ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1966622:date=Aug 25 2012, 02:23 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 25 2012, 02:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966622"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, Spark does best at doing nothing at all? Not exactly the hallmark of an engine, I'm sure you will agree. NS1 was pretty darn heavy on systems, mainly due to it pushing HL1, a game 4 years dated and with an already slightly older lighting-system when it was released, to levels of polish not yet seen in HL1-modding, and of course also pulling off new things that HL1 wasn't at all designed for. Spark on the other hand is (supposedly) built from the ground up with NS2 in mind, so surely one should expect it to be able to cope without issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know one big area spark is an improvement over gldsrc/source: mapping. I can't tell you how nice it is not to have to compile maps. Using Mendasp's overview generator/NS2 launch system, I can go from creating a new room to testing it (with proper minimap) in seconds. Add in not having to track down every leak and the difference is night and day.
That being said, spark is missing quite a few features/functions that are in world hammer/hammer. However, its just a matter of time, rather than that they can't, be added and the basic system is functional enough to make pretty good maps (even if it is a bit time consuming).
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
Spark wasn't built for NS2. Spark is an engine Max has been designing for years. It has been used for NS2, because any attempt to use the source engine was held back by the amount of code that needs to be removed from the engine, because it is completely irrelevant to NS2, things like Facial Animation technology etc. Source would have required such a re-write, that it was easier, quicker, and ultimately a better solution to complete the spark engine and use it for the game.
It was more because of the hassle that working with Source would cause them, rather than spark being specifically designed for NS2.
As an FPS engine it is brilliant, but NS will always be too much for any engine it is built on, such is the nature of the game. You have 2 games happening at the same time, interacting with each other. I realise NS2 will not be the best game that comes out on the Spark engine, but do not rubbish a very good engine, just because it can't handle a game which could not be handled well by any engine it is ever made on....
<!--quoteo(post=1966691:date=Aug 25 2012, 07:04 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Aug 25 2012, 07:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966691"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spark wasn't built for NS2. Spark is an engine Max has been designing for years. It has been used for NS2, because any attempt to use the source engine was held back by the amount of code that needs to be removed from the engine, because it is completely irrelevant to NS2, things like Facial Animation technology etc. Source would have required such a re-write, that it was easier, quicker, and ultimately a better solution to complete the spark engine and use it for the game.
It was more because of the hassle that working with Source would cause them, rather than spark being specifically designed for NS2.
As an FPS engine it is brilliant, but NS will always be too much for any engine it is built on, such is the nature of the game. You have 2 games happening at the same time, interacting with each other. I realise NS2 will not be the best game that comes out on the Spark engine, but do not rubbish a very good engine, just because it can't handle a game which could not be handled well by any engine it is ever made on....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you say is ridiculous. As far as we know, Max had experimented with building his own engine in his free time prior to NS2 development. When UWE was unhappy with Source, he took those pieces and started to build a proper engine especially for NS2. This is now Spark. If you don't believe me read the blog post from 2006 or so where they first mention building an engine from the ground. How you can call the engine brilliant, when it struggles to run the one game it was designed for, is beyond me.
To get back on topic, I share Fana's pessimism: If the game is not good enough to attract and sustain a decently sized competitive community on it's own, I don't see it going anywhere in that area. Still, I would love to get rid of all the "immersive" crap, creating a mod for that alone would be great.
<!--quoteo(post=1966674:date=Aug 25 2012, 11:06 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 25 2012, 11:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966674"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I apologize if I seem harsh, but I feel it is a necessary evil. My hostility is not directed to your person, but rather the type of poster you represent. You would be mistaken to think you are the first person wishing to in some way "helping improve both this game, and the quality of this discussion" by introducing purely tabula rasa opinion. On the contrary, it happens with alarming frequency on these forums and it is usually waste of time for all parties concerned.
Rather than ask us to educate you, you should get your own experience, by playing the game and discussing with your teammates, and then post your opinions based on that experience. Until you do that, your posts have little value and replying to them is not worth the time it takes.
