I think the problem, if there is one, lies in the skill gap between shotgun and skulk. In order to bridge that gap skulks are given an upgrade like carapace, silence, or celerity. Shotguns are more accessible but it still boils down the players' skill level.
Not enough skulks utilize their incredible z-axis movement. We as a player base have really mostly only experienced left-right aiming FPS' with expected z-axis changes (usually due to map design). With a skulk his z-axis can be changed at will and only the better players can track AND shoot. I've just started to get back into this game and I do considerably better than most people by just running up walls and coming back down for a bite(s) against superior foes. You can usually just run around on the ceiling til they reload.
But again, it's player skill that determines most outcomes of soldier confrontations. Shotguns are amazing in the right hands and a waste of res in another, same applies to lifeforms.
<!--quoteo(post=1967098:date=Aug 27 2012, 11:07 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Aug 27 2012, 11:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967098"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is probably one of the biggest problems with NS2 compared to NS1 imo...
The fact that it isn't even economically that big a deal for marines to equip up to two entire 5 man squads of pure shotgun anytime they want in the game. There's no timing when the res becomes available to make such an investment, just a one time randomly chosen relatively cheap upgrade and massive shotgun spam.
Having to decide between upgrades/tech and more equipment is one of the things I miss the most.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would be interesting to see what happened if starting res is set to 0 instead. Aliens delayed in higher lifeforms, marines delayed in shotguns. As marine commander its more debatable if you want W1 or shotguns.
<!--quoteo(post=1967120:date=Aug 27 2012, 02:21 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Aug 27 2012, 02:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967120"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Would be interesting to see what happened if starting res is set to 0 instead. Aliens delayed in higher lifeforms, marines delayed in shotguns. As marine commander its more debatable if you want W1 or shotguns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the central problem identified here is the relative importance of personal resources. As an alien, your pres is always in your mind. When can I go lerk, when can I go fade. You even way up the pros and cons of going gorge, and spending that 10 res, because it is a big deal. As marine, I hardly ever look at my pres. It never really matters to me. When I can't afford something, I'm not filled with dread that I will not be able to help my team, I'm just a bit bummed that I can't get the upgrade I wanted.
At the moment, pres just isn't a big deal to marines, but it means everything to aliens.
initial research -> 10 pellets/shot, damage/pellet 12 <ul><!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->vs non cara skulk (accuracy of shot req'd): w0: 8 pellets (80%) vs current 6 pellets (60%) w1: 7 pellets (70%) vs current 5 pellets (50%) w2: 7 pellets (70%) vs current 5 pellets (50%) w3: 6 pellets (60%) vs current 5 pellets (50%) vs cara skulk w0: 11 (110%) vs 8 (80%) w1: 10 (100%) vs 7 (70%) w2: 10 (100%) vs 7 (70%) w3: 9 (90%) vs 6 (60%) vs non cara lerk w0: 15 (150%) vs 11 (110%) w1: 14 (140%) vs 10 (100%) w2: 13 (130%) vs 9 (90%) w3: 12 (120%) vs 8 (80%) vs cara lerk w0: 23 (230%) vs 17 (170%) w1: 21 (210%) vs 15 (150%) w2: 20 (200%) vs 14 (140%) w3: 18 (180%) vs 13 (130%)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></li></ul> advanced armory upgrade -> 14 pellets/shot. <ul><!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->vs non cara skulk w0: 8 pellets (57%) vs current 6 pellets (60%) w1: 7 pellets (50%) vs current 5 pellets (50%) w2: 7 pellets (50%) vs current 5 pellets (50%) w3: 6 pellets (43%) vs current 5 pellets (50%) vs cara skulk w0: 11 (79%) vs 8 (80%) w1: 10 (71%) vs 7 (70%) w2: 10 (71%) vs 7 (70%) w3: 9 (64%) vs 6 (60%) vs non cara lerk w0: 15 (107%) vs 11 (110%) w1: 14 (100%) vs 10 (100%) w2: 13 (93%) vs 9 (90%) w3: 12 (86%) vs 8 (80%) vs cara lerk w0: 23 (164%) vs 17 (170%) w1: 21 (150%) vs 15 (150%) w2: 20 (143%) vs 14 (140%) w3: 18 (129%) vs 13 (130%)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></li></ul>
<!--quoteo(post=1967087:date=Aug 27 2012, 09:35 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Aug 27 2012, 09:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967087"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I say, isnt that what the lerk is f..... oh wait.
