Carapace at the current moment
schu
Join Date: 2012-08-04 Member: 154768Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2012-08-04 Member: 154768Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Since I have very little inside information from upcoming patches, is carapace going to be addressed soon? As of right now carapace, especially for skulks, is insanely overpowered. Skulks start off with 70 hp and 10 armor. Every point of armor adds 2 hp. So total, skulks have 90 hp as a vanilla skulk. When carapace is introduced it adds another 40 armor. That means skulks go from 90 hp to 170 hp. Whoa! That's a huge jump in health.
NS1 skulks only gained 20 extra armor from carapace, which gave them total of 130 hp. Even in NS1 a carapace skulk that uses corners or just gets close to a lmg marine would more than likely kill the marine. In NS2, skulks can just jump like maniacs towards a marine and more than likely kill him. They don't even have to ambush to get kills.
To put this more into perspective, and i wish i frapsed this. I played a game as alien and when i was a vanilla skulk, I went 5-5. After carapace went up, I went 25-5. I didn't die once and just killed platoons of marines by myself by just running up and down walls during combat and just "A-D-A-Ding" marines to death. I would occasionally leave combat with <20 hp or so, but I just killed 3 marines in a matter of seconds from simple wall running/jumping.
So is carapace going to be nerfed for skulks?
NS1 skulks only gained 20 extra armor from carapace, which gave them total of 130 hp. Even in NS1 a carapace skulk that uses corners or just gets close to a lmg marine would more than likely kill the marine. In NS2, skulks can just jump like maniacs towards a marine and more than likely kill him. They don't even have to ambush to get kills.
To put this more into perspective, and i wish i frapsed this. I played a game as alien and when i was a vanilla skulk, I went 5-5. After carapace went up, I went 25-5. I didn't die once and just killed platoons of marines by myself by just running up and down walls during combat and just "A-D-A-Ding" marines to death. I would occasionally leave combat with <20 hp or so, but I just killed 3 marines in a matter of seconds from simple wall running/jumping.
So is carapace going to be nerfed for skulks?
Comments
<!--quoteo(post=1959342:date=Aug 8 2012, 01:23 PM:name=Sops)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sops @ Aug 8 2012, 01:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959342"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the current carapace because it keeps skulks useful late game, but it is overpowered early-mid game. Perhaps carapace could have multiply levels with increasing cost to research?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The usefulness of skulks lategame is that they are free, not that they should have enough armor to take on sg/gl/ft/jp marines.
Carapace cost 0 res for everyone to get. Skulks shouldn't be useful in the fact that they stand a chance against A3/W3 marines. Skulks should be killing res nodes/power nodes/basic marine structures/ baiting for lerks/fades/gorges that bilebomb. Skulks shouldn't be a main attacking force to kill marines in late-game. That's what the higher life forms are for, especially fade/onos.
+20 armor for 1 hive, +30 armor for 2 hives +40 armor for 3 hives etc.
I too have dominated some of these games as a marine, i'll go 8 kills 0 deaths early game and sometimes end up late game with up to 30 kills + with almost no deaths so it depends on the upgrades and the situation.
I miss xeno kills, I can't count how many times I thought the rines were hurt but the xeno killed not a single one of them over and over again.
I really hope cara will get changed back to the way it was, right now there is no real trade-off. With the performance right now, you don't even need leap to get close to a rine ;) On the other side, I die more often as Onos or Fade if I choose cara -> and shouldn*t it be the other way round? (yes I know, I need to get better ;) )
I too have dominated some of these games as a marine, i'll go 8 kills 0 deaths early game and sometimes end up late game with up to 30 kills + with almost no deaths so it depends on the upgrades and the situation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Armory cost is 10 res. Arms lab cost is 25 res. Weapons 1 is 20 res. Weapons 2 is 30 res. = 85 res
Shell cost 15 res. Carapace upgrade cost 15 res (not sure if its 10-15-20) = ~30 res
I didn't include timing for all the upgrades but we all know carapace is a much faster tech to research than weapons 2 for marines is.
Carapace needs to be fixed, the array of upgrades for each side is out of sync for how much it costs and timing. Weapons 1 or 2 is not the answer to counter a carapace skulk which can be accessed early in the game. Not to mention, you are basing this off of a commander that has to rush these upgrades and not get phase tech early on. You're stuck using the same tech pattern every game in this scenario to "match" carapace for marines.
