Alien Commander: full time job?

ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
edited August 2012 in NS2 General Discussion
<div class="IPBDescription">another possible avenue for asymmetry</div>So I'm sure this topic has come up a few times, but maybe it hasn't had this perspective before.

Many people think that the alien commander is somewhat boring in comparison to the marine equivalent, mainly because there isn't as much direct interaction. However, this "issue" creates the interesting scenario where a full time alien commander really isn't all that necessary. A lot of the time, alien commanders really don't do very much. There is a bit of infestation spreading and cyst dropping, but other than that, the upgrades come along once in a blue moon (or built hive), and even then the lifeform upgrades take aaaaages.

Could this maybe be another opportunity to further differentiate the two teams? I know that asymmetry for the sake of asymmetry is a bad approach but... wait a second, I don't know that! More asymmetry! I think it would be a cool concept for the marine commander to be a full time job, whereas the alien commander only spent maybe 40-50% of his game in the "chair". Maybe it could even be taken a step further, and multiple (but not simultaneous) alien commanders could be used.

The thing with alien commanding is that it typically isn't unified by some guiding strategy, you don't need permanent input, and you don't need continuity. Its kind of the perfect candidate for input from multiple people. Now, with the release just around the corner, I don't really expect for such a radical gameplay change to be considered, but I think it is an interesting concept when it comes to NS and commanding. From NS1 we think of it as a permanent role, to be interrupted only in dire circumstances. But maybe it doesn't need to be that way for the aliens?

EDIT
Reading over what I wrote, it basically sounds exactly like gorges from NS1... Hmmm...
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Comments

  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    Get cara and first rt up -> Gorge and go heal up the rt -> Get some more rt's up, go heal them if you have time -> Get 2nd hive up, go heal it up while saving res for 2nd hive upgrades.

    Can't say I've seen alot of others doing this, but I find myself plenty busy in the chair and outside as a khammander. I'm having fun optimizing all the timings.

    It's rather tiresome though toddling around on my fat gorge constantly repeating "don't go commander, i'm commanding, don't go commander" into the mic.
  • ZeikkoZeikko Join Date: 2007-12-16 Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
    edited August 2012
    Alien commanding doesn't work very well on public because of the reason that Mestaritonttu pointed out but in organized play it works pretty nicely and i have to say that I enjoy most parts of it. Also there qre quite many ways to approach alien commanding: skulk-comm, gorge-comm, ad-hoc-comm, etc. and they all take quite a lot of planning and coordination in order to be perfectly optimized.
  • TimMcTimMc Join Date: 2012-02-06 Member: 143945Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1966855:date=Aug 26 2012, 06:54 AM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Aug 26 2012, 06:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966855"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Get cara and first rt up -> Gorge and go heal up the rt -> Get some more rt's up, go heal them if you have time -> Get 2nd hive up, go heal it up while saving res for 2nd hive upgrades.

    Can't say I've seen alot of others doing this, but I find myself plenty busy in the chair and outside as a khammander. I'm having fun optimizing all the timings.

    It's rather tiresome though toddling around on my fat gorge constantly repeating "don't go commander, i'm commanding, don't go commander" into the mic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The number of times I've popped out of the chair to drop hydras, only to have someone else pop in...
  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    You just gotta be happy there are willing khammanders - an empty marine cc is usually avoided like plague :P
  • rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    I never stay in the hive the whole time as alien comm, but the problem with this is that people will constantly hop in thinking there is no commander. Usually they get out if you ask them but there have been a few times where they either didn't speak english or were just complete noobs and they did not get out. :/


    Really sucks in this aspect too because eject commander for aliens <u><b>still doesn't work.</b></u> -_-


    So in short, the alien comm is still in a bad spot because to play it effectively you need to not play it. And that doesn't work well in pubs.
  • TimMcTimMc Join Date: 2012-02-06 Member: 143945Members
    They need more micromanagement for alien comm, to keep him stuck in the chair at all times imo. Do this rather than address people in pubs hopping in the chair.
  • KhyronKhyron Join Date: 2012-02-02 Member: 143308Members
    I think a lot of khams seem to go only as far as building structures. There doesn't seem to be a lot of interest in doing the ongoing stuff like getting drifters in to position, using enzyme, spikes or any of the support structure abilities despite how amazingly effective it can be. Another thing Kham's are often a bit lazy at is working out what the marines are about to do next and relaying that info to the team or better yet corralling them to carry out some strategic plan. It's kind of like a war room where the Kham is looking down on a table with figurines and making strategic choices about what to do next. A lot of pub Khams get stuck in a pattern of just doing whatever is requested of them from their own team "can we get leap", "can you build some crags", "can you mist me".

