<!--quoteo(post=1966980:date=Aug 27 2012, 05:53 PM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Aug 27 2012, 05:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966980"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having them being a time sink/require attention to be effective was the whole idea. The way you can just drop everything makes alien commander most effective when hes not commanding. Why have alien commander in the game, if the most effective way of alien commanding is not to do it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I disagree that it was the whole idea, but I'd be open to you providing some evidence that it was the case (like a dev forum post or something). In my mind the drifters construct mechanic seems a legacy RTS feature in that it was asymmetrical but equivalent to the marine's construct mechanics. That's just my opinion and I can't back it up with a reference though. After the introduction of cysts & infestation the drifter mechanic is somewhat of a duplication of effort.
If your goal is to create a time sink for the kham, I would much rather see the return of slow building cysts than drifters being involved in the construction process. But I'm not particularly interested in either.
B206 was when the change came in and Charlie talked about it for the first 1m of this video: <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/UiuDux3Kq8M"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/UiuDux3Kq8M" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
I ment that it was the whole idea on why to add the drifter building morphing back in, instead of it being the reason why uwe added them into the game in the first place. Theres of course lots of other ways to give the comm more stuff that requires attention, but drifters required to build just seems like the easiest one to add back in, and i personally liked that mechanic. Might have worded my post badly there.
<!--quoteo(post=1966991:date=Aug 27 2012, 03:48 AM:name=spawneh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spawneh @ Aug 27 2012, 03:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't get it, I must be doing something different. I'm constantly monitoring the marine movement and calling it out to my team. Moving my drifters around, making sure I know where every marine is and letting my team know. I do jump out to gorge at the hive and put up some defences, maybe build up nearby res. I always have something to do.
Never find a shortage of things to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure I watch and tell the team marine movement, but its frustrating to always be in a position where I know marine movements but unable to respond to it. All I can do is hope the team listens and reacts. I am so busy informing teammates of enemy movements, I don't often do much individual guidance besides vague orders "take x room", "gorge here now" or "defend x harvester".
It is the opposite for the marine commander. You are unaware of enemy movements, but you are entirely active in issuing orders to teammates and directly supporting them.
Alien commander feels like I am a chat show host.
Marine commander feels like I am an actual leader.
Maybe its just the mentality of alien players, not following orders in pubs as well as marines do. Part of this probably is just from NS1, aliens living without a commander. However alien commander still feels not entirely necessary. Marines have a symbiotic relationship, where every marine is needed to build, attack and achieve goals. The commander directly supports these goals. As alien commander, all I can really do is talk and build on my own. Only lategame adrenaline and occasional spikes get me engaged.
"One thing that annoys me is the situation that arises when you rush carapace upgrade, but then get locked in by marines on both sides of the hive room."
This ^
Fast second hive allows more 'spawn coverage' (yeah okay I made that up) ... futher disrupting marine control of the map ... maybe its still early days and people find that cele first is better than cara first if no quick second hive?
I think the best solution to this problem would be giving the Alien commander more 'assist' type abilities.
Marine comms spend a lot of time just watching marines and giving out ammo / meds / nano shield when a marine needs them. His digression can win and lose games, and you always want him in the game looking for times when he can change the out come of a pivotal battle with a few meds.
Alien comm doesn't need to do this at all, he can't really provide much support. I wonder if there are additional ways he could provide support in a manner that is similar, but different from the marine commander? For example making infestation spikes available from the start, or being able to deploy a buff to aliens on infestation etc...
Also I feel like mist should be usable on structures to speed construction, and give players or buildings a heal over time...
<!--quoteo(post=1967203:date=Aug 27 2012, 06:19 PM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Aug 27 2012, 06:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967203"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the best solution to this problem would be giving the Alien commander more 'assist' type abilities.
Marine comms spend a lot of time just watching marines and giving out ammo / meds / nano shield when a marine needs them. His digression can win and lose games, and you always want him in the game looking for times when he can change the out come of a pivotal battle with a few meds.
