<!--quoteo(post=1961812:date=Aug 12 2012, 03:52 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 12 2012, 03:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When people are crying in equal amounts "Marines are OP!" "Aliens are OP!" , which seems to be the case with this patch, then it means we are doing something right.
If you sense any frustration from us, it is a result of the reluctance of many posters on these forums to want to give UWE any credit for improvements we make to the game. When balance improves we get blasted because we have the audacity to make a tweet about it, if performance improves we get blasted because it hasn't improved enough. It can be difficult to keep up a calm demeanor in the face of that at all times, but I think we do a pretty good job of staying in touch with the community, and, USUALLY managing to do it in a respectful manner.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was going to hop in the thread to say the same thing. I have heard from a lot of very good players that marines are op and also that aliens are op. I haven't been able to decide, but I am leaning towards marines - but thats probably because I play on a server with a bunch of very good shooters. The fact that there is no resounding voice for one side says a lot to me.
Now, that lerk change sounds fantastic.
Also, I really enjoy how candid you guys are with us and reach out like regular people. Most devs in other games that I've been a part of would hop in a thread and post a copy/paste post about how our information is very valuable to them and oh yes, of course we are listening! and so on. That is the most frustrating reply a customer can read as far as I'm concerned.
<!--quoteo(post=1961812:date=Aug 12 2012, 09:52 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 12 2012, 09:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When people are crying in equal amounts "Marines are OP!" "Aliens are OP!" , which seems to be the case with this patch, then it means we are doing something right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The people I have played with have pretty much refrained from calling one side OP.
<!--quoteo(post=1961821:date=Aug 13 2012, 06:01 AM:name=Shaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shaker @ Aug 13 2012, 06:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961821"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, I really enjoy how candid you guys are with us and reach out like regular people. Most devs in other games that I've been a part of would hop in a thread and post a copy/paste post about how our information is very valuable to them and oh yes, of course we are listening! and so on. That is the most frustrating reply a customer can read as far as I'm concerned.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This post made me so happy Shaker :). Being human is so much more fun than being a robot... I wish I could argue with the devs of Crysis, or Battlefield... I know I would disagree with them 90% of the time but damn it would be fun! I hope my human posts provide some enjoyment to some people.
<!--quoteo(post=1961812:date=Aug 12 2012, 12:52 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 12 2012, 12:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you sense any frustration from us, it is a result of the reluctance of many posters on these forums to want to give UWE any credit for improvements we make to the game. When balance improves we get blasted because we have the audacity to make a tweet about it, if performance improves we get blasted because it hasn't improved enough. It can be difficult to keep up a calm demeanor in the face of that at all times, but I think we do a pretty good job of staying in touch with the community, and, USUALLY managing to do it in a respectful manner.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I only have to say I hope you realize that the majority of players don't post much if all on the forums because they are busy enjoying the game.
Just don't become blind by people who say everything is bad (pessimism) or everything is good (optimism). The truth is inbetween and people just state their opinion. Do with it what you want. I got my money's worth out of this game already but you still have to sell it to others.
<!--quoteo(post=1961812:date=Aug 12 2012, 09:52 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 12 2012, 09:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When people are crying in equal amounts "Marines are OP!" "Aliens are OP!" , which seems to be the case with this patch, then it means we are doing something right.
If you sense any frustration from us, it is a result of the reluctance of many posters on these forums to want to give UWE any credit for improvements we make to the game. When balance improves we get blasted because we have the audacity to make a tweet about it, if performance improves we get blasted because it hasn't improved enough. It can be difficult to keep up a calm demeanor in the face of that at all times, but I think we do a pretty good job of staying in touch with the community, and, USUALLY managing to do it in a respectful manner.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think a lot people have already said that it's a lot better now, than before. A lot great posts in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119964" target="_blank">Natural Selection 2 News Update - NS2 Build 216 changelog</a>. As I said earlier, my only concern is that currently the 50/50 statistics is based of the pub statistics, those are extremely rough. Simply because of all the different variables.
And don't lie to me Cory. Being a software engineer my self, I know how protective you grow over what you have made, and how small problems can have great technical difficulty. I think everyone in this business feel the whole 'do it your self then' at times ^.- I know I do.
Edit: Further being one of the long haulers here, whenever I think there's optimization problems I think back to the alpha builds, then it's not as mad anymore (in particular the pesky sound-loop bug :I)
<!--quoteo(post=1961735:date=Aug 12 2012, 01:14 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Aug 12 2012, 01:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We will be swapping Lerk spores and spikes in 217 this week.
And while it seems impossible for me to communicate: we do not "prefer" pub nor competitive play. The needs of both styles must be balanced, but this is one game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Christ am I the only one that thinks spikes are a waste of time? They're too inefficient compared to bite to actually be worthwhile, and you usually end up not doing any real damage.
The most useful thing about lerks is their mobility coupled with bite. Spore was kind of a cherry on top.
This is coming from a lerk player that pretty commonly went 30-40 kills and 2-5 deaths as a lerk in 215. Never using spikes. Spikes are not useful.
<!--quoteo(post=1961851:date=Aug 12 2012, 10:36 PM:name=Kola)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kola @ Aug 12 2012, 10:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961851"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think a lot people have already said that it's a lot better now, than before. A lot great posts in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119964" target="_blank">Natural Selection 2 News Update - NS2 Build 216 changelog</a>. As I said earlier, my only concern is that currently the 50/50 statistics is based of the pub statistics, those are extremely rough. Simply because of all the different variables.
And don't lie to me Cory. Being a software engineer my self, I know how protective you grow over what you have made, and how small problems can have great technical difficulty. I think everyone in this business feel the whole 'do it your self then' at times ^.- I know I do.
Edit: Further being one of the long haulers here, whenever I think there's optimization problems I think back to the alpha builds, then it's not as mad anymore (in particular the pesky sound-loop bug :I)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just had a game where somebody was spamming that the game is balanced now because of those statistics, while whooping alien arses. So yeah, those statistics really don't mean that much, its an indicator, nothing more. I think there is a bit too much emphasis on those numbers and it pisses some people off.
<!--quoteo(post=1961858:date=Aug 12 2012, 10:42 PM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Aug 12 2012, 10:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961858"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Christ am I the only one that thinks spikes are a waste of time? They're too inefficient compared to bite to actually be worthwhile, and you usually end up not doing any real damage.
The most useful thing about lerks is their mobility coupled with bite. Spore was kind of a cherry on top.
This is coming from a lerk player that pretty commonly went 30-40 kills and 2-5 deaths as a lerk in 215. Never using spikes. Spikes are not useful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I use spikes only against shotgunners, otherwise bite + mobility. This is also coming from a player who lerks alot and does a pretty good job at it. :) I'm not sure if the swap will be an improvement or not, gas is good for retreating and tight corridors so I think I'll miss it. We'll see !
At least spikes will give a better amount of damage against buildings than bite. Not the lerk's role I know... but it has its advantages. Bite is useless vs buildings. :)
<!--quoteo(post=1961863:date=Aug 12 2012, 04:47 PM:name=Keldorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keldorn @ Aug 12 2012, 04:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961863"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I use spikes only against shotgunners, otherwise bite + mobility. This is also coming from a player who lerks alot and does a pretty good job at it. :) I'm not sure if the swap will be an improvement or not, gas is good for retreating and tight corridors so I think I'll miss it. We'll see !
At least spikes will give a better amount of damage against buildings than bite. Not the lerk's role I know... but it has its advantages. Bite is useless vs buildings. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's perhaps useful against shotties but against them im usually doing quick hit and runs. if you're fast enough and attack with at least 1-2 other aliens you can usually get in, do damage and get out before the marines have a chance to really get a bead on you.
The only thing a lerk spiking down a building is doing is wasting time that should be spent harassing players. I am definitely going to miss spores over the near useless spikes. Just another alien nerf to me. Why the devs would make this decision I have no clue, its almost like they didn't play the class and came up with the decision anyways...
<!--quoteo(post=1961812:date=Aug 12 2012, 07:52 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 12 2012, 07:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When balance improves we get blasted because we have the audacity to make a tweet about it,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem was equating balance with 50/50 winratio, in a quite unbalanced build (leap at 1 min). I don't think anybody would complain about the winratio being 50/50.
I've seen some games were the wrong winning team is displayed ("aliens win") but I have no idea if it's sent or only a display problem.
