyway... I don't really have much of an opinion on turrets, the game feels fine without them for the most part. Personally, just as a suggestion to make them useful, I'd love to see them relegated to "extractor defense", because mines really don't cut it and it's super annoying late-game when aliens can just leap around the map from extractor to extractor and marines really can't do much about it aside from phasegate all the things. For an example implementation that would suit this role, make sentries much stronger, but limit them to one per power node area.
P.s: PLUS to balance it in a way that no one is using it anymore kills a bit of atmosphere in a marine game...
Many marine-only players are wishing for sentries like in the aliens movie. Sentries that are powerful enough of holding an area alone. Just because this is cool. But think one second of the alien player. It is not only boring to chew on a sentry. If it takes 15 seconds, you can be sure, that there will be one marine coming through that PG and kill you before you can do any real damage. Sentries should not be a skulk-area-denial. They should be a buff for defending marines.
The idea of increasing aim over time while shooting at an alien is very good. They shouldn't block an area from skulks. (Skulks are already f.... enough in late game.) But they should be good in shooting at bigger life forms. The bad accuracy wouldn't make a difference when it shoots at an onos. So it would gradually do more damage against higher lifeforms. But after 5 seconds of constant firing would be so accurate, that even a skulk gets heavy damage.
Having them not being able to cover each other isn't a problem and encourage the marines to use them to help defending an area but not using them as area-denial.
The problem right now isn't that the sentries aren't fun. The opposite is the case. They are more fun then ever, but it is bad that a skulk can destroy 10T-Res in 3 seconds. That is the only real problem I think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, bad idea
you have to understand that sentries problem have always been the ability to spam them. When the devs 1st nerfed them, all that happened was more were built, and when they got nerfed again ... even more were built... and so on. Can you see the trend ? The worse sentries became the more they were spammed. What has happened is that we have reached a threshold, sentries have been nerfed so much that they aren't even worth it anymore even when spammed. By buffing them in any way, is a step backwards, they will pass back over the threshold, where people will spam them once again.
Your Idea is just a step backwards in the wrong direction.
Sentries need to be hard capped and re-balanced. There are already counters for sentries (stomp, lerk gas, power nodes, dead spot behind the sentry) More can obviously be done such as your idea of "Sentries should not be placeable in the firing-cone of other sentries." as well as removing the ability to rotate the sentries firing arc after it has been placed.
As for sentries being a defense buff rather than area denial ... then what do you call the gorge ? his very purpose seems to be Area denial with clogs/hydra. And If Sentries arent used in competitive play, then they serve no purpose in NS2 and are a symptom of poor game design.
P.s: PLUS to balance it in a way that no one is using it anymore kills a bit of atmosphere in a marine game...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They are currenlty pretty close to the hydra in my eyes. Fragile, nice support if you are fighting close to them but no real harm. I'd say that turrets should support you in defending but shouldn't be able to defend on their own.
The problem is that they were to strong for a long time, if you add now that marines a ranged based you will come to the conclusion that they can turrtle very effectively. In previous builds there were matches were the aliens had the complete map except the last tech point were the marines were bunkering and the aliens weren't able to take out base for a very long time if they were able to succed before the server crashed under the heavy pressure.
Edit:
<!--quoteo(post=1953294:date=Jul 23 2012, 03:40 PM:name=piratedave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (piratedave @ Jul 23 2012, 03:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953294"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for sentries being a defense buff rather than area denial ... then what do you call the gorge ? his very purpose seems to be Area denial with clogs/hydra. And If Sentries arent used in competitive play, then they serve no purpose in NS2 and are a symptom of poor game design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference between the gorge and sentrys are that the gorge has to active defend the location if he wants to hold it. Sentries are placed by the comm and will stay there until they are destroyed or sold, the gorge has to stay a gorge and has to regorge if he dies. If the gorge or no other alien is around a clog wall with 3 hydras is no problem at all. If you are more than 1 marine even a clog wall with hydras were the gorge is nearby should be no problem, especially from the point on were you got the GL.
