<!--quoteo(post=1959436:date=Aug 8 2012, 04:11 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 8 2012, 04:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959436"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=1959433:date=Aug 8 2012, 04:05 PM:name=Samus1111111)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Samus1111111 @ Aug 8 2012, 04:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959433"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you trying to say that 1 marine SHOULD be able to win against 2 skulks?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They could in NS1. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More accurately, a competent Marine with a shotgun and upgrades could mow down non-carapace skulks with 1 shell each. I have done this before. But it is usually because they came in one-by-one or even leaping at my face and I could nail the timing and dodge the idiots. Surprisingly Silent Skulks tended to fare much better in my experience.
EDIT: Think of it like a Hunter in L4D. Sure if you're really good you can one-shot them out of the air as they leap towards you with a shotgun. And if you're good you can even dodge them. But that doesn't mean you'll always do it unless you're super skilled or the Hunter is a noob.
<!--quoteo(post=1959433:date=Aug 8 2012, 04:05 PM:name=Samus1111111)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Samus1111111 @ Aug 8 2012, 04:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959433"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem for the aliens (and why everyone goes crag and cara first) is that cara is REQUIRED to fight marines once they have SG and/or wep 1. Especially since by the time SG is up, wep 1 is almost always up as well if not wep 2. Just played a game where we were camped very heavily into our second hive about 5 minutes in and a lone marine had been able to sneak into the hive before and take out cara. The marines just sat outside with SG and 1-2 shotted everything that came out the doors. The second hive had already been evolved so there was no more cara for us and since we only had 1 RT, no one had enough prez to mutate into a higher life form. From then on, it was just a slow spiral of doom while we tried to push out and marines just held us off until GL/JP/FT. Then they just stormed in and took out the hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the reason why people think cara is absolutely required is because people don't understand how to play as skulk. People will just dive straight for marines instead of taking time to follow or ambush. With cara and leap you basically can start derping around straight into a group of marines. As for your scenario, you let a marine snipe your upgrade and had all your rts except one taken out, then had the whole marine team with shotties outside your base. I don't really see a problem with it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A slight cara nerf for skulks might be warranted, but cutting the current buff from it in half seems a bit excessive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could also say when it was +20 armor, that doubling the buff to +40 was excessive.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you trying to say that 1 marine SHOULD be able to win against 2 skulks? If so, ffs man, this game is a TEAM game, you can't expect to be able to go out and take on the entire team by yourself. Grab a friend with a GL or a SG or a FT. Atm, 2-3 marines (who are decent shots and have decent upgrades) can take out 4-5 skulks even with cara. Add in the lucky 1-shot here and there and bam, marines have the upper hand.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, why not? It's a fps/rts, where upgrades and resources matter. If you spend 20pres then yes you should have an advantage over someone who doesn't. Flip your scenario to fades and marines and you'll see the same thing. I think this is mostly due to the same thing I said earlier. If you rush head on as a skulk to a shotgun marine, why shouldn't you die? If you catch him with his pants down you'll have much better chances.
ON TOPIC: Cara should have been nerfed back to 30 a long time ago. It's ridiculous that it's been in for so long.
<!--quoteo(post=1959433:date=Aug 9 2012, 09:05 AM:name=Samus1111111)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Samus1111111 @ Aug 9 2012, 09:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959433"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you trying to say that 1 marine SHOULD be able to win against 2 skulks? If so, ffs man, this game is a TEAM game, you can't expect to be able to go out and take on the entire team by yourself. Grab a friend with a GL or a SG or a FT. Atm, 2-3 marines (who are decent shots and have decent upgrades) can take out 4-5 skulks even with cara. Add in the lucky 1-shot here and there and bam, marines have the upper hand.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You totally missed the point on so many levels.
1) A shotgun costs 20 pres. A skulk costs 0 pres. 2) Why shouldn't 1 marine <b>be able</b> to win against 2 skulks? If you want to bring the discussion into that minefield, you better be prepared to think about it properly and in depth instead of lackadaisically saying "its a team game". And why is this even relevant? See 3 3) Cara is a straight 2x force multiplier against shotguns with no regard to skill level/aim etc. This is bad. We could just as easily take 2 sg marines and pit them up against 2 skulks = 4 skulks. 4) I don't think you've played enough NS to understand how you're actually supposed to leverage superior alien mobility to gank and outposition. 5) Loose, anecdotal examples arn't exactly strong positions to argue from. 6) You even contradicted yourself. Are you saying 2-3 marines should be able to take out 8-10 skulks? /facepalm
Team balance issues aside, Carapace right now is an even more no-brainer upgrade than it was before, at least for Skulks and Fades. The speed drawback didn't work. It needs to be set back to where it was before, and if it's still a dominant upgrade, that probably means that base alien survivability needs to be addressed somehow.
I honestly enjoy the buffed carapace it causes a back and forth between marines and aliens at the start of the game. This is because the marines are able to shotty rush quite well up until carapace is researched by the aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=1959424:date=Aug 8 2012, 02:44 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Aug 8 2012, 02:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959424"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Leap is amazing mid-combat for mixing up your movement speeds. Mix leaping in with jumps and changing directions works great, not to mention going from one marine to the next after a kill.Not to mention leap into bunnyhopping gives skulks a HUGE movement speed boost around the mapIf leap isn't helping you in combat, you're not using it right yet:P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dewd... carapace doesn't make anything go back and forth. People argue the marines are stronger right off the bat, but not if the aliens swarm and use teamwork. All that happens is the game totally switches in alien favor from an already leveled playing field.
