<!--quoteo(post=1967503:date=Aug 28 2012, 09:11 AM:name=Zeikko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zeikko @ Aug 28 2012, 09:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you needed 25 skulks to match 5 marines? How have I missed this piece of common knowledge?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*facepalm*
Excellent Reductio ad absurdum there.
It isn't perfectly exponentially. I was using "exponential" to note that Marine power grow faster than linearly. Somewhere around ^1.2 is my estimate, but obviously player skills throw a huge wrench in all that. See my example of 1v4 as an upgraded Skulk against Marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1967502:date=Aug 28 2012, 07:05 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Aug 28 2012, 07:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967502"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because it is easier for ranged players to focus fire a target and to clear enemies that are meleeing your friends.
The first point means two Marines can snipe a single target more effectively than a pair of Skulks. Marines spread out and focus down one target. The Skulks would have to bunch up and both get hit by sprayed bullets while focusing their target.
The second point is probably the most important. Instead of gaining a sizeable advantage when getting into melee range, the Aliens actually expose themselves to the other Marine's fire by staying close to their target. This isn't universally true of course. I used to intentionally use other Marines as bullet shields while zipping around as a Skulk. Mmmm 1v4 wipes and skill gaps showing.
It was common knowledge in NS1 that 1v1 unupgraded, a Skulk could usually come out ahead (especially via ambushing) except in the highest tiers of play. But in 2v2 Marines would come out ahead. Marine power grows exponentially wtih more members in the squad. Aliens grow only linearly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doesnt that just tell us that we need more teamwork from the melee side to handle the situation? I dont really agree with marine power growing exponentially in numbers due to blocking each others movement/firing lines/bullets. It helps to have marine or 2 helping you, but it quickly starts to diminish heavily.
More aliens creating a bigger target for marines. More bullets hit. This gets even more bad, when the aliens focus on one marine. Its easier to hit a bunch of skulks than a single skulk. Also its simpler to hit a skulk that runs around another marine than one that focuses you. Marines have steady damage output (even with the sg, compared to a skulk). So having a fight in a group of marines will always be bad for aliens. A group of aliens just create a bigger or more targets to hit.
Don't get me wrong, teamplay can be powerful even as alien. But compared to the marines it isn't the same level. Thats why you nearly always see marines being grouped together even in pubs and aliens more often straying around alone.
Anyway. I don't like it, that this single point is taken from my statement, while the point that the sg has no real counter / downside is ignored.
More aliens creating a bigger target for marines. More bullets hit. This gets even more bad, when the aliens focus on one marine. Its easier to hit a bunch of skulks than a single skulk. Also its simpler to hit a skulk that runs around another marine than one that focuses you. Marines have steady damage output (even with the sg, compared to a skulk). So having a fight in a group of marines will always be bad for aliens. A group of aliens just create a bigger or more targets to hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which means that youre going to need more and more aliens/more teamwork from the aliens to be able to take out those marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1967511:date=Aug 28 2012, 09:22 AM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Aug 28 2012, 09:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967511"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Doesnt that just tell us that we need more teamwork from the melee side to handle the situation? I dont really agree with marine power growing exponentially in numbers due to blocking each others movement/firing lines/bullets. It helps to have marine or 2 helping you, but it quickly starts to diminish heavily.
Well, true. It doesn't mean you NEED more teamwork. But Marines tend to scale much faster, and therefore benefit more from teamwork than the Aliens. And due to positive feedback, this meant Marines would rely on squads of 2-3 to take most objectives.
As for firing lines, yes assuming poor player skill. But front members ducking, good dodging to force the Aliens into the middle, and so on help magnify the Marine power growth. A death squad of 4 Marines in NS1 were usually only stopped with higher lifeforms. Also, by the time more Marines give diminishing returns, a similar number of Aliens are also giving dimishing returns. You can only pack so many hitboxes together before Marines don't even have to aim. As long as they have bullets, they'll hit something at that point.