*edit* any real problems with skulks not scaling well against equally skilled shotgunners is a problem with the mismatch between real skulk movement potential and model size.
Roughly the same low level of air control and speed profile as ns1 (without excessive walljumpsploiting) but considerably bigger model size. Hard to predict, but i'm guessing 217 may see overall winrates shift marine-side as a result of carapace numbers going back to normal and shotguns finally being able to one shot reliably.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually it is worse then that because you have waaaay less air control in NS2 then NS1. Although wall walking in NS2 is amazingly good, much better than in NS1
Lerks do get spikes first next patch without research... but yeah, that 30 pres. I can see the issue you see with a full team going immediate shotguns and then they can also all afford them straight away. A performance increase could even make it a bigger deal than it is, too.
<!--quoteo(post=1967123:date=Aug 27 2012, 12:43 PM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Aug 27 2012, 12:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967123"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->0 would mean no gorges or upgrades for a very long time..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1967086:date=Aug 27 2012, 09:15 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Aug 27 2012, 09:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967086"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If only, but we don't.
As for ambushing shotgunners. This game is too fast paced for that. If you are sitting somewhere, waiting for a player to come along, then you are a detriment to your team. You can wait, while they take the rest of the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really?
Find Marines. Figure out where they're going. Hide above their heads in the next room. Profit.
SG are stupidly overpowered but good luck swinging people to nerf marines.
As others have touched on you are seeing SG up by about 4-5 min of almost every game and packs of marines moving about. The issue with SG's was not there in NS1 due to the 1 res pool (no P res), so the real cause of the issue is the adding of the P res for marines and the influx this allows of weapons. With a good team buying a SG is no major issue as if you die your team mates can pick it up, this means 1 persons investment can be shared amongst other marines. The failed attack and heavy loss of life does not mean loss of resources (when aliens die it does).
Solutions simple, marines cant share weapons (can share welders) as they have a safety system and are created for that marines only (to avoid risk of enemy using your weapon against you). This would bring it on par with the alien upgrades (higher lifeforms) which cant be shared and are totally lost. This will mean there is more of a risk to getting the weapons and greater return for investment for aliens killing the SG'er. In NS1 sharing made sense as you had only 1 pool of resources, so that SG was at expense of an RT or forward base etc. So if marines want to go the SG rush then their res investment should only stay alive as long as they are, die and you know thats lost res (like aliens when they die as a higher lifeform). Now before you all go off saying no its not fair remember that this is already in place for JP's and we can presume Exo's (as this was the case in NS1). Any weapons dropped by the comm could be shareable but this might be confusing (unless are a different colour).
I think alot of it is just skill stacking. Like someone else said a good player or two can really make a huge difference especially with all the framerate/lag issues.
It doesn't seem overpowered to me though, the only range where it's a 1 shot kill is when a skulk is on top of you
I think if you nerf it you risk making the fade too powerful mid game.
Maybe make it only able to be picked up a certain amount of times though?
Find Marines. Figure out where they're going. Hide above their heads in the next room. Profit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
>Find Marines
You've already failed at your ambush. Any decent NS player will hear you from two rooms away. Unless you are going to locate the marines, then run the other way around the map to cut them off at the pass, you will be found out.
<!--quoteo(post=1967247:date=Aug 28 2012, 08:58 AM:name=iKossu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iKossu @ Aug 28 2012, 08:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967247"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This rings a bell so here's a task for you. Use the following words to make a meaningful sentence: NS1, early, rush, shotgun.
But seriously though, some nerfing should be considered but not before 217 is out and people have played it for a few days.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shotgun rushes were not a problem in NS1. Not at all.