    So I guess my point is the problems Imbalanxed talks about are at least somewhat due to underutilising the Kham's abilities. More strategic thinking/planning/analysis, commanding and tactical support. At least there is plenty of room for that on the Aussie serves.
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited August 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1966890:date=Aug 26 2012, 10:24 AM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Aug 26 2012, 10:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I never stay in the hive the whole time as alien comm, but the problem with this is that people will constantly hop in thinking there is no commander. Usually they get out if you ask them but there have been a few times where they either didn't speak english or were just complete noobs and they did not get out. :/


    Really sucks in this aspect too because eject commander for aliens <u><b>still doesn't work.</b></u> -_-


    So in short, the alien comm is still in a bad spot because to play it effectively you need to not play it. And that doesn't work well in pubs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This is why I'm a strong proponent of the ND comm-system in which you are the commander even if your not in the hive/cs. The only ways to be removed from comm are to resign or get ejected.

    Also, I'm typically in the alien comm 90% of the time (only jumping out to defend the base/drop defensive hydras and clogs). It can be a bit boring early game when your res-starved such that your sitting around waiting for enough res, but people seem to underestimate optimizing upgrades/chamber timing and using the comm view for gathering intel (I can easily hear the footsteps/see the black smoke of marines in many areas of the map). Unless there is a compelling reason to jump out (i.e. hive under attack), you should stay in the hive imo.
  • BeelzebubBeelzebub Join Date: 2012-08-12 Member: 155506Members
    I get out of the hive very often to attack marines going after close resources or to help my team push a marine base. Also i will get out to gorge and build defenses and heal structures. I don't often see other aliens khamms do this. The only problem I have is that I have gotten out of the hive to gorge or help and someone else jumped in and wouldn't get out.. this has happened to me a few times... I wouldn't mind seeing the "kick the comm" feature working again.. That is the only issue i have with jumping out and actually doing things as a alien khamm
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    <!--quoteo(post=1966890:date=Aug 26 2012, 10:24 AM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Aug 26 2012, 10:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really sucks in this aspect too because eject commander for aliens <u><b>still doesn't work.</b></u> -_-<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Should be fixed for 218
  • mf-mf- Join Date: 2008-06-17 Member: 64463Members
    edited August 2012
    When I go Commander for aliens

    1. Drop Early hive
    2. Drop cysts to RT between new hive / current hive
    3. Logout
    4. Evolve to gorge
    5. When you finish evolving, login to hive and you have 10 TRES.
    6. Drop RT
    7. Drop OC's at current hive to prevent marine spawn rushing
    8. Slide to RT
    9. Power build RT
    10. Drop OC's at new hive
    11. Power build new hive
    12. Save for leap
    13. Go from there :)

    Lots of little things you can do as alien comm that add up
    * Position drifters
    * Place clogs all over your upgrade chambers to delay them being sniped
    * Infestation spikes to prevent upgrade chambers being spiked (place them in a location you can block marine access
    * Help build RT's and spread infestation
    * Use drifters on your dedicated RT killing skulk.. faster rate of attack = RT dieing quicker



    I do with their is a little more, I try not to explode cysts as I think its a bit retarded OP. I think the most important thing is not to play like its an RTS, you can actively get out and assist in combat / building / scouting / res killing.
  • CobraCommanderCobraCommander Join Date: 2012-07-30 Member: 154472Members
    When you play as the Alien's Khamm, you evolve into the <i>Gorge Overlord</i>. You'll be able to leave your hive anytime and still occupy the Khamm seat. While you're out of the Hive, you have the same build menu as the Khamm, so you're able to build anything and everything in the appropriate places.

    So if you wanna put Cyst on the ceiling to make sure Marines use up ammo, Get out of the hive as the Gorge Daddy and plant them on yourself. All the things you were able to do in NS1 as a Gorge, you can now do only as the Gorge Daddy Overlord >)