Anything that effectively DOUBLES the amount of bullets you need to kill something I would call OP. Once marines have level 2 or 3 weapons it becomes less of an issue but how often to marines have that by the time aliens have cara? The answer is this... if the marines have level 2/3 weapons before cara the aliens probably already lost and deserved it too.
<!--quoteo(post=1959458:date=Aug 8 2012, 07:44 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Aug 8 2012, 07:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959458"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Team balance issues aside, Carapace right now is an even more no-brainer upgrade than it was before, at least for Skulks and Fades. The speed drawback didn't work. It needs to be set back to where it was before, and if it's still a dominant upgrade, that probably means that base alien survivability needs to be addressed somehow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anything that improves combat killing power and combat survivability are always the top upgrades in any game. The logical choice would to always take those first before any gimmicky upgrades.
Aliens have only carapace to improve survivability and zero upgrades that improve killing power, and the rest of the upgrades are gimmicky (low tier compared to carapace). I shouldn't even have to explain why.
If carapace is reverted back to it's previous numbers, it will still be the number 1 upgrade as the other upgrades are still piss.
Early game as an alien is fun, as against a skilled marine you need to play stealthy and rely on ambushes. That all goes out the door once you get carapace. It allows you to get away with the stupidest things. Maybe it's the hit detection, maybe it's cara, but I've noticed once Skulks get cara...they just rush in for it. No stealth, no tactics, just head-on.
For a game that's suppose to be reliant on skill, Cara is a pretty big oversight - along with Fades.
I'll repost here what I posted in the suggestion forums since it's actually being discussed.
I think this is one area of imbalance that really needs a fix. Atm aliens either have an upgrade or they don't now this either hurts the aliens ie skulks having low armour late game or hurts marines due to skulks/lerks having high armour early game. I believe the best way to fix these problems is to either make upgrades scale with the amount of hives and/or give each alien different effects or amounts for each upgrade.
Using scaling per hive method:
Lets take a look at carapace, it gives skulks 40 armour upfront. Now if the upgrade only gave 15 armour for having one 1 hive 30 for 2 hives and 45 for 3 hives. This evens out the upgrades to a point where skulks aren't weak at any point in the game but they're also not overpowered at any point either. This passive way of upgrading gives aliens a nice boast for having mutiple hives up but also a larger penalty to loosing them. The other upgrades would work in a similar fashion with the exception being feign death which wouldn't really need to scale. Imo this change feels natural and solves alot of headaches when it comes to balancing aliens in early vs late game against marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1959454:date=Aug 8 2012, 06:31 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Aug 8 2012, 06:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959454"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You totally missed the point on so many levels.
1) A shotgun costs 20 pres. A skulk costs 0 pres.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So since SG costs pres and skulks don't, 1 marine with SG should be able to take out as many skulks as would equal the cost of a SG? I don't think so...
<!--quoteo(post=1959454:date=Aug 8 2012, 06:31 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Aug 8 2012, 06:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959454"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) Why shouldn't 1 marine <b>be able</b> to win against 2 skulks? If you want to bring the discussion into that minefield, you better be prepared to think about it properly and in depth instead of lackadaisically saying "its a team game". And why is this even relevant? See 3<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sry, I meant that they should not be guaranteed the victory. There's always the chance that the outnumbered player will win, but it should be based on skill, not the fact that they are stronger or dumb luck.
<!--quoteo(post=1959454:date=Aug 8 2012, 06:31 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Aug 8 2012, 06:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959454"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3) Cara is a straight 2x force multiplier against shotguns with no regard to skill level/aim etc. This is bad. We could just as easily take 2 sg marines and pit them up against 2 skulks = 4 skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And we could say that SG is a 17x strength modifier over an LMG (assuming all pellets hit and don't even start on spread, yes it needs work). And while the SG (to be good with it) requires more skill and/or luck than the LMG, the fact is that, in general, the SG is a major upgrade for marines when fighting skulks.
I did say that I thought a cara nerf was in order, but cutting it by 50% (to 20 armor instead of 40 as was suggested) was, imo, too much. I'd suggest a nerf to 30 armor is more fitting. I also said that this would be better implemented if there was something to increase alien damage (such as wep 1-3) since I have yet to see anything like it and it seems that skulks continue to do the same damage throughout the entire game and the only way to increase damage is to mutate to a higher life form.
<!--quoteo(post=1959454:date=Aug 8 2012, 06:31 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Aug 8 2012, 06:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959454"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4) I don't think you've played enough NS to understand how you're actually supposed to leverage superior alien mobility to gank and outposition.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Possibly true, but just b/c I may not have played a ton, doesn't automatically make my views/points invalid as you are seemingly attempting to say.
<!--quoteo(post=1959454:date=Aug 8 2012, 06:31 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Aug 8 2012, 06:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959454"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->6) You even contradicted yourself. Are you saying 2-3 marines should be able to take out 8-10 skulks? /facepalm<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't say that they SHOULD be able to do this, but that this is how the game is atm.