It's actually tricky situation. You need to be able to one-shot skulks with shotgun, but same time shotgun is indeed too cheap (or too early). If you can't one-shot with the shotgun, it leads to gameplay where one shotgun marine always lose against two decent skulks. By decent I mean skulks who can sync their movement with each other. There is nothing more frustrating than to die, even if you did everything perfectly. If you can't one-shot skulks, it leads this kind of gameplay. Of course this problem already exist in NS1 in form of one marine vs. fade situations, but in NS1 marines could dodge swipes, which allowed marine a chance to kill full hp fade even with only lmg+pistol.
One the best thing in NS1 was, that in theory one marine could kill whole alien team (6vs6) alone. It was really hard, almost impossible but it happened sometimes. One the biggest problem of NS2 lies here; NS2 doesn't allow that much individual skill. Think about basketball: Kobe Bryant can win games at highest level by his individual performance, but still those teams win NBA who has best teamwork. That is also requirement for e-sport video games.
Once again a problem lies in aliens not in marines. Instead of nerfing shotgun, UWE should decrease wall hopping speed but increase basic strafing speed for skulks. Strafing was the best way dodging shotgun bullets in NS1, but in NS2 strafing is just way too slow to have any use. Then again the shotgun isn't totally overpowered, because you can always counter shotguns by teamwork, but I think it's a bit too cheap. But whatever UWE decide to do for shotgun, one-shot ability is must!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One the biggest problem of NS2 lies here; NS2 doesn't allow that much individual skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Play against Joe!, eh or Fana and I think you will be disagreeing with this statement.
Looking at these and other top players' ns2stats (www.ns2stats.org) you'll see that they are about equal parts LMG and shotgun users - presumably because they have to use LMGs until shotguns are researched. When your accuracy and timing skills get to a certain point, the shotgun becomes a logical choice (these folks don't even seem to use grenade launchers or flamethrowers) because of the massive one-shot damage they are capable of. They are the surefire way to take down gorges, lerks and skulks, and against greedy fades as well.
People should step a little bit back and look at the whole picture. The SG is a jack of all trades. The only downside, that it is weak (not useless!) at distance is literally not existent. Even a lerk with spikes lose against a marine with a shotgun.
Having such a weapon without a real counter is the problem. It should be good against certain life forms, but therefor bad against others. This simply isn't the case. It is a very good skulk killer, a very good lerk killer, a very good fade killer (only topped by the flamer) and even against onos, not to mention the poor gorge.
This weapon is such an overall-good-deal, that people start arguing of how it should work when you start playing rambo with it. When you have 1 SG against 2 skulks the marine should be able to win? Srsly? I always thought, that marines should always use teamwork to win. While aliens can work together, but don't have such an advantage by using teamplay like marines. This asynchrony comes naturally with melee vs ranged. More marines can easy cover each other and shoot together on one alien doing +100% damage for every additional marine. Aliens are forced to melee. While it is good to have some distraction, it is very difficult to attack one target together, because of clipping with team mates and the nature of melee battle. All in all, teamplay doesn't help aliens this much. This has to be accounted when talking about this in a symmetric view.
I think the SG should get a counter. Either it should be good against higher life forms like lerk, fade, onos but bad against skulks or it should be good against skulks but not good against fade and onos. Thinking of the new exo, the second way seems to be more logical and can be achieved by changing the damage-typ back to light and in exchange increase the overall damage. On the other hand it is very frustrating to get one-shotted as skulk. To a point where you don't know what you did wrong. Even if you ambush a SG marine, there are people that just turn around and shoot you in the face, before you are even thinking of getting your second bite in. While this people are also good with the LMG it doesn't feel that unfair.
I dont think Tane has ever heard of Fana :D But his point is 100% valid, NS2 greatly reduces the importance of individual skill, and focuses much more on teamwork.
The shotgun is the lifeform killing weapon, if countered by a lifeform then you basically make it completely useless... Is a fade bad at killing certain kinds of marines?