Alien comm doesn't need to do this at all, he can't really provide much support. I wonder if there are additional ways he could provide support in a manner that is similar, but different from the marine commander? For example making infestation spikes available from the start, or being able to deploy a buff to aliens on infestation etc...
Also I feel like mist should be usable on structures to speed construction, and give players or buildings a heal over time...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Speeding up structure construction is a messy kettle of fish, after seeing how nanoconstruct went. I can only see mist speeding up buildings if it prevented gorges from helping - so for 2 res the commander could replace the gorges building efforts. Either gorge or mist, not both.
On other abilities for the commander to support with, yes I think he needs more. However extending his hand beyond the infestation will probably appear strange. Drifters cannot use abilities without decloaking anymore, which means they die in a few shots. Either make the tougher, or give them cloak back.
Then: <ul><li>Infestation spikes at all times, no 2 hive requirement. Marines don't need two bases for nano.</li><li>Give alien commander camo ability. Can target and grant camouflage to anyone for a few seconds, to aid ambushes or escapes. Or even help defend an RT by hiding it from a passer by. 3 res.</li><li>Give alien commander regeneration ability. Can target a structure or player to grant regeneration temporarily, and only if out of combat. 5 res.</li><li>Give alien commander celerity ability. Affects all aliens on map, good for boosting speed for rushes and running to save a hive. 10 res.</li></ul>
Something like that, each unlocking based on which hive chamber is bought. Sort of diminishes alien structures, but marine commanders build armouries all the time to prevent spamming abilities which do the same thing.
In all honesty I think its ridiculous that an armoury costs 10 res, does so much to aid a marine team, while a crag costs 15 res and does nearly nothing. Need 3+ crags to setup a comparable healing station. The key difference is crags heal structures (poorly).
<!--quoteo(post=1967207:date=Aug 28 2012, 03:03 AM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Aug 28 2012, 03:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967207"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ul><li>Infestation spikes at all times, no 2 hive requirement. Marines don't need two bases for nano.</li><li>Give alien commander camo ability. Can target and grant camouflage to anyone for a few seconds, to aid ambushes or escapes. Or even help defend an RT by hiding it from a passer by. 3 res.</li><li>Give alien commander regeneration ability. Can target a structure or player to grant regeneration temporarily, and only if out of combat. 5 res.</li><li>Give alien commander celerity ability. Affects all aliens on map, good for boosting speed for rushes and running to save a hive. 10 res.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that are some really good ideas here. At least it gets more clear, that the alien com needs more support abilities to make him more interesting.
<!--quoteo(post=1967207:date=Aug 28 2012, 03:03 AM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Aug 28 2012, 03:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967207"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then: <ul><li>Infestation spikes at all times, no 2 hive requirement. Marines don't need two bases for nano.</li><li>Give alien commander camo ability. Can target and grant camouflage to anyone for a few seconds, to aid ambushes or escapes. Or even help defend an RT by hiding it from a passer by. 3 res.</li><li>Give alien commander regeneration ability. Can target a structure or player to grant regeneration temporarily, and only if out of combat. 5 res.</li><li>Give alien commander celerity ability. Affects all aliens on map, good for boosting speed for rushes and running to save a hive. 10 res.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While those are some interesting suggestions, the problem in my opinion is the cost. Its easy to drop down a 2 or 3 res assist in a time of need, but 10 res, or even 5 res? That's the entire cost of a resource tower right there in one click. I'm not saying it isn't worth it. Speeding up an entire team sounds very formidable, and 10 res is probably a fair price, maybe even too fair. However the problem is in the mind of the player. They are sacrificing a lot of resources on something that is very risky, in the sense that its being applied to players that could die straight away. The attack could go wrong, people may not follow orders, ect. Its a big risk for so much res, which is why these abilities are usually made more powerful, or much cheaper than they should be. Eventually you get a situation where commanders are willing to use the ability, but when the ability works well, it works far too well, and is actually overpowered.