<!--quoteo(post=1959480:date=Aug 8 2012, 08:02 PM:name=Visor1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Visor1 @ Aug 8 2012, 08:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959480"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Using scaling per hive method:
Lets take a look at carapace, it gives skulks 40 armour upfront. Now if the upgrade only gave 15 armour for having one 1 hive 30 for 2 hives and 45 for 3 hives. This evens out the upgrades to a point where skulks aren't weak at any point in the game but they're also not overpowered at any point either. This passive way of upgrading gives aliens a nice boast for having mutiple hives up but also a larger penalty to loosing them. The other upgrades would work in a similar fashion with the exception being feign death which wouldn't really need to scale. Imo this change feels natural and solves alot of headaches when it comes to balancing aliens in early vs late game against marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I feel that there is already too much tied to hives. If the aliens lose their third or second hive, they lose all the associated tech, thus severely hindering them until that hive can be rebuilt (if it can be rebuilt). While scaling throughout the battle would be nice, maybe just having the mutations having 3 tiers and you must research a tier upgrade at a hive? Similar to wep 1-3 and armor 1-3 except that it wouldn't be reliant on the hives. Imagine if the upgrades were tied to hives and the marines pushed and knocked out 2 of the alien's 3 hives. On top of losing ALL their tech, they would have their mutation's effectiveness reduced by ~66%. This means (assuming that end game is rather balanced between sides) the aliens are 66% weaker than the marines and have virtually no chance of coming back against a competent marine team.
<!--quoteo(post=1959360:date=Aug 9 2012, 06:52 AM:name=antacid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (antacid @ Aug 9 2012, 06:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959360"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I will have to agree, althought cara is a must have for any late game skulk to even survive, it is simply overpowered when rushed (which is always is). Would be better if it improved based on how many hives the aliens have.
+20 armor for 1 hive, +30 armor for 2 hives +40 armor for 3 hives etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1959497:date=Aug 8 2012, 08:41 PM:name=Samus1111111)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Samus1111111 @ Aug 8 2012, 08:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959497"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sry, I meant that they should not be guaranteed the victory. There's always the chance that the outnumbered player will win, but it should be based on skill, not the fact that they are stronger or dumb luck.
...
I didn't say that they SHOULD be able to do this, but that this is how the game is atm.
...
I feel that there is already too much tied to hives. If the aliens lose their third or second hive, they lose all the associated tech, thus severely hindering them until that hive can be rebuilt (if it can be rebuilt). While scaling throughout the battle would be nice, maybe just having the mutations having 3 tiers and you must research a tier upgrade at a hive? Similar to wep 1-3 and armor 1-3 except that it wouldn't be reliant on the hives. Imagine if the upgrades were tied to hives and the marines pushed and knocked out 2 of the alien's 3 hives. On top of losing ALL their tech, they would have their mutation's effectiveness reduced by ~66%. This means (assuming that end game is rather balanced between sides) the aliens are 66% weaker than the marines and have virtually no chance of coming back against a competent marine team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They should be stronger and have a better chance to win if they spend 20 personal res on a shotgun compared to ..0? 2? whatever res it is for carapace at the moment. Marines cannot afford to buy a shotty every life, but it's practically a guarantee a skulk will ALWAYS have cara.
...
Some marines can take out multiple skulks. Many skulks can take out multiple marines. Has nothing to do with shotguns atm.
...
Partially agree. I'd like to see another solution other than scaling it to hives.
For me personally, carapace skulk has reduced the viability of the Fade which I think is a shame. I can often get just as many kills in the late game with a cara/leap skulk and a few other upgrades than I could with a fade, so even if I have the 50 pres to spend sometimes I just can't be bothered! Does anyone else agree? I think that the whole idea of making the skulk usable in the late game has gone too far and a decent solo skulk can now be just as useful as a decent fade. I would love to hear if anyone thinks the same or disagrees for some reason.
Just to clarify, I mean carapace skulk in its current state with 40 extra armour.
<!--quoteo(post=1959465:date=Aug 8 2012, 04:56 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Aug 8 2012, 04:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959465"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anything that improves combat killing power and combat survivability are always the top upgrades in any game. The logical choice would to always take those first before any gimmicky upgrades.
Aliens have only carapace to improve survivability and zero upgrades that improve killing power, and the rest of the upgrades are gimmicky (low tier compared to carapace). I shouldn't even have to explain why.
If carapace is reverted back to it's previous numbers, it will still be the number 1 upgrade as the other upgrades are still piss.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For reference, in NS1 Movement Chambers became the default first chamber. Sensory for Cloak was a distant 2nd. If you went Defensive early you were flammed.
Why?
Because the extra movespeed (map control and closing distances), Silence (Ambushes that kill before you know they're around), and Adrenaline for Lerks was far more effective. Plus Celerity Fades before the 2nd Hive appeared could move around the entire map at ridiculous speeds.
SC was used to get Sensory (yay wall hacks) but primarily Cloak to help ambush. So a lesser extent Focus to help kill level0 Marines was helpful for high-skill players.
What did DC give? Carapace for a few extra HP? Meh. Regen was nice, but only between battles. Redemption Skulks? lol
Raw upgrades don't win games. They can help in a face-to-face fight, but player skill leverages the better map control, flanking, ambush ability, and more provided by the other upgrades.