Obviously good play on either side can tip this. A good ambush from multiple angles will help the aliens handle more Marines. Coming down a hallway? Ends even worse for the Aliens. Good open area for visibility and firing lines helps Marines. Upgrades, better tech/weapons, previous harassment, all are factors into an engagement. It's what made NS1 so glorious. The asymmetry meant so many little factors coupled with your skill to exploit them influenced each little fight.
@elmo: No. That means that "killing a fade needs more than one marine" is actually not a problem and can't be countered with "but the SG should need more than one skulk to get killed."
<!--quoteo(post=1967511:date=Aug 28 2012, 06:22 PM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Aug 28 2012, 06:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967511"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Doesnt that just tell us that we need more teamwork from the melee side to handle the situation? I dont really agree with marine power growing exponentially in numbers due to blocking each others movement/firing lines/bullets. It helps to have marine or 2 helping you, but it quickly starts to diminish heavily.
When was the last time your line of fire was blocked by a teammate in ns2? All you would need is a ray trace of 5 marines firing, compared to 5 skulks biting. The more marines you add, the more total area is covered by bullets. It doesn't matter how many skulks you have though, if you want to focus fire, all the bites are in the exact same place, so their is essentially no benefit.
Even in the ridiculous case of 5 marines vs 25 skulks, the marines would probably do some very heavy damage. Easily enough damage to kill 10-15 skulks. The other side of the equation is how vulnerable skulks are in groups. Marines don't have this problem.
<!--quoteo(post=1967522:date=Aug 28 2012, 09:39 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Aug 28 2012, 09:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967522"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyway. I don't like it, that this single point is taken from my statement, while the point that the sg has no real counter / downside is ignored.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
BACK ON TOPIC!!!
The Shogun is slowly falling into the same niche it had in NS1, which is a superior weapon in all regards to the LMG. The only downside being the res cost and discrete chunks of damage. The discrete chunks of damage being a benefit as well (yay shotguns to the face).
Does it need an explicit counter? I'm not sure. Since this is ranged versus melee, they will have to get into melee range eventually at which point shotguns shine the most. So, fundamentally, the shotguns disavantage is nullified.
This is made worse with Lerks in NS2. In NS1 they did well against Shogunners by gassing from afar and whittling them down. Now they have to crop duster and bite them (are spikes being moved up the tech tree?). Fades doing good hit-and-runs with Focus were also the classic counter to Shotgunners. Can't unload since you're dead instantly.
So, I'd agree they have no downside right now. However, I think this may be by design. The next question then is whether this is good design.
Youre repeating over and over again how smaller number of marines>higher number of skulks, which is true, hence why you need more teamwork to be able to kill the marines. Or are you going to send in one skulk and hes suddenly more powerfull than 5 because hes harder to hit than a blop of five skulks?
@necro: Dont forget that marines scale aswell with resource investments.
<!--quoteo(post=1967534:date=Aug 28 2012, 09:53 AM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Aug 28 2012, 09:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967534"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Youre repeating over and over again how smaller number of marines>higher number of skulks, which is true, hence why you need more teamwork to be able to kill the marines. Or are you going to send in one skulk and hes suddenly more powerfull than 5 because hes harder to hit than a blop of five skulks?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you're saying Aliens need to employ above average teamwork over being more of them in an engagement to counter the inherent power growth of Marines working in squads? OK, sure. I agree with that.
<!--quoteo(post=1967538:date=Aug 28 2012, 07:58 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Aug 28 2012, 07:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967538"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you're saying Aliens need to employ above average teamwork over being more of them in an engagement to counter the inherent power growth of Marines working in squads? OK, sure. I agree with that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, due to the inherent advantage that ranged has over melee. So yes, we are at an agreement.