I dunno, big abilities like that don't usually sit well in games like this. However, I am all for the addition of more, smaller assist like features. I especially like the idea of gaining different assists based on the kind of hive upgrade you take.
<!--quoteo(post=1967298:date=Aug 28 2012, 04:35 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Aug 28 2012, 04:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967298"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While those are some interesting suggestions, the problem in my opinion is the cost. Its easy to drop down a 2 or 3 res assist in a time of need, but 10 res, or even 5 res? That's the entire cost of a resource tower right there in one click. I'm not saying it isn't worth it. Speeding up an entire team sounds very formidable, and 10 res is probably a fair price, maybe even too fair. However the problem is in the mind of the player. They are sacrificing a lot of resources on something that is very risky, in the sense that its being applied to players that could die straight away. The attack could go wrong, people may not follow orders, ect. Its a big risk for so much res, which is why these abilities are usually made more powerful, or much cheaper than they should be. Eventually you get a situation where commanders are willing to use the ability, but when the ability works well, it works far too well, and is actually overpowered.
I dunno, big abilities like that don't usually sit well in games like this. However, I am all for the addition of more, smaller assist like features. I especially like the idea of gaining different assists based on the kind of hive upgrade you take.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I suppose the regeneration should be cheaper. I was trying to keep it expensive so there is a reason to build crags. Fully healing an onos or fade would be worth it for 5 res, not a skulk.
nano shield gets used a lot, and if I remember correctly it costs 5 t res. Also commanders frequently drop 10+ res worth of meds during important battles. I'd love to be able to do that as an alien comm.
Comments
I disagree that it was the whole idea, but I'd be open to you providing some evidence that it was the case (like a dev forum post or something). In my mind the drifters construct mechanic seems a legacy RTS feature in that it was asymmetrical but equivalent to the marine's construct mechanics. That's just my opinion and I can't back it up with a reference though. After the introduction of cysts & infestation the drifter mechanic is somewhat of a duplication of effort.
If your goal is to create a time sink for the kham, I would much rather see the return of slow building cysts than drifters being involved in the construction process. But I'm not particularly interested in either.
B206 was when the change came in and Charlie talked about it for the first 1m of this video:
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/UiuDux3Kq8M"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/UiuDux3Kq8M" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Never find a shortage of things to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure I watch and tell the team marine movement, but its frustrating to always be in a position where I know marine movements but unable to respond to it. All I can do is hope the team listens and reacts. I am so busy informing teammates of enemy movements, I don't often do much individual guidance besides vague orders "take x room", "gorge here now" or "defend x harvester".
It is the opposite for the marine commander. You are unaware of enemy movements, but you are entirely active in issuing orders to teammates and directly supporting them.
Alien commander feels like I am a chat show host.
Marine commander feels like I am an actual leader.
Maybe its just the mentality of alien players, not following orders in pubs as well as marines do. Part of this probably is just from NS1, aliens living without a commander. However alien commander still feels not entirely necessary. Marines have a symbiotic relationship, where every marine is needed to build, attack and achieve goals. The commander directly supports these goals. As alien commander, all I can really do is talk and build on my own. Only lategame adrenaline and occasional spikes get me engaged.
This ^
Fast second hive allows more 'spawn coverage' (yeah okay I made that up) ... futher disrupting marine control of the map ... maybe its still early days and people find that cele first is better than cara first if no quick second hive?
Marine comms spend a lot of time just watching marines and giving out ammo / meds / nano shield when a marine needs them. His digression can win and lose games, and you always want him in the game looking for times when he can change the out come of a pivotal battle with a few meds.
Alien comm doesn't need to do this at all, he can't really provide much support. I wonder if there are additional ways he could provide support in a manner that is similar, but different from the marine commander? For example making infestation spikes available from the start, or being able to deploy a buff to aliens on infestation etc...
Also I feel like mist should be usable on structures to speed construction, and give players or buildings a heal over time...