<!--quoteo(post=1967415:date=Aug 28 2012, 08:49 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Aug 28 2012, 08:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967415"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This weapon is such an overall-good-deal, that people start arguing of how it should work when you start playing rambo with it. When you have 1 SG against 2 skulks the marine should be able to win? Srsly? I always thought, that marines should always use teamwork to win. While aliens can work together, but don't have such an advantage by using teamplay like marines. This asynchrony comes naturally with melee vs ranged. More marines can easy cover each other and shoot together on one alien doing +100% damage for every additional marine. Aliens are forced to melee. While it is good to have some distraction, it is very difficult to attack one target together, because of clipping with team mates and the nature of melee battle. All in all, teamplay doesn't help aliens this much. This has to be accounted when talking about this in a symmetric view.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nope. It's always been opposite in every melee vs. range game there has been. It's actually the most fundamental element in range vs. melee games that melee side always needs more teamwork. I should know, I have played three most popular melee vs. range game at highest level. It's almost hilarious that some people think marines need more teamwork than aliens.
Another marine doesn't increase firepower 100%, because marines block each other's shooting angles (the most important thing in every FPS game), in fact random players decrease good players firepower on public. That is reason for ramboing, because good marines are better alone than with normal public players.
I'm too tired list every argument about common knowledge, so I just violate every argument theory and mostly use my authority to convince you.
Its good that one person can kill an entire team? What the ###### kind of games are you playing? That is the most typical COD kiddie gamer thing to say. If a single person can take on 6 others and win, the game is borked and not worth playing. That is the central problem with the shotgun in the early game. It allows you to massively overpower superior numbers.
Here's a test. If you give someone with absolutely impeccable aim an object, which then allows them to take on more than about 3 people, that object needs nerfing. I don't care if you're a goddamn robot with an aimbot, numbers should count for more.
Do not forget what game we are playing here. This isn't COD or BF or CS. This is Natural Selection. If simply being good at aiming allows you to take out the entire enemy team single handedly, then whats the point in making any mode other than co_?
<!--quoteo(post=1967439:date=Aug 29 2012, 12:26 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Aug 29 2012, 12:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967439"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sorry, but what...
Its good that one person can kill an entire team? What the ###### kind of games are you playing? That is the most typical COD kiddie gamer thing to say. If a single person can take on 6 others and win, the game is borked and not worth playing. That is the central problem with the shotgun in the early game. It allows you to massively overpower superior numbers.
Here's a test. If you give someone with absolutely impeccable aim an object, which then allows them to take on more than about 3 people, that object needs nerfing. I don't care if you're a goddamn robot with an aimbot, numbers should count for more.
Do not forget what game we are playing here. This isn't COD or BF or CS. This is Natural Selection. If simply being good at aiming allows you to take out the entire enemy team single handedly, then whats the point in making any mode other than co_?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1967435:date=Aug 28 2012, 04:24 PM:name=Tane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tane @ Aug 28 2012, 04:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967435"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nope. It's always been opposite in every melee vs. range game there has been. It's actually the most fundamental element in range vs. melee games that melee side always needs more teamwork.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I couldn't disagree more. Teamwork benefits marines more than aliens. <- claimed by authority ;) <!--quoteo(post=1967435:date=Aug 28 2012, 04:24 PM:name=Tane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tane @ Aug 28 2012, 04:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967435"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I should know, I have played three most popular melee vs. range game at highest level. It's almost hilarious that some people think marines need more teamwork than aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And its very sad that you are trying so hard to fulfill the stereotypes of a typical comp-player. <!--quoteo(post=1967435:date=Aug 28 2012, 04:24 PM:name=Tane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tane @ Aug 28 2012, 04:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967435"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another marine doesn't increase firepower 100%, because marines block each other's shooting angles (the most important thing in every FPS game), in fact random players decrease good players firepower on public. That is reason for ramboing, because good marines are better alone than with normal public players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe not 100% but sure 95%. It was to explain better, that marines benefit more from teamplay than aliens. I had never problems to aim at a skulk that runs around the feet of another marine. <!--quoteo(post=1967435:date=Aug 28 2012, 04:24 PM:name=Tane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tane @ Aug 28 2012, 04:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967435"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm too tired list every argument about common knowledge, so I just violate every argument theory and mostly use my authority to convince you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You should have known, that this never works. And being a "high level player of anything" doesn't give you authority. It just make you look arrogant, while you are trying to cling to a SG with no downsides so you can stroke your ego while ramboing with the SG. <- Facts claimed by my authority. ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1967497:date=Aug 28 2012, 08:57 AM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Aug 28 2012, 08:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967497"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can you list the reasons why teamwork benefits ranged side more than the melee? I honestly dont understand how can you possibly think that to be true.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it is easier for ranged players to focus fire a target and to clear enemies that are meleeing your friends.