And I didn't even go over how shotguns interact in the game right now. But i know someone will say "use a shotgun". I'm not a bad tracker or aimer, but ive shot plenty of skulks just in a 1-on-1 interaction with a shotgun and got no kills, just end up dying to a skulk walking up to me and biting me because he had carapace. I'm expecting if i buy a shotgun for 20 res, that i won't die to a skulk early game 1-on-1. If i died and two skulks were there, that's understandable or if i get ambushed by a skulk and didn't check a corner, thats my fault. But if i see a skulk and have him in my sights with the shotty expecting him to die after i point blank shoot him in the face, then i expect him to die. 20 pres is a lot for a shotgun and people usually don't want to lose those to 1 skulk with carapace.
This is a huge balance issue however currently, 50 armor carapace skulks are just way too tanky.
Armor/Weapons 3 marines are also free yet useful late game.
<!--quoteo(post=1959371:date=Aug 8 2012, 04:00 PM:name=Billax)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Billax @ Aug 8 2012, 04:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959371"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On a side note I have never understood why cara also makes you slower. I read that the devs wanted tradeoffs for upgrades but I don't understand this thinking. The point of upgrades and a tech tree is that you have to spend time and resources to get them. So if they are some kind of tradeoff where you have to make a decision, e.g. do I get more armor for less speed, why not have them all unlocked at the beginning? You have to make a choice whether to upgrade anyway right? Also yes I do think cara is imbalanced earlyish game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It also doesn't make any sense when you consider there is no tradeoff to upgrading armor 3 for marines other then time and res.
From listening to a few players in rr, Leap only helps you run away from Marines quickly. It's funny because I always miss when I shoot up at Marines with Leap but I love Leap for escaping Marines. They're probably right.
Fact of the matter, carapace is not overpowered. It keeps aliens in the game, which is why so many marines despise it so much because they don't want a real game, they just want to steam roll.
They dont really need cara in late game when skulks have xeno
I seriously hope Khams are not actually wasting t.res on that ability.
Fact of the matter, carapace is not overpowered. It keeps aliens in the game, which is why so many marines despise it so much because they don't want a real game, they just want to steam roll.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And that justifies why alien commanders go crag hive first nearly 90% of the time? Atleast in the games i've played. Nearly everytime i join aliens i've seen carapace researched first. It keeps aliens in the game the first 3 minutes of the match? So if i decide to comm and go shade first and research cloaking, the aliens wont stand a chance? That doesn't make any sense at all.
And what scaling are you even referring to? I can point out obvious fixes that need to be addressed, one that comes to mind is the cost of a hive is too cheap or just builds way too fast.
Worked in NS1
So are personal upgrades?
You know, if the arguement is that skulks need 50 cara to keep up with a3/w3, you need to realise that it actually overcompensates by a metric ######-ton where 30 cara was already perfect. People talk about scaling and skulks needing to keep up with late game without ever realising that they already scale better and faster than marines with 50 cara.
<b>9 bullets to kill w0 / no cara</b>
<i>10 bullets to kill w3 / 30 cara</i>
<b>14 bullets to kill w3 / 50 cara</b>
The situation is even worse with shotgun slow rof where cara gives you a flat 100% guaranteed increase in survivability against even the best shot-gunners in the entire world. 2 skulks vs 1 sg is now 4 skulks vs 1 sg. 3 skulks is now 6. Add Feign death into the mix and you now have incredibly overpowered skulk pack play.
The only justification for 50 cara was at the design level of having each upgrade having a directly coupled tradeoff. Unfortunately i think this is problematic. It makes the upgrade counter-productive to the notion of alien play being movement focused/intensive and also has serious consequences for Onos viability. It doesn't create an interesting tradeoff, simply a frustrating one. Moreover, when we shift skulk utility into armour and tanking instead of mobility, we are essentially lowering the bar for dumb/lazy skulk play. I would rather UWE try base scaling skulk power through other means such as Xeno.
Tbh, balance isn't even the core problem of the current carapace design - its only the icing on the cake.
Please do. I sure the marines would totally love you for giving them an easy win.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And what scaling are you even referring to? I can point out obvious fixes that need to be addressed, one that comes to mind is the cost of a hive is too cheap or just builds way too fast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comprehension much? I wasn't referring to any because there isn't any. And hives are neither "cheap" nor build too fast. They're fine. Instead, marines should learn how to play before trying to muck up this game even further.
Comprehension much? I wasn't referring to any because there isn't any. And hives are neither "cheap" nor build too fast. They're fine. Instead, marines should learn how to play before trying to muck up this game even further.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do comprehend, i'm just wondering if you do. There is scaling in this game. That's why you do occasionally have early-mid-late games with higher upgrades/tech. The scaling is just flawed in some areas. Carapace is just one of those areas. It scales too much. And it's definitely not because "marines should learn how to play". I'm pretty sure if you played in a scrim/pcw/match you'd see that marines pretty much have it figured out, its just a combination of hit reg, shotgun spread, performance issues, carapace and a few more tech/upgrades that hinder one team from the other to a greater advantage. Mostly the advantages are in favor of aliens.