The following is a good example of why:
I could write a lengthy reply explaining that this has been suggested before, that UWE's initial fade concept was along those lines, and why it simply doesn't work because of the implications it has on other central parts of gameplay, but it would be a waste of time: Instead of moving the discussion forward, it moves the discussion backwards, to topics that have already been discussed and concluded.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would like to think that the type of poster I represent is one who is generally well educated, and guenuinely interested in improving the game, and the quaility of the discussion. Your hostility towards me is, in my opinion, completely misplaced, and if I am to take it that you feel this way about anyone who wishes to help, then I believe you should reexamine your intentions.
I am asking you to relate to me your experiences with the game, because you are portarying yourself to be knowledgable about the game and its mechanics. If you have no intention of educating people regarding your position, then you should be wary of taking one at all.
I do not wish to seem hostile either, but I would appreciate it if you refrained from taking such an aggressive stance with <i>any</i> member of the community, not just myself, who expresses a desire to help.
You quote my comment about the Fade, and then refer to it as though I was making some suggestion about changing the mechanics of that lifeform. I made no such suggestion, merely offered that your original analysis of the Competitive environment for the alien team might be better served by more a more efficient approach to identifying problems and resolving them. I do not know what you are refering to when you talk about previous implementations of the Fade lifeform, but it has undergone many revisions since its original implementation in NS1, and I am again reticent of refering to a game in beta as being concrete in its representation of critical game mechanics.
That said, if you have a case to make along these lines, it wastes no ones time to draw attention to past discussions, particularly as a means of educating members of the community.
I do not understand why you seem to be taking the position that communicating your opinion on this matter in a clear, precise way should be at all burdensome to you. If you want to move this discussion forward, I strongly encourage you to ennumerate the things you find troublesome with the game, based on <i>your</i> experiences, so that we can discuss them in a civil, productive manner.
Finally, while we are a community of members, all of whom seem to care very deeply about the development of this game, the only way to move forward with this discussion is to create a positive discussion about <i>everyone's</i> opinion, not just my own. While my experience with NS2 in its current form is not as indepth as yours, it is not <i>my</i> opinion that really matters, nor did I ever suggest it was. Instead, I maintain that in order to better discuss the implementation of a Competitive structure for NS2, the community needs to be able to first reach a consensus regarding the state of the game as a whole first.
This isn't a tabula rasa approach, its an efficient one. The first two pages of this thread offer many references to the "inferiority" of the game engine, and the many "unnecessary" features included in the game. But no one has actually explained <i>why</i> these things negatively impact Competitive play. Sure, they are unnecessary, but as I said its a slippery slope, and if you begin a discussion about removing <i>everything</i> that might be unnecessary, you can very quickly find yourself playing pong.
Instead I'm trying to suggest that the conversation turn away from why doesn't work, or what we as individuals do not find appealing, and instead focus on those issues that we can all agree on as legitimate, game altering problems.
Your analysis about alien tactics is a good place to start, but again, sometimes finding solutions to problems isn't always about a constant march forward. Sometimes you must step back a few paces and try to look at it from a different angle, or even one you've already tried. I've already given one example regarding the implementation of the Lerk bite attack in NS1 where the Developers did exactly that. There was a problem, they tried one solution, and later went back and decided it was better to reimplement what they had originally.
If you want this discussion to be productive, maybe you should be willing to listen to outside opinions on occassion, are at least willing to reexamine your own from time to time.
Barring that, you should at least endevour to treat other members of the community with respect and courtesy.
<!--quoteo(post=1966699:date=Aug 25 2012, 01:54 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Aug 25 2012, 01:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966699"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would like to think that the type of poster I represent is one who is generally well educated, and guenuinely interested in improving the game, and the quaility of the discussion. Your hostility towards me is, in my opinion, completely misplaced, and if I am to take it that you feel this way about anyone who wishes to help, then I believe you should reexamine your intentions.