The first point means two Marines can snipe a single target more effectively than a pair of Skulks. Marines spread out and focus down one target. The Skulks would have to bunch up and both get hit by sprayed bullets while focusing their target.
The second point is probably the most important. Instead of gaining a sizeable advantage when getting into melee range, the Aliens actually expose themselves to the other Marine's fire by staying close to their target. This isn't universally true of course. I used to intentionally use other Marines as bullet shields while zipping around as a Skulk. Mmmm 1v4 wipes and skill gaps showing.
It was common knowledge in NS1 that 1v1 unupgraded, a Skulk could usually come out ahead (especially via ambushing) except in the highest tiers of play. But in 2v2 Marines would come out ahead. Marine power grows exponentially wtih more members in the squad. Aliens grow only linearly.
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
<!--quoteo(post=1967502:date=Aug 28 2012, 06:05 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Aug 28 2012, 06:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967502"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was common knowledge in NS1 that 1v1 unupgraded, a Skulk could usually come out ahead (especially via ambushing) except in the highest tiers of play. But in 2v2 Marines would come out ahead. Marine power grows exponentially wtih more members in the squad. Aliens grow only linearly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you needed 25 skulks to match 5 marines? How have I missed this piece of common knowledge?
Comments
Not enough skulks utilize their incredible z-axis movement. We as a player base have really mostly only experienced left-right aiming FPS' with expected z-axis changes (usually due to map design). With a skulk his z-axis can be changed at will and only the better players can track AND shoot. I've just started to get back into this game and I do considerably better than most people by just running up walls and coming back down for a bite(s) against superior foes. You can usually just run around on the ceiling til they reload.
But again, it's player skill that determines most outcomes of soldier confrontations. Shotguns are amazing in the right hands and a waste of res in another, same applies to lifeforms.
The fact that it isn't even economically that big a deal for marines to equip up to two entire 5 man squads of pure shotgun anytime they want in the game. There's no timing when the res becomes available to make such an investment, just a one time randomly chosen relatively cheap upgrade and massive shotgun spam.
Having to decide between upgrades/tech and more equipment is one of the things I miss the most.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would be interesting to see what happened if starting res is set to 0 instead. Aliens delayed in higher lifeforms, marines delayed in shotguns. As marine commander its more debatable if you want W1 or shotguns.
Aliens would lose every game.
As marine, I hardly ever look at my pres. It never really matters to me. When I can't afford something, I'm not filled with dread that I will not be able to help my team, I'm just a bit bummed that I can't get the upgrade I wanted.
At the moment, pres just isn't a big deal to marines, but it means everything to aliens.
initial research -> 10 pellets/shot, damage/pellet 12
<ul><!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->vs non cara skulk (accuracy of shot req'd):
w0: 8 pellets (80%) vs current 6 pellets (60%)
w1: 7 pellets (70%) vs current 5 pellets (50%)
w2: 7 pellets (70%) vs current 5 pellets (50%)
w3: 6 pellets (60%) vs current 5 pellets (50%)
vs cara skulk
w0: 11 (110%) vs 8 (80%)
w1: 10 (100%) vs 7 (70%)
w2: 10 (100%) vs 7 (70%)
w3: 9 (90%) vs 6 (60%)
vs non cara lerk
w0: 15 (150%) vs 11 (110%)
w1: 14 (140%) vs 10 (100%)
w2: 13 (130%) vs 9 (90%)
w3: 12 (120%) vs 8 (80%)
vs cara lerk
w0: 23 (230%) vs 17 (170%)
w1: 21 (210%) vs 15 (150%)
w2: 20 (200%) vs 14 (140%)
w3: 18 (180%) vs 13 (130%)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></li></ul>
advanced armory upgrade -> 14 pellets/shot.
