<!--quoteo(post=1974696:date=Sep 9 2012, 11:37 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Sep 9 2012, 11:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974696"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's no doubt about it. Either they need to fix the underlying problem of the alien economy which leads to the "lifeform explosion" or fades need to be significantly nerfed.
Nerfing fades would have fairly drastic consequences on game balance though, so other changes would also have to be made.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd very much like to see the alien economy changed. The lifeform explosion destroys a lot of the unique flow and focus that NS1 had due to the RTS elements. For example in the night cup it was hard to follow the gameplay because the big guns and lifeforms are everywhere rather than teams being forced to commit their limites strengths to certain tasks. It all looks like a big deathmatch with some power shifts and buildings mixed in.
It's probably too late for such dramatic changes though, so I guess it comes down to nerfing fades and then buffing onos to allow aliens to scale to game finishers and endgame.
@Kopikat: There are some false assumptions here. The flamethrower always only reduced the energy regeneration. That was balanced pretty well, because you had a chance of fleeing as alien if you react quickly. The flamethrower got useless with the introduction of the adrenaline upgrade. The higher energy regen cancels out the debuff of the flamer. Draining actively energy of the aliens would make the flamer op. We shouldn't switch from one extreme to the other. Also the damage of the flamer isn't that useless. It is a special type. The damage adds up the longer you hit your target. Making it a very good weapon against the onos. (Together with the energy debuff it was good against every higher life form.) PLUS it is a support weapon. You can neutralize lerk spores and you can kill cysts by aiming on the infestation in no time. (Try playing infestation-vacuum with a flame thrower and a jet pack. This pisses off every alien com. Flying through the whole map killing all the cysts just by aiming at the ground.)
All we need to balance the fade, is: - A flamer that reduces the energy regen to a fixed level. (So it doesn't matter if you have adrenaline or not.) - Higher energy costs for blink and swipe to bring the fade back to surgical assassin strikes instead of a freakin rambo.
I haven't seen this mentioned that much, so I thought I'd do a post... You actually don't currently need adrenaline for fade. Since the initial cost of starting blink is low, and you keep the momentum when you end blink, you can actually make energy last very well without adrenaline. I've lately been playing mostly cele-cara fade, as this has the added bonus of them being the primary skulk upgrades. Sure, adren-blinks make for easier control, but with practice, you will do well without adrenaline. The only trick to it is to jump up just a moment before you tap the blink key. Be sure to aim a bit up so that you avoid touching ground.
Repeating what I said before, fades should be very strong. They cost the same as a standard exo so if they are not as effective as a standard exo (from a game effectiveness, not just a killing effectiveness) then there is an imbalance.
The problem with fades as has been mentioned by myself and a few others is that they appear at the same time for 90% of the alien team. Res for kill (or res for score, my personal preference as it removes the need to be kill-farming) mixed with a fraction the pres tick would make the aliens different to marines and help solve the problem. No res on death also makes no sense as it actually incentivises not participating in the game.
Yes the flamethrower probably needs to be more effective against the fade, but not by much. It needs to make the fade think about how long he wants to stay in there but you dont want a 50 pres lifeform to be instacountered by a spammable easy-to-hit weapon. The buff to the energy regen burn is probably the easiest way of doing this. Stay for an extra second for an extra hit and risk not having enough energy to escape?
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
<!--quoteo(post=1972542:date=Sep 6 2012, 02:39 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Sep 6 2012, 02:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1972542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is ALWAYS a risk of dying in combat. That statement is ignorant and incorrect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh no, the exo isn't op because theres always the risk of dying in combat! This riposte is ignorant and incorrect.
<!--quoteo(post=1974906:date=Sep 10 2012, 10:01 AM:name=Tiomat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tiomat @ Sep 10 2012, 10:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974906"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Repeating what I said before, fades should be very strong. They cost the same as a standard exo so if they are not as effective as a standard exo (from a game effectiveness, not just a killing effectiveness) then there is an imbalance.
The problem with fades as has been mentioned by myself and a few others is that they appear at the same time for 90% of the alien team. Res for kill (or res for score, my personal preference as it removes the need to be kill-farming) mixed with a fraction the pres tick would make the aliens different to marines and help solve the problem. No res on death also makes no sense as it actually incentivises not participating in the game.