<!--quoteo(post=1959497:date=Aug 8 2012, 07:41 PM:name=Samus1111111)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Samus1111111 @ Aug 8 2012, 07:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959497"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I feel that there is already too much tied to hives. If the aliens lose their third or second hive, they lose all the associated tech, thus severely hindering them until that hive can be rebuilt (if it can be rebuilt). While scaling throughout the battle would be nice, maybe just having the mutations having 3 tiers and you must research a tier upgrade at a hive? Similar to wep 1-3 and armor 1-3 except that it wouldn't be reliant on the hives. Imagine if the upgrades were tied to hives and the marines pushed and knocked out 2 of the alien's 3 hives. On top of losing ALL their tech, they would have their mutation's effectiveness reduced by ~66%. This means (assuming that end game is rather balanced between sides) the aliens are 66% weaker than the marines and have virtually no chance of coming back against a competent marine team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If marines lose an expansion base it's basicly gg there, so why on earth would aliens need to be on equal footing with marines after they just lost 2 of their bases? I really don't see how aliens would be to reliant on hives with this change now that lifeforms are no longer tied. The numbers I put in can easly be changed to give 25 armour on first upgrade then a small bonus for each hive after. But in any case it's up to the devs to work out the balance and us to provide the feedback.
Skulk Play - Multi-pronged attacks - Baits - Players drawing fire with feints - Teamwork - Ambushing
Skulks should be repeatedly engaging/ambushing marines BEFORE they reach the RT node / hive. Dwindling down their numbers so they have to repeatedly wait for resupply (marines rushing back to the same point to attack the RT node / hive again)
Time to tone cara down to +20, at the moment its just retards repeatedly rushing at a group of marines and exploiting the bad animations on wall running and still winning. Imagine when good players use the above skulk play + 50 armour cara. OP as ######
Marines Should be able to solo 2-3 skulks with LMG/pistol clip (high level skill). See above on how aliens counter this...
<!--quoteo(post=1959537:date=Aug 8 2012, 08:56 PM:name=mf-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mf- @ Aug 8 2012, 08:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959537"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens have had easy mode far to long...
Skulk Play - Multi-pronged attacks - Baits - Players drawing fire with feints - Teamwork - Ambushing
Skulks should be repeatedly engaging/ambushing marines BEFORE they reach the RT node / hive. Dwindling down their numbers so they have to repeatedly wait for resupply (marines rushing back to the same point to attack the RT node / hive again)
Time to tone cara down to +20, at the moment its just retards repeatedly rushing at a group of marines and exploiting the bad animations on wall running and still winning. Imagine when good players use the above skulk play + 50 armour cara. OP as ######
Marines Should be able to solo 2-3 skulks with LMG/pistol clip (high level skill). See above on how aliens counter this...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. The hurr durrr let me rush 3 marines at once with Cara and possibly kill one/get away is so, so stupid. Hope the patch does something about it. I'd like to play Alien again without feeling cheap>.>
<!--quoteo(post=1959528:date=Aug 8 2012, 11:26 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Aug 8 2012, 11:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For reference, in NS1 Movement Chambers became the default first chamber. Sensory for Cloak was a distant 2nd. If you went Defensive early you were flammed.
Why?
Because the extra movespeed (map control and closing distances), Silence (Ambushes that kill before you know they're around), and Adrenaline for Lerks was far more effective. Plus Celerity Fades before the 2nd Hive appeared could move around the entire map at ridiculous speeds.
SC was used to get Sensory (yay wall hacks) but primarily Cloak to help ambush. So a lesser extent Focus to help kill level0 Marines was helpful for high-skill players.
What did DC give? Carapace for a few extra HP? Meh. Regen was nice, but only between battles. Redemption Skulks? lol
Raw upgrades don't win games. They can help in a face-to-face fight, but player skill leverages the better map control, flanking, ambush ability, and more provided by the other upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because NS2 plays completely differently.
While some khams might go MC for celerity first some games, it is always followed up by a fast 2nd hive to get carapace. But if they haven't managed to get a second hive for carapace, they basically just screwed the team over.
<!--quoteo(post=1959360:date=Aug 8 2012, 09:52 PM:name=antacid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (antacid @ Aug 8 2012, 09:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959360"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I will have to agree, althought cara is a must have for any late game skulk to even survive, it is simply overpowered when rushed (which is always is). Would be better if it improved based on how many hives the aliens have.
+20 armor for 1 hive, +30 armor for 2 hives +40 armor for 3 hives etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know it does cost aliens 1 res ( i think its 1) to evolve into carapace, since so many people want the aliens to suffer a penalty for having it instead of uber win ever time they re-spawn what if the Devs upped the cost to about 3 or 4 res? when you die you really feel it just like the marines do when they lose that shotgun, and it lowers the time it takes for people to get fades and lorks so to me that would have a huge impact in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1959355:date=Aug 8 2012, 10:41 PM:name=schu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schu @ Aug 8 2012, 10:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959355"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Carapace cost 0 res for everyone to get. Skulks shouldn't be useful in the fact that they stand a chance against A3/W3 marines. Skulks should be killing res nodes/power nodes/basic marine structures/ baiting for lerks/fades/gorges that bilebomb. Skulks shouldn't be a main attacking force to kill marines in late-game. That's what the higher life forms are for, especially fade/onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are basically sayin that skulk shouldn't be any fun in late game. It isn't fun to get constantly shot down without any success. It isn't fun when you only job is to chew on unguarded RTs. Also you can't say that you need a higher life form to have fun in late game. What if you die to an unlucky shotgun blast? You rage quit? Or just sacrifice your fun for nomming-rts-only?
You postulate a very boring game play mechanic.
To the topic: Yes, cara is to strong right now. +90% net-health is to much in early-/mid-game. It has to scale in some way (maybe with the number of hives). The skulk has to be fun even in late game with SG and GL but the health-explosion with cara right now is to soon and to much.
