The 50/50 win loss statistic
Imbalanxd
Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
<div class="IPBDescription">taking bets</div>Taking bets on which glitch/bug/external factor caused a marine/alien win/loss ratio of 50 50 to come up. I'm thinking it has something to do with almost all games being registered as alien victories, regardless of the actual victor.
Either way, it must be something, because everyone knows aliens don't win in this patch.
Either way, it must be something, because everyone knows aliens don't win in this patch.
Comments
Either way, it must be something, because everyone knows aliens don't win in this patch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lawl. Maybe not with the influx of "New" players. Aliens are still stronger imo.
this 22 second spawn is ridiculus, and marines arent affected by any spawn delay? (unless they end up in the ip queue) Der ######e?!
Game type one: Aliens rush the marine spawn in under 2 minutes, marines are overwhelmed and the game ends.
Game type two: Aliens fail to win in the first 5 minutes, marines eventually get grenade launchers (this could happen at the 10 minutes mark or the 30 minute mark, it doesn't really matter as the outcome is the same) and waltz into the hive and fire a few off, ending the game.
Is it harder for them to win? Yes, definitely. Considering the changes in the patch, many people haven't bothered trying to change their play style which has led to many fail lerks and fades. The fact that people have to pick a specific upgrade also causes reduced the survivability of fades, which in turn means marines don't start instantly losing once fades are around.
Obviously there's still some tweaking to do but in terms of pubs at least the game feels much more balanced overall. Competitive play is something else entirely.
Is it harder for them to win? Yes, definitely. Considering the changes in the patch, many people haven't bothered trying to change their play style which has led to many fail lerks and fades. The fact that people have to pick a specific upgrade also causes reduced the survivability of fades, which in turn means marines don't start instantly losing once fades are around.
Obviously there's still some tweaking to do but in terms of pubs at least the game feels much more balanced overall. Competitive play is something else entirely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By mere statistics, if it is harder for aliens to win, then their win loss cannot be 50/50, so I don't really understand what you are saying. Yes, there are the odd "good games" where aliens win, but honestly its usually a case of a lacking marine team that wasn't bulldozed in the first 5 minutes for some or other reason.
As for this notion of "competitive play", I think it should be done away with. The communities definition of competitive play at the moment is a server full of people with playable frame rates. Lets put off labelling it as such until more than 5% of the community have competitive frame rates.
As for this notion of "competitive play", I think it should be done away with. The communities definition of competitive play at the moment is a server full of people with playable frame rates. Lets put off labelling it as such until more than 5% of the community have competitive frame rates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I should have been more clear. I meant it's harder than it was previously, not that it was harder for aliens than marines to win.
There are no bugs in the statistics, this is just what's happening now. It doesn't explain <b>how</b>, so yeah - everyone knows there's more balancing to do.
Currently the game is being balanced for noobs in mind. I am pretty sure that marines will faire better than aliens in competative. Because if yo uactually know how to hit, aliens are very easy to staple with the 'dead' marker right now. Right now they look at pub statistics, which is composed on loads of different specs/fps etc etc. I doubt any figures right now will be accurate.
Glad someone knows whats up. All the stats they get are from pub server. That's why the comp team laugh, because the stats don't hold alot truth.
Its actually stats from all NS2 games played, so there are comp matches in there (scrims/gathers). However, the majority of the data is from pubs.
As a sidenote, that's a very good thing. Since majority prefer/stack to play marine despite being unfavored, it was the only way to have some sort of gameplay going! I think if it was even or god forbid marines dominated, 80% would refuse to play aliens and we'd have 3v2 games with 10 players stacking rines in RR and eventually leaving not to return for a long time.
But anyway, game needs to get balanced, and it's an iterative work in progress (WIP). So if UWE balancing effort led to marines dominating 1 patch now in the end of beta we all just have to suck it up and hold out in this balancing process. UWE took a step to change balance this patch, based on the result - which has to EXIST (meaning games have to be played) - they will take the next step.
A big part I believe is that alien players got used to playing relaxed and winning anyway, much difference can be made from making a bigger effort!
I might have taken this seriously, as you did state there might be an outlier patch, but that patch just so happened to the one that made alien resource towers die in 3 knife hits. So yeeaah, I'm going to take what you said with a handful of salt.
We will be swapping Lerk spores and spikes in 217 this week.
And while it seems impossible for me to communicate: we do not "prefer" pub nor competitive play. The needs of both styles must be balanced, but this is one game.
yayayayaya :D
Everyone told me that the aliens had no way to win and no one wanted to believe me when I told them of the win/loss ratio, while all the games we played the aliens always won...
So the question is, is NS2 better off getting balanced for competitive E-sports play in mind as AuroN2 points out, <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=######vIeFR5ek&feature=g-all-u" target="_blank">or as the dev who was being interviewed says he wants the game to be very enjoyable?</a>
edit: Video link has ###### in it for some reason. How the hell does that happen so your video can't get linked on forums???