<!--quoteo(post=1967534:date=Aug 28 2012, 06:53 PM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Aug 28 2012, 06:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967534"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Youre repeating over and over again how smaller number of marines>higher number of skulks, which is true, hence why you need more teamwork to be able to kill the marines. Or are you going to send in one skulk and hes suddenly more powerfull than 5 because hes harder to hit than a blop of five skulks?
@necro: Dont forget that marines scale aswell with resource investments.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, you don't "need more teamwork". With perfectly balanced teams, the marines will always win in numbers. "More teamwork" would imply the aliens are better than the marines, in which case that is a pretty poor scenario to discuss balance in.
The strength of aliens comes in speed, not strength in numbers, while marines are stronger in groups, but are harder to organise. Well, that WAS true in NS1. From an NS1 perspective, marines were stronger in groups, but keeping them in groups had unwanted side affects. For example, you cover less of the map. Also, because aliens were not as strong in numbers, they needed to outnumber the advancing marines. This wasn't a problem, because of the aliens advanced speed and mobility. If the marines are coming with 5, the aliens just assemble 6 quickly to combat them.
In NS2, this is no longer true. Marines are essentially just as fast as aliens, but their force multiplier still stacks like crazy. This is why marines can typically just waltz into a hive room and take it down. They are just too fast and too powerful in numbers. They need to be slowed down or aliens need to be sped up.
<!--quoteo(post=1967067:date=Aug 27 2012, 11:17 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Aug 27 2012, 11:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967067"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems like it happens randomly, but seems to happen in 50% of all cases when marines win. People say its just a visual bug, but I'm not so sure. A bug like that shouldn't exist unless they mixed the marines win/marines lose sprites around.
Either way it doesn't really matter. I think the main reason the balance of this patch is anywhere close to 50/50 is because of how overpowered the gorge's bilebomb is. When you combine this with how mind numbingly useless the gorge is in public play, and how viable it is in organised play, you get a massive disparity between the two.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have seen gorges win many pub games, stop being elitist.
But sprint does make me sad, imo it has no buisness even being in the same building as NS2 never mind actually IN ns2. Frikking marines should not be able to keep up with a non-celerity skulk.
Also watching you people trying to quantify something as nebulous as teamwork is highly amusing, sort of like watching people try to catch fog with butterfly nets.
What if the hydra got the old lerk spore (controlled by the khammander)? Then gorges hydras would be more useful and the khammander would have something to activate that's ranged, offensive, AoE, area denial & sensory(sight) inhibitor. The hydra model might need to change to incorporate something that looks like a spore cloud distributor.
I'm just thinking back to NS1 shotgun rushes.. a lerk used to be able to spore so that skulks had an easier time mopping up.. sure, marines still won every now and then but only if the commander healed & gave ammo properly, and the marines took down enough skulks to get them in spawn queue. Right now the lerk is suicidal in comparison.. which isn't even a bad thing because a gorge in a shotgun rush would have been a detriment (only able to spit & attempt to heal the hive), but if spores were added to hydra the gorge at least provided a useful area denial ability, while the new lerk can abuse the confusion the spore cloud makes and do crop dust flybys. Then all you'd need is skulks with alien vision to take down anyone caught in the fog. If possible, make the flamethrower clear spores. Also, still allow the hydra to use their spikes.
<!--quoteo(post=1967566:date=Aug 28 2012, 07:32 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Aug 28 2012, 07:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In build 216 of NS2. In 217 everything will probably change, and in 218 it will all probably change again.
There's not much point railing around trying too hard to fix things at this point, as it is in a constant state of flux.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How else do you decide what direction to take the changes in without analysing the current build? Or do you think they just make changes randomly, not taking anything that happened in the previous iteration into account?
Comments
*facepalm*
Excellent Reductio ad absurdum there.
It isn't perfectly exponentially. I was using "exponential" to note that Marine power grow faster than linearly. Somewhere around ^1.2 is my estimate, but obviously player skills throw a huge wrench in all that. See my example of 1v4 as an upgraded Skulk against Marines.
The first point means two Marines can snipe a single target more effectively than a pair of Skulks. Marines spread out and focus down one target. The Skulks would have to bunch up and both get hit by sprayed bullets while focusing their target.
The second point is probably the most important. Instead of gaining a sizeable advantage when getting into melee range, the Aliens actually expose themselves to the other Marine's fire by staying close to their target. This isn't universally true of course. I used to intentionally use other Marines as bullet shields while zipping around as a Skulk. Mmmm 1v4 wipes and skill gaps showing.
It was common knowledge in NS1 that 1v1 unupgraded, a Skulk could usually come out ahead (especially via ambushing) except in the highest tiers of play. But in 2v2 Marines would come out ahead. Marine power grows exponentially wtih more members in the squad. Aliens grow only linearly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doesnt that just tell us that we need more teamwork from the melee side to handle the situation? I dont really agree with marine power growing exponentially in numbers due to blocking each others movement/firing lines/bullets. It helps to have marine or 2 helping you, but it quickly starts to diminish heavily.
EDIT: badly worded
More aliens creating a bigger target for marines. More bullets hit. This gets even more bad, when the aliens focus on one marine. Its easier to hit a bunch of skulks than a single skulk. Also its simpler to hit a skulk that runs around another marine than one that focuses you.
Marines have steady damage output (even with the sg, compared to a skulk). So having a fight in a group of marines will always be bad for aliens. A group of aliens just create a bigger or more targets to hit.
Don't get me wrong, teamplay can be powerful even as alien. But compared to the marines it isn't the same level. Thats why you nearly always see marines being grouped together even in pubs and aliens more often straying around alone.
Anyway. I don't like it, that this single point is taken from my statement, while the point that the sg has no real counter / downside is ignored.
More aliens creating a bigger target for marines. More bullets hit. This gets even more bad, when the aliens focus on one marine. Its easier to hit a bunch of skulks than a single skulk. Also its simpler to hit a skulk that runs around another marine than one that focuses you.
Marines have steady damage output (even with the sg, compared to a skulk). So having a fight in a group of marines will always be bad for aliens. A group of aliens just create a bigger or more targets to hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which means that youre going to need more and more aliens/more teamwork from the aliens to be able to take out those marines.
EDIT: badly worded<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, true. It doesn't mean you NEED more teamwork. But Marines tend to scale much faster, and therefore benefit more from teamwork than the Aliens. And due to positive feedback, this meant Marines would rely on squads of 2-3 to take most objectives.
As for firing lines, yes assuming poor player skill. But front members ducking, good dodging to force the Aliens into the middle, and so on help magnify the Marine power growth. A death squad of 4 Marines in NS1 were usually only stopped with higher lifeforms. Also, by the time more Marines give diminishing returns, a similar number of Aliens are also giving dimishing returns. You can only pack so many hitboxes together before Marines don't even have to aim. As long as they have bullets, they'll hit something at that point.
Obviously good play on either side can tip this. A good ambush from multiple angles will help the aliens handle more Marines. Coming down a hallway? Ends even worse for the Aliens. Good open area for visibility and firing lines helps Marines. Upgrades, better tech/weapons, previous harassment, all are factors into an engagement. It's what made NS1 so glorious. The asymmetry meant so many little factors coupled with your skill to exploit them influenced each little fight.
EDIT: badly worded<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When was the last time your line of fire was blocked by a teammate in ns2? All you would need is a ray trace of 5 marines firing, compared to 5 skulks biting. The more marines you add, the more total area is covered by bullets. It doesn't matter how many skulks you have though, if you want to focus fire, all the bites are in the exact same place, so their is essentially no benefit.
Even in the ridiculous case of 5 marines vs 25 skulks, the marines would probably do some very heavy damage. Easily enough damage to kill 10-15 skulks. The other side of the equation is how vulnerable skulks are in groups. Marines don't have this problem.
BACK ON TOPIC!!!