The problem is that they were to strong for a long time, if you add now that marines a ranged based you will come to the conclusion that they can turrtle very effectively. In previous builds there were matches were the aliens had the complete map except the last tech point were the marines were bunkering and the aliens weren't able to take out base for a very long time if they were able to succed before the server crashed under the heavy pressure.
Edit:
The difference between the gorge and sentrys are that the gorge has to active defend the location if he wants to hold it. Sentries are placed by the comm and will stay there until they are destroyed or sold, the gorge has to stay a gorge and has to regorge if he dies. If the gorge or no other alien is around a clog wall with 3 hydras is no problem at all. If you are more than 1 marine even a clog wall with hydras were the gorge is nearby should be no problem, especially from the point on were you got the GL.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was making a point that the Gorge is able to place structures that are by their very nature, Area denial. Hydras have suffered the same fate as sentries. They were spammed, then nerfed, then spammed more, then nerfed again, which ultimately resulted in them being hard capped. Whips are currently in the same process. Nerfing these AI structures until they are virtually useless isnt the right approach, it basically eliminated them from competitive play rather than them being a viable strategic tool. Hydras have been capped but they have their own problems, they should probably cease being AI structures (i like this idea without the AI <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118422)" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...owtopic=118422)</a>. Whips should probably be hard capped and re-balanced aswell.
dont get me wrong, i dont enjoy fighting static defence, but thats the whole point, its suppose to be a way for a team to invest in a strategy that impedes the other and force them to counter it or change their strategy and go around it. Being able to spam static defence is what makes it mundane and boring to counter each and every turret/whip/hydra. I mean nobody enjoys killing res towers/powernodes/cysts but they do it because its part of winning the game which is fun.
@ ADHD & dev Strayan, I completely agree - sentries blow right now.
Likewise do hydras by effectiveness alone, and even more by them "being a gorge ability".
At this point I think you could just remove static defense from the game completely (except for whips which actually are useful) and have it truly be a player vs. player game, and not a player vs. non-player. It worked perfectly in NS1 but no, this is NS2.
Sentries barely have any margin for survival. Even before the mega-nerf, skulks (mainly) would find some blind-spot (which is almost impossible to avoid), that's where the "margin" comes in and can save the sentry. Oneses had a very fond appetite for sniping sentries and even then they had somewhat of a chance to survive (the sentries). Right now that margin is inexistent when any lifeform can kill it in under 5s, that's why using them is next to pointless and you might aswell remove altogether.
Or better yet, seeing the style UWE has chosen, how about having the marines be the combat engineers from TF2 by letting them place 1 FREE (not a resource game remember) sentry each, that dies if that marine is not near it.
Please burn that comment :(
There are already counters for sentries (stomp, lerk gas, power nodes, dead spot behind the sentry)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you forgot cloaking/vortex/umbra/gorge spit/fast lerks
No Single skulk should be able to solo a room with turrets but maybe a group like 2 or 3 would be enough to take down a couple turrets since they die so quickly especially when you have leap for being able to close in quickly, but i think it sucks that we have to rush phase gates as commanders when using other strategy's could be fun again like a turret rush.
To the current players: Please dont say, that the same is going on for the Siege Cannons...?!
P.s. Im not one of these type of persons who go like: Please dont change anything becaus it was good -so it has to stay that way. But in this case... I fear the current direction
In order for these kinds of sentries to effectively defend a room, you need multiple sentries, each one covering another, this adds up to a fairly high sum. Sentry spam is not a good thing, and turret farms were a common problem in NS1, though I only really encountered them when the Marines were turtling in their base for those last few minutes or on siege maps.
I feel like most of the complaints that turrets <i>were</i> too effective was that they couldn't run in to the marine base and simply chew on their armory or IPs, or take out a phase gate with no problems. A sentry is meant to fix these things, they're meant to be static defenses that can deny entire rooms from skulk rushes or harassment from skulks. They currently cannot do their job.
Aliens also have many, many different ways to cripple a sentry defense: lerk gas, bile bombing, onos stomp, fade vortex, literally 80% of all Alien life forms now have an ability that can render a sentry useless. (Leap makes a skulk harder to hit, but I wouldn't call that a "counter")
The sentry is too underpowered because people over reacted, UWE over reacted, and as a result, sentries are now useless. Make them able to hold a room without a marine needing to be present, but not able to defend against a full-on attack against multiple life forms.
