<!--quoteo(post=1970031:date=Sep 2 2012, 06:25 AM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Sep 2 2012, 06:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970031"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having the bilebomb on the lerk was tried, and tried for far longer than was reasonable. The problem with bilebomb on the lerk was basically that there exists no way in the game to stop a lerk getting into any marine base and bomb it. This meant that the bilebomb had to be nerfed into uselessness.
There are however many ways to stop gorges from getting into your base. They are slow, they need escort, they can't fly away in an instant. This means that they CAN have an effective bilebomb.
The most effective way to keep Gorges out of range is the GL. One person with a GL will keep any number of gorges from being effective; unless they run away from the first grenade, they will die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh wow, I remember people saying the same thing when Lerk had BB, because guess who had it before that? Gorge, and it didn't work then either. Suicide Gorges are a problem, you don't seem to understand that they have no intention of surviving the rush, they know they will die, the point is before they do they end up doing a to nof damage to base.
You say the gorge should be a builder not a battle unit.
Why the hell would anyone ever play a FPS game as a character that only builds? That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Sure take the bilebomb from the Gorge, and give him his tier 3 weapon instead at 2nd hive, oh wait, Gorgie doesn't even have a tier 3 weapon....
Why not go the whole hog and just remove the gorge from the game full stop?
I certainly wouldn't play a character that could only build weak pitiful structures, and has to run away anytime an enemy player comes near.. which is the gorge now until he gets bilebomb. You are saying make him a full-time boring, useless creature for everyone!!
LoL. Maybe move BileBomb to Tier 3, sure that is a possibility, but damn it, you let a little gorge get all teh way from his base to yours un molested by your team to do damage. The real problem is lack of proper scouting and base defense. The odd gorge getting through and biling is inevitable, but if it is repeatedly happening in the game, why is your team allowing it?
I guess this is a pub problem...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Plenty of people enjoy playing builder/healer classes. Hell if they would buf the gorges building I would do it all the time. I did it in NS1 and enjoyed the hell out of it. Just because you don't like builder class doesn't mean others don't. But no, keep saying a builder class is useless, and never play NS1
it seems that half the people in this thread dont understand what suicide gorging is
How to suicide gorge - For dummies
*after you spawn, evolve some upgrades for your skulk to make it easier to get into position (celerity and/or silence are good)
*move across the map and get near the target marine base you want to hit
* evolve into gorge, make sure your not near an obs as you will be spotted. Make sure you listen and dont evolve if you hear footsteps coming closer, dont attack the marine, let him run past you so you can evolve undetected.
* once you are gorge, rush into the base while bilebombing and jumping around like an idiot, the trick is to get around buildings and use them for cover so you stay alive a little longer. Make sure you dont just hit 1 target, try hit lots of targets while focusing more on particular structure, more structures to repair is a bigger pain in the ass for the marines and will make further suicide runs more effective.
*when you die just rinse repeat. You dont have to hit the same base over and over, you could switch it up some and go after another base. This will keep the marines guessing and force some of their marines to stay and defend their bases
You can do this non stop for the entire game as you will always have enough res to go gorge
<!--quoteo(post=1970091:date=Sep 2 2012, 06:24 PM:name=Ejquinn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ejquinn @ Sep 2 2012, 06:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970091"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But no, keep saying a builder class is useless, and never play NS1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The gorge had Bile Bomb in NS1 and you could play him very offensive, too. But he still is very vulnerable, was in NS1 and is in NS2.
And the point you are still ignoring is, that the whole discussion evolves because of mistakes done by the marine team for which you can't really blame the aliens. I do admit, that the damage may be a bit too high at the moment, but the ability itself is peferct fine as a gorge ability.
Here's an easy solution. Make a simple LUA mod to give make some change you think will balance the game, implement it on your server and get some people to test it out with you. If it turns out that the change you made seems to make the game better (or even if it doesn't), post your results here so the rest of us can benefit from them.
Also. If you give Lerks Bile Bomb, I absolutely promise you, I will become the bane of every marine. The fault with this idea, is that Lerks don't need to suicide rush anything. They just fly into a base, drop a few bombs, and fly away when some marine shows up or a beacon is used. But they don't just fly anywhere, they fly directly to the next base and do it again. Rinse and repeat. You'd be spending all your time running back and forth between bases welding everything. And if you dared leave, in come a couple of lerks to ruin your day.
Bile bomb is fine on gorges. Yes, suicide gorging is annoying. But level 3 shotguns take what, one or two blasts to murder them?
Anyway, you've made your point very vocally, and obviously there's some difference of opinion in the community. The only real solution is to go and test the idea and get some proof.
Also, no offense but you're coming across a bit harshly. Try to ease up a bit.