Yes the flamethrower probably needs to be more effective against the fade, but not by much. It needs to make the fade think about how long he wants to stay in there but you dont want a 50 pres lifeform to be instacountered by a spammable easy-to-hit weapon. The buff to the energy regen burn is probably the easiest way of doing this. Stay for an extra second for an extra hit and risk not having enough energy to escape?
p.s. tres eggs are broken.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree Fades should be strong but at present there's no downside to going Fade at all. You have every advantage in the game stacked in your favor with the only downside being resource cost. You don't give anything up to go Fade, you don't sacrifice speed, damage, survival. All of the alleged counters for Fade mean absolutely squat when it can disengage at will and strike a Marine base seconds later. Fade mobility needs to be brought way way way down and the only way to do that is with bringing blink down to a more reasonable level.
Well if fade is deemed too universal, I'd say so is the shotgun. It counters every lifeform and building and its still decent longe range. It can be repickupped so its cost is usually below 20 pres.
That said I don't think its wrong to have them universal as they are right now.
Remove shadowstep and then the fade will be fixed... Either the fade needs some changes to prevent spam of its abilities, adrenaline needs changes to prevent spam, or shadowstep should probably just be axed in favor of 1 hive blink.
Mass lifeforms is inherent to the resource system, and i do not think at this stage that anything would be changed there.
There doesnt need to be a direct downside to going fade, you are spending 50 resources to do that... Diversity should be (and is) ecouraged via roles that each lifeform fit
Again: - fix energy-regen-rate while burning (no matter if adrenaline is upgraded or not) and - higher swipe- and blink-cost
You should be able to shortly blink 7 or 8 times before your energy is depleted. So you have to decide. Moving through the map fast but risking to engage while low on energy? Or moving slow through the map to have 3-4 blinks plus 3-4 swipes before energy is empty.
<!--quoteo(post=1974974:date=Sep 10 2012, 02:00 PM:name=Raneman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raneman @ Sep 10 2012, 02:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974974"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At this point I think we should make the flamer a hard counter against fades somehow- then it'd atleast have a use. Any ideas?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not a hard counter, but used in the right way by a Marine that gets proper support from teammates and the comm, the flamer should certainly limit the Fade's effectiveness.
<!--quoteo(post=1974892:date=Sep 10 2012, 01:42 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Sep 10 2012, 01:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974892"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Kopikat: There are some false assumptions here. The flamethrower always only reduced the energy regeneration.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Flamethrower promo page thing lied then (The one that was put up when the Flamethrower was first added to the game). It said it drained energy.
Edit: I don't see why you'd think that draining energy would be OP though. When playing on the Alien side, I literally never even come close to running out of energy on any lifeform with the exception of Parasite/Bile Bomb spam even without Adren. And as mentioned, the MAC has an AOE energy drain for 3 tres.
Im afraid to fade in its current state is not only wiping out entire teams but completely excluding other classes from the game. The past few builds i have rarely seen ANY use of leark and seldom do i ever see an Onos on the field and even if i do i hear people over mic saying "WHY DO U GO ONOS THEY ARE BULLET CUSSIONS FADES WAY BETTER...*rage...etc* its pretty much a 3 alien game atm.
Now i fully support skill and belive it is a vital part of the game but it should not be to the point of skill gives you infinate power. I was on a game of summit a 12 vs 12 and as marrines we were loosing and ended up squashed to one advanced base in crossroads. We had 2 exos left (one double one single) a few jetpackers and many marrines just desperately fighting a last battle. Now it was a hell of a lot of fun but the aliens had 3 fades who were going in there and taking out marrines like flies. Now were were mostly non noobs and many of us had mics communiateing and coordinateing defenses hence why we managed to hold for a damn good 20min but with the amount of fire the fades were taking and their speed they were not going down. Its not just a matter of how high the fades health is but just the shearness of being able to hit them at all. Their speed esspecially with the SLIGHTEST latency issues with that amount of marrines as u can imagne just added to the pain. Other life forms were fairly balanced to deal with. But the score board for fades were reaching 40 - 2 or 3 .
In many other games the thing that is sacrificed with speed is health and vice versa. But the fade has high health and insane speed not. All of the other life forms have a specific niche. Skulk general chomping and ambush and pack hunting, Gorge engineer support defense, Lerk air support and diversion and scouting, Onos anti buildng and crowd control. Now im sure thers other roles i have missed but the point im making is that each of them has seveare limitations. Where as the fade apart from anti building and gorge engineering its just the ultimate anti marrine role and in 95% of cases is all that is needed.