I am asking you to relate to me your experiences with the game, because you are portarying yourself to be knowledgable about the game and its mechanics. If you have no intention of educating people regarding your position, then you should be wary of taking one at all.
I do not wish to seem hostile either, but I would appreciate it if you refrained from taking such an aggressive stance with <i>any</i> member of the community, not just myself, who expresses a desire to help.
You quote my comment about the Fade, and then refer to it as though I was making some suggestion about changing the mechanics of that lifeform. I made no such suggestion, merely offered that your original analysis of the Competitive environment for the alien team might be better served by more a more efficient approach to identifying problems and resolving them. I do not know what you are refering to when you talk about previous implementations of the Fade lifeform, but it has undergone many revisions since its original implementation in NS1, and I am again reticent of refering to a game in beta as being concrete in its representation of critical game mechanics.
That said, if you have a case to make along these lines, it wastes no ones time to draw attention to past discussions, particularly as a means of educating members of the community.
I do not understand why you seem to be taking the position that communicating your opinion on this matter in a clear, precise way should be at all burdensome to you. If you want to move this discussion forward, I strongly encourage you to ennumerate the things you find troublesome with the game, based on <i>your</i> experiences, so that we can discuss them in a civil, productive manner.
Finally, while we are a community of members, all of whom seem to care very deeply about the development of this game, the only way to move forward with this discussion is to create a positive discussion about <i>everyone's</i> opinion, not just my own. While my experience with NS2 in its current form is not as indepth as yours, it is not <i>my</i> opinion that really matters, nor did I ever suggest it was. Instead, I maintain that in order to better discuss the implementation of a Competitive structure for NS2, the community needs to be able to first reach a consensus regarding the state of the game as a whole first.
This isn't a tabula rasa approach, its an efficient one. The first two pages of this thread offer many references to the "inferiority" of the game engine, and the many "unnecessary" features included in the game. But no one has actually explained <i>why</i> these things negatively impact Competitive play. Sure, they are unnecessary, but as I said its a slippery slope, and if you begin a discussion about removing <i>everything</i> that might be unnecessary, you can very quickly find yourself playing pong.
Instead I'm trying to suggest that the conversation turn away from why doesn't work, or what we as individuals do not find appealing, and instead focus on those issues that we can all agree on as legitimate, game altering problems.
Your analysis about alien tactics is a good place to start, but again, sometimes finding solutions to problems isn't always about a constant march forward. Sometimes you must step back a few paces and try to look at it from a different angle, or even one you've already tried. I've already given one example regarding the implementation of the Lerk bite attack in NS1 where the Developers did exactly that. There was a problem, they tried one solution, and later went back and decided it was better to reimplement what they had originally.
If you want this discussion to be productive, maybe you should be willing to listen to outside opinions on occassion, are at least willing to reexamine your own from time to time.
Barring that, you should at least endevour to treat other members of the community with respect and courtesy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry Red Dragon but I feel amazed how little substance you have in such large amount of text. These type of post are often the reason many good topics fell appear during the beta phase. I won't comment any more on that but I ask that you would try to keep this more on topic.
If you are interested in what are the problems many competitive players see with the game I would advice you to go chat with few of them on team speak or through steam. That's the best way to get a real feel for things, talk to the players. Even better if you can talk to both ns1 and ns2 competitive players and their feel for the game.
If you want to learn more about natural selection I would also suggest studying how all the game mechanics come together in both ns1 and ns2 to truly see the difference. One of the things to notice is that ns2 actually gives less room for effective tactical/strategic play than ns1 did. There is plenty of content to work with on these forums, not only players going into details about problems, they also highlight a lot of possible solutions. This is however not the correct topic to go into details about problems. Fana is actually one of players that have been most active at posting so you will find plenty of posts that can educate you on his views :). And Trust me, there are players in this community that have studied this game in and out and can give you quite accurate feedback. Some of them didn't even play ns1 so you can get information from many different angles. Many of them however are not posting anymore because of how time-consuming(and frustrating) it can be. Most of their points have actually ended up coming true so its understandable that they are not active(good arguments ignored). The beta history of the Lerk is actually a prime example of that happening. *** In the end I think there is no sure way to see how a pro mod goes. I think some players just need to organize a team and go for it, see where it leads them. If the vanilla play is much better players will stick with it. If the mod is playing better the community will slowly more into that direction. There will be the unknown factors like how many players will be playing ns2 and how well the engine will hold up but it might just be worth trying. Simplest way to check if there is interest is just asking the old ns1 competitive- and the current competitive players if they would like to try that kind of mod. Then that team would have a rough number of initial players. It might be bit hard to reach the old players though.
I appreciate your input Grissi, and I take your point. Unfortunately I think my original point was overlooked in favor of concluding I had nothing worthwhile to say at all.
Time spent defending my position is indeed wasted space, so I'll simply bow out of this conversation in the hope that a more productive one continues.
I would recommend waiting until post 1.0 to put any serious work into a competitive mod or version. Not only is it kind of backhanded to essentially give up on vanilla balance before the game is even complete but who knows what might change in the code and you very well might lose a lot of your work from patch to patch. (Dragon's work come to mind as an example)
For my own opening comment, I like how UWE introduced Pres and the alien commander to the game. Besides the obvious balance concerns that these changes were pioneered to correct from NS1, these features allow both teams to employ a similar division of labour (comm + 5). I would think that it would be best to look at how both commander roles play out and adjust things there. Right now, the alien commander lacks enough juice, while in contrast, the Marine commander is medspamming on top of many more duties.
IIRC, the alien commander can't even select players to read their health in the status panel. Both commanders should use a universal set of controls (that satisfies the needs of both).
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1966975:date=Aug 27 2012, 07:41 AM:name=DarkOmen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DarkOmen @ Aug 27 2012, 07:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966975"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For my own opening comment, I like how UWE introduced Pres and the alien commander to the game. Besides the obvious balance concerns that these changes were pioneered to correct from NS1, these features allow both teams to employ a similar division of labour (comm + 5).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Did these changes solve the problems hey were intended to fix? To some degree, but not entirely.
Did these changes cause problems with other parts of the game that are arguably worse than the problems they were intended to fix? Yes, definitely.
Late posting to this because I was waiting for summer to get here so that the game would come out. Oh wait... Anyway the main points that I am focused on as to how NS2 is going to fare as a competitive game aren't really aesthetic so much as they are gameplay oriented.
Starting with the alien side since it was always the side I enjoyed playing the most. Skulks are pretty boring to play currently with the stupid wall jump hopping crap. It's neat and all but coming from a person that's played competitive shooters from Q1 it's even more unituitive than bunnyhopping. This is going to be another hurdle that will separate ###### players from people that actually want to play the game well. You could have just given skulks some sort of dash skill or smaller lunge instead as a gap closer/dodge skill. Gorges might as well not be in the game anymore considering the alien commander does the job they've always done. Lerks alone are so worthless right now that it makes me not even want to play the game at all. They should just make the button for the lerk evolve tell you that you are an idiot and to go fade. Fades are ridiculous mostly because skulks and lerks are ###### although they seem overly strong, but I was always a ###### fade so what do I know. Onos are probably in the best place as they are still big, expensive lifeforms that facetank fire and smash ###### reasonably well.
Marine side is pretty much the same as always except with prettier phasegates and ###### retarded flamethrowers. I realize that mouth breathers on the forums have been clamoring for years about the stupid things but I really don't like them and don't really see what they bring to the game other than showing off pretty fire effects. Personal res for marines is a neat concept but it removes a layer of gameplay from commanding which is kind of sad. Also I really don't like the gameplay that power nodes brings to the game. It was bad enough having to stop to build res nodes, or conversely to chomp on them, for what seemed like eternity and now I have another thing I have to click on and wait around for BUILT INTO THE MAP. What makes you think that taking me out of the game to play watch a bar fill up/empty will make me enjoy the game more? The trade off they present is so badly thought out that it makes my head hurt. ###### like this is why people gamma hack the ###### out of games.