<!--quoteo(post=1970095:date=Sep 2 2012, 08:51 AM:name=falc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (falc @ Sep 2 2012, 08:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970095"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The gorge had Bile Bomb in NS1 and you could play him very offensive, too. But he still is very vulnerable, was in NS1 and is in NS2.
And the point you are still ignoring is, that the whole discussion evolves because of mistakes done by the marine team for which you can't really blame the aliens. I do admit, that the damage may be a bit too high at the moment, but the ability itself is peferct fine as a gorge ability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ns1 gorge built all the structures and needed all the res he could get ns2 gorge doesnt and so he can spend his res on going gorge over and over after suiciding
bilebomb itself is fine
this thread makes me laugh, it seems everyone forgets why bilebomb was moved to the lerk. Heres a hint, it moved from a 10 res lifeform to a 30 res lifeform
yes they tried to solve suicide gorging by removing bilebomb from the gorge and giving it to the lerk. Yet here we are back at where we started, yet we have new people and forgetful people who still fail to get it ^_^
<!--quoteo(post=1970104:date=Sep 2 2012, 07:06 PM:name=piratedave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (piratedave @ Sep 2 2012, 07:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970104"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ns1 gorge built all the structures and needed all the res he could get<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is one style you could play him, there are a few others especially in the end of a round. ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1970107:date=Sep 2 2012, 11:12 AM:name=falc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (falc @ Sep 2 2012, 11:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970107"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That is one style you could play him, there are a few others especially in the end of a round. ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only time anyone did that was at the very end when Aliens already won, and you spent half the time healing the Onos anyway. You never had suicide rushes of Gorges.
<!--quoteo(post=1970094:date=Sep 2 2012, 10:49 AM:name=piratedave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (piratedave @ Sep 2 2012, 10:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970094"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it seems that half the people in this thread dont understand what suicide gorging is
How to suicide gorge - For dummies
*after you spawn, evolve some upgrades for your skulk to make it easier to get into position (celerity and/or silence are good)
*move across the map and get near the target marine base you want to hit
* evolve into gorge, make sure your not near an obs as you will be spotted. Make sure you listen and dont evolve if you hear footsteps coming closer, dont attack the marine, let him run past you so you can evolve undetected.
* once you are gorge, rush into the base while bilebombing and jumping around like an idiot, the trick is to get around buildings and use them for cover so you stay alive a little longer. Make sure you dont just hit 1 target, try hit lots of targets while focusing more on particular structure, more structures to repair is a bigger pain in the ass for the marines and will make further suicide runs more effective.
*when you die just rinse repeat. You dont have to hit the same base over and over, you could switch it up some and go after another base. This will keep the marines guessing and force some of their marines to stay and defend their bases
You can do this non stop for the entire game as you will always have enough res to go gorge<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, right here. The problem isn't "oh marines messed up", the problem is gorges can just keep doing these suicide rushes because the res is nothing and the damage can be huge.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1970091:date=Sep 2 2012, 05:24 PM:name=Ejquinn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ejquinn @ Sep 2 2012, 05:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970091"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Plenty of people enjoy playing builder/healer classes. Hell if they would buf the gorges building I would do it all the time. I did it in NS1 and enjoyed the hell out of it. Just because you don't like builder class doesn't mean others don't. But no, keep saying a builder class is useless, and never play NS1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Way to rip up what I said, change it's meaning and repost to support yourself.
Who said I don't like builder class? I was Perma-gorge in NS1, but guess what, NS1 Gorge was a tough ######. He would make mincemeat of his NS2 replacement.
I love engineer/medic classes, but I always have a fighting chance in any game as a support class... let's see...
NS1 - Battle Gorge was always there, and a very common role in NS1. Once hives were dropped, battle gorge all the way! TF2 - Medic and Engineers can both fight 1on1 with almost any enemy, I'm not going to mention TFC, as we all know the Medic was the uber class in that game. BattleField series - Yep, I could still fight really well as Medic or Engineer class, no need to panic about coming face to face with an enemy in those games.
I could go on but you get my point. I play Medic/Engineer in EVERY game I play. I love the builder class, FFS I invented a MOD called GorgeCraft where the ONLY aim of the game is building.
What you fail to see, and will probably still fail to see despite my reply, is that there is no substance to the building/healing ability of the Gorge within the game NS2, it has buildings which are of 0 importance to the team, is unable to fight, can heal although regen and forward crags means most team mates don't need you, and if enemies come near to Gorgie, he has to retreat.
To summarise, current Gorge gameplay is look at a structure/player, right click. Whips are better in field structures than hydra's, crags and regen upgrade can replace healspray, to be fair, Bilebomb is the only thing a Gorge has that is unique among the team, all his other abilities overlap with the comm. To remove BileBomb, just shows a complete lack of understanding of how much a mess the Gorge is already in.