I think the reaction to the tweet was mostly the alarm at the apparent narrowness of the measure of balance. Clearly with a tweet being limited to 140 chars, Charlie was never going to write a detailed essay on how balance is improving and how when using stats for feedback all the considerations he makes about about long vs short games, the impact of ragequitters, stalemates, crashes, team stacking etcetera etcetera. Of course as someone who is fairly invested in this community, I <b>trust</b> that it is a much more thoughtful process than could be explained in 140 characters. Yet I'll admit that I mocked that tweet in the ready room "don't worry guize, balance is k now, flayra tweeted." I still find that pretty chuckle worthy.. hehe. I'd chalk that one up as a lesson about social media backfiring. That's what happened, whether it was fair or not.
As for why the community doesn't giving positive feedback on balance... Well first of all it's a basic expectation about the game. It's a somewhat thankless job, just like optimisation. Only those who are really invested or close to the process make comments about that kind of stuff.
Secondly, the bulk of the community is more attuned to <i>detecting change</i> than <i>evaluating balance</i>. I'd argue that even those who carefully consider balance from both side probably can't see balance improvements over 2, 3, maybe 4 patches. Balance changes have an asynchronous uptake. Even a small change can create big balance ripples, and it takes time to reach a steady state. You make a change, a player doesn't even realise until they get around to playing that certain unit, in that certain situation, then they realise the implications, then they devise ways to exploit it and so on.
What I can say is that balance has improved since b185 and the trend is good. There was a long term dip around gorilla. That's about as detailed as I could be. I consciously try not to put too much emphasis on balance until the exo is out; all features are in; and the wacky changes settle down. Like, it would be pointless to praise/critisise balance in this build because of parasite, hive sight and the tech point overlay.
Anyway, thanks for caring about the balance and the optimisations. <3
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1961874:date=Aug 12 2012, 02:06 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Aug 12 2012, 02:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961874"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem was equating balance with 50/50 winratio, in a quite unbalanced build (leap at 1 min). I don't think anybody would complain about the winratio being 50/50.
I've seen some games were the wrong winning team is displayed ("aliens win") but I have no idea if it's sent or only a display problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Supposedly its just a spectator bug. (meaning if you are alive it should display correctly) We've been having a lot of odd spectating bugs.
<!--quoteo(post=1961753:date=Aug 12 2012, 01:10 PM:name=Mr.Greedy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr.Greedy @ Aug 12 2012, 01:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yesterday, aliens lost the game but endscreen says "Aliens win" o_O<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
About the 50/50 win rate, I've had 3-4 games so far in the 8-9 games that I've played since b216 went live that have said alien's won even though it was a clear marine victory. Don't know if this is just me or if these are even properly registered on the UWE statistics, but if these are being improperly registered, this could be skewing the win rate stats.
This has happened both while dead and alive so I don't think it's a spectating bug.
<!--quoteo(post=1961877:date=Aug 12 2012, 09:09 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Aug 12 2012, 09:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961877"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Supposedly its just a spectator bug. (meaning if you are alive it should display correctly) We've been having a lot of odd spectating bugs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I had that bug in my last game and i was alive. We were playing Turtle if that matters.
I personally feel that obtaining a 50/50 win ratio is a perfect indicator of balance. I don't quite understand why people wouldn't accept that as the final decided as to whether or not a game is balanced.
However, I do not believe the statistics which indicate that a 50/50 win ratio emerged after 1000 games are correct. I don't believe they are even half correct. Honestly I think it is closer to 75/25. But, I am human and therefore my perception is shaped by my experience. Maybe I just got unlucky. Of course I don't think that, but its possible.
<!--quoteo(post=1961735:date=Aug 12 2012, 01:14 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Aug 12 2012, 01:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We will be swapping Lerk spores and spikes in 217 this week.
And while it seems impossible for me to communicate: we do not "prefer" pub nor competitive play. The needs of both styles must be balanced, but this is one game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Will it become ranged spores then since it requires a second hive? Or will it still continue to fall off into the abyss of uselessness late game?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I personally feel that obtaining a 50/50 win ratio is a perfect indicator of balance. I don't quite understand why people wouldn't accept that as the final decided as to whether or not a game is balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Try to imagine some radical changes that would completely break the game but still give you 50/50 win ration.