I could go on and on about this stuff, but a lot of it has been covered in other posts and in other threads. None of it even matters as long as the game at release, and in the time shortly following it, is fun to play. That's really what is going to bring people in and make people want to be the best at it and play against other players with the same goal. If the numbers need tweaked and a LUA script or something is required to make it more balanced for me and my pals to play matches then it's not a big deal. Players like me will adapt. We just want a fun game.
I never competed at The Highest Level in ns1, but I did play for quite a while in an upper mid-level clan.
I do think there's an extent to which you guys are looking at pro/competitive scene viability the wrong way round.
IMO, if there's a huge base of pub players, clans and teams are going to spring up from that base. WoW PvP blows - honestly it's terrible - but <i>millions</i> of people play it, so there's a competitive scene, not to mention sponsored (!) PvE teams competing for world firsts. No one cares about world firsts or ladder rank in any other MMO, because no other MMO is anywhere near as big (maybe GW2 will change this).
So the first thing NS2 needs is to be fun and engaging for public play. If they actually manage to get, say, a couple hundred thousand people playing on pub servers regularly, and if 1% of that total formed clans, that would be 2,000 people.
But again, that's only <b>if</b> they get a base of 200k people playing. Pretty tough in the crowded modern market. If it happens, then I think the right approach would be for UWE to watch the competitive scene that appears and make <i>very</i> small, incremental changes. I agree that chewing on and repairing power nodes sucks, but I actually think that the local combat advantage isn't a terrible idea. So maybe they just make everything about them faster - faster to build, faster to kill, shorter duration on the lights-out before the red lighting comes up.
Maybe something else.
But they're really going to have to see the demos from a wide variety of teams to make those sorts of changes.
Comments
I know one big area spark is an improvement over gldsrc/source: mapping. I can't tell you how nice it is not to have to compile maps. Using Mendasp's overview generator/NS2 launch system, I can go from creating a new room to testing it (with proper minimap) in seconds. Add in not having to track down every leak and the difference is night and day.
That being said, spark is missing quite a few features/functions that are in world hammer/hammer. However, its just a matter of time, rather than that they can't, be added and the basic system is functional enough to make pretty good maps (even if it is a bit time consuming).
It was more because of the hassle that working with Source would cause them, rather than spark being specifically designed for NS2.
As an FPS engine it is brilliant, but NS will always be too much for any engine it is built on, such is the nature of the game. You have 2 games happening at the same time, interacting with each other. I realise NS2 will not be the best game that comes out on the Spark engine, but do not rubbish a very good engine, just because it can't handle a game which could not be handled well by any engine it is ever made on....
It was more because of the hassle that working with Source would cause them, rather than spark being specifically designed for NS2.
As an FPS engine it is brilliant, but NS will always be too much for any engine it is built on, such is the nature of the game. You have 2 games happening at the same time, interacting with each other. I realise NS2 will not be the best game that comes out on the Spark engine, but do not rubbish a very good engine, just because it can't handle a game which could not be handled well by any engine it is ever made on....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you say is ridiculous. As far as we know, Max had experimented with building his own engine in his free time prior to NS2 development. When UWE was unhappy with Source, he took those pieces and started to build a proper engine especially for NS2. This is now Spark. If you don't believe me read the blog post from 2006 or so where they first mention building an engine from the ground. How you can call the engine brilliant, when it struggles to run the one game it was designed for, is beyond me.
To get back on topic, I share Fana's pessimism: If the game is not good enough to attract and sustain a decently sized competitive community on it's own, I don't see it going anywhere in that area. Still, I would love to get rid of all the "immersive" crap, creating a mod for that alone would be great.
Rather than ask us to educate you, you should get your own experience, by playing the game and discussing with your teammates, and then post your opinions based on that experience. Until you do that, your posts have little value and replying to them is not worth the time it takes.