That's just my opinion, I played NS1 for years and I never saw much problem with turrets being "too hard" to kill.. I'm thinking that it's an issue with people not knowing what the proper counter is, or how something can be overcome with teamwork.
The thing is ns2 turrets deal a ton more damage and don't require a nearby robotics. Throughout the beta sentries have been designed to do alot of damage that also scales effectively against 'heavier' lifeforms. For a while it was at 25 damage fixed with no ramp up (whopping 250 dps)
mindamage = 5
maxdamage = 20
<i>ramp up time = 5</i>
avgROF = 0.1
Thats an effective dps range of 50-200.
It only takes a second for a skulk to lose half their hp with no cara, which is what makes them so deadly with marines around - the marine only needs 50% less accuracy. Stuff dies quickly, including higher lifeforms. Going up against sentries with durable hp values + welders was a huge factor in contributing to 2 hour + long stalemates.
In regard to purpose, i find it preferable to have mines/pg/beacon fill the defensive role. Just because sentries don't fill the defensive role as effectively and sustainably as they used to doesn't mean they're redundant or underpowered. Sentries are still killer when used offensively and aggressively, especially with early marine pushes and welders. Thats how it should be imo - interesting risk/reward, not 'prolong game loss for 2 hours'.
This is a very marine-biased view of the whole mechanic. So if you need the whole alien team to get one entrenched marine base down. How are aliens supposed to win? Why shouldn't the marines just counter the massive alien attack? Maybe with their sentries the marines only need the half team to counter a full alien push. Resulting in the other half team attacking a hive. This is just very short sighted.
Sentries should never be used as area denial.
* A short deterrent to give the marines time to react before the phase gate is attacked, YES!
* A buff for marines the defend an area, YES!
But NEVER in anyway a static AI which shuts up an area for aliens. There is simply no way to make this not op, because you can slowly advance and secure everything with your sentries. This is totally not fun to fight against as aliens.
piratedave has analyzed it the right way. As long as they can be used as area denial, they will be used for that even if they have to be spammed.
Just making them not placeable in the firecone of other sentries would really help this issue. Than we can start to slightly increase their hp to make them useful again.
I already said this before but I'll say it again, a single skulk should be 'denied' of an area or corridor by a 10 - 15 t.res sentry unless he has leap (Or carapace and manages to sneak around it or whatever). Support from gorges, lerks, fades, onos or just larger numbers should be required to overcome some well placed sentries. (Even with no marines present) Marines NEED this to stand a chance in pub games, aliens have way higher mobility, way better area denial and generally are able to have all their players on the frontline. (Since they don't need players out building/rebuilding Rts and forward bases)
Seriously, you guys need to stop being so blindly and irrationally against 'turret defense'. It's an important part of the RTS mechanics, and it's an important part of Marine gameplay in NS 1 just as well. Fighting off a few sentries isn't necessarily boring or annoying, it only becomes a painful chore if they are spammed. Heck, if anything, fighting off a gorge with infinite hydras is WAY more aggravating than sentries ever were. It's impossible for marines to break up a clog + hydra fort with 1 - 2 gorges and the occasional support early game. Yet no one is complaining about that. At least every sentry killed set back the enemy team 10 t.res. Every hydra killed is a pointless exercise when a gorge is around.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a very marine-biased view of the whole mechanic. So if you need the whole alien team to get one entrenched marine base down<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cut the alien bias. Seriously. You don't need a whole alien team to break up a base with sentries. Nor did you ever. A single lerk with gas would suffice ever since they implement gas blocking turrets. God forbid aliens actually need some teamwork and coordination to be able to achieve a goal in NS 2. They gave almost every alien an ability to combat turrets, so all you'd ever need was a few different aliens to overcome an 'entrenched' position. Yet somehow that wasn't enough and instead they decided to nerf the sentries into the ground. Alien gameplay is already ridiculous easy as it stands, but I guess everyone just wants to continue watering down gameplay to the point where the alien win rate reaches the good ole 80 something %es. I'd actually like to see the win percentages for this build, I wouldn't be surprised if the aliens had a massively higher number.
Plus, I only play pub-games and never had a marine team that was not able to follow the coms command to "use the pg" in order to counter an ongoing alien attack at an outpost. Allowing sentries to singlehandedly defend outposts simply increases the "manpower" of the marine team.
I don't want to quote your whole text, therefor i won't
Who said that this is the role of the sentry? AFAIK sentries are supposed to assist the player in defending not be able to do it alone.
And don't be to focused on NS1, this isn't NS1 and UWE wants certain things to change in NS2.
<!--QuoteBegin-"_Necro_"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("_Necro_")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is a very marine-biased view of the whole mechanic. So if you need the whole alien team to get one entrenched marine base down. How are aliens supposed to win? Why shouldn't the marines just counter the massive alien attack? Maybe with their sentries the marines only need the half team to counter a full alien push. Resulting in the other half team attacking a hive. This is just very short sighted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this statement
The old turrets were fine, they just needed a price increase to 15 (and additional lategame t.res sinks). Before you could place some strategic turrets to defend important hallways or support your teammates in a push, but now that's pretty much become impossible to rely on. I loved using the supporting sentry tactic as a commander, and now it feels like they've taken away that option as a viable one, further limiting my choices.
With lerk gas blocking turrets, stomp disabling them, vortex disabling them, power nodes disabling them and bilebomb back on gorges there really are MORE THAN ENOUGH adequate alien counters to sentry turrets. Nerfing their HP as well as their DPS (without marines present) was an entirely overkill move and ruined the non-spammed sentry's viability as well as turret farms. (Which therefore qualifies it as a terrible terrible design move)
Seriously, stop watering down the game. Turret farms were annoying, but they hardly ever won games. With good teamwork from the alien side it was incredibly easy to deal with them, certainly when lerk gas blocking them was added. Turret farms, if anything, were more a symptom of poor lategame economy balancing than the turrets themself being too powerful. Yet on top of adding all these alien counters, UWE somehow felt it was necessary to outright destroy individual sentry viability on top of that.
This is nonsense, a single strong turret would never defend a base on its own. Against a lone skulk YES, but against multiple it would just get drowned. 2 - 3 Could stop a few skulks, but it's not always easy to make all turrets cover each other so you're bound to have some 'blind spots' for aliens to exploit. Not to mention that all you need is a single lerk to gas them.
Tell me, how are strong turrets any different from 10 p.res 3x hydra + clogs blocking entire corridors? They take down sole marines quite easily if he tries to run past them. Yet no one seems to be complaining about that. But god forbid marines get a similar mechanic to block off corridors and defend areas somewhat effectively.
Several turrets SHOULD be able to defend an area alone, or at least hold off until reinforcements arrive. Else there really is no point to turrets. They CAN be countered (quite easily), and they NEED to be expensive so that in a balanced economy you don't have turret spam everywhere. (Which again is a problem mainly lategame due to lack of t.res sinks)
I would have preferred the x turrets per powernode over this ridiculous fix any day. (Granted hardcapping is always a poor way to balance something, at least it wouldn't have entirely destroyed sentries like this 'fix' did) Turret spam was a symptom of a broken lategame economy, not of individual sentry turrets being too powerful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I fully agree.
<!--quoteo(post=1952547:date=Jul 19 2012, 05:21 PM:name=LPC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LPC @ Jul 19 2012, 05:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952547"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->how about this: keep them as weak as they are now, only give them a <u>360 degree firing angle.</u> maybe tweak the cost, dunno about that though.
that would mostly solve their useless-ness in the early game, 1 skulk wouldn't be able to get it down, but 2 skulks wouldn't have much of a problem with it since it takes only 5 bites.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like that idea. I was never a fan of the limited firing angle.
<b>I'd personally like to see something like this:
- 360° firing angle
- limited to 3 sentries by powernode
- high hp/armor to encourage attacks on buildings other than sentries
- fast tracking, good accuracy
- low damage, so it doesnt stop aliens, just gnaws on their health
- higher damage lategame, depending on armslab weapon upgrade</b>