The upgrade cara itself is the most beneficial. It gives you simply more survivability. Every other upgrade can't compete. That's why it has a trade off. But even with the trade off it is sticking to be the hive1-decision every f...ing time. You simply chose always the +x% health or +x% damage over every other advantage. Making cara scale with hives would make it not this valuable with one hive. Creating more options in first hive-tech and allowing proper scaling with w0-w3. More map control = more health sounds logical. (I would go with +10armor with 1 hive, +20 with 2 hives, etc.)
Also the other upgrades need to get tweaked. Silence is fine. Adrenaline is broken (to fast regenerating, makes flamer useless, endless blink/spore). Cloak should not make you slower. (You are already partial visible while moving.) Celerity should make you plain faster without the rampup. Hypermutation... ? Regen needs to kick in later and get a rampup. Feint Death has to be tweaked so you can decide when you want to come back to life and you should be killable by shooting your corpse.
Making celerity a viable option would be a good thing as well. Make it a flat speed increase without any acceleration time, and no screen blur.
An alternative solution to the hive scaling thing is to make three level of carapace researchable from the shell. It would need to be the same for every upgrade though.
Currently carapace is OP. I would change it to 30( and remove the speed-decrease) If the game-performance works fine (like NS1), 50 armor and speed-decrease will be ok.
Its realy annoying to see 90 % carapace as a first upgrade. And boring. Most players forget how to play different with other hives like shade or shift first. Its so funny to play a sneaky ambushing skulk with silence + feign death. If there also shades on the map, the marines become paranoid :>.
Celerity + Adrenalin works also fine but requieres researched abilitys to work efficiently. Just leaping around like maniacs or nonstop spikes and gasatacks with lerk is crazy :>.
The only annoying thing(for me) is that u have to run back to the hive or need a gorge to heal after every atack.
<!--quoteo(post=1959608:date=Aug 9 2012, 12:53 AM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Aug 9 2012, 12:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959608"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because NS2 plays completely differently.
While some khams might go MC for celerity first some games, it is always followed up by a fast 2nd hive to get carapace. But if they haven't managed to get a second hive for carapace, they basically just screwed the team over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was giving a reference where strict combat upgrades are proven to not be as important as other upgrades.
Speed, Silence, and Cloaking so on are not gimmicks. They are pwoerful tools when used in tehright hands. Much more interesting than straight +Armor or +Dmg in my opinion.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
I think the 50 cara + speefnerf are not really the problem. See so many games where marines fight vs 1 hive cara skulks and had no problems to get mapcontrol.
The trouble start with 2nd hive and the techexplosion. Now skulks can leap around with extra regeneration. I think the real problem is regeneration as it kicks in to early.
Cause the bad performance atm, just leap around till youre fully healed again. Most marines cannot hit you and you are back in the fight after around 5 sec. I mean the difference between 30 armor and 50 are 4 more lmg hits or im wrong? That should be op?
<!--quoteo(post=1959642:date=Aug 9 2012, 11:13 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Aug 9 2012, 11:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are basically sayin that skulk shouldn't be any fun in late game. It isn't fun to get constantly shot down without any success. It isn't fun when you only job is to chew on unguarded RTs. Also you can't say that you need a higher life form to have fun in late game. What if you die to an unlucky shotgun blast? You rage quit? Or just sacrifice your fun for nomming-rts-only?
You postulate a very boring game play mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hardly, hes pointing out that to be effective you have switch roles from early to late game.
If you are stupid enough not to be effective mind as well feel useless. You are not playing alone after all, dont ruin the game for others.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the real problem is regeneration as it kicks in to early.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Regen is on all the time in ns1, isn't it? If so kicking too early might not be the problem.
<!--quoteo(post=1959776:date=Aug 9 2012, 09:23 AM:name=dePARA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dePARA @ Aug 9 2012, 09:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959776"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I mean the difference between 30 armor and 50 are 4 more lmg hits or im wrong? That should be op?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The crucial difference is 1 complete shotgun shell versus 1 partial. Plus running out of LMG bullets and reloading. And the extra shots it takes on Pistol.
It's not the bullets alone, it's the extra time for reloads and time that the Skulk can close on the Marine.
Comments
They could in NS1.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More accurately, a competent Marine with a shotgun and upgrades could mow down non-carapace skulks with 1 shell each. I have done this before. But it is usually because they came in one-by-one or even leaping at my face and I could nail the timing and dodge the idiots. Surprisingly Silent Skulks tended to fare much better in my experience.
EDIT: Think of it like a Hunter in L4D. Sure if you're really good you can one-shot them out of the air as they leap towards you with a shotgun. And if you're good you can even dodge them. But that doesn't mean you'll always do it unless you're super skilled or the Hunter is a noob.
I think the reason why people think cara is absolutely required is because people don't understand how to play as skulk. People will just dive straight for marines instead of taking time to follow or ambush. With cara and leap you basically can start derping around straight into a group of marines. As for your scenario, you let a marine snipe your upgrade and had all your rts except one taken out, then had the whole marine team with shotties outside your base. I don't really see a problem with it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A slight cara nerf for skulks might be warranted, but cutting the current buff from it in half seems a bit excessive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could also say when it was +20 armor, that doubling the buff to +40 was excessive.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you trying to say that 1 marine SHOULD be able to win against 2 skulks? If so, ffs man, this game is a TEAM game, you can't expect to be able to go out and take on the entire team by yourself. Grab a friend with a GL or a SG or a FT. Atm, 2-3 marines (who are decent shots and have decent upgrades) can take out 4-5 skulks even with cara. Add in the lucky 1-shot here and there and bam, marines have the upper hand.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, why not? It's a fps/rts, where upgrades and resources matter. If you spend 20pres then yes you should have an advantage over someone who doesn't. Flip your scenario to fades and marines and you'll see the same thing. I think this is mostly due to the same thing I said earlier. If you rush head on as a skulk to a shotgun marine, why shouldn't you die? If you catch him with his pants down you'll have much better chances.