As someone above said an entire team of fades has no dissadvantage but an entire team of exos or jet packers are still very vunrable.
Now I know if you are reading this Hugh you said in your cast "some viewers are saying fade is OP but absaloutly not the marrines let them get to that res to get fade" but my counter argument is fade causes SUCH a MASSIVE power shift in game that size and type of change marrines servearly lack.
As total biscuit says with any game the best and most balanced "upgrade" is a "sidegrade" there need to be some sort of balance because atm the fade is basically a direct upgrade of the Skulk (almost).
<!--quoteo(post=1975034:date=Sep 10 2012, 05:48 PM:name=Angry Hillbilly 2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angry Hillbilly 2 @ Sep 10 2012, 05:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975034"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As someone above said an entire team of fades has no dissadvantage but an entire team of exos or jet packers are still very vunrable.
Now I know if you are reading this Hugh you said in your cast "some viewers are saying fade is OP but absaloutly not the marrines let them get to that res to get fade" but my counter argument is fade causes SUCH a MASSIVE power shift in game that size and type of change marrines servearly lack.
As total biscuit says with any game the best and most balanced "upgrade" is a "sidegrade" there need to be some sort of balance because atm the fade is basically a direct upgrade of the Skulk (almost).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're joking about the jetpacks right? For a mere 10 pres you have a direct upgrade for normal marines without any cons. Lets not even mention the weapons beyond lmg in combination with jetpacks.
I think the lack of solid gorge and lerk roles plays a pretty sizeable deal in the fade issues also. The only way I can see the present 'goodies for everyone' kind of res model functioning is that you actually have to spend a lot of res to survive to the higher tech.
In NS2's case that would mean that a team of 6 should almost be forced to have a gorge and a couple of lerks to hang in there until they can have one or two fades and maybe an onos at some point. Another option might be to give skulks more res sinks that allow highly upgraded skulks to keep the team in the game more than they do now.
The res sink upgrades can also help with the tech explosion in some ways. For example, the 50 res only buys you an unupgraded fade, which then can be upgraded 10 pres later into somewhat more powerful unit. Obviously the fade count stays the same, but at least the power shift happens more gradually rather than turning upside down as soon as the fades are out.
I'm not sure how all this is going to co-operate with the present systems in place though.
<!--quoteo(post=1975034:date=Sep 10 2012, 08:48 AM:name=Angry Hillbilly 2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angry Hillbilly 2 @ Sep 10 2012, 08:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975034"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Im afraid to fade in its current state is not only wiping out entire teams but completely excluding other classes from the game. The past few builds i have rarely seen ANY use of leark and seldom do i ever see an Onos on the field and even if i do i hear people over mic saying "WHY DO U GO ONOS THEY ARE BULLET CUSSIONS FADES WAY BETTER...*rage...etc* its pretty much a 3 alien game atm.
Now i fully support skill and belive it is a vital part of the game but it should not be to the point of skill gives you infinate power. I was on a game of summit a 12 vs 12 and as marrines we were loosing and ended up squashed to one advanced base in crossroads. We had 2 exos left (one double one single) a few jetpackers and many marrines just desperately fighting a last battle. Now it was a hell of a lot of fun but the aliens had 3 fades who were going in there and taking out marrines like flies. Now were were mostly non noobs and many of us had mics communiateing and coordinateing defenses hence why we managed to hold for a damn good 20min but with the amount of fire the fades were taking and their speed they were not going down. Its not just a matter of how high the fades health is but just the shearness of being able to hit them at all. Their speed esspecially with the SLIGHTEST latency issues with that amount of marrines as u can imagne just added to the pain. Other life forms were fairly balanced to deal with. But the score board for <!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->fades were reaching 40 - 2 or 3 <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->.
In many other games the thing that is sacrificed with speed is health and vice versa. But the fade has high health and insane speed not. All of the other life forms have a specific niche. Skulk general chomping and ambush and pack hunting, Gorge engineer support defense, Lerk air support and diversion and scouting, Onos anti buildng and crowd control. Now im sure thers other roles i have missed but the point im making is that each of them has seveare limitations. Where as the fade apart from anti building and gorge engineering its just the ultimate anti marrine role and in 95% of cases is all that is needed.
