Competitive vs Public version
Tweadle
Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Members, NS2 Map Tester
Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Members, NS2 Map Tester
So are there any plans to strip out all of the useless stuff and create a version worth playing competitively? I was wondering whether that was going to be large enough support for such a version and how far people would actually be willing to go as it would definitely affect my decision to play or not. If there was, I thought I could start a list of what might be changed/stripped here.
Comments
I personally love watching both CPM and vanilla Q3/QL play, but the average viewer and player will probably not even have heard of it.
I could be wrong and this could actually work really well, but I doubt it.
There is a lot of discussion to be done, but the first thing to be discussed would be how things should de discussed and how decision are taken. Politics first, content later.
I would like a pro-mode check box that removes all the red hives/cc's and waypoints/build this icons
It's hard to convince new potential competitive players to join up on a mod that isn't much better, but very different from vanilla NS2.
For now, I think any "promod" should stick to balancing LUA numbers server side and not reworking mechanics. This allows you to fix things like carapace or increase the cost of jetpacks to 15. If population greatly increases then we should look into carving out niche competitive groups via mods.
I'm not sure about the small community argument. A good mod makes the community grow, and if we don't think we can do a good mod there is no point starting one in the first place. Doing something in general is better for the community than doing nothing, specially if people can easily get involved, learn something and feel useful. Growth can be dopped by marketing as well; slick graphics, casts, etc.
Server owner are also very important obviously.
This should be cause: gamemechanic is wrong (Bilebomb op for example) or better teamplay in the end. Who knows.
As most of the competitive players think that KD/R is the only skill, im sure these players want to remove all static defence for example (hydras, clogs, turrets).
Maybe bilebomb should be removed too, cause you need no skill to fight vs static structures like arms lab or armorys.
You cannot remove these things serverside only.
Ultimately, I would love to get rid of more important things like the powergrid but I can see where this could start taking us. I could start a poll, something along the lines of;
1) No changes
2) Aesthetic changes only
3) Aesthetic and Balance Changes
4) Aesthetic, Balance and Mechanic Changes
Reasonable enough? I'm making a few assumptions for clarity's sake (i.e. that people who endorse mechanic changes automatically endorse balance changes too). Obviously, it's important to interpret the results carefully as it's susceptible for fan-bombing but I think it could still be of some value.
The NS2b comparison is kinda bad because even we knew the fade blink was bad, just that we thought it was better than vanilla bad and they thought the reverse.
Should the engine improve like I hope it may, I do plan to work/help work on a NS2 mod. What that mod will be is still up in the air as I am waiting to see how NS2 turns out.
1 Drastic changes to the game
2 Removing non competitive features (visual impairing / blatantly OP things)
The first splits the community and is only really needed in extreme circumstances. The second is much better, it means public players can transition into comp play very easy without having to relearn the game.
If the game is still so bad at release, that it needs a competitive mod to fix it, it isn't going to be successful enough to sustain a competitive community anyway, nevermind a competitive mod community.
"Features" like the "low health warning", and other issues Tweadle mentioned, are enough to make me froth at the mouth, and those aren't even close to being the biggest problems currently afflicting gameplay.
I'm genuinly worried that come release, we'll see a larger scale repeat of the "Total Biscuit fever": Lots and lots of players for a few weeks and then suddenly we're back to tumbleweed mode.
1 Drastic changes to the game
2 Removing non competitive features (visual impairing / blatantly OP things)
The first splits the community and is only really needed in extreme circumstances. The second is much better, it means public players can transition into comp play very easy without having to relearn the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I'd definitely agree with this.
The biggest question is, how much change is really needed, it would have to be a ongoing project.
But there are definitely quite a few simple changes that would improve the overall feel of the game a lot.
Sadly as much as I would want to avoid splitting the community with a mod I think the current gameplay is simply not addictive enough to keep players around for long and it will be needed in the long run.
100% agree, but there are exceptions. COD4 was a big one... it had multiple different promod's over its competitive existence. But it had a player base of millions of people...
Forgive the cynicism, but the point is legitimate.
Forgive the cynicism, but the point is legitimate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that the performance is definitely not acceptable, however from experience I know that players stay around if the game has great gameplay value. Natural selection 1 had one of the best and loyal communities that you can find and you will definitely be seeing many of these players coming back when ns2 is released. Its very important that both new and old players will feel how good the game play is and feel that the game has a chance for greatness. If that does not happen then all the negative points will be high lighted and will probably push players away.
I think most players know that there is something special about this game. This game not only unique for today's standard, it also attracts a lot of attention which naturally lures new players into it. The game is perfect for all levels of play whether you are just playing fps games casually or competively. But the most important aspect of it is it's huge spectate value. That's the key thing that fps game are lacking the most. One of the biggest reasons why many of the old competitive fps games are not as popular as starcraft today is because its usually not that fun to watch fps matches. Even though fps games do bring more team element on the table which should more interesting than 1v1 they still never have nailed the part with the audience. I think this is natural selection true e-sport potential, team based competitive game that evolves. It would sadden me if that potential would go to waste. The reason why I would be willing to put time into developing a mod(if needed) is because I know its potential, even with such a large hurdle in the way.
Right now I think the game suffers from to many incomplete or underdeveloped mechanics(features). Many of these are small issues that can be smoothed out before release to make the game feel better.
However I think some of the core of the game would need some adjustment before the game would truly shine competitively and I doubt there will be enough time for that before release. However if the core audience can enjoy the game at release the competitive scene can wait 2-4 weeks before going all out.