ON TOPIC: Cara should have been nerfed back to 30 a long time ago. It's ridiculous that it's been in for so long.
You totally missed the point on so many levels.
1) A shotgun costs 20 pres. A skulk costs 0 pres.
2) Why shouldn't 1 marine <b>be able</b> to win against 2 skulks? If you want to bring the discussion into that minefield, you better be prepared to think about it properly and in depth instead of lackadaisically saying "its a team game". And why is this even relevant? See 3
3) Cara is a straight 2x force multiplier against shotguns with no regard to skill level/aim etc. This is bad. We could just as easily take 2 sg marines and pit them up against 2 skulks = 4 skulks.
4) I don't think you've played enough NS to understand how you're actually supposed to leverage superior alien mobility to gank and outposition.
5) Loose, anecdotal examples arn't exactly strong positions to argue from.
6) You even contradicted yourself. Are you saying 2-3 marines should be able to take out 8-10 skulks? /facepalm
Thanks that can work for me!
Dewd... carapace doesn't make anything go back and forth. People argue the marines are stronger right off the bat, but not if the aliens swarm and use teamwork. All that happens is the game totally switches in alien favor from an already leveled playing field.
Anything that effectively DOUBLES the amount of bullets you need to kill something I would call OP. Once marines have level 2 or 3 weapons it becomes less of an issue but how often to marines have that by the time aliens have cara? The answer is this... if the marines have level 2/3 weapons before cara the aliens probably already lost and deserved it too.
Anything that improves combat killing power and combat survivability are always the top upgrades in any game. The logical choice would to always take those first before any gimmicky upgrades.
Aliens have only carapace to improve survivability and zero upgrades that improve killing power, and the rest of the upgrades are gimmicky (low tier compared to carapace). I shouldn't even have to explain why.
If carapace is reverted back to it's previous numbers, it will still be the number 1 upgrade as the other upgrades are still piss.
For a game that's suppose to be reliant on skill, Cara is a pretty big oversight - along with Fades.
I think this is one area of imbalance that really needs a fix. Atm aliens either have an upgrade or they don't now this either hurts the aliens ie skulks having low armour late game or hurts marines due to skulks/lerks having high armour early game. I believe the best way to fix these problems is to either make upgrades scale with the amount of hives and/or give each alien different effects or amounts for each upgrade.
Using scaling per hive method:
Lets take a look at carapace, it gives skulks 40 armour upfront. Now if the upgrade only gave 15 armour for having one 1 hive 30 for 2 hives and 45 for 3 hives. This evens out the upgrades to a point where skulks aren't weak at any point in the game but they're also not overpowered at any point either. This passive way of upgrading gives aliens a nice boast for having mutiple hives up but also a larger penalty to loosing them. The other upgrades would work in a similar fashion with the exception being feign death which wouldn't really need to scale. Imo this change feels natural and solves alot of headaches when it comes to balancing aliens in early vs late game against marines.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119866" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=119866</a>
I chopped off some info so it didn't go offtopic.
1) A shotgun costs 20 pres. A skulk costs 0 pres.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So since SG costs pres and skulks don't, 1 marine with SG should be able to take out as many skulks as would equal the cost of a SG? I don't think so...
<!--quoteo(post=1959454:date=Aug 8 2012, 06:31 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Aug 8 2012, 06:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959454"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) Why shouldn't 1 marine <b>be able</b> to win against 2 skulks? If you want to bring the discussion into that minefield, you better be prepared to think about it properly and in depth instead of lackadaisically saying "its a team game". And why is this even relevant? See 3<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sry, I meant that they should not be guaranteed the victory. There's always the chance that the outnumbered player will win, but it should be based on skill, not the fact that they are stronger or dumb luck.
<!--quoteo(post=1959454:date=Aug 8 2012, 06:31 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Aug 8 2012, 06:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959454"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3) Cara is a straight 2x force multiplier against shotguns with no regard to skill level/aim etc. This is bad. We could just as easily take 2 sg marines and pit them up against 2 skulks = 4 skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And we could say that SG is a 17x strength modifier over an LMG (assuming all pellets hit and don't even start on spread, yes it needs work). And while the SG (to be good with it) requires more skill and/or luck than the LMG, the fact is that, in general, the SG is a major upgrade for marines when fighting skulks.
I did say that I thought a cara nerf was in order, but cutting it by 50% (to 20 armor instead of 40 as was suggested) was, imo, too much. I'd suggest a nerf to 30 armor is more fitting. I also said that this would be better implemented if there was something to increase alien damage (such as wep 1-3) since I have yet to see anything like it and it seems that skulks continue to do the same damage throughout the entire game and the only way to increase damage is to mutate to a higher life form.
<!--quoteo(post=1959454:date=Aug 8 2012, 06:31 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Aug 8 2012, 06:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959454"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4) I don't think you've played enough NS to understand how you're actually supposed to leverage superior alien mobility to gank and outposition.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Possibly true, but just b/c I may not have played a ton, doesn't automatically make my views/points invalid as you are seemingly attempting to say.