As someone above said an entire team of fades has no dissadvantage but an entire team of exos or jet packers are still very vunrable.
Now I know if you are reading this Hugh you said in your cast "some viewers are saying fade is OP but absaloutly not the marrines let them get to that res to get fade" but my counter argument is fade causes SUCH a MASSIVE power shift in game that size and type of change marrines servearly lack.
As total biscuit says with any game the best and most balanced "upgrade" is a "sidegrade" there need to be some sort of balance because atm the fade is basically a direct upgrade of the Skulk (almost).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so they died two or three times as skulk ? thats a learn to play issue
fades are not op marines just need to spray shotgun fire and exos need afterburner or bring back heavy armor
<!--quoteo(post=1974957:date=Sep 10 2012, 12:05 PM:name=Keldorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keldorn @ Sep 10 2012, 12:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974957"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well if fade is deemed too universal, I'd say so is the shotgun. It counters every lifeform and building and its still decent longe range. It can be repickupped so its cost is usually below 20 pres.
That said I don't think its wrong to have them universal as they are right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right a slow firing weapon that is limited to close range combat is completely comparable to a lifeform that can kill, harass, scout, and disengage better than the actual classes who specialize in those areas. That's a massive balance issue.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->// Role: Surgical striker, harassment // // The Fade should be a fragile, deadly-sharp knife. Wielded properly, it's force is undeniable. But // used clumsily or without care will only hurt the user. Make sure Fade isn't better than the Skulk // in every way (notably, vs. Structures). To harass, he must be able to stay out in the field // without continually healing at base, and needs to be able to use blink often.<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
needs more fragile if handled clumsily
re: angry hillbilly's comment. perhaps a speed / health tradeoff could be done so there would be more of a penalty when blinking into and over-committing in an area with a large marine presence.
?more fragile during blink? so good shooters could penalize an overcommitted fade on retreat.
<!--quoteo(post=1975095:date=Sep 10 2012, 07:31 PM:name=Chem)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chem @ Sep 10 2012, 07:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975095"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're right a slow firing weapon that is limited to close range combat is completely comparable to a lifeform that can kill, harass, scout, and disengage better than the actual classes who specialize in those areas. That's a massive balance issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Both are universal and each race have their racial characteristics. You don't one on one fades, you move in group and you use phasegates / jetpacks to get to stuff. If you're saying that the fade is op because its too universal and then claim that the shotgun isn't, then you're just being biased.
<!--quoteo(post=1975127:date=Sep 10 2012, 06:59 PM:name=Keldorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keldorn @ Sep 10 2012, 06:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975127"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Both are universal and each race have their racial characteristics. You don't one on one fades, you move in group and you use phasegates / jetpacks to get to stuff. If you're saying that the fade is op because its too universal and then claim that the shotgun isn't, then you're just being biased.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> From Dictionary.com u·ni·ver·sal   [yoo-nuh-vur-suhl] adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of all or the whole: universal experience. <b>2. applicable everywhere or in all cases; general: a universal cure.</b> 3. affecting, concerning, or involving all: universal military service. 4. used or understood by all: a universal language. 5. present everywhere: the universal calm of southern seas.
So a weapon that is purely close range, depends on accurate shot placement due to a low rate of fire, and is ineffective against structures would not qualify as universal. It has its own specific role to fill, close range heavy burst damage. A Universal weapon would be more along the lines of the Rifle or Mini-Guns on the EXO Suit. Not a shotgun.
The fade on the other hand has no disadvantages. Every single other item in the game except the jetpack and the fade have some kind of downside to evolving/equipping it. That's poor balance.
<!--quoteo(post=1975159:date=Sep 10 2012, 02:46 PM:name=Chem)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chem @ Sep 10 2012, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975159"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From Dictionary.com u·ni·ver·sal   [yoo-nuh-vur-suhl] adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of all or the whole: universal experience. <b>2. applicable everywhere or in all cases; general: a universal cure.</b> 3. affecting, concerning, or involving all: universal military service. 4. used or understood by all: a universal language. 5. present everywhere: the universal calm of southern seas.