<ul><!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->vs non cara skulk
w0: 8 pellets (57%) vs current 6 pellets (60%)
w1: 7 pellets (50%) vs current 5 pellets (50%)
w2: 7 pellets (50%) vs current 5 pellets (50%)
w3: 6 pellets (43%) vs current 5 pellets (50%)
vs cara skulk
w0: 11 (79%) vs 8 (80%)
w1: 10 (71%) vs 7 (70%)
w2: 10 (71%) vs 7 (70%)
w3: 9 (64%) vs 6 (60%)
vs non cara lerk
w0: 15 (107%) vs 11 (110%)
w1: 14 (100%) vs 10 (100%)
w2: 13 (93%) vs 9 (90%)
w3: 12 (86%) vs 8 (80%)
vs cara lerk
w0: 23 (164%) vs 17 (170%)
w1: 21 (150%) vs 15 (150%)
w2: 20 (143%) vs 14 (140%)
w3: 18 (129%) vs 13 (130%)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></li></ul>
*edit*
any real problems with skulks not scaling well against equally skilled shotgunners is a problem with the mismatch between real skulk movement potential and model size.
Roughly the same low level of air control and speed profile as ns1 (without excessive walljumpsploiting) but considerably bigger model size. Hard to predict, but i'm guessing 217 may see overall winrates shift marine-side as a result of carapace numbers going back to normal and shotguns finally being able to one shot reliably.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually it is worse then that because you have waaaay less air control in NS2 then NS1. Although wall walking in NS2 is amazingly good, much better than in NS1
Ok 10 res then.
As for ambushing shotgunners. This game is too fast paced for that. If you are sitting somewhere, waiting for a player to come along, then you are a detriment to your team. You can wait, while they take the rest of the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really?
Find Marines. Figure out where they're going. Hide above their heads in the next room. Profit.
Find Marines. Figure out where they're going. Hide above their heads in the next room. Profit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then you just have to hit min 2 bites and a parasite before they can hit you.
As others have touched on you are seeing SG up by about 4-5 min of almost every game and packs of marines moving about.
The issue with SG's was not there in NS1 due to the 1 res pool (no P res), so the real cause of the issue is the adding of the P res for marines and the influx this allows of weapons.
With a good team buying a SG is no major issue as if you die your team mates can pick it up, this means 1 persons investment can be shared amongst other marines. The failed attack and heavy loss of life does not mean loss of resources (when aliens die it does).
Solutions simple, marines cant share weapons (can share welders) as they have a safety system and are created for that marines only (to avoid risk of enemy using your weapon against you).
This would bring it on par with the alien upgrades (higher lifeforms) which cant be shared and are totally lost. This will mean there is more of a risk to getting the weapons and greater return for investment for aliens killing the SG'er.
In NS1 sharing made sense as you had only 1 pool of resources, so that SG was at expense of an RT or forward base etc.
So if marines want to go the SG rush then their res investment should only stay alive as long as they are, die and you know thats lost res (like aliens when they die as a higher lifeform).
Now before you all go off saying no its not fair remember that this is already in place for JP's and we can presume Exo's (as this was the case in NS1).
Any weapons dropped by the comm could be shareable but this might be confusing (unless are a different colour).
It doesn't seem overpowered to me though, the only range where it's a 1 shot kill is when a skulk is on top of you
I think if you nerf it you risk making the fade too powerful mid game.
Maybe make it only able to be picked up a certain amount of times though?
Find Marines. Figure out where they're going. Hide above their heads in the next room. Profit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
>Find Marines
You've already failed at your ambush. Any decent NS player will hear you from two rooms away. Unless you are going to locate the marines, then run the other way around the map to cut them off at the pass, you will be found out.