If you want rid of BB from teh Gorge, then get rid of the Gorge, as he provides nothing that is unique without BB.
<!--quoteo(post=1970119:date=Sep 2 2012, 12:04 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Sep 2 2012, 12:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970119"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Way to rip up what I said, change it's meaning and repost to support yourself.
Who said I don't like builder class? I was Perma-gorge in NS1, but guess what, NS1 Gorge was a tough ######. He would make mincemeat of his NS2 replacement.
I love engineer/medic classes, but I always have a fighting chance in any game as a support class... let's see...
NS1 - Battle Gorge was always there, and a very common role in NS1. Once hives were dropped, battle gorge all the way! TF2 - Medic and Engineers can both fight 1on1 with almost any enemy, I'm not going to mention TFC, as we all know the Medic was the uber class in that game. BattleField series - Yep, I could still fight really well as Medic or Engineer class, no need to panic about coming face to face with an enemy in those games.
I could go on but you get my point. I play Medic/Engineer in EVERY game I play. I love the builder class, FFS I invented a MOD called GorgeCraft where the ONLY aim of the game is building.
What you fail to see, and will probably still fail to see despite my reply, is that there is no substance to the building/healing ability of the Gorge within the game NS2, it has buildings which are of 0 importance to the team, is unable to fight, can heal although regen and forward crags means most team mates don't need you, and if enemies come near to Gorgie, he has to retreat.
To summarise, current Gorge gameplay is look at a structure/player, right click. Whips are better in field structures than hydra's, crags and regen upgrade can replace healspray, to be fair, Bilebomb is the only thing a Gorge has that is unique among the team, all his other abilities overlap with the comm. To remove BileBomb, just shows a complete lack of understanding of how much a mess the Gorge is already in.
If you want rid of BB from teh Gorge, then get rid of the Gorge, as he provides nothing that is unique without BB.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe you should try reading my other posts then. I won't begin to address the issues about what you said on the other games, seeing as how they are other games, but I will say battle gorge was not all that effective in NS1 unless it had support. In NS2 it doesn't need it because suicide gorge is just that, suicide. As far as building I have said over and over again I support ditching BB in favor of more and better buildings for the gorge. Right now it is not a builder class.
<!--quoteo(post=1970126:date=Sep 2 2012, 08:42 PM:name=Ejquinn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ejquinn @ Sep 2 2012, 08:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970126"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right now it is not a builder class.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since NS2 has an alien commander, he probably never will be as much builder as in NS1.
I would love to have stronger hydras and webs(!), though. In exchange i could live with a bit weaker bile bomb.
ive seen a few people post ideas about giving the gorge a structure/s that either teleport you to a hive or move you between the 2 structures (kind of like the teleporter in tf2)
i think the gorge should keep bilebomb and all he needs is a higher cost (20 res) and 1 or 2 more things he can build so hes more useful
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1970126:date=Sep 2 2012, 07:42 PM:name=Ejquinn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ejquinn @ Sep 2 2012, 07:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970126"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right now it is not a builder class.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you finally recognise the difference between NS1 Gorge and NS2 Gorge?
NS2 Gorge is a completely new character, given some traits of a predecessor, to keep his name (a mistake if you ask me personally). With 2 comms, there can never be a builder class in NS2, it is just role overlap. Gorge has to be more battle inclined in this version, but unfortunately, he is not more battle inclined, in fact he is significantly worse at fighting than his previous incarnation.
As you keep referring to NS1, I was a part of many great Gorge Rushes in NS1, where part of the team just Gorge rushed bases and took them out. The Difference? Assuming I wasn't a Hive Gorge in NS1, I'd be raping and hassling near your base from 4-5mins in. Enough time to drop my 1 RT then move on, begin attack spot building. In NS2, I cannot build a useful forward attack point (need comm for crags etc), and I cannot fight easily, as movement is massively restricted.
Your issue is with suicide rushes. In NS1, the rushes were there, just without the suicide, because that damn Gorge would very rarely die.
<!--quoteo(post=1970127:date=Sep 2 2012, 12:52 PM:name=falc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (falc @ Sep 2 2012, 12:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970127"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since NS2 has an alien commander, he probably never will be as much builder as in NS1.
I would love to have stronger hydras and webs(!), though. In exchange i could live with a bit weaker bile bomb.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1970153:date=Sep 2 2012, 01:43 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Sep 2 2012, 01:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970153"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you finally recognise the difference between NS1 Gorge and NS2 Gorge?
NS2 Gorge is a completely new character, given some traits of a predecessor, to keep his name (a mistake if you ask me personally). With 2 comms, there can never be a builder class in NS2, it is just role overlap. Gorge has to be more battle inclined in this version, but unfortunately, he is not more battle inclined, in fact he is significantly worse at fighting than his previous incarnation.