<!--quoteo(post=1959454:date=Aug 8 2012, 06:31 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Aug 8 2012, 06:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959454"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->6) You even contradicted yourself. Are you saying 2-3 marines should be able to take out 8-10 skulks? /facepalm<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't say that they SHOULD be able to do this, but that this is how the game is atm.
<!--quoteo(post=1959480:date=Aug 8 2012, 08:02 PM:name=Visor1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Visor1 @ Aug 8 2012, 08:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959480"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Using scaling per hive method:
Lets take a look at carapace, it gives skulks 40 armour upfront. Now if the upgrade only gave 15 armour for having one 1 hive 30 for 2 hives and 45 for 3 hives. This evens out the upgrades to a point where skulks aren't weak at any point in the game but they're also not overpowered at any point either. This passive way of upgrading gives aliens a nice boast for having mutiple hives up but also a larger penalty to loosing them. The other upgrades would work in a similar fashion with the exception being feign death which wouldn't really need to scale. Imo this change feels natural and solves alot of headaches when it comes to balancing aliens in early vs late game against marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I feel that there is already too much tied to hives. If the aliens lose their third or second hive, they lose all the associated tech, thus severely hindering them until that hive can be rebuilt (if it can be rebuilt). While scaling throughout the battle would be nice, maybe just having the mutations having 3 tiers and you must research a tier upgrade at a hive? Similar to wep 1-3 and armor 1-3 except that it wouldn't be reliant on the hives. Imagine if the upgrades were tied to hives and the marines pushed and knocked out 2 of the alien's 3 hives. On top of losing ALL their tech, they would have their mutation's effectiveness reduced by ~66%. This means (assuming that end game is rather balanced between sides) the aliens are 66% weaker than the marines and have virtually no chance of coming back against a competent marine team.
+20 armor for 1 hive, +30 armor for 2 hives +40 armor for 3 hives etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
...
I didn't say that they SHOULD be able to do this, but that this is how the game is atm.
...
I feel that there is already too much tied to hives. If the aliens lose their third or second hive, they lose all the associated tech, thus severely hindering them until that hive can be rebuilt (if it can be rebuilt). While scaling throughout the battle would be nice, maybe just having the mutations having 3 tiers and you must research a tier upgrade at a hive? Similar to wep 1-3 and armor 1-3 except that it wouldn't be reliant on the hives. Imagine if the upgrades were tied to hives and the marines pushed and knocked out 2 of the alien's 3 hives. On top of losing ALL their tech, they would have their mutation's effectiveness reduced by ~66%. This means (assuming that end game is rather balanced between sides) the aliens are 66% weaker than the marines and have virtually no chance of coming back against a competent marine team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They should be stronger and have a better chance to win if they spend 20 personal res on a shotgun compared to ..0? 2? whatever res it is for carapace at the moment. Marines cannot afford to buy a shotty every life, but it's practically a guarantee a skulk will ALWAYS have cara.
...
Some marines can take out multiple skulks. Many skulks can take out multiple marines. Has nothing to do with shotguns atm.
...
Partially agree. I'd like to see another solution other than scaling it to hives.
Just to clarify, I mean carapace skulk in its current state with 40 extra armour.
Aliens have only carapace to improve survivability and zero upgrades that improve killing power, and the rest of the upgrades are gimmicky (low tier compared to carapace). I shouldn't even have to explain why.
If carapace is reverted back to it's previous numbers, it will still be the number 1 upgrade as the other upgrades are still piss.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For reference, in NS1 Movement Chambers became the default first chamber. Sensory for Cloak was a distant 2nd. If you went Defensive early you were flammed.
Why?
Because the extra movespeed (map control and closing distances), Silence (Ambushes that kill before you know they're around), and Adrenaline for Lerks was far more effective. Plus Celerity Fades before the 2nd Hive appeared could move around the entire map at ridiculous speeds.
SC was used to get Sensory (yay wall hacks) but primarily Cloak to help ambush. So a lesser extent Focus to help kill level0 Marines was helpful for high-skill players.
What did DC give? Carapace for a few extra HP? Meh. Regen was nice, but only between battles. Redemption Skulks? lol
Raw upgrades don't win games. They can help in a face-to-face fight, but player skill leverages the better map control, flanking, ambush ability, and more provided by the other upgrades.
If marines lose an expansion base it's basicly gg there, so why on earth would aliens need to be on equal footing with marines after they just lost 2 of their bases? I really don't see how aliens would be to reliant on hives with this change now that lifeforms are no longer tied. The numbers I put in can easly be changed to give 25 armour on first upgrade then a small bonus for each hive after. But in any case it's up to the devs to work out the balance and us to provide the feedback.
Skulk Play
- Multi-pronged attacks
- Baits
- Players drawing fire with feints
- Teamwork
- Ambushing
Skulks should be repeatedly engaging/ambushing marines BEFORE they reach the RT node / hive. Dwindling down their numbers so they have to repeatedly wait for resupply (marines rushing back to the same point to attack the RT node / hive again)
Time to tone cara down to +20, at the moment its just retards repeatedly rushing at a group of marines and exploiting the bad animations on wall running and still winning. Imagine when good players use the above skulk play + 50 armour cara. OP as ######
Marines
Should be able to solo 2-3 skulks with LMG/pistol clip (high level skill). See above on how aliens counter this...