This rings a bell so here's a task for you. Use the following words to make a meaningful sentence:
NS1,
early,
rush,
shotgun.
But seriously though, some nerfing should be considered but not before 217 is out and people have played it for a few days.
NS1,
early,
rush,
shotgun.
But seriously though, some nerfing should be considered but not before 217 is out and people have played it for a few days.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shotgun rushes were not a problem in NS1. Not at all.
One the best thing in NS1 was, that in theory one marine could kill whole alien team (6vs6) alone. It was really hard, almost impossible but it happened sometimes. One the biggest problem of NS2 lies here; NS2 doesn't allow that much individual skill. Think about basketball: Kobe Bryant can win games at highest level by his individual performance, but still those teams win NBA who has best teamwork. That is also requirement for e-sport video games.
Once again a problem lies in aliens not in marines. Instead of nerfing shotgun, UWE should decrease wall hopping speed but increase basic strafing speed for skulks. Strafing was the best way dodging shotgun bullets in NS1, but in NS2 strafing is just way too slow to have any use. Then again the shotgun isn't totally overpowered, because you can always counter shotguns by teamwork, but I think it's a bit too cheap. But whatever UWE decide to do for shotgun, one-shot ability is must!
Play against Joe!, eh or Fana and I think you will be disagreeing with this statement.
Looking at these and other top players' ns2stats (www.ns2stats.org) you'll see that they are about equal parts LMG and shotgun users - presumably because they have to use LMGs until shotguns are researched. When your accuracy and timing skills get to a certain point, the shotgun becomes a logical choice (these folks don't even seem to use grenade launchers or flamethrowers) because of the massive one-shot damage they are capable of. They are the surefire way to take down gorges, lerks and skulks, and against greedy fades as well.
Having such a weapon without a real counter is the problem. It should be good against certain life forms, but therefor bad against others. This simply isn't the case. It is a very good skulk killer, a very good lerk killer, a very good fade killer (only topped by the flamer) and even against onos, not to mention the poor gorge.
This weapon is such an overall-good-deal, that people start arguing of how it should work when you start playing rambo with it. When you have 1 SG against 2 skulks the marine should be able to win? Srsly? I always thought, that marines should always use teamwork to win. While aliens can work together, but don't have such an advantage by using teamplay like marines.
This asynchrony comes naturally with melee vs ranged. More marines can easy cover each other and shoot together on one alien doing +100% damage for every additional marine. Aliens are forced to melee. While it is good to have some distraction, it is very difficult to attack one target together, because of clipping with team mates and the nature of melee battle. All in all, teamplay doesn't help aliens this much. This has to be accounted when talking about this in a symmetric view.
I think the SG should get a counter. Either it should be good against higher life forms like lerk, fade, onos but bad against skulks or it should be good against skulks but not good against fade and onos. Thinking of the new exo, the second way seems to be more logical and can be achieved by changing the damage-typ back to light and in exchange increase the overall damage. On the other hand it is very frustrating to get one-shotted as skulk. To a point where you don't know what you did wrong. Even if you ambush a SG marine, there are people that just turn around and shoot you in the face, before you are even thinking of getting your second bite in. While this people are also good with the LMG it doesn't feel that unfair.
But his point is 100% valid, NS2 greatly reduces the importance of individual skill, and focuses much more on teamwork.
The shotgun is the lifeform killing weapon, if countered by a lifeform then you basically make it completely useless... Is a fade bad at killing certain kinds of marines?
This asynchrony comes naturally with melee vs ranged. More marines can easy cover each other and shoot together on one alien doing +100% damage for every additional marine. Aliens are forced to melee. While it is good to have some distraction, it is very difficult to attack one target together, because of clipping with team mates and the nature of melee battle. All in all, teamplay doesn't help aliens this much. This has to be accounted when talking about this in a symmetric view.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope. It's always been opposite in every melee vs. range game there has been. It's actually the most fundamental element in range vs. melee games that melee side always needs more teamwork. I should know, I have played three most popular melee vs. range game at highest level. It's almost hilarious that some people think marines need more teamwork than aliens.