First time posting on forum, I'm not a big on forum posting. I had to register for this one. Just had to say I've been playing NS since the first one almost as soon as it was put out. I randomly did a search to see if a 2nd one was in the making and it was! I immediately purchased and began playing about 4 months ago or so. I think you guys are doing a fantastic job on the game. I can see you're all trying your damned hardest to make a good playable game for both sides, and it shows. As far as one side more OP to another side, I believe its pretty damn close and when things like exosuits come out and etc etc I'm sure things will be tweeked even more. Ive found teams are really only OP depending on players. Especially since the massive onslaught of new players, a lot of people tend to join up with people who already know how to play and have been playing for a long time. I play mostly on All-In servers because of the forced random team mod that can be voted on, I think that helps a great deal even though it doesn't ALWAYS work. So, in my 2 cents here, the most OP team is the one that's most organized. The only way to make the games fair all the time would be to split up the veteran players.. and that's the same in any game. Winner goes to the best and the brightest. But Just had to say, keep up the amazing work! Such a small team to make an amazing sequel to an equally amazing game deserves a lot of praise.
<!--quoteo(post=1961891:date=Aug 12 2012, 11:26 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Aug 12 2012, 11:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961891"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Try to imagine some radical changes that would completely break the game but still give you 50/50 win ration.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1961889:date=Aug 12 2012, 05:22 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Aug 12 2012, 05:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961889"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I personally feel that obtaining a 50/50 win ratio is a perfect indicator of balance. I don't quite understand why people wouldn't accept that as the final decided as to whether or not a game is balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because we don't know how those numbers were achieved, which makes it a poor indicator of whether this game is balanced or not.
Do you want to include a games where teams where completely lopsided (8 v 4 teams) in the calculation? Or games where they ended in under 2-3 minutes by one team constantly bum rushing the cc/hive?
Games like those completely skew the numbers and makes it harder to prove anything. If the numbers were broken down by how long each game lasted, total number of players on each side, etc and then broken down further, we would be able to see if this game was truly "balanced". Which it's not. While both sides might have decent chance at winning depending on how the game plays, as performance improves and further changes to nerfing aliens hit, this game is becoming heavily marine sided. Edit: I say this because the base alien game structure is badly structured and problematic. While it might have worked in NS1, NS2's gameplay is completely different which makes aliens tech system obsolete.
<!--quoteo(post=1961902:date=Aug 12 2012, 04:43 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Aug 12 2012, 04:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961902"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you want to include a games where teams where completely lopsided (8 v 4 teams) in the calculation? Or games where they ended in under 2-3 minutes by one team constantly bum rushing the cc/hive?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But going with statistics 8v4 could happen for both sides. It's not favored by one race, so it doesn't change anything unless you can prove that every 8vs4 game is 8 aliens vs 4 marines for example.
The same with the rushing, if it's done equally by both teams it doesn't change anything.
<!--quoteo(post=1961905:date=Aug 12 2012, 05:48 PM:name=Krull)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Krull @ Aug 12 2012, 05:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961905"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But going with statistics 8v4 could happen for both sides. It's not favored by one race, so it doesn't change anything unless you can prove that every 8vs4 game is 8 aliens vs 4 marines for example.
The same with the rushing, if it's done equally by both teams it doesn't change anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you seriously trying to justify the use of bad data in a statistic on whether or not the game is balanced? Just because both sides can do it? Wow.
<!--quoteo(post=1961911:date=Aug 12 2012, 05:55 PM:name=Krull)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Krull @ Aug 12 2012, 05:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961911"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then be specific, what in this build altered the win ratio in a bad way to "appear" even while it actually is not?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point is that there is no way to tell if it's balanced by looking at a 50/50 winrate. There are so many explanations of scenarios that can produce a 50/50 win rate while also being considered unbalanced for players. It's simply not enough information to make a conclusion either way.
Comments
If you sense any frustration from us, it is a result of the reluctance of many posters on these forums to want to give UWE any credit for improvements we make to the game. When balance improves we get blasted because we have the audacity to make a tweet about it, if performance improves we get blasted because it hasn't improved enough. It can be difficult to keep up a calm demeanor in the face of that at all times, but I think we do a pretty good job of staying in touch with the community, and, USUALLY managing to do it in a respectful manner.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was going to hop in the thread to say the same thing. I have heard from a lot of very good players that marines are op and also that aliens are op. I haven't been able to decide, but I am leaning towards marines - but thats probably because I play on a server with a bunch of very good shooters. The fact that there is no resounding voice for one side says a lot to me.