The Shogun is slowly falling into the same niche it had in NS1, which is a superior weapon in all regards to the LMG. The only downside being the res cost and discrete chunks of damage. The discrete chunks of damage being a benefit as well (yay shotguns to the face).
Does it need an explicit counter? I'm not sure. Since this is ranged versus melee, they will have to get into melee range eventually at which point shotguns shine the most. So, fundamentally, the shotguns disavantage is nullified.
This is made worse with Lerks in NS2. In NS1 they did well against Shogunners by gassing from afar and whittling them down. Now they have to crop duster and bite them (are spikes being moved up the tech tree?). Fades doing good hit-and-runs with Focus were also the classic counter to Shotgunners. Can't unload since you're dead instantly.
So, I'd agree they have no downside right now. However, I think this may be by design. The next question then is whether this is good design.
@necro: Dont forget that marines scale aswell with resource investments.
So you're saying Aliens need to employ above average teamwork over being more of them in an engagement to counter the inherent power growth of Marines working in squads? OK, sure. I agree with that.
Yeah, due to the inherent advantage that ranged has over melee. So yes, we are at an agreement.
@necro: Dont forget that marines scale aswell with resource investments.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, you don't "need more teamwork". With perfectly balanced teams, the marines will always win in numbers. "More teamwork" would imply the aliens are better than the marines, in which case that is a pretty poor scenario to discuss balance in.
The strength of aliens comes in speed, not strength in numbers, while marines are stronger in groups, but are harder to organise. Well, that WAS true in NS1. From an NS1 perspective, marines were stronger in groups, but keeping them in groups had unwanted side affects. For example, you cover less of the map. Also, because aliens were not as strong in numbers, they needed to outnumber the advancing marines. This wasn't a problem, because of the aliens advanced speed and mobility. If the marines are coming with 5, the aliens just assemble 6 quickly to combat them.
In NS2, this is no longer true. Marines are essentially just as fast as aliens, but their force multiplier still stacks like crazy. This is why marines can typically just waltz into a hive room and take it down. They are just too fast and too powerful in numbers. They need to be slowed down or aliens need to be sped up.
Kill all sons of ######?
No, wait, that's Ellis from L4D2
Either way it doesn't really matter. I think the main reason the balance of this patch is anywhere close to 50/50 is because of how overpowered the gorge's bilebomb is. When you combine this with how mind numbingly useless the gorge is in public play, and how viable it is in organised play, you get a massive disparity between the two.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have seen gorges win many pub games, stop being elitist.
But sprint does make me sad, imo it has no buisness even being in the same building as NS2 never mind actually IN ns2. Frikking marines should not be able to keep up with a non-celerity skulk.
Also watching you people trying to quantify something as nebulous as teamwork is highly amusing, sort of like watching people try to catch fog with butterfly nets.
In build 216 of NS2. In 217 everything will probably change, and in 218 it will all probably change again.
There's not much point railing around trying too hard to fix things at this point, as it is in a constant state of flux.
I'm just thinking back to NS1 shotgun rushes.. a lerk used to be able to spore so that skulks had an easier time mopping up.. sure, marines still won every now and then but only if the commander healed & gave ammo properly, and the marines took down enough skulks to get them in spawn queue. Right now the lerk is suicidal in comparison.. which isn't even a bad thing because a gorge in a shotgun rush would have been a detriment (only able to spit & attempt to heal the hive), but if spores were added to hydra the gorge at least provided a useful area denial ability, while the new lerk can abuse the confusion the spore cloud makes and do crop dust flybys. Then all you'd need is skulks with alien vision to take down anyone caught in the fog. If possible, make the flamethrower clear spores. Also, still allow the hydra to use their spikes.
There's not much point railing around trying too hard to fix things at this point, as it is in a constant state of flux.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How else do you decide what direction to take the changes in without analysing the current build? Or do you think they just make changes randomly, not taking anything that happened in the previous iteration into account?