As you keep referring to NS1, I was a part of many great Gorge Rushes in NS1, where part of the team just Gorge rushed bases and took them out. The Difference? Assuming I wasn't a Hive Gorge in NS1, I'd be raping and hassling near your base from 4-5mins in. Enough time to drop my 1 RT then move on, begin attack spot building. In NS2, I cannot build a useful forward attack point (need comm for crags etc), and I cannot fight easily, as movement is massively restricted.
Your issue is with suicide rushes. In NS1, the rushes were there, just without the suicide, because that damn Gorge would very rarely die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
see <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/2009/8/gorge_reveal" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/2009/8/gorge_reveal</a>
"Being the main builder/healer class and without much offensive power"
The Gorge is the builder, yes he won't be building as much as in NS1, but that doesn't mean his role is gone, let him build weaker structures for support, buff his hydras, make him a better builder/healer. Also, Gorge rushes in NS1 required many gorges together, and failing can ###### up your team. It did not need one gorge suiciding in.
Constantly buying welders, dropping all their weapons and sprinting around killing cysts until someone kills them. Do so much damage to cysts! Welder should be a building/support tool, they shouldn't be this powerful! So op!
Don't get me started on those suicide axers, sprinting around killing all the upgrades! Its so hard to stop them getting into the base! So stoopid! Take out all the fun from the game!
<!--quoteo(post=1970162:date=Sep 2 2012, 02:10 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Sep 2 2012, 02:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970162"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->man i hate those suicide welderers.
Constantly buying welders, dropping all their weapons and sprinting around killing cysts until someone kills them. Do so much damage to cysts! Welder should be a building/support tool, they shouldn't be this powerful! So op!
Don't get me started on those suicide axers, sprinting around killing all the upgrades! Its so hard to stop them getting into the base! So stoopid! Take out all the fun from the game!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See your post looks like it is siding with me, seeing as how welders are not nearly a problem, combined with marine's slow speed. Though your signature indicated you disagree. So either good job agreeing or argue better, I don't know which.
<!--quoteo(post=1970165:date=Sep 2 2012, 02:22 PM:name=falc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (falc @ Sep 2 2012, 02:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970165"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That newspost is 3 years old. 3 years of development, balance changes, experiments and stuff ... and they have led us to the gameplay situation today.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->I hate damn suicide welderers, too.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, the situation of being in a beta with a builder class that doesn't build. The class is the builder/healer, stop trying to make it something it's not.
<!--quoteo(post=1970166:date=Sep 2 2012, 10:23 PM:name=Ejquinn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ejquinn @ Sep 2 2012, 10:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970166"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The class is the builder/healer, stop trying to make it something it's not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1970169:date=Sep 2 2012, 02:34 PM:name=falc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (falc @ Sep 2 2012, 02:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970169"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are just resistant to every argument, if its not compliant with your expectations of the gorge. Thats all. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1970186:date=Sep 2 2012, 03:56 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Sep 2 2012, 03:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970186"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ejquinn the fact of the matter is after 2 years of balance testing bilebomb, it went to the gorge. game, set, match.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fact is the beta testing is not over, and the gorge is a pretty bad class right now. I could make the very same argument that jetpacks must be balanced since we are this far into testing.
<!--quoteo(post=1970220:date=Sep 3 2012, 01:17 AM:name=Ejquinn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ejquinn @ Sep 3 2012, 01:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970220"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fact is the beta testing is not over, and the gorge is a pretty bad class right now. I could make the very same argument that jetpacks must be balanced since we are this far into testing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference is, you are requesting a change that has already been tried, and has been deemed unacceptable. The gorge lost bile bomb, it was given to lerk, and the developers determined that it was not a good fit. If lerk was given bilebomb again, I don't see why they wouldn't come to the exact same conclusion. You may think that bile bomb is better off on the lerk, but the developers think otherwise.
<!--quoteo(post=1970222:date=Sep 2 2012, 05:22 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 2 2012, 05:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970222"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The difference is, you are requesting a change that has already been tried, and has been deemed unacceptable. The gorge lost bile bomb, it was given to lerk, and the developers determined that it was not a good fit. If lerk was given bilebomb again, I don't see why they wouldn't come to the exact same conclusion. You may think that bile bomb is better off on the lerk, but the developers think otherwise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like I said, that same excuse could be used against it. The Bile bomb was on Gorge, then moved to Lerk, they did it because Gorge suicide runs were a problem. They knew it was a problem, and they switched it back. Hell you can take it off Gorge and give Fade acid rocket for all I care.