Now, that lerk change sounds fantastic.
Also, I really enjoy how candid you guys are with us and reach out like regular people. Most devs in other games that I've been a part of would hop in a thread and post a copy/paste post about how our information is very valuable to them and oh yes, of course we are listening! and so on. That is the most frustrating reply a customer can read as far as I'm concerned.
The people I have played with have pretty much refrained from calling one side OP.
This post made me so happy Shaker :). Being human is so much more fun than being a robot... I wish I could argue with the devs of Crysis, or Battlefield... I know I would disagree with them 90% of the time but damn it would be fun! I hope my human posts provide some enjoyment to some people.
I only have to say I hope you realize that the majority of players don't post much if all on the forums because they are busy enjoying the game.
If you sense any frustration from us, it is a result of the reluctance of many posters on these forums to want to give UWE any credit for improvements we make to the game. When balance improves we get blasted because we have the audacity to make a tweet about it, if performance improves we get blasted because it hasn't improved enough. It can be difficult to keep up a calm demeanor in the face of that at all times, but I think we do a pretty good job of staying in touch with the community, and, USUALLY managing to do it in a respectful manner.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think a lot people have already said that it's a lot better now, than before. A lot great posts in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119964" target="_blank">Natural Selection 2 News Update - NS2 Build 216 changelog</a>. As I said earlier, my only concern is that currently the 50/50 statistics is based of the pub statistics, those are extremely rough. Simply because of all the different variables.
And don't lie to me Cory. Being a software engineer my self, I know how protective you grow over what you have made, and how small problems can have great technical difficulty. I think everyone in this business feel the whole 'do it your self then' at times ^.- I know I do.
Edit: Further being one of the long haulers here, whenever I think there's optimization problems I think back to the alpha builds, then it's not as mad anymore (in particular the pesky sound-loop bug :I)
And while it seems impossible for me to communicate: we do not "prefer" pub nor competitive play. The needs of both styles must be balanced, but this is one game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Christ am I the only one that thinks spikes are a waste of time? They're too inefficient compared to bite to actually be worthwhile, and you usually end up not doing any real damage.
The most useful thing about lerks is their mobility coupled with bite. Spore was kind of a cherry on top.
This is coming from a lerk player that pretty commonly went 30-40 kills and 2-5 deaths as a lerk in 215. Never using spikes. Spikes are not useful.
And don't lie to me Cory. Being a software engineer my self, I know how protective you grow over what you have made, and how small problems can have great technical difficulty. I think everyone in this business feel the whole 'do it your self then' at times ^.- I know I do.
Edit: Further being one of the long haulers here, whenever I think there's optimization problems I think back to the alpha builds, then it's not as mad anymore (in particular the pesky sound-loop bug :I)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just had a game where somebody was spamming that the game is balanced now because of those statistics, while whooping alien arses. So yeah, those statistics really don't mean that much, its an indicator, nothing more. I think there is a bit too much emphasis on those numbers and it pisses some people off.
The most useful thing about lerks is their mobility coupled with bite. Spore was kind of a cherry on top.
This is coming from a lerk player that pretty commonly went 30-40 kills and 2-5 deaths as a lerk in 215. Never using spikes. Spikes are not useful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I use spikes only against shotgunners, otherwise bite + mobility. This is also coming from a player who lerks alot and does a pretty good job at it. :) I'm not sure if the swap will be an improvement or not, gas is good for retreating and tight corridors so I think I'll miss it. We'll see !
At least spikes will give a better amount of damage against buildings than bite. Not the lerk's role I know... but it has its advantages. Bite is useless vs buildings. :)
At least spikes will give a better amount of damage against buildings than bite. Not the lerk's role I know... but it has its advantages. Bite is useless vs buildings. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's perhaps useful against shotties but against them im usually doing quick hit and runs. if you're fast enough and attack with at least 1-2 other aliens you can usually get in, do damage and get out before the marines have a chance to really get a bead on you.
The only thing a lerk spiking down a building is doing is wasting time that should be spent harassing players. I am definitely going to miss spores over the near useless spikes. Just another alien nerf to me. Why the devs would make this decision I have no clue, its almost like they didn't play the class and came up with the decision anyways...
The problem was equating balance with 50/50 winratio, in a quite unbalanced build (leap at 1 min). I don't think anybody would complain about the winratio being 50/50.