So a weapon that is purely close range, depends on accurate shot placement due to a low rate of fire, and is ineffective against structures would not qualify as universal. It has its own specific role to fill, close range heavy burst damage. A Universal weapon would be more along the lines of the Rifle or Mini-Guns on the EXO Suit. Not a shotgun.
The fade on the other hand has no disadvantages. Every single other item in the game except the jetpack and the fade have some kind of downside to evolving/equipping it. That's poor balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know what game you're playing, but in NS2 the shotgun is universal because it's the answer to every lifeform.
Want to kill a skulk? Shotgun. Lerk? Shotgun. Fade? Shotgun. Onos? It'd be shotgun too if Hide Armor wasn't messing everything up. All Kharaa lifeforms operate in close range, so a weapon that specializes in close range specializes in killing aliens.
The shotgun being used for everything is because, there is <i><b>nothing else</b></i> for a Marine to use besides the Rifle or an Exo if he wants to be something other than support. The massive trade off with the shotgun is that your effective range is the aliens, and if you miss you die. There is no trade off as a Fade. There's no risk as a Fade unless you've been eating a diet of heavy metals for the past 20 years. It's even worse than the NS 3.0 Fade because at least there was a chance for you to block the Fade and get him stuck on a wall or something. Here it's just zoom around invisible if you get in trouble and be half way across the map before a marine can finish reloading his rifle.
If you can't see how having Fades being the most lethal, quickest, most survivable unit in the game might be a balance issue than I don't know what to tell you.
<!--quoteo(post=1975201:date=Sep 10 2012, 01:43 PM:name=Chem)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chem @ Sep 10 2012, 01:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975201"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The shotgun being used for everything is because, there is <i><b>nothing else</b></i> for a Marine to use besides the Rifle or an Exo if he wants to be something other than support. The massive trade off with the shotgun is that your effective range is the aliens, and if you miss you die. There is no trade off as a Fade. There's no risk as a Fade unless you've been eating a diet of heavy metals for the past 20 years. It's even worse than the NS 3.0 Fade because at least there was a chance for you to block the Fade and get him stuck on a wall or something. Here it's just zoom around invisible if you get in trouble and be half way across the map before a marine can finish reloading his rifle.
If you can't see how having Fades being the most lethal, quickest, most survivable unit in the game might be a balance issue than I don't know what to tell you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is actually rather true. Most of the time I have an obscene amount of res as a Marine, simply because there isn't much to spend it on. Mines are useless past early game, Flamethrower is useless always, Jetpacks are only 10, I don't buy Exos because they're a waste, Welders are only 5 and you can usually loot one from a corpse, Grenade Launcher has a few drawbacks that makes it specialized enough that you shouldn't just take it regardless of the situation...
Which is part of the reason why I'd like Heavy Armor and the HMG back...even though Exos are supposed to be a replacement for both, they really don't fit that role at all.
Basically, aside from the Shotgun, Jetpack, and occasionally the Grenade Launcher, the Marines have nothing worthwhile to spend their res on.
<!--quoteo(post=1975105:date=Sep 10 2012, 06:51 PM:name=jbaker8935)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jbaker8935 @ Sep 10 2012, 06:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975105"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->re: angry hillbilly's comment. perhaps a speed / health tradeoff could be done so there would be more of a penalty when blinking into and over-committing in an area with a large marine presence.
?more fragile during blink? so good shooters could penalize an overcommitted fade on retreat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
mmm that does sound like an idea. My favorate ideas that ive come across so far are:
Fix adrenaline (although thats in the pipeline already as far as i know its well known to be broken so i trust the devs with that)
More fragile in blink as u have suggested. This would certainly make the user THINK before using it AND would introduce a new level of skill of when to engage it in combat.
another one i like is the idea of after so much damage in blink the fade comes out of blink and the user has to reclick to reblink giving the marrines perhaps half a secondish to take it out. So say...idunno...after 30-40 damage (its a random number off the top of my head so no rage please :P ) the fade would come out of blink. Another positive side effect of this could be it would encorage a tactical use of turrets (actually giving them a use unlike at the moment) to a degree as almost a fade deterent requring the other alien species to take them out and so thus the fade would have an area it is not good in. Although, yes i do understand the idea of spamming turrets but this would be to the loss of the marrines as they would we wasting resources as the other aliens could take them out :)
thats my fav of the 3 anyway as gives turrets a role. But I think all 3 are viable options.