Anyways it's on the Total Biscuit Channel, Look for his most recent video, "WTF Is... : FORGE (Alpha) ( Hyper WTF Edition )" if you're interested.
This game has a natural skill curve, due to the game play it has. The assymetric sides requires that a player spend time getting familiar with the pros and cons of that side.
I am extremely elitist in my play style, and I cannot play a game 'just for fun'. For me fun is winning, teamplay and performing over your level. This obviously impacts what I think is 'a good game'.
- 149 Aliens OP, 150 Aliens OP, 151 Aliens OP ... 214 Aliens OP, 215 Aliens OP, 216 50/50 wins... Nope, UWE is incapable of progress, it must be a bug, marines OP.
- When Charlie says 'I'm trying to balance it to be a great game for all players. The needs of all playstyles are considered,' - he is not being serious and really sits around all day thinking about the needs of the hardcore.
- The countless threads about how NS2 is ignoring the hardcore and balancing for the softcore do not exist. You are imagining them. It is truth that we only listen to the hardcore and only balance for them.
- Journalists never, ever ask me about E-Sports at conventions. They never ask me about it during interviews. In fact, the press is generally not interested in E-Sports and really, we just force them to talk about it during every press encounter.
...
Wait, what? This is ridiculous.
The amount of tin-foil-hat brigade in this thread truly astounds me. It is invective for the sake of entertainment, barbs to bait developers, and generally pessimistic to the point of obscenity.
<!--coloro:#FF9C00--><span style="color:#FF9C00"><!--/coloro-->@Strayan<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> you guys should make a habit of going for a coffee break between reading the forums and replying! I mean that in good humor :) Seriously though, sarcastic replies are not what you want to be doing. It's adversarial to the community. Yes, you are held to a higher standard. Just remember the forums are a wretched hive of scum and villainy. It's because it's on the internet.
<!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->>Currently the games being balanced with only competitive play in mind<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->>Currently the game is being balanced for noobs in mind<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Both nonsense.
<!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->>You realize that every patch since we stopped playing on rockdown has been alien dominated, oftentimes to a ridiculous level. There might be some exception patch to this, but I can't think of any. All the way up until build 216 marines were dominated.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I agree, but I've only been playing NS2 since b185.
<!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->>I know UWE is pushing NS2 to be an E-Sports game, so don't lie about that. You guys mention E-Sports in every Con you go to. Nothing wrong with that, just don't lie about it.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
This is basically rude, insulting and wrong. It's like a ###### trifecta.
Now, it will probably take a real forum blow up from one of us to make us think 'You know what, being different to other game developers is not worth it. We will just leave the forums forever.' If that happens, it would be sad. Until then, these forums are surely a more interesting place to be than most ;).
I believe what people are trying to tell you here (although in a very frustrating manner), is that the statistics are only an indicator that can be used in the balancing process. While it is a good sign of progress, especially after all the alien domination that went on for ages, this indicator is not proof that the game is balanced. No, you did no say that it was in the first place, but imagine playing a series of games where aliens got their arses whooped over and over, different servers whatever, by marines while aliens spend more time waiting in the spawning queue than actually playing. Imagine games where the only way to win is to either rush the marine base or get that quick 2nd hive up since without, there is no comeback.
No 2nd hive means there are no upgrades aside from the hive type itself, so its a spiral of doom going downwards. The first things marines do is just lockdown the hives right from the start of the game. Yes its part of the game, but is it skillwise or oppertunity wise equal? I believe not. With hit boxes fixed and fps going up, it can be very difficult to hold out those hives. Yes there is an indicator that the 50/50 win/loss ratio says that marines are making a comeback. Does that make the game balanced? No it does not. Does that make the game less frustrating? No it does not. Can aliens win the game? Yes they can.
I believe aliens right now have to either they play flawlessly early game and don't get killed too often until that 2nd hive goes up, avoiding the long 15-30 sec waiting queue, or they just get killed over and over, domino effect. When marines are aggressive, there is no room to ambush them as skulks, you HAVE to defend. But defending often means getting killed, and landing in that queue. Right now the marines are swarming the aliens because pushing means outnumbering aliens for the reasons stated previously. You can't rely on upgrades or abilities in this manner since this is all happening while having 1 hive early game. The moment that aliens get their 2nd hive, their chances of winning skyrocket. So basically, either you get that 2nd hive or you die, it sounds nice on paper but its very frustrating gamewise, at least imho.
It's still beta so its part of the progress, respect.
If you sense any frustration from us, it is a result of the reluctance of many posters on these forums to want to give UWE any credit for improvements we make to the game. When balance improves we get blasted because we have the audacity to make a tweet about it, if performance improves we get blasted because it hasn't improved enough. It can be difficult to keep up a calm demeanor in the face of that at all times, but I think we do a pretty good job of staying in touch with the community, and, USUALLY managing to do it in a respectful manner.
--Cory