Gorges don't need bilebomb
Ejquinn
Join Date: 2012-01-25 Member: 141995Members
Join Date: 2012-01-25 Member: 141995Members
The last few games of mine have reverted back to the same old gorge suicide rushes. This is a problem. Both teams are pretty evenly matched, then suddenly the aliens have three or so players who just keep going gorge and rushing our base and or forward base with bile bomb rushes. They do a ton of damage to the buildings, die, then do it again. This is stupid and takes the fun and skill out of the game. Gorge should be a builder class, they shouldn't be this powerful.
Comments
What I think may be necessary is more of an "attack speed" associated with bile bomb. At the moment you can just run around and basically fire them off like an automatic. I think if the bile bomb had a slower fire rate, and maybe caused a slowdown period after use, that would create the need for more coordinated and less random attacks.
All it takes is that the marines have a little map awareness and that a few of them phase back to base and kill them/repair base. If nothing but a few gorges are allowed to actually do serious damage to a base then it's the marines own fault. At least that is my experience.
What I think may be necessary is more of an "attack speed" associated with bile bomb. At the moment you can just run around and basically fire them off like an automatic. I think if the bile bomb had a slower fire rate, and maybe caused a slowdown period after use, that would create the need for more coordinated and less random attacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I have been around since alpha when all we had to shoot was targets. Gorges don't need it, it was fine when Lerks had it. What Gorges need is more to do building, but even then people will whine and cry because they want to play battle gorge.
<!--quoteo(post=1969804:date=Sep 1 2012, 03:25 PM:name=KaptajnKLO)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KaptajnKLO @ Sep 1 2012, 03:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969804"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All it takes is that the marines have a little map awareness and that a few of them phase back to base and kill them/repair base. If nothing but a few gorges are allowed to actually do serious damage to a base then it's the marines own fault. At least that is my experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
map awareness does no good. If a couple gorges keep it up you are going to need a good few guys contantly killing and welding them. Then all it takes is one mistake, or dead marine, or simply one lucky opportunity and a gorge just practically won the game.
So your complaint is that gorges are ravaging your base with bilebombs, and you want to instead give it to lerks? Explain your reasoning.
Lerks cost much more. Gorges can just keep suicide bombing the base. Back when Lerks had bile this was not a problem, it was annoying and did damage, yes, but it was more of a fly by bombing. It was not nearly the same problem.
Probably Lerk because of the higher res cost.
The gorge is fine, like he is right now. Suicide squads are a symptom that the marine team isn't putting enough pressure on the alien team in the late phase of a game in combination with turtling.
The only damage multiplier then becomes a direct hit from each Gorge, who must expose themselves to get those bombs off.
The gorge is fine, like he is right now. Suicide squads are a symptom that the marine team isn't putting enough pressure on the alien team in the late phase of a game in combination with turtling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This^. Or a last ditch effort by a lone alien while the aliens defend the last hive.
The gorge is fine, like he is right now. Suicide squads are a symptom that the marine team isn't putting enough pressure on the alien team in the late phase of a game in combination with turtling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, it's not. Not when you are in a good game that is pretty evenly matched. Those are fun, the yare entertaining, but then a gorge just suicides over and over till they get lucky.
<!--quoteo(post=1969811:date=Sep 1 2012, 03:53 PM:name=greenpee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (greenpee @ Sep 1 2012, 03:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969811"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So when the gorge already doesn't really have much to do, you want to take away an option for him? A no offensive capability gorge is a useless gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
read what I wrote, they should be a builder, give them more to do as such, and players should also be healing. Only an idiot would think gorge is useless without bile bomb.
The gorge is fine, like he is right now. Suicide squads are a symptom that the marine team isn't putting enough pressure on the alien team in the late phase of a game in combination with turtling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. Gorge suicide squads only appear if marines have failed to push aliens beyond setting up outside their base.
When the lerk has bile bomb, none of these things are an issue. At any time, 3 or so lerks can just be like "I want to ravage marine spawn". And in 5 seconds, they will be in marine spawn dropping bile bomb after bile bomb. I mean, if you think the bile bombs are bad with gorge, when they are on lerk it is just rediculous. Imagine that bile bomb just falling from the sky, launched by something that you can't really shoot down with out a full squad of marines in spawn.
When the lerk has bile bomb, none of these things are an issue. At any time, 3 or so lerks can just be like "I want to ravage marine spawn". And in 5 seconds, they will be in marine spawn dropping bile bomb after bile bomb. I mean, if you think the bile bombs are bad with gorge, when they are on lerk it is just rediculous. Imagine that bile bomb just falling from the sky, launched by something that you can't really shoot down with out a full squad of marines in spawn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, what you get is a skulk running just outside base, hiding, going gorge, then running in ###### ###### up. If he does it over and over, as these people do, it does a lot of damage and pulls 3 or 4 players off the front. The Lerks were rarely a problem, and when they were it was more due to the messed up hit box they had.
The only damage multiplier then becomes a direct hit from each Gorge, who must expose themselves to get those bombs off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, basically. While I do think Gorges might be a bit too powerful with bilebomb right now, I also think they can't take another nerf. The real problem is +3 gorges rushing your base - if you don't beacon the very second they're there and kill them all, your base is going down. Infact, even if you beacon, it's still probably going down, but atleast you'll be able to save something.
If you'd limit the stacks to say 2 biles that already would help immensely.
There's your problem right there. Someone should have picked that skulk up on motion and immediately taken him out. Problem solved.
The only damage multiplier then becomes a direct hit from each Gorge, who must expose themselves to get those bombs off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1969834:date=Sep 1 2012, 04:37 PM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Sep 1 2012, 04:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969834"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This, basically. While I do think Gorges might be a bit too powerful with bilebomb right now, I also think they can't take another nerf. The real problem is +3 gorges rushing your base - if you don't beacon the very second they're there and kill them all, your base is going down. Infact, even if you beacon, it's still probably going down, but atleast you'll be able to save something.
If you'd limit the stacks to say 2 biles that already would help immensely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If they can balance it so that such a lost cost evolution can't destroy a base then I am fine, however I still think Gorges should be geared toward building and support, not combat.
<!--quoteo(post=1969837:date=Sep 1 2012, 04:39 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 1 2012, 04:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969837"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's your problem right there. Someone should have picked that skulk up on motion and immediately taken him out. Problem solved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, except they probably did the first time or two, but then he got lucky. So no, problem is not solved.
If you'd limit the stacks to say 2 biles that already would help immensely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would agree with that.
An undefended base is not a safe base. You want to prevent this? Post a marine permanently in spawn. He will hear the gorge coming from a mile away and dispatch him. Is the gorge escorted? Post 2 marines. You don't want to sit in base protecting it? Then you must suffer the consequences.
A defended base isn't even a safe base when it comes to grenade launchers and hive rooms. You can't take away the aliens only method of recourse.
One thing I will say is a bit disheartening is the whole inevitability of it all. When three gorges get in your base, you know you are going to take some losses. But consider is from the aliens point of view. One grenade launcher will take out every upgrade you have, and will make quick work of the rest of your structures as well. Except a grenade launcher marine is a powerful offensive tool, whereas a gorge is not.
A defended base isn't even a safe base when it comes to grenade launchers and hive rooms. You can't take away the aliens only method of recourse.
One thing I will say is a bit disheartening is the whole inevitability of it all. When three gorges get in your base, you know you are going to take some losses. But consider is from the aliens point of view. One grenade launcher will take out every upgrade you have, and will make quick work of the rest of your structures as well. Except a grenade launcher marine is a powerful offensive tool, whereas a gorge is not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, that marine will end up killing him, but not after the gorge has tossed bile bombs all over your base, and before that one marine can get it all repaired, the gorge is back, this time doing much more damage because that marine wasn't ready. Now you have the comm trying to bring someone in to help and it goes to ###### from there, because one gorge with such a powerful ability.
It's a problem.
It's a problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't you think the scenario you just outlined would be fast worse with a lerk? The marine probably wouldn't be able to kill the lerk, and even if he did get close, the lerk would just leave when on low HP. Undoubtedly more bile bombs would have been dropped, and the lerk would be back in a fraction of the time, to continue bile bombing.
Lerk doesn't cost 10 res, and would not be able to put as much bile bomb down. Lerks would always just do a fly by and shoot one or two bile bombs. It was annoying, but was never enough to win the aliens the game.
Sorry if this is mean but I intend to be blunt... Your an idiot. Bile bomb is the only hale-marry the aliens have, it does not always work. It is the only weapon aliens have that target structures... Where as mariens have arcs/GL/flame/and now mech which can all level an alien strong hold.
So if we loss bile bomb then what? Fades sit their and camp IP's since they are to busy killing instead of destroying...
Thats because when the lerk had bile, it was far far weaker. Mechanically its far harder to kill a lerk. Gorges who use bile are practically committing suicide in order to devastate marine defences and structures. Any good marine will chase down and kill the gorge immediately, a good team will all turn and kill that gorge instantly.
And seriously, gorge is a boring enough class with bilebomb. You are sucking the fun out of the game if you remove it.
Why would the lerk shoot one or two bile bombs, exactly? When I did it, I shot bile bombs until I could shoot no more, or until my health was getting low. I did not suddenly get bored of devastating the marine base. I kept doing it until there was no marine base, or I was a skulk again.
If you gave the current bile bomb to lerks, the marines would lose the game as soon as aliens got the second hive.
Sorry if this is mean but I intend to be blunt... Your an idiot. Bile bomb is the only hale-marry the aliens have, it does not always work. It is the only weapon aliens have that target structures... Where as mariens have arcs/GL/flame/and now mech which can all level an alien strong hold.
So if we loss bile bomb then what? Fades sit their and camp IP's since they are to busy killing instead of destroying...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you trying to be retarded, I'm going to assume you are. You just compared 3 fully upgraded marines jetting around a base with JPs and Gls to a gorge with just bile bomb. Then tried to act like it's a legit argument. Fade wreck bases anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1969855:date=Sep 1 2012, 05:33 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Sep 1 2012, 05:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969855"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thats because when the lerk had bile, it was far far weaker. Mechanically its far harder to kill a lerk. Gorges who use bile are practically committing suicide in order to devastate marine defences and structures. Any good marine will chase down and kill the gorge immediately, a good team will all turn and kill that gorge instantly.
And seriously, gorge is a boring enough class with bilebomb. You are sucking the fun out of the game if you remove it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes, and I am saying to revert BACK to when Lerk had bile, it worked great. Gorge works fine as a builder and healer, just give him more to build.
<!--quoteo(post=1969858:date=Sep 1 2012, 05:38 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 1 2012, 05:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969858"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why would the lerk shoot one or two bile bombs, exactly? When I did it, I shot bile bombs until I could shoot no more, or until my health was getting low. I did not suddenly get bored of devastating the marine base. I kept doing it until there was no marine base, or I was a skulk again.
If you gave the current bile bomb to lerks, the marines would lose the game as soon as aliens got the second hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
because anyone who tried that got killed quickly. Then 30 res is gone.
Killed by who? Are you saying its harder to kill a gorge than it is to kill a lerk? I'm sorry but you are being very inconsistent here. If the gorge cannot be prevented from doing moderate damage to the marine spawn, then a lerk will dismantle it. Lerks are infinitely harder to kill and infinitely more mobile. Bare in mind, that while the lerk flies around, he will have the same bile bomb the gorge has. That bile bomb will destroy an arms lab in under 15 seconds, and this thing is flying around your base. Its incredibly difficult to take down a lerk that is not actively attacking you, and requires focused firing, from multiple marines.
If the damage is lessened I don't think it's going to make a big deal.. and if BB is reimplemented on lerk I'm just going to go aliens constantly and harass with it because imo is was very powerful..... you could blind marines with spore so your skulk friends take down the marines, then destroy power nodes and buildings while the kham and reinforcing gorge move in to take resources. Yeah, people did still play gorge, watching them though.. it looked boring.. building in the back, then moving in and reinforcing the new room by building.. again, healing fades and lerks. I don't think any change is going to matter.. if you couldn't kill the gorge you aren't going to kill the lerk! Even to kill the lerk, you have to first go find the gorge that's allowing him to escape with 10hp and come back 10 seconds later.
What. A grenade launching, JP marine does a huge amount of damage, mostly due to his ability to survive. GLs do so much damage that alien comms will invest hundreds of Tres on whip spam around hives. Gorges do alot of damage, but die very quickly. Alone all a gorge does is forces marines to weld, a lone JP will kill carapace shells and other upgrades before anyone catches him.
<!--quoteo(post=1969867:date=Sep 1 2012, 07:16 PM:name=Ejquinn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ejquinn @ Sep 1 2012, 07:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969867"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yes, and I am saying to revert BACK to when Lerk had bile, it worked great. Gorge works fine as a builder and healer, just give him more to build.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol no. Healing and building gets dull, being able to destroy bases is alot of fun. Indeed gorges need more to build, but I don't want to lose bile.
<!--quoteo(post=1969867:date=Sep 1 2012, 07:16 PM:name=Ejquinn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ejquinn @ Sep 1 2012, 07:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969867"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->because anyone who tried that got killed quickly. Then 30 res is gone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, they didn't. The bile was weak on lerk, but the lerks themselves never died when doing bombing runs.
If your main argument is that bile bomb should not be on gorge, then you would have to give the exact same bile bomb gorge currently has to the lerk.
However, if your argument is that bile bomb is too powerful, there is no need to switch which life form has it. Rather just tweak the numbers.