    Also you'll have more health to tank more damage but spit is weaker so you better have your hydra babies out.
  • elmo9000elmo9000 Join Date: 2012-03-24 Member: 149324Members
    Having to use drifters for buildings was much better imo, as it forced there to be a commander who microes them to position/avoids marines with them. Maybe even require them to be used for cyst spread aswell. Could also give some extra things that involve economy management for the alien comm, instead of being able to help at battle. Theres a lot things you could do to make it better to stay in the hive, instead of just going in to drop a new structure/upgrade every now and then.
  • JuCCiJuCCi Join Date: 2011-08-08 Member: 114961Members, NS2 Map Tester
    <!--quoteo(post=1966970:date=Aug 27 2012, 02:25 AM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Aug 27 2012, 02:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966970"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having to use drifters for buildings was much better imo, as it forced there to be a commander who microes them to position/avoids marines with them. Maybe even require them to be used for cyst spread aswell. Could also give some extra things that involve economy management for the alien comm, instead of being able to help at battle. Theres a lot things you could do to make it better to stay in the hive, instead of just going in to drop a new structure/upgrade every now and then.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    Greatly miss this also.
  • DarkOmenDarkOmen Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7148Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1966970:date=Aug 27 2012, 12:25 AM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Aug 27 2012, 12:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966970"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having to use drifters for buildings was much better imo, as it forced there to be a commander who microes them to position/avoids marines with them. Maybe even require them to be used for cyst spread aswell. Could also give some extra things that involve economy management for the alien comm, instead of being able to help at battle. Theres a lot things you could do to make it better to stay in the hive, instead of just going in to drop a new structure/upgrade every now and then.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Don't miss this at all. Cysts still need to be crept up to wherever you want to build, rather than both Cysts and Drifters.
  • KhyronKhyron Join Date: 2012-02-02 Member: 143308Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1966976:date=Aug 27 2012, 04:47 PM:name=DarkOmen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DarkOmen @ Aug 27 2012, 04:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966976"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't miss this at all. Cysts still need to be crept up to wherever you want to build, rather than both Cysts and Drifters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I agree. Drifters to build structures was an arbitrary time sink with no thematic or game play relevance.
  • elmo9000elmo9000 Join Date: 2012-03-24 Member: 149324Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1966978:date=Aug 27 2012, 10:02 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Aug 27 2012, 10:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966978"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree. Drifters to build structures was an arbitrary time sink with no thematic or game play relevance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Having them being a time sink/require attention to be effective was the whole idea. The way you can just drop everything makes alien commander most effective when hes not commanding. Why have alien commander in the game, if the most effective way of alien commanding is not to do it?
  • AurOn2AurOn2 COOKIES&#33; FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS&#33; Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
    on the otherhand, making it TOO tedious. discourages having one at all. go figure.
  • elmo9000elmo9000 Join Date: 2012-03-24 Member: 149324Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1966981:date=Aug 27 2012, 11:22 AM:name=AuroN2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Aug 27 2012, 11:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966981"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->on the otherhand, making it TOO tedious. discourages having one at all. go figure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I dont know if requiring there to be a alien commander at all times to be optimal because he actually has to do stuff would make it more discouraging to have one though. If he had a critical role that would require attention and had an impact on the teams success like the marine comm has, how would it make it more tedious and less important to have in the game at all? Should go all the way with the alien comm, or cut it out of the game, not have it there just so someone can log in for 5 seconds to start researching blink and jump out again.
  • TweadleTweadle Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Members, NS2 Map Tester
    <!--quoteo(post=1966983:date=Aug 27 2012, 09:32 AM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Aug 27 2012, 09:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966983"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Should go all the way with the alien comm, or cut it out of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This.
  • spawnehspawneh Join Date: 2003-11-11 Member: 22480Members
    I don't get it, I must be doing something different. I'm constantly monitoring the marine movement and calling it out to my team. Moving my drifters around, making sure I know where every marine is and letting my team know. I do jump out to gorge at the hive and put up some defences, maybe build up nearby res. I always have something to do.

    Never find a shortage of things to do.
  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited August 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1966991:date=Aug 27 2012, 11:48 AM:name=spawneh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spawneh @ Aug 27 2012, 11:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't get it, I must be doing something different. I'm constantly monitoring the marine movement and calling it out to my team. Moving my drifters around, making sure I know where every marine is and letting my team know. I do jump out to gorge at the hive and put up some defences, maybe build up nearby res. I always have something to do.

    Never find a shortage of things to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    ^ This!

    If you actually command your team instead of playing for yourself you have enough to do. This goes this far, that you can help a group of skulks that advancing a marine group from two different sides, to attack at the exactly same time. Sure, the skulks could look at their map to time the attack, but its better to have one person that times and voice the command to attack.
  • elmo9000elmo9000 Join Date: 2012-03-24 Member: 149324Members
    But in both of those cases, are you doing something that is optimal, or even useful when you compare it to being on the field and taking part on the fights? You dont really need to fiddle your drifters around all the time. Foresight is definitely useful, but if you put a drifter somewhere it becomes a waste of time since 100% of your team can see the enemy moving on their map. Obviously if youre playing with drones that dont use minimap its useful to tell them what to do, but even then its more useful to do it from the field and take part on the fight yourself.

    Youre not really contributing anything outside the short amount of time it takes to drop a structure/click a research every now and then. Its simply better to not have alien commander at all, but instead any member of the team just going in and clicking a button and then logging out again.
  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I think this is simply a difference between pub and comp games. But it shouldn't be a problem.
    In pub games you need to lead the aliens and it is difficult to maintain a "everybody goes com when needed" tactic.
    In comp games you don't need to lead every alien and it is much easier to have many part time coms instead of one dedicated.

    It's not bad to have different game play in pub / comp. Thats why I don't see a problem there.
  • elmo9000elmo9000 Join Date: 2012-03-24 Member: 149324Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1966998:date=Aug 27 2012, 01:50 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Aug 27 2012, 01:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966998"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think this is simply a difference between pub and comp games. But it shouldn't be a problem.
    In pub games you need to lead the aliens and it is difficult to maintain a "everybody goes com when needed" tactic.
    In comp games you don't need to lead every alien and it is much easier to have many part time coms instead of one dedicated.

    It's not bad to have different game play in pub / comp. Thats why I don't see a problem there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    But why cant it be like marine commander, and actually have a role that is required on the game always, no matter if pub or comp setting.

    At the moment its incredibly poorly designed, when its so useless that its better not to actually play it.
  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited August 2012
    Mhh... fair enough. But is there anything that can be done about this till 1.0?

    Maybe having drifters speed up building construction? Would introduce more micro but also damages the gorge.
    Introducing more buildings seem to much work now.

    Edit: Oh, ripped of from another thread: Decoy buildings shouldn't be much work to implement.
  • elmo9000elmo9000 Join Date: 2012-03-24 Member: 149324Members
    Having drifters morph into buildings again alone makes it so that you cant just jump into the hive and drop a structure with one click.

    Then there would need to be something that requires ongoing attention from the comm to keep the alien economy/expansion running. We got cysts yeah, but atleast at the moment it simply isnt enough.

    Foresight for additional scouting is pretty neat, but at the moment its not so good/usefull that it outweights joining the fight with a lifeform instead. Maybe it could show the spotted marines/buildings on hivesight for everyone, for a short time.

    There was talk about drifter parasite, maybe that would be nice. It would require attention from comm to get the scouting, instead of just placing the drifter one time and then forgetting it.
  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
    One thing that annoys me is the situation that arises when you rush carapace upgrade, but then get locked in by marines on both sides of the hive room. Now I understand that the aliens can then fight to push the marines back on one side or the other, but what does the alien commander do during this struggle? Answer: nothing. There is absolutely nothing you can do while this goes on. You have no way of impacting combat, so you might as well not even be in the chair.
  • elmo9000elmo9000 Join Date: 2012-03-24 Member: 149324Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1967013:date=Aug 27 2012, 03:12 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Aug 27 2012, 03:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One thing that annoys me is the situation that arises when you rush carapace upgrade, but then get locked in by marines on both sides of the hive room. Now I understand that the aliens can then fight to push the marines back on one side or the other, but what does the alien commander do during this struggle? Answer: nothing. There is absolutely nothing you can do while this goes on. You have no way of impacting combat, so you might as well not even be in the chair.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You can drop lifeform eggs for team res in the next build i think. But there definitely should be more to do than that.
  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
    edited August 2012
    From what I can tell, marine commanding is based on dropping many structures which assist your players. Phase gates, armouries, observatories. Whenever you take a new area on the map, all these things usually hit the ground.

    From my experience, alien commanding is about dropping as few structures as possible. If an alien commander drops any structure other than a cyst, resource tower, hive or shell (which may seem like a few options, but not when you take into account that the cyst isn't really a structure, and the resource tower and hive can only be placed in very specific locations) within the first 5-10 minutes of the game, you can pretty much write it off as a loss.

    What I might like would be less powerful structures, but made cheaper. Or actually just a frikking reason to drop half the structures. Crags heals such a little, there only real use is when you are able to drop 4 or 5 straight away in the same place. Shifts are so situational that there is hardly ever a reason to drop them. Shades are arguably useful (though not really with how pathetic the camouflage they offer is), but they come at the cost of horribly underpowered upgrade options.

    Long story short, when a marine commander drops a structure, he feels like he's making progress, when an alien commander does the same, he feels like he's done something wrong.
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