I've seen some games were the wrong winning team is displayed ("aliens win") but I have no idea if it's sent or only a display problem.
As for why the community doesn't giving positive feedback on balance...
Well first of all it's a basic expectation about the game. It's a somewhat thankless job, just like optimisation. Only those who are really invested or close to the process make comments about that kind of stuff.
Secondly, the bulk of the community is more attuned to <i>detecting change</i> than <i>evaluating balance</i>. I'd argue that even those who carefully consider balance from both side probably can't see balance improvements over 2, 3, maybe 4 patches. Balance changes have an asynchronous uptake. Even a small change can create big balance ripples, and it takes time to reach a steady state. You make a change, a player doesn't even realise until they get around to playing that certain unit, in that certain situation, then they realise the implications, then they devise ways to exploit it and so on.
What I can say is that balance has improved since b185 and the trend is good. There was a long term dip around gorilla. That's about as detailed as I could be. I consciously try not to put too much emphasis on balance until the exo is out; all features are in; and the wacky changes settle down. Like, it would be pointless to praise/critisise balance in this build because of parasite, hive sight and the tech point overlay.
Anyway, thanks for caring about the balance and the optimisations. <3
I've seen some games were the wrong winning team is displayed ("aliens win") but I have no idea if it's sent or only a display problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Supposedly its just a spectator bug. (meaning if you are alive it should display correctly)
We've been having a lot of odd spectating bugs.
About the 50/50 win rate, I've had 3-4 games so far in the 8-9 games that I've played since b216 went live that have said alien's won even though it was a clear marine victory. Don't know if this is just me or if these are even properly registered on the UWE statistics, but if these are being improperly registered, this could be skewing the win rate stats.
This has happened both while dead and alive so I don't think it's a spectating bug.
We've been having a lot of odd spectating bugs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I had that bug in my last game and i was alive. We were playing Turtle if that matters.
*edit, the whole team experienced it.
Any additional info will help, thanks again
However, I do not believe the statistics which indicate that a 50/50 win ratio emerged after 1000 games are correct. I don't believe they are even half correct. Honestly I think it is closer to 75/25. But, I am human and therefore my perception is shaped by my experience. Maybe I just got unlucky. Of course I don't think that, but its possible.
And while it seems impossible for me to communicate: we do not "prefer" pub nor competitive play. The needs of both styles must be balanced, but this is one game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Will it become ranged spores then since it requires a second hive? Or will it still continue to fall off into the abyss of uselessness late game?
Try to imagine some radical changes that would completely break the game but still give you 50/50 win ration.
But Just had to say, keep up the amazing work! Such a small team to make an amazing sequel to an equally amazing game deserves a lot of praise.
P.s I hate those red cc/hive waypoints :)
I can think of many, what's your point?
Because we don't know how those numbers were achieved, which makes it a poor indicator of whether this game is balanced or not.
Do you want to include a games where teams where completely lopsided (8 v 4 teams) in the calculation? Or games where they ended in under 2-3 minutes by one team constantly bum rushing the cc/hive?
Games like those completely skew the numbers and makes it harder to prove anything. If the numbers were broken down by how long each game lasted, total number of players on each side, etc and then broken down further, we would be able to see if this game was truly "balanced". Which it's not. While both sides might have decent chance at winning depending on how the game plays, as performance improves and further changes to nerfing aliens hit, this game is becoming heavily marine sided. Edit: I say this because the base alien game structure is badly structured and problematic. While it might have worked in NS1, NS2's gameplay is completely different which makes aliens tech system obsolete.
Find a definition of balance that define all these broken game state as unbalanced.
Now you've got a useful definition of balance.
But going with statistics 8v4 could happen for both sides. It's not favored by one race, so it doesn't change anything unless you can prove that every 8vs4 game is 8 aliens vs 4 marines for example.
The same with the rushing, if it's done equally by both teams it doesn't change anything.
The same with the rushing, if it's done equally by both teams it doesn't change anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you seriously trying to justify the use of bad data in a statistic on whether or not the game is balanced? Just because both sides can do it? Wow.
The point is that there is no way to tell if it's balanced by looking at a 50/50 winrate. There are so many explanations of scenarios that can produce a 50/50 win rate while also being considered unbalanced for players. It's simply not enough information to make a conclusion either way.