Marine comms spend a lot of time just watching marines and giving out ammo / meds / nano shield when a marine needs them. His digression can win and lose games, and you always want him in the game looking for times when he can change the out come of a pivotal battle with a few meds.
Alien comm doesn't need to do this at all, he can't really provide much support. I wonder if there are additional ways he could provide support in a manner that is similar, but different from the marine commander? For example making infestation spikes available from the start, or being able to deploy a buff to aliens on infestation etc...
Also I feel like mist should be usable on structures to speed construction, and give players or buildings a heal over time...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Speeding up structure construction is a messy kettle of fish, after seeing how nanoconstruct went. I can only see mist speeding up buildings if it prevented gorges from helping - so for 2 res the commander could replace the gorges building efforts. Either gorge or mist, not both.
On other abilities for the commander to support with, yes I think he needs more. However extending his hand beyond the infestation will probably appear strange. Drifters cannot use abilities without decloaking anymore, which means they die in a few shots. Either make the tougher, or give them cloak back.
Then:
<ul><li>Infestation spikes at all times, no 2 hive requirement. Marines don't need two bases for nano.</li><li>Give alien commander camo ability. Can target and grant camouflage to anyone for a few seconds, to aid ambushes or escapes. Or even help defend an RT by hiding it from a passer by. 3 res.</li><li>Give alien commander regeneration ability. Can target a structure or player to grant regeneration temporarily, and only if out of combat. 5 res.</li><li>Give alien commander celerity ability. Affects all aliens on map, good for boosting speed for rushes and running to save a hive. 10 res.</li></ul>
Something like that, each unlocking based on which hive chamber is bought. Sort of diminishes alien structures, but marine commanders build armouries all the time to prevent spamming abilities which do the same thing.
In all honesty I think its ridiculous that an armoury costs 10 res, does so much to aid a marine team, while a crag costs 15 res and does nearly nothing. Need 3+ crags to setup a comparable healing station. The key difference is crags heal structures (poorly).
I think that are some really good ideas here. At least it gets more clear, that the alien com needs more support abilities to make him more interesting.
<ul><li>Infestation spikes at all times, no 2 hive requirement. Marines don't need two bases for nano.</li><li>Give alien commander camo ability. Can target and grant camouflage to anyone for a few seconds, to aid ambushes or escapes. Or even help defend an RT by hiding it from a passer by. 3 res.</li><li>Give alien commander regeneration ability. Can target a structure or player to grant regeneration temporarily, and only if out of combat. 5 res.</li><li>Give alien commander celerity ability. Affects all aliens on map, good for boosting speed for rushes and running to save a hive. 10 res.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While those are some interesting suggestions, the problem in my opinion is the cost. Its easy to drop down a 2 or 3 res assist in a time of need, but 10 res, or even 5 res? That's the entire cost of a resource tower right there in one click. I'm not saying it isn't worth it. Speeding up an entire team sounds very formidable, and 10 res is probably a fair price, maybe even too fair. However the problem is in the mind of the player. They are sacrificing a lot of resources on something that is very risky, in the sense that its being applied to players that could die straight away. The attack could go wrong, people may not follow orders, ect. Its a big risk for so much res, which is why these abilities are usually made more powerful, or much cheaper than they should be. Eventually you get a situation where commanders are willing to use the ability, but when the ability works well, it works far too well, and is actually overpowered.
I dunno, big abilities like that don't usually sit well in games like this. However, I am all for the addition of more, smaller assist like features. I especially like the idea of gaining different assists based on the kind of hive upgrade you take.
I dunno, big abilities like that don't usually sit well in games like this. However, I am all for the addition of more, smaller assist like features. I especially like the idea of gaining different assists based on the kind of hive upgrade you take.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I suppose the regeneration should be cheaper. I was trying to keep it expensive so there is a reason to build crags. Fully healing an onos or fade would be worth it for 5 res, not a skulk.