The following is a good example of why:
I could write a lengthy reply explaining that this has been suggested before, that UWE's initial fade concept was along those lines, and why it simply doesn't work because of the implications it has on other central parts of gameplay, but it would be a waste of time: Instead of moving the discussion forward, it moves the discussion backwards, to topics that have already been discussed and concluded.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would like to think that the type of poster I represent is one who is generally well educated, and guenuinely interested in improving the game, and the quaility of the discussion. Your hostility towards me is, in my opinion, completely misplaced, and if I am to take it that you feel this way about anyone who wishes to help, then I believe you should reexamine your intentions.
I am asking you to relate to me your experiences with the game, because you are portarying yourself to be knowledgable about the game and its mechanics. If you have no intention of educating people regarding your position, then you should be wary of taking one at all.
I do not wish to seem hostile either, but I would appreciate it if you refrained from taking such an aggressive stance with <i>any</i> member of the community, not just myself, who expresses a desire to help.
You quote my comment about the Fade, and then refer to it as though I was making some suggestion about changing the mechanics of that lifeform. I made no such suggestion, merely offered that your original analysis of the Competitive environment for the alien team might be better served by more a more efficient approach to identifying problems and resolving them. I do not know what you are refering to when you talk about previous implementations of the Fade lifeform, but it has undergone many revisions since its original implementation in NS1, and I am again reticent of refering to a game in beta as being concrete in its representation of critical game mechanics.
That said, if you have a case to make along these lines, it wastes no ones time to draw attention to past discussions, particularly as a means of educating members of the community.
I do not understand why you seem to be taking the position that communicating your opinion on this matter in a clear, precise way should be at all burdensome to you. If you want to move this discussion forward, I strongly encourage you to ennumerate the things you find troublesome with the game, based on <i>your</i> experiences, so that we can discuss them in a civil, productive manner.
Finally, while we are a community of members, all of whom seem to care very deeply about the development of this game, the only way to move forward with this discussion is to create a positive discussion about <i>everyone's</i> opinion, not just my own. While my experience with NS2 in its current form is not as indepth as yours, it is not <i>my</i> opinion that really matters, nor did I ever suggest it was. Instead, I maintain that in order to better discuss the implementation of a Competitive structure for NS2, the community needs to be able to first reach a consensus regarding the state of the game as a whole first.
This isn't a tabula rasa approach, its an efficient one. The first two pages of this thread offer many references to the "inferiority" of the game engine, and the many "unnecessary" features included in the game. But no one has actually explained <i>why</i> these things negatively impact Competitive play. Sure, they are unnecessary, but as I said its a slippery slope, and if you begin a discussion about removing <i>everything</i> that might be unnecessary, you can very quickly find yourself playing pong.
Instead I'm trying to suggest that the conversation turn away from why doesn't work, or what we as individuals do not find appealing, and instead focus on those issues that we can all agree on as legitimate, game altering problems.
Your analysis about alien tactics is a good place to start, but again, sometimes finding solutions to problems isn't always about a constant march forward. Sometimes you must step back a few paces and try to look at it from a different angle, or even one you've already tried. I've already given one example regarding the implementation of the Lerk bite attack in NS1 where the Developers did exactly that. There was a problem, they tried one solution, and later went back and decided it was better to reimplement what they had originally.
If you want this discussion to be productive, maybe you should be willing to listen to outside opinions on occassion, are at least willing to reexamine your own from time to time.
Barring that, you should at least endevour to treat other members of the community with respect and courtesy.
I am asking you to relate to me your experiences with the game, because you are portarying yourself to be knowledgable about the game and its mechanics. If you have no intention of educating people regarding your position, then you should be wary of taking one at all.
I do not wish to seem hostile either, but I would appreciate it if you refrained from taking such an aggressive stance with <i>any</i> member of the community, not just myself, who expresses a desire to help.
You quote my comment about the Fade, and then refer to it as though I was making some suggestion about changing the mechanics of that lifeform. I made no such suggestion, merely offered that your original analysis of the Competitive environment for the alien team might be better served by more a more efficient approach to identifying problems and resolving them. I do not know what you are refering to when you talk about previous implementations of the Fade lifeform, but it has undergone many revisions since its original implementation in NS1, and I am again reticent of refering to a game in beta as being concrete in its representation of critical game mechanics.
That said, if you have a case to make along these lines, it wastes no ones time to draw attention to past discussions, particularly as a means of educating members of the community.
I do not understand why you seem to be taking the position that communicating your opinion on this matter in a clear, precise way should be at all burdensome to you. If you want to move this discussion forward, I strongly encourage you to ennumerate the things you find troublesome with the game, based on <i>your</i> experiences, so that we can discuss them in a civil, productive manner.
Finally, while we are a community of members, all of whom seem to care very deeply about the development of this game, the only way to move forward with this discussion is to create a positive discussion about <i>everyone's</i> opinion, not just my own. While my experience with NS2 in its current form is not as indepth as yours, it is not <i>my</i> opinion that really matters, nor did I ever suggest it was. Instead, I maintain that in order to better discuss the implementation of a Competitive structure for NS2, the community needs to be able to first reach a consensus regarding the state of the game as a whole first.
This isn't a tabula rasa approach, its an efficient one. The first two pages of this thread offer many references to the "inferiority" of the game engine, and the many "unnecessary" features included in the game. But no one has actually explained <i>why</i> these things negatively impact Competitive play. Sure, they are unnecessary, but as I said its a slippery slope, and if you begin a discussion about removing <i>everything</i> that might be unnecessary, you can very quickly find yourself playing pong.
Instead I'm trying to suggest that the conversation turn away from why doesn't work, or what we as individuals do not find appealing, and instead focus on those issues that we can all agree on as legitimate, game altering problems.
Your analysis about alien tactics is a good place to start, but again, sometimes finding solutions to problems isn't always about a constant march forward. Sometimes you must step back a few paces and try to look at it from a different angle, or even one you've already tried. I've already given one example regarding the implementation of the Lerk bite attack in NS1 where the Developers did exactly that. There was a problem, they tried one solution, and later went back and decided it was better to reimplement what they had originally.
If you want this discussion to be productive, maybe you should be willing to listen to outside opinions on occassion, are at least willing to reexamine your own from time to time.
Barring that, you should at least endevour to treat other members of the community with respect and courtesy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry Red Dragon but I feel amazed how little substance you have in such large amount of text. These type of post are often the reason many good topics fell appear during the beta phase. I won't comment any more on that but I ask that you would try to keep this more on topic.
If you are interested in what are the problems many competitive players see with the game I would advice you to go chat with few of them on team speak or through steam. That's the best way to get a real feel for things, talk to the players.
Even better if you can talk to both ns1 and ns2 competitive players and their feel for the game.
If you want to learn more about natural selection I would also suggest studying how all the game mechanics come together in both ns1 and ns2 to truly see the difference. One of the things to notice is that ns2 actually gives less room for effective tactical/strategic play than ns1 did.
There is plenty of content to work with on these forums, not only players going into details about problems, they also highlight a lot of possible solutions. This is however not the correct topic to go into details about problems. Fana is actually one of players that have been most active at posting so you will find plenty of posts that can educate you on his views :).
And Trust me, there are players in this community that have studied this game in and out and can give you quite accurate feedback. Some of them didn't even play ns1 so you can get information from many different angles. Many of them however are not posting anymore because of how time-consuming(and frustrating) it can be. Most of their points have actually ended up coming true so its understandable that they are not active(good arguments ignored). The beta history of the Lerk is actually a prime example of that happening.
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In the end I think there is no sure way to see how a pro mod goes. I think some players just need to organize a team and go for it, see where it leads them. If the vanilla play is much better players will stick with it. If the mod is playing better the community will slowly more into that direction. There will be the unknown factors like how many players will be playing ns2 and how well the engine will hold up but it might just be worth trying. Simplest way to check if there is interest is just asking the old ns1 competitive- and the current competitive players if they would like to try that kind of mod. Then that team would have a rough number of initial players. It might be bit hard to reach the old players though.
Time spent defending my position is indeed wasted space, so I'll simply bow out of this conversation in the hope that a more productive one continues.
IIRC, the alien commander can't even select players to read their health in the status panel. Both commanders should use a universal set of controls (that satisfies the needs of both).
Did these changes solve the problems hey were intended to fix? To some degree, but not entirely.
Did these changes cause problems with other parts of the game that are arguably worse than the problems they were intended to fix? Yes, definitely.
And it arguably removed the most entertaining spectator part of the game, which was watching the pressure shotgun/flash lerk/fade.
Starting with the alien side since it was always the side I enjoyed playing the most. Skulks are pretty boring to play currently with the stupid wall jump hopping crap. It's neat and all but coming from a person that's played competitive shooters from Q1 it's even more unituitive than bunnyhopping. This is going to be another hurdle that will separate ###### players from people that actually want to play the game well. You could have just given skulks some sort of dash skill or smaller lunge instead as a gap closer/dodge skill. Gorges might as well not be in the game anymore considering the alien commander does the job they've always done. Lerks alone are so worthless right now that it makes me not even want to play the game at all. They should just make the button for the lerk evolve tell you that you are an idiot and to go fade. Fades are ridiculous mostly because skulks and lerks are ###### although they seem overly strong, but I was always a ###### fade so what do I know. Onos are probably in the best place as they are still big, expensive lifeforms that facetank fire and smash ###### reasonably well.
Marine side is pretty much the same as always except with prettier phasegates and ###### retarded flamethrowers. I realize that mouth breathers on the forums have been clamoring for years about the stupid things but I really don't like them and don't really see what they bring to the game other than showing off pretty fire effects. Personal res for marines is a neat concept but it removes a layer of gameplay from commanding which is kind of sad. Also I really don't like the gameplay that power nodes brings to the game. It was bad enough having to stop to build res nodes, or conversely to chomp on them, for what seemed like eternity and now I have another thing I have to click on and wait around for BUILT INTO THE MAP. What makes you think that taking me out of the game to play watch a bar fill up/empty will make me enjoy the game more? The trade off they present is so badly thought out that it makes my head hurt. ###### like this is why people gamma hack the ###### out of games.
I could go on and on about this stuff, but a lot of it has been covered in other posts and in other threads. None of it even matters as long as the game at release, and in the time shortly following it, is fun to play. That's really what is going to bring people in and make people want to be the best at it and play against other players with the same goal. If the numbers need tweaked and a LUA script or something is required to make it more balanced for me and my pals to play matches then it's not a big deal. Players like me will adapt. We just want a fun game.
I do think there's an extent to which you guys are looking at pro/competitive scene viability the wrong way round.
IMO, if there's a huge base of pub players, clans and teams are going to spring up from that base. WoW PvP blows - honestly it's terrible - but <i>millions</i> of people play it, so there's a competitive scene, not to mention sponsored (!) PvE teams competing for world firsts. No one cares about world firsts or ladder rank in any other MMO, because no other MMO is anywhere near as big (maybe GW2 will change this).
So the first thing NS2 needs is to be fun and engaging for public play. If they actually manage to get, say, a couple hundred thousand people playing on pub servers regularly, and if 1% of that total formed clans, that would be 2,000 people.
But again, that's only <b>if</b> they get a base of 200k people playing. Pretty tough in the crowded modern market. If it happens, then I think the right approach would be for UWE to watch the competitive scene that appears and make <i>very</i> small, incremental changes. I agree that chewing on and repairing power nodes sucks, but I actually think that the local combat advantage isn't a terrible idea. So maybe they just make everything about them faster - faster to build, faster to kill, shorter duration on the lights-out before the red lighting comes up.
Maybe something else.
But they're really going to have to see the demos from a wide variety of teams to make those sorts of changes.