Now from a pub standpoint, i'd agree with you. Most of the players playing now probably have never really played much NS1, or played in 1.04-2.0x and then quit. So NS2 for many people, including myself, is a new game. But i'm very familiar with NS1. I've been playing it for 10+ years now. NS2 marine play is pretty straight forward: Kill harvesters, cap nodes, expand. That's basic marine strat in a nutshell. You could go for a spawn camp but any decent players would kill your pressure team before or even in the hive.
Leap is amazing mid-combat for mixing up your movement speeds. Mix leaping in with jumps and changing directions works great, not to mention going from one marine to the next after a kill.
Not to mention leap into bunnyhopping gives skulks a HUGE movement speed boost around the map.
If leap isn't helping you in combat, you're not using it right yet :P
/on topic
Yes, skulk armor is WAY too powerful with carapace. They're the fodder alien.
Shell cost 15 res. Carapace upgrade cost 15 res (not sure if its 10-15-20) = ~30 res
I didn't include timing for all the upgrades but we all know carapace is a much faster tech to research than weapons 2 for marines is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You forgot the rez and time to upgrade your hive to a crag hive. That adds an additional 20 rez bringing the total to 50 rez (15 for shell, 15 for cara, 20 for crag). I can't speak for time relation since I don't know how long it takes for marines to get armories and arms labs and the research itself, but iirc, it's about 1 min for crag hive, 15 sec for shell, and 5-10 sec for cara. So around 1.3-1.5 mins for cara if it's built all together. Of course, in a real game, you don't build straight there since you're building harvesters and cysts as well. I tend to get cara about 4-5 mins in.
The problem for the aliens (and why everyone goes crag and cara first) is that cara is REQUIRED to fight marines once they have SG and/or wep 1. Especially since by the time SG is up, wep 1 is almost always up as well if not wep 2. Just played a game where we were camped very heavily into our second hive about 5 minutes in and a lone marine had been able to sneak into the hive before and take out cara. The marines just sat outside with SG and 1-2 shotted everything that came out the doors. The second hive had already been evolved so there was no more cara for us and since we only had 1 RT, no one had enough prez to mutate into a higher life form. From then on, it was just a slow spiral of doom while we tried to push out and marines just held us off until GL/JP/FT. Then they just stormed in and took out the hive.
A slight cara nerf for skulks might be warranted, but cutting the current buff from it in half seems a bit excessive.
<!--quoteo(post=1959414:date=Aug 8 2012, 05:14 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Aug 8 2012, 05:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959414"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The situation is even worse with shotgun slow rof where cara gives you a flat 100% guaranteed increase in survivability against even the best shot-gunners in the entire world. 2 skulks vs 1 sg is now 4 skulks vs 1 sg. 3 skulks is now 6. Add Feign death into the mix and you now have incredibly overpowered skulk pack play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you trying to say that 1 marine SHOULD be able to win against 2 skulks? If so, ffs man, this game is a TEAM game, you can't expect to be able to go out and take on the entire team by yourself. Grab a friend with a GL or a SG or a FT. Atm, 2-3 marines (who are decent shots and have decent upgrades) can take out 4-5 skulks even with cara. Add in the lucky 1-shot here and there and bam, marines have the upper hand while half or more of the alien team respawns.
TBH, I'd be fine with a cara nerf if there was some mutation to increase alien damage. Unless I'm totally blind or just not understanding the game fully (I am rather new to it), alien damage stays relatively close to what it is in the beginning relying on higher life forms for increased damage. Maybe a third mutation on the crag hive that gives scaling damage increase kinda like the different wep upgrades?
They could in NS1.
I am 100% on board for making carapace less useful when it comes out. Suddenly having to put twice the rounds into something doesn't seem very fair and balanced to me. I have a different word for it but I wont say.
I've always said that upping the carapace depending on number of hives could be a useful way to balance cara with the marines ups.
Discounting leap, secondary/tertiary upgrades, a 1 minute game time skulk w/ carapace is exactly the same as a skulk w/ carapace 20 minutes into the game. That is what I'm talking about by zero scaling. I'm talking about upgrades here, not tech. Tech != scaling. Alien tech themselves must scale.
If aliens had a system similar to marines' arms lab (carapace 1, 2, 3) then we wouldn't have terrible threads like this every week. Again, lack of trying on part by UWE.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've always said that upping the carapace depending on number of hives could be a useful way to balance cara with the marines ups.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tying too much ###### to hive reliance don't make for a very interesting game.