Comments
Nerfing fades would have fairly drastic consequences on game balance though, so other changes would also have to be made.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd very much like to see the alien economy changed. The lifeform explosion destroys a lot of the unique flow and focus that NS1 had due to the RTS elements. For example in the night cup it was hard to follow the gameplay because the big guns and lifeforms are everywhere rather than teams being forced to commit their limites strengths to certain tasks. It all looks like a big deathmatch with some power shifts and buildings mixed in.
It's probably too late for such dramatic changes though, so I guess it comes down to nerfing fades and then buffing onos to allow aliens to scale to game finishers and endgame.
There are some false assumptions here. The flamethrower always only reduced the energy regeneration. That was balanced pretty well, because you had a chance of fleeing as alien if you react quickly. The flamethrower got useless with the introduction of the adrenaline upgrade. The higher energy regen cancels out the debuff of the flamer.
Draining actively energy of the aliens would make the flamer op. We shouldn't switch from one extreme to the other.
Also the damage of the flamer isn't that useless. It is a special type. The damage adds up the longer you hit your target. Making it a very good weapon against the onos. (Together with the energy debuff it was good against every higher life form.)
PLUS it is a support weapon. You can neutralize lerk spores and you can kill cysts by aiming on the infestation in no time. (Try playing infestation-vacuum with a flame thrower and a jet pack. This pisses off every alien com. Flying through the whole map killing all the cysts just by aiming at the ground.)
All we need to balance the fade, is:
- A flamer that reduces the energy regen to a fixed level. (So it doesn't matter if you have adrenaline or not.)
- Higher energy costs for blink and swipe to bring the fade back to surgical assassin strikes instead of a freakin rambo.
The problem with fades as has been mentioned by myself and a few others is that they appear at the same time for 90% of the alien team. Res for kill (or res for score, my personal preference as it removes the need to be kill-farming) mixed with a fraction the pres tick would make the aliens different to marines and help solve the problem. No res on death also makes no sense as it actually incentivises not participating in the game.
Yes the flamethrower probably needs to be more effective against the fade, but not by much. It needs to make the fade think about how long he wants to stay in there but you dont want a 50 pres lifeform to be instacountered by a spammable easy-to-hit weapon. The buff to the energy regen burn is probably the easiest way of doing this. Stay for an extra second for an extra hit and risk not having enough energy to escape?
p.s. tres eggs are broken.
Oh no, the exo isn't op because theres always the risk of dying in combat!
This riposte is ignorant and incorrect.
The problem with fades as has been mentioned by myself and a few others is that they appear at the same time for 90% of the alien team. Res for kill (or res for score, my personal preference as it removes the need to be kill-farming) mixed with a fraction the pres tick would make the aliens different to marines and help solve the problem. No res on death also makes no sense as it actually incentivises not participating in the game.
Yes the flamethrower probably needs to be more effective against the fade, but not by much. It needs to make the fade think about how long he wants to stay in there but you dont want a 50 pres lifeform to be instacountered by a spammable easy-to-hit weapon. The buff to the energy regen burn is probably the easiest way of doing this. Stay for an extra second for an extra hit and risk not having enough energy to escape?
p.s. tres eggs are broken.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree Fades should be strong but at present there's no downside to going Fade at all. You have every advantage in the game stacked in your favor with the only downside being resource cost. You don't give anything up to go Fade, you don't sacrifice speed, damage, survival. All of the alleged counters for Fade mean absolutely squat when it can disengage at will and strike a Marine base seconds later. Fade mobility needs to be brought way way way down and the only way to do that is with bringing blink down to a more reasonable level.
That said I don't think its wrong to have them universal as they are right now.
Either the fade needs some changes to prevent spam of its abilities, adrenaline needs changes to prevent spam, or shadowstep should probably just be axed in favor of 1 hive blink.
Mass lifeforms is inherent to the resource system, and i do not think at this stage that anything would be changed there.
There doesnt need to be a direct downside to going fade, you are spending 50 resources to do that... Diversity should be (and is) ecouraged via roles that each lifeform fit
- fix energy-regen-rate while burning (no matter if adrenaline is upgraded or not) and
- higher swipe- and blink-cost
You should be able to shortly blink 7 or 8 times before your energy is depleted. So you have to decide. Moving through the map fast but risking to engage while low on energy? Or moving slow through the map to have 3-4 blinks plus 3-4 swipes before energy is empty.