Anyone still remaining, please abandon the thread. OP is obviously more interested in complaining that the game isn't the way "he" wants it than in any sort of rational discussion. Those who remain, please ensure the ownership of at least one (1) stick to beat said dead horse with.
<!--quoteo(post=1970238:date=Sep 3 2012, 12:07 AM:name=Ejquinn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ejquinn @ Sep 3 2012, 12:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970238"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like I said, that same excuse could be used against it. The Bile bomb was on Gorge, then moved to Lerk, they did it because Gorge suicide runs were a problem. They knew it was a problem, and they switched it back. Hell you can take it off Gorge and give Fade acid rocket for all I care.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i dont think bilebomb is the problem and i dont think removing bilebomb is the solution. But you are right, nothing has been fixed, they tried to solve suicide gorge and yet here we are back at square 1.
The gorge isnt worth more than 10 res in its current form 10 res gorge allows for suicide gorge over and over again
increasing the cost of the gorge will solve the suicide issue (gorges will still suicide just alot less) adding a new structure/ability to the gorge inventory will increase its usefulness and justify a higher cost
<!--quoteo(post=1970114:date=Sep 3 2012, 04:37 AM:name=Ejquinn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ejquinn @ Sep 3 2012, 04:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970114"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only time anyone did that was at the very end when Aliens already won, and you spent half the time healing the Onos anyway. You never had suicide rushes of Gorges.
This, right here. The problem isn't "oh marines messed up", the problem is gorges can just keep doing these suicide rushes because the res is nothing and the damage can be huge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is another thread where the issue of marines pushing into a hive and quickly killing it is discussed....which is more of an actual issue as marines spawn FOR FREE WITH ALL UPGRADES so these suicide rushes dont even cost them 10 RES..heck they are FREE.
In that thread we are not saying ban the tactic....but actually seeing if there is a way to address some of the cause (hydras being useless and lack of MC chamber properties)
You obviously didn't play much NS1...either that or gorge rushes where just an aussie thing (which I doubt) but gorge rushes where often used.
<!--quoteo(post=1970114:date=Sep 3 2012, 03:37 AM:name=Ejquinn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ejquinn @ Sep 3 2012, 03:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970114"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only time anyone did that was at the very end when Aliens already won, and you spent half the time healing the Onos anyway. You never had suicide rushes of Gorges.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. "Gorge Rush" was totally <i>not</i> a thing in NS1. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9rd0Q0csHQ" target="_blank">Totally</a>.
Comments
There are however many ways to stop gorges from getting into your base. They are slow, they need escort, they can't fly away in an instant. This means that they CAN have an effective bilebomb.
The most effective way to keep Gorges out of range is the GL. One person with a GL will keep any number of gorges from being effective; unless they run away from the first grenade, they will die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh wow, I remember people saying the same thing when Lerk had BB, because guess who had it before that? Gorge, and it didn't work then either. Suicide Gorges are a problem, you don't seem to understand that they have no intention of surviving the rush, they know they will die, the point is before they do they end up doing a to nof damage to base.
<!--quoteo(post=1970027:date=Sep 2 2012, 06:07 AM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Sep 2 2012, 06:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970027"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@OP
You say the gorge should be a builder not a battle unit.
Why the hell would anyone ever play a FPS game as a character that only builds? That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Sure take the bilebomb from the Gorge, and give him his tier 3 weapon instead at 2nd hive, oh wait, Gorgie doesn't even have a tier 3 weapon....
Why not go the whole hog and just remove the gorge from the game full stop?
I certainly wouldn't play a character that could only build weak pitiful structures, and has to run away anytime an enemy player comes near.. which is the gorge now until he gets bilebomb. You are saying make him a full-time boring, useless creature for everyone!!
LoL. Maybe move BileBomb to Tier 3, sure that is a possibility, but damn it, you let a little gorge get all teh way from his base to yours un molested by your team to do damage. The real problem is lack of proper scouting and base defense. The odd gorge getting through and biling is inevitable, but if it is repeatedly happening in the game, why is your team allowing it?
I guess this is a pub problem...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Plenty of people enjoy playing builder/healer classes. Hell if they would buf the gorges building I would do it all the time. I did it in NS1 and enjoyed the hell out of it. Just because you don't like builder class doesn't mean others don't. But no, keep saying a builder class is useless, and never play NS1
How to suicide gorge - For dummies
*after you spawn, evolve some upgrades for your skulk to make it easier to get into position (celerity and/or silence are good)
*move across the map and get near the target marine base you want to hit
* evolve into gorge, make sure your not near an obs as you will be spotted. Make sure you listen and dont evolve if you hear footsteps coming closer, dont attack the
marine, let him run past you so you can evolve undetected.
* once you are gorge, rush into the base while bilebombing and jumping around like an idiot, the trick is to get around buildings and use them for cover so you stay alive a little longer. Make sure you dont just hit 1 target, try hit lots of targets while focusing more on particular structure, more structures to repair is a bigger pain in the ass for the marines and will make further suicide runs more effective.
*when you die just rinse repeat. You dont have to hit the same base over and over, you could switch it up some and go after another base. This will keep the marines guessing and force some of their marines to stay and defend their bases
You can do this non stop for the entire game as you will always have enough res to go gorge
The gorge had Bile Bomb in NS1 and you could play him very offensive, too. But he still is very vulnerable, was in NS1 and is in NS2.
And the point you are still ignoring is, that the whole discussion evolves because of mistakes done by the marine team for which you can't really blame the aliens. I do admit, that the damage may be a bit too high at the moment, but the ability itself is peferct fine as a gorge ability.
Also. If you give Lerks Bile Bomb, I absolutely promise you, I will become the bane of every marine. The fault with this idea, is that Lerks don't need to suicide rush anything. They just fly into a base, drop a few bombs, and fly away when some marine shows up or a beacon is used. But they don't just fly anywhere, they fly directly to the next base and do it again. Rinse and repeat. You'd be spending all your time running back and forth between bases welding everything. And if you dared leave, in come a couple of lerks to ruin your day.
Bile bomb is fine on gorges. Yes, suicide gorging is annoying. But level 3 shotguns take what, one or two blasts to murder them?
Anyway, you've made your point very vocally, and obviously there's some difference of opinion in the community. The only real solution is to go and test the idea and get some proof.
Also, no offense but you're coming across a bit harshly. Try to ease up a bit.
And the point you are still ignoring is, that the whole discussion evolves because of mistakes done by the marine team for which you can't really blame the aliens. I do admit, that the damage may be a bit too high at the moment, but the ability itself is peferct fine as a gorge ability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ns1 gorge built all the structures and needed all the res he could get
ns2 gorge doesnt and so he can spend his res on going gorge over and over after suiciding
bilebomb itself is fine
this thread makes me laugh, it seems everyone forgets why bilebomb was moved to the lerk. Heres a hint, it moved from a 10 res lifeform to a 30 res lifeform
yes they tried to solve suicide gorging by removing bilebomb from the gorge and giving it to the lerk. Yet here we are back at where we started, yet we have new people and forgetful people who still fail to get it ^_^
That is one style you could play him, there are a few others especially in the end of a round. ;)
The only time anyone did that was at the very end when Aliens already won, and you spent half the time healing the Onos anyway. You never had suicide rushes of Gorges.
<!--quoteo(post=1970094:date=Sep 2 2012, 10:49 AM:name=piratedave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (piratedave @ Sep 2 2012, 10:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970094"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it seems that half the people in this thread dont understand what suicide gorging is
How to suicide gorge - For dummies
*after you spawn, evolve some upgrades for your skulk to make it easier to get into position (celerity and/or silence are good)
*move across the map and get near the target marine base you want to hit
* evolve into gorge, make sure your not near an obs as you will be spotted. Make sure you listen and dont evolve if you hear footsteps coming closer, dont attack the
marine, let him run past you so you can evolve undetected.
* once you are gorge, rush into the base while bilebombing and jumping around like an idiot, the trick is to get around buildings and use them for cover so you stay alive a little longer. Make sure you dont just hit 1 target, try hit lots of targets while focusing more on particular structure, more structures to repair is a bigger pain in the ass for the marines and will make further suicide runs more effective.
*when you die just rinse repeat. You dont have to hit the same base over and over, you could switch it up some and go after another base. This will keep the marines guessing and force some of their marines to stay and defend their bases
You can do this non stop for the entire game as you will always have enough res to go gorge<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, right here. The problem isn't "oh marines messed up", the problem is gorges can just keep doing these suicide rushes because the res is nothing and the damage can be huge.
Way to rip up what I said, change it's meaning and repost to support yourself.
Who said I don't like builder class? I was Perma-gorge in NS1, but guess what, NS1 Gorge was a tough ######. He would make mincemeat of his NS2 replacement.
I love engineer/medic classes, but I always have a fighting chance in any game as a support class... let's see...
NS1 - Battle Gorge was always there, and a very common role in NS1. Once hives were dropped, battle gorge all the way!
TF2 - Medic and Engineers can both fight 1on1 with almost any enemy, I'm not going to mention TFC, as we all know the Medic was the uber class in that game.
BattleField series - Yep, I could still fight really well as Medic or Engineer class, no need to panic about coming face to face with an enemy in those games.
I could go on but you get my point. I play Medic/Engineer in EVERY game I play. I love the builder class, FFS I invented a MOD called GorgeCraft where the ONLY aim of the game is building.
What you fail to see, and will probably still fail to see despite my reply, is that there is no substance to the building/healing ability of the Gorge within the game NS2, it has buildings which are of 0 importance to the team, is unable to fight, can heal although regen and forward crags means most team mates don't need you, and if enemies come near to Gorgie, he has to retreat.
To summarise, current Gorge gameplay is look at a structure/player, right click. Whips are better in field structures than hydra's, crags and regen upgrade can replace healspray, to be fair, Bilebomb is the only thing a Gorge has that is unique among the team, all his other abilities overlap with the comm. To remove BileBomb, just shows a complete lack of understanding of how much a mess the Gorge is already in.
If you want rid of BB from teh Gorge, then get rid of the Gorge, as he provides nothing that is unique without BB.
FYI, for context, NS2 bilebomb does roughly as much damage as NS1's bilebomb, just spread over time.
70dmg/sec in NS2, double on building armor, so max 140dmg/sec.
200dmg/shot at .67shots/sec = 133dmg/sec
EDIT: Gorges are faster in NS2 if you spit between bilebombs. Or spread it around to more structures.
Who said I don't like builder class? I was Perma-gorge in NS1, but guess what, NS1 Gorge was a tough ######. He would make mincemeat of his NS2 replacement.
I love engineer/medic classes, but I always have a fighting chance in any game as a support class... let's see...
NS1 - Battle Gorge was always there, and a very common role in NS1. Once hives were dropped, battle gorge all the way!
TF2 - Medic and Engineers can both fight 1on1 with almost any enemy, I'm not going to mention TFC, as we all know the Medic was the uber class in that game.
BattleField series - Yep, I could still fight really well as Medic or Engineer class, no need to panic about coming face to face with an enemy in those games.
I could go on but you get my point. I play Medic/Engineer in EVERY game I play. I love the builder class, FFS I invented a MOD called GorgeCraft where the ONLY aim of the game is building.
What you fail to see, and will probably still fail to see despite my reply, is that there is no substance to the building/healing ability of the Gorge within the game NS2, it has buildings which are of 0 importance to the team, is unable to fight, can heal although regen and forward crags means most team mates don't need you, and if enemies come near to Gorgie, he has to retreat.
To summarise, current Gorge gameplay is look at a structure/player, right click. Whips are better in field structures than hydra's, crags and regen upgrade can replace healspray, to be fair, Bilebomb is the only thing a Gorge has that is unique among the team, all his other abilities overlap with the comm. To remove BileBomb, just shows a complete lack of understanding of how much a mess the Gorge is already in.
If you want rid of BB from teh Gorge, then get rid of the Gorge, as he provides nothing that is unique without BB.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe you should try reading my other posts then. I won't begin to address the issues about what you said on the other games, seeing as how they are other games, but I will say battle gorge was not all that effective in NS1 unless it had support. In NS2 it doesn't need it because suicide gorge is just that, suicide. As far as building I have said over and over again I support ditching BB in favor of more and better buildings for the gorge. Right now it is not a builder class.
Since NS2 has an alien commander, he probably never will be as much builder as in NS1.
I would love to have stronger hydras and webs(!), though. In exchange i could live with a bit weaker bile bomb.
i think the gorge should keep bilebomb and all he needs is a higher cost (20 res) and 1 or 2 more things he can build so hes more useful
So you finally recognise the difference between NS1 Gorge and NS2 Gorge?
NS2 Gorge is a completely new character, given some traits of a predecessor, to keep his name (a mistake if you ask me personally). With 2 comms, there can never be a builder class in NS2, it is just role overlap. Gorge has to be more battle inclined in this version, but unfortunately, he is not more battle inclined, in fact he is significantly worse at fighting than his previous incarnation.
As you keep referring to NS1, I was a part of many great Gorge Rushes in NS1, where part of the team just Gorge rushed bases and took them out. The Difference? Assuming I wasn't a Hive Gorge in NS1, I'd be raping and hassling near your base from 4-5mins in. Enough time to drop my 1 RT then move on, begin attack spot building. In NS2, I cannot build a useful forward attack point (need comm for crags etc), and I cannot fight easily, as movement is massively restricted.
Your issue is with suicide rushes. In NS1, the rushes were there, just without the suicide, because that damn Gorge would very rarely die.
I would love to have stronger hydras and webs(!), though. In exchange i could live with a bit weaker bile bomb.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1970153:date=Sep 2 2012, 01:43 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Sep 2 2012, 01:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970153"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you finally recognise the difference between NS1 Gorge and NS2 Gorge?
NS2 Gorge is a completely new character, given some traits of a predecessor, to keep his name (a mistake if you ask me personally). With 2 comms, there can never be a builder class in NS2, it is just role overlap. Gorge has to be more battle inclined in this version, but unfortunately, he is not more battle inclined, in fact he is significantly worse at fighting than his previous incarnation.
As you keep referring to NS1, I was a part of many great Gorge Rushes in NS1, where part of the team just Gorge rushed bases and took them out. The Difference? Assuming I wasn't a Hive Gorge in NS1, I'd be raping and hassling near your base from 4-5mins in. Enough time to drop my 1 RT then move on, begin attack spot building. In NS2, I cannot build a useful forward attack point (need comm for crags etc), and I cannot fight easily, as movement is massively restricted.
Your issue is with suicide rushes. In NS1, the rushes were there, just without the suicide, because that damn Gorge would very rarely die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
see
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/2009/8/gorge_reveal" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/2009/8/gorge_reveal</a>
"Being the main builder/healer class and without much offensive power"
The Gorge is the builder, yes he won't be building as much as in NS1, but that doesn't mean his role is gone, let him build weaker structures for support, buff his hydras, make him a better builder/healer. Also, Gorge rushes in NS1 required many gorges together, and failing can ###### up your team. It did not need one gorge suiciding in.
Constantly buying welders, dropping all their weapons and sprinting around killing cysts until someone kills them. Do so much damage to cysts! Welder should be a building/support tool, they shouldn't be this powerful! So op!
Don't get me started on those suicide axers, sprinting around killing all the upgrades! Its so hard to stop them getting into the base! So stoopid! Take out all the fun from the game!
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/2009/8/gorge_reveal" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/2009/8/gorge_reveal</a>
"Being the main builder/healer class and without much offensive power"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That newspost is 3 years old. 3 years of development, balance changes, experiments and stuff ... and they have led us to the gameplay situation today.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->I hate damn suicide welderers, too.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Constantly buying welders, dropping all their weapons and sprinting around killing cysts until someone kills them. Do so much damage to cysts! Welder should be a building/support tool, they shouldn't be this powerful! So op!
Don't get me started on those suicide axers, sprinting around killing all the upgrades! Its so hard to stop them getting into the base! So stoopid! Take out all the fun from the game!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See your post looks like it is siding with me, seeing as how welders are not nearly a problem, combined with marine's slow speed. Though your signature indicated you disagree. So either good job agreeing or argue better, I don't know which.
<!--quoteo(post=1970165:date=Sep 2 2012, 02:22 PM:name=falc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (falc @ Sep 2 2012, 02:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970165"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That newspost is 3 years old. 3 years of development, balance changes, experiments and stuff ... and they have led us to the gameplay situation today.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->I hate damn suicide welderers, too.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, the situation of being in a beta with a builder class that doesn't build. The class is the builder/healer, stop trying to make it something it's not.
LOL
I'm out ...
I'm out ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
alright, bye, good to know you have no rebuttel
oh hey look you're back, surprise surprise
The fact is the beta testing is not over, and the gorge is a pretty bad class right now. I could make the very same argument that jetpacks must be balanced since we are this far into testing.
The difference is, you are requesting a change that has already been tried, and has been deemed unacceptable. The gorge lost bile bomb, it was given to lerk, and the developers determined that it was not a good fit. If lerk was given bilebomb again, I don't see why they wouldn't come to the exact same conclusion. You may think that bile bomb is better off on the lerk, but the developers think otherwise.
Like I said, that same excuse could be used against it. The Bile bomb was on Gorge, then moved to Lerk, they did it because Gorge suicide runs were a problem. They knew it was a problem, and they switched it back. Hell you can take it off Gorge and give Fade acid rocket for all I care.
Thank you, and have a pleasant day.
i dont think bilebomb is the problem and i dont think removing bilebomb is the solution. But you are right, nothing has been fixed, they tried to solve suicide gorge and yet here we are back at square 1.
The gorge isnt worth more than 10 res in its current form
10 res gorge allows for suicide gorge over and over again
increasing the cost of the gorge will solve the suicide issue (gorges will still suicide just alot less)
adding a new structure/ability to the gorge inventory will increase its usefulness and justify a higher cost
This, right here. The problem isn't "oh marines messed up", the problem is gorges can just keep doing these suicide rushes because the res is nothing and the damage can be huge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is another thread where the issue of marines pushing into a hive and quickly killing it is discussed....which is more of an actual issue as marines spawn FOR FREE WITH ALL UPGRADES so these suicide rushes dont even cost them 10 RES..heck they are FREE.
In that thread we are not saying ban the tactic....but actually seeing if there is a way to address some of the cause (hydras being useless and lack of MC chamber properties)
You obviously didn't play much NS1...either that or gorge rushes where just an aussie thing (which I doubt) but gorge rushes where often used.
Yes. "Gorge Rush" was totally <i>not</i> a thing in NS1. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9rd0Q0csHQ" target="_blank">Totally</a>.