I would say performance and gameplay go hand in hand, in NS certainly. I guess one could imagine games where mediocre performance would not be that detrimental to any competitive-scene. NS however is very fast-paced high-stakes (even the gimped NS2), and split-second moments really matter, the death of a lifeform could mean the win\loss of a round, the death of a marine could mean the difference between a PG or no PG at a hive under construction. Clans will be really put off if they start losing rounds due to them fighting NS2's poor performance\hitreg instead of the actual opposing team's skill. Either way it's probably wise to wait around a bit longer and see how v1.0 will shape up.
Thats not to say that a mod couldn't become popular, but from what I have seen from HL2 mods the days of modding are over, and its all about AAA titles released annually.
I may not have put enough emphasis on the importance of performance earlier but I agree that its a huge deal for the game. I doubt we will have stable 60fps performance with spot on hitreg on release. However with promises in the air to increase performance as development goes along(even after release) the bet would have to be keeping the players interested til the engine reaches acceptable performance.
If the game is fun enough a early competitive scene(even hampered by performance) can be formed and maintained for few months. However if performance does not go up by that time the scene won't be able to reach higher skill ceiling and wither away because of frustration(similar thing happened in the beta, but for other reasons).
But it would probably be even worse if the majority of the players that buy ns2 are not able to enjoy the game in the first month. While they do manage to get acceptable performance for average computers today that allows players to enjoy the game, they will be able keep their playerbase. That would give them time to get performance even higher. Of course the gameplay value will have to be good enough so players will stick around.
The competitive scene can wait a month before really starting up. Probably not much longer than that since one of the game selling point was competitive gaming. Also it is very helpful to developers to have a core group that not only shows how deep the game is, but also as a selling platform as a fun game to watch.
In the end if the performance does not improve enough in 3-4 months time it will brake the game no matter how good the game is. If the performance is not good enough for average computer on given release date, I would try to delay the release date if possible. No reason to waste this much work for a weak release if avoidable.
*Hopefully we will see major performance improvements before 1.0.
<!--quoteo(post=1965398:date=Aug 20 2012, 11:07 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Aug 20 2012, 11:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965398"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally Grissi thats where I think you are wrong. Most if not all the NS1 players I talk to will most likely not try out NS2 on release, or for a while. Most tell me how I have wasted tons of my time with all the stuff that I have done to try and help NS2, and that they do not think the game will be anything like NS1 on release, or in the near future. There was a time when I disagreed with them, and still thought that this game could be made great competitively like its predecessor was... But I have started to realize that NS2 will most likely not be that game, and the direction they are going with the game seems to confirm that... That wont stop the game from being successful or even largely successful, but just not the kind of game that most of those players want to play, and not the kind of game that will have a large competitive community. You can mod the game 1000 different ways and IMO it will not matter, it wont attract those players because its still based on NS2 at the core, and the popularity or widespread acceptance of it will never happen like it could to a game developed from the ground up as a NS1 competitive sequel.
Thats not to say that a mod couldn't become popular, but from what I have seen from HL2 mods the days of modding are over, and its all about AAA titles released annually.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I'm not someone who is afraid of being wrong and I may be putting things down bit to optimistic. I might be hoping to much that this game will work out in the end even though it does not look like it.
I do know quite a few natural selection players and I agree they will probably not pay much heed to the natural selection release. However if a spark of improvements would arrive I would definitely mention that to them which would get their interest, It would probably be similar in your case Dragon, if you would see this game get much more appealing or know of a game mode that showed some promise you would probably mention that to the players that you know.
About wasting time I kinda thought the same for awhile but with the experience and knowing what I was trying to support I feel it was worth it. Even if it ends up not working out I at least tried to put it forward.
But I do agree with the points above that the chances are very slim. Only having old ns1 players would not be enough to make this game really successful, it would need a new playerbase. The promod would probably end up very differently from the original so it will create a clear split between the two making it hard to get enough players into it initially.
The question is in the end are enough people willing to go for it and see where it leads to. It will be a lot of work, performance might never go far enough for it to last. But maybe with effort and little bit of luck it would be possible to get a working solid game with a fair amount of players. Nothing close to a e-sport level but that is not requirement to enjoy a game.
Otherwise the minimum required for a more radical mod is some teams that are willing to playtest it (or at least 12+ people), and some servers.
Ever heard of Day Z? I don't think modding days are over, I just think there aren't many multiplayer mods that have decent enough gameplay to become popular. If someone brought out a HL2 mod tomorrow that was decent then you can bet your ass it would be all over reddit etc. in a flash.
IMO UWE made a mistake by trying to make their own engine. I think they should have went with the source engine and ported over ns1 to have an ns1 source to begin building upon. This would have allowed them to make sure the movement etc. was very similar to ns1 and they would have been able to compare the changes directly. If they had stuck with the source engine then by this point in time ns2 2.0 or 3.0 would be released and everyone would be playing with 100fps on 60 tickrate servers. I know hindsight is 20/20 though. Maybe if they can improve performance then the modability of the engine will pay off.
You can look back and say UWE made tons of mistakes and its all their fault.. but thats not what this thread is about. They made the choices they made for reasons, some which we may never understand.. and for better or worse are making NS2 the way they want to. This thread is mainly about the viability of a competitive mod for NS2.
Otherwise the minimum required for a more radical mod is some teams that are willing to playtest it (or at least 12+ people), and some servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There will be (is) an option to disable it, my guess is the HuD elements can still be modified (crosshairs and such)
There is more than just the HUD though. Think view-blurring, bobbing, red flashing, sound-muffling on low-health and assorted other crap (haven't played for quite a while, but I hear even more has been added in the mean time).