Skulk Play
- Multi-pronged attacks
- Baits
- Players drawing fire with feints
- Teamwork
- Ambushing
Skulks should be repeatedly engaging/ambushing marines BEFORE they reach the RT node / hive. Dwindling down their numbers so they have to repeatedly wait for resupply (marines rushing back to the same point to attack the RT node / hive again)
Time to tone cara down to +20, at the moment its just retards repeatedly rushing at a group of marines and exploiting the bad animations on wall running and still winning. Imagine when good players use the above skulk play + 50 armour cara. OP as ######
Marines
Should be able to solo 2-3 skulks with LMG/pistol clip (high level skill). See above on how aliens counter this...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. The hurr durrr let me rush 3 marines at once with Cara and possibly kill one/get away is so, so stupid. Hope the patch does something about it. I'd like to play Alien again without feeling cheap>.>
Why?
Because the extra movespeed (map control and closing distances), Silence (Ambushes that kill before you know they're around), and Adrenaline for Lerks was far more effective. Plus Celerity Fades before the 2nd Hive appeared could move around the entire map at ridiculous speeds.
SC was used to get Sensory (yay wall hacks) but primarily Cloak to help ambush. So a lesser extent Focus to help kill level0 Marines was helpful for high-skill players.
What did DC give? Carapace for a few extra HP? Meh. Regen was nice, but only between battles. Redemption Skulks? lol
Raw upgrades don't win games. They can help in a face-to-face fight, but player skill leverages the better map control, flanking, ambush ability, and more provided by the other upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because NS2 plays completely differently.
While some khams might go MC for celerity first some games, it is always followed up by a fast 2nd hive to get carapace. But if they haven't managed to get a second hive for carapace, they basically just screwed the team over.
+20 armor for 1 hive, +30 armor for 2 hives +40 armor for 3 hives etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
You are basically sayin that skulk shouldn't be any fun in late game. It isn't fun to get constantly shot down without any success. It isn't fun when you only job is to chew on unguarded RTs.
Also you can't say that you need a higher life form to have fun in late game. What if you die to an unlucky shotgun blast? You rage quit? Or just sacrifice your fun for nomming-rts-only?
You postulate a very boring game play mechanic.
To the topic: Yes, cara is to strong right now. +90% net-health is to much in early-/mid-game. It has to scale in some way (maybe with the number of hives). The skulk has to be fun even in late game with SG and GL but the health-explosion with cara right now is to soon and to much.
The upgrade cara itself is the most beneficial. It gives you simply more survivability. Every other upgrade can't compete. That's why it has a trade off. But even with the trade off it is sticking to be the hive1-decision every f...ing time. You simply chose always the +x% health or +x% damage over every other advantage. Making cara scale with hives would make it not this valuable with one hive. Creating more options in first hive-tech and allowing proper scaling with w0-w3. More map control = more health sounds logical. (I would go with +10armor with 1 hive, +20 with 2 hives, etc.)
Also the other upgrades need to get tweaked. Silence is fine. Adrenaline is broken (to fast regenerating, makes flamer useless, endless blink/spore). Cloak should not make you slower. (You are already partial visible while moving.) Celerity should make you plain faster without the rampup. Hypermutation... ? Regen needs to kick in later and get a rampup. Feint Death has to be tweaked so you can decide when you want to come back to life and you should be killable by shooting your corpse.
An alternative solution to the hive scaling thing is to make three level of carapace researchable from the shell. It would need to be the same for every upgrade though.
If the game-performance works fine (like NS1), 50 armor and speed-decrease will be ok.
Its realy annoying to see 90 % carapace as a first upgrade. And boring. Most players forget how to play different with other hives like shade or shift first. Its so funny to play a sneaky ambushing skulk with silence + feign death. If there also shades on the map, the marines become paranoid :>.
Celerity + Adrenalin works also fine but requieres researched abilitys to work efficiently. Just leaping around like maniacs or nonstop spikes and gasatacks with lerk is crazy :>.
The only annoying thing(for me) is that u have to run back to the hive or need a gorge to heal after every atack.
While some khams might go MC for celerity first some games, it is always followed up by a fast 2nd hive to get carapace. But if they haven't managed to get a second hive for carapace, they basically just screwed the team over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was giving a reference where strict combat upgrades are proven to not be as important as other upgrades.
Speed, Silence, and Cloaking so on are not gimmicks. They are pwoerful tools when used in tehright hands. Much more interesting than straight +Armor or +Dmg in my opinion.
See so many games where marines fight vs 1 hive cara skulks and had no problems to get mapcontrol.
The trouble start with 2nd hive and the techexplosion. Now skulks can leap around with extra regeneration.
I think the real problem is regeneration as it kicks in to early.
Cause the bad performance atm, just leap around till youre fully healed again. Most marines cannot hit you and you are back in the fight after around 5 sec.
I mean the difference between 30 armor and 50 are 4 more lmg hits or im wrong? That should be op?
Also you can't say that you need a higher life form to have fun in late game. What if you die to an unlucky shotgun blast? You rage quit? Or just sacrifice your fun for nomming-rts-only?
You postulate a very boring game play mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hardly, hes pointing out that to be effective you have switch roles from early to late game.
If you are stupid enough not to be effective mind as well feel useless. You are not playing alone after all, dont ruin the game for others.
Regen is on all the time in ns1, isn't it? If so kicking too early might not be the problem.
The crucial difference is 1 complete shotgun shell versus 1 partial. Plus running out of LMG bullets and reloading. And the extra shots it takes on Pistol.
It's not the bullets alone, it's the extra time for reloads and time that the Skulk can close on the Marine.