Not a hard counter, but used in the right way by a Marine that gets proper support from teammates and the comm, the flamer should certainly limit the Fade's effectiveness.
I suck as a fade and always stay too long anyways but just thinking off the cuff.
There are some false assumptions here. The flamethrower always only reduced the energy regeneration.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Flamethrower promo page thing lied then (The one that was put up when the Flamethrower was first added to the game). It said it drained energy.
Edit: I don't see why you'd think that draining energy would be OP though. When playing on the Alien side, I literally never even come close to running out of energy on any lifeform with the exception of Parasite/Bile Bomb spam even without Adren. And as mentioned, the MAC has an AOE energy drain for 3 tres.
Now i fully support skill and belive it is a vital part of the game but it should not be to the point of skill gives you infinate power. I was on a game of summit a 12 vs 12 and as marrines we were loosing and ended up squashed to one advanced base in crossroads. We had 2 exos left (one double one single) a few jetpackers and many marrines just desperately fighting a last battle. Now it was a hell of a lot of fun but the aliens had 3 fades who were going in there and taking out marrines like flies. Now were were mostly non noobs and many of us had mics communiateing and coordinateing defenses hence why we managed to hold for a damn good 20min but with the amount of fire the fades were taking and their speed they were not going down. Its not just a matter of how high the fades health is but just the shearness of being able to hit them at all. Their speed esspecially with the SLIGHTEST latency issues with that amount of marrines as u can imagne just added to the pain. Other life forms were fairly balanced to deal with. But the score board for fades were reaching 40 - 2 or 3 .
In many other games the thing that is sacrificed with speed is health and vice versa. But the fade has high health and insane speed not. All of the other life forms have a specific niche. Skulk general chomping and ambush and pack hunting, Gorge engineer support defense, Lerk air support and diversion and scouting, Onos anti buildng and crowd control. Now im sure thers other roles i have missed but the point im making is that each of them has seveare limitations. Where as the fade apart from anti building and gorge engineering its just the ultimate anti marrine role and in 95% of cases is all that is needed.
As someone above said an entire team of fades has no dissadvantage but an entire team of exos or jet packers are still very vunrable.
Now I know if you are reading this Hugh you said in your cast "some viewers are saying fade is OP but absaloutly not the marrines let them get to that res to get fade" but my counter argument is fade causes SUCH a MASSIVE power shift in game that size and type of change marrines servearly lack.
As total biscuit says with any game the best and most balanced "upgrade" is a "sidegrade" there need to be some sort of balance because atm the fade is basically a direct upgrade of the Skulk (almost).
Now I know if you are reading this Hugh you said in your cast "some viewers are saying fade is OP but absaloutly not the marrines let them get to that res to get fade" but my counter argument is fade causes SUCH a MASSIVE power shift in game that size and type of change marrines servearly lack.
As total biscuit says with any game the best and most balanced "upgrade" is a "sidegrade" there need to be some sort of balance because atm the fade is basically a direct upgrade of the Skulk (almost).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're joking about the jetpacks right? For a mere 10 pres you have a direct upgrade for normal marines without any cons. Lets not even mention the weapons beyond lmg in combination with jetpacks.
In NS2's case that would mean that a team of 6 should almost be forced to have a gorge and a couple of lerks to hang in there until they can have one or two fades and maybe an onos at some point. Another option might be to give skulks more res sinks that allow highly upgraded skulks to keep the team in the game more than they do now.
The res sink upgrades can also help with the tech explosion in some ways. For example, the 50 res only buys you an unupgraded fade, which then can be upgraded 10 pres later into somewhat more powerful unit. Obviously the fade count stays the same, but at least the power shift happens more gradually rather than turning upside down as soon as the fades are out.
I'm not sure how all this is going to co-operate with the present systems in place though.
1. Fix Adrenaline
2. Lower the fades swing rate a litte bit
Now i fully support skill and belive it is a vital part of the game but it should not be to the point of skill gives you infinate power. I was on a game of summit a 12 vs 12 and as marrines we were loosing and ended up squashed to one advanced base in crossroads. We had 2 exos left (one double one single) a few jetpackers and many marrines just desperately fighting a last battle. