zombiehellmonkeyJoin Date: 2007-08-31Member: 62093Members, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1953552:date=Jul 24 2012, 09:37 PM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Jul 24 2012, 09:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953552"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You cannot compare a still image to moving images it just doesn't work..
A still image can have a lot of sharpness its fine but when things move if things are overly sharp you get a massive amount of noise and lower temporal cohesion.
To see a perfect example of this just look a frame from any film on its own it looks very blurry but in motion it looks great, same thing applies here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong, there is no extra noise generated from a sharp moving image, or less flow. It really depends on your framerate, although some people may find the extra detail distracting when moving, there can be an option for motion blur, just like in <a href="http://www.realmofgaming.com/screenshots/pc/crysis/CrysisE31.jpg" target="_blank">Crysis</a> 2007 (there's another game which has very sharp rendering but does not suffer from the effects which you describe)
And though the average player cannot discern the difference, subconsciously your mind is working less harder to pick things out, as in daily life we normally perceive in 3d rather than 2D. This is the reason why people complain if text displayed is even slightly blurry - it's tiring to read.
<!--quoteo(post=1953551:date=Jul 24 2012, 09:34 PM:name=blujay)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (blujay @ Jul 24 2012, 09:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953551"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That may be an <b>engine limitation</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a post process AA called SMAA which works with deferred lighting engines like Spark but does not blur the image. It is a little more expensive. It also catches more edges on average. I recommend the devs look at it.
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited July 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1953570:date=Jul 25 2012, 07:12 AM:name=Dictator93)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dictator93 @ Jul 25 2012, 07:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953570"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is a post process AA called SMAA which works with deferred lighting engines like Spark but does not blur the image. It is a little more expensive. It also catches more edges on average. I recommend the devs look at it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is no post process AA which does not blur. Blurring the image is the only thing it can do by definition. It does seem a bit better though. There is also MLAA, but from what I've seen it has various issues that make it pretty much unusable.
zombiehellmonkeyJoin Date: 2007-08-31Member: 62093Members, Squad Five Blue
Did some more tests. Seems like the problem of the blurring could be due to the engine's Anisotropic filtering. If you look at the floor textures, there is a noticeable difference with enhanced AA and AF - much crisper.
Catalyst: Use application settings/ ingame AA and AF on/ Shadows + Shadow fade on/ fog and bloom off <img src="http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/1491/2012072500001ingameaaaf.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Catalyst: Use application settings/ ingame AA and AF off/ Shadows + Shadow fade on/ fog and bloom off <img src="http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2640/2012072500002ingameaaaf.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Catalyst: Enhance application settings/ MLAA/ 2xEQ/ AF x8/ ingame AA and AF off/ Shadows + Shadow fade on/ fog and bloom off <img src="http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/4802/2012072500003enhanceapp.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--quoteo(post=1953551:date=Jul 25 2012, 01:34 AM:name=blujay)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (blujay @ Jul 25 2012, 01:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953551"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That may be an engine limitation. I think you're exaggerating how "blurry" it is.
Run those same screen-caps through Photoshop's Gaussian blur with the default low setting. That's blurry. Saying you "can't see" makes you seem pretty weak, considering you'd have to be, say, not wearing your glasses. It's not nearly as blurry as this thread makes it out to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was talking about atmospheric lighting with third person flashlights when talking about having trouble to see stuff. That <i>plus</i> AA and much bloom makes everything blurry. Maybe a slider for atmospherics and bloom would do as well. My Eyes are actually pretty good, that's at least what my doctor said.
<!--quoteo(post=1953570:date=Jul 25 2012, 01:12 AM:name=Dictator93)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dictator93 @ Jul 25 2012, 01:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953570"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is a post process AA called SMAA which works with deferred lighting engines like Spark but does not blur the image. It is a little more expensive. It also catches more edges on average. I recommend the devs look at it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
THIS. SMAA is a more advanced iteration of MLAA, it doesn't seem to blur edges or have any blur setting like FXAA does. I've spent quite a bit of time messing with an SMAA injector in many games, specifically this injector by mrhaandi that seems to be out of development currently. <a href="http://mrhaandi.blogspot.com/p/injectsmaa.html" target="_blank">http://mrhaandi.blogspot.com/p/injectsmaa.html</a>
From every game I've tested it on, mostly shooters, it gives far better IQ than FXAA (either through FXAA injector or forcing it with the new Nvidia drivers). It's almost better than 4x MSAA I think, although I don't have any screenshots to prove it. I'm just going off memory and my obsession with jagged lines. :)
I can't get it to work with Natural Selection 2 though which makes me sad. Please put SMAA in the game eventually!
<!--quoteo(post=1957283:date=Aug 4 2012, 06:19 PM:name=paradoxum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (paradoxum @ Aug 4 2012, 06:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957283"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So what's the tl;dr here, are the devs likely to fix up this blurryness or is it a necessary thing to make the game not run like ass?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The blur is caused by the in-game FXAA anti-aliasing. If they implement SMAA (a newer post-processing aa technique) it wouldn't blur edges so much, thus reducing distant blur. Since the engine won't work with MSAA the original style of multi-sample aa, it really seems like SMAA is the best choice.
<!--quoteo(post=1957372:date=Aug 4 2012, 06:28 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Aug 4 2012, 06:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957372"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->there's an option that is not in the GUI options: r_fog. turn it to 0 and you will most likely get your desired sharpness.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where's the config file so I can start setting up tweaks?
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1957372:date=Aug 4 2012, 06:28 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Aug 4 2012, 06:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957372"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->there's an option that is not in the GUI options: r_fog. turn it to 0 and you will most likely get your desired sharpness.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Biggest issue is that it resets to on (r_fog 1) after every new map/respawn. I've actually gotten into the habit of quickly typing r_fog 0 into the console after every respawn to disable it.
If you want to remove fog permanently, it's explained here : <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119630" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=119630</a>
Comments
A still image can have a lot of sharpness its fine but when things move if things are overly sharp you get a massive amount of noise and lower temporal cohesion.
To see a perfect example of this just look a frame from any film on its own it looks very blurry but in motion it looks great, same thing applies here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong, there is no extra noise generated from a sharp moving image, or less flow. It really depends on your framerate, although some people may find the extra detail distracting when moving, there can be an option for motion blur, just like in <a href="http://www.realmofgaming.com/screenshots/pc/crysis/CrysisE31.jpg" target="_blank">Crysis</a> 2007 (there's another game which has very sharp rendering but does not suffer from the effects which you describe)
And though the average player cannot discern the difference, subconsciously your mind is working less harder to pick things out, as in daily life we normally perceive in 3d rather than 2D. This is the reason why people complain if text displayed is even slightly blurry - it's tiring to read.
<!--quoteo(post=1953551:date=Jul 24 2012, 09:34 PM:name=blujay)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (blujay @ Jul 24 2012, 09:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953551"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That may be an <b>engine limitation</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really hope not.
There is no post process AA which does not blur. Blurring the image is the only thing it can do by definition. It does seem a bit better though. There is also MLAA, but from what I've seen it has various issues that make it pretty much unusable.
Catalyst: Use application settings/ ingame AA and AF on/ Shadows + Shadow fade on/ fog and bloom off
<img src="http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/1491/2012072500001ingameaaaf.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Catalyst: Use application settings/ ingame AA and AF off/ Shadows + Shadow fade on/ fog and bloom off
<img src="http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2640/2012072500002ingameaaaf.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Catalyst: Enhance application settings/ MLAA/ 2xEQ/ AF x8/ ingame AA and AF off/ Shadows + Shadow fade on/ fog and bloom off
<img src="http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/4802/2012072500003enhanceapp.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/9572/ns2floorcompare.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Run those same screen-caps through Photoshop's Gaussian blur with the default low setting. That's blurry. Saying you "can't see" makes you seem pretty weak, considering you'd have to be, say, not wearing your glasses. It's not nearly as blurry as this thread makes it out to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was talking about atmospheric lighting with third person flashlights when talking about having trouble to see stuff. That <i>plus</i> AA and much bloom makes everything blurry. Maybe a slider for atmospherics and bloom would do as well.
My Eyes are actually pretty good, that's at least what my doctor said.
THIS. SMAA is a more advanced iteration of MLAA, it doesn't seem to blur edges or have any blur setting like FXAA does. I've spent quite a bit of time messing with an SMAA injector in many games, specifically this injector by mrhaandi that seems to be out of development currently. <a href="http://mrhaandi.blogspot.com/p/injectsmaa.html" target="_blank">http://mrhaandi.blogspot.com/p/injectsmaa.html</a>
From every game I've tested it on, mostly shooters, it gives far better IQ than FXAA (either through FXAA injector or forcing it with the new Nvidia drivers). It's almost better than 4x MSAA I think, although I don't have any screenshots to prove it. I'm just going off memory and my obsession with jagged lines. :)
I can't get it to work with Natural Selection 2 though which makes me sad. Please put SMAA in the game eventually!
The blur is caused by the in-game FXAA anti-aliasing. If they implement SMAA (a newer post-processing aa technique) it wouldn't blur edges so much, thus reducing distant blur. Since the engine won't work with MSAA the original style of multi-sample aa, it really seems like SMAA is the best choice.
Where's the config file so I can start setting up tweaks?
Biggest issue is that it resets to on (r_fog 1) after every new map/respawn. I've actually gotten into the habit of quickly typing r_fog 0 into the console after every respawn to disable it.