Another marine doesn't increase firepower 100%, because marines block each other's shooting angles (the most important thing in every FPS game), in fact random players decrease good players firepower on public. That is reason for ramboing, because good marines are better alone than with normal public players.
I'm too tired list every argument about common knowledge, so I just violate every argument theory and mostly use my authority to convince you.
Its good that one person can kill an entire team? What the ###### kind of games are you playing? That is the most typical COD kiddie gamer thing to say. If a single person can take on 6 others and win, the game is borked and not worth playing. That is the central problem with the shotgun in the early game. It allows you to massively overpower superior numbers.
Here's a test. If you give someone with absolutely impeccable aim an object, which then allows them to take on more than about 3 people, that object needs nerfing. I don't care if you're a goddamn robot with an aimbot, numbers should count for more.
Do not forget what game we are playing here. This isn't COD or BF or CS. This is Natural Selection. If simply being good at aiming allows you to take out the entire enemy team single handedly, then whats the point in making any mode other than co_?
Its good that one person can kill an entire team? What the ###### kind of games are you playing? That is the most typical COD kiddie gamer thing to say. If a single person can take on 6 others and win, the game is borked and not worth playing. That is the central problem with the shotgun in the early game. It allows you to massively overpower superior numbers.
Here's a test. If you give someone with absolutely impeccable aim an object, which then allows them to take on more than about 3 people, that object needs nerfing. I don't care if you're a goddamn robot with an aimbot, numbers should count for more.
Do not forget what game we are playing here. This isn't COD or BF or CS. This is Natural Selection. If simply being good at aiming allows you to take out the entire enemy team single handedly, then whats the point in making any mode other than co_?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What are you smoking? I want some
I couldn't disagree more. Teamwork benefits marines more than aliens. <- claimed by authority ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1967435:date=Aug 28 2012, 04:24 PM:name=Tane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tane @ Aug 28 2012, 04:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967435"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I should know, I have played three most popular melee vs. range game at highest level. It's almost hilarious that some people think marines need more teamwork than aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And its very sad that you are trying so hard to fulfill the stereotypes of a typical comp-player.
<!--quoteo(post=1967435:date=Aug 28 2012, 04:24 PM:name=Tane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tane @ Aug 28 2012, 04:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967435"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another marine doesn't increase firepower 100%, because marines block each other's shooting angles (the most important thing in every FPS game), in fact random players decrease good players firepower on public. That is reason for ramboing, because good marines are better alone than with normal public players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe not 100% but sure 95%. It was to explain better, that marines benefit more from teamplay than aliens. I had never problems to aim at a skulk that runs around the feet of another marine.
<!--quoteo(post=1967435:date=Aug 28 2012, 04:24 PM:name=Tane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tane @ Aug 28 2012, 04:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967435"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm too tired list every argument about common knowledge, so I just violate every argument theory and mostly use my authority to convince you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You should have known, that this never works. And being a "high level player of anything" doesn't give you authority. It just make you look arrogant, while you are trying to cling to a SG with no downsides so you can stroke your ego while ramboing with the SG. <- Facts claimed by my authority. ;)
Because it is easier for ranged players to focus fire a target and to clear enemies that are meleeing your friends.
The first point means two Marines can snipe a single target more effectively than a pair of Skulks. Marines spread out and focus down one target. The Skulks would have to bunch up and both get hit by sprayed bullets while focusing their target.
The second point is probably the most important. Instead of gaining a sizeable advantage when getting into melee range, the Aliens actually expose themselves to the other Marine's fire by staying close to their target. This isn't universally true of course. I used to intentionally use other Marines as bullet shields while zipping around as a Skulk. Mmmm 1v4 wipes and skill gaps showing.
It was common knowledge in NS1 that 1v1 unupgraded, a Skulk could usually come out ahead (especially via ambushing) except in the highest tiers of play. But in 2v2 Marines would come out ahead. Marine power grows exponentially wtih more members in the squad. Aliens grow only linearly.
So you needed 25 skulks to match 5 marines? How have I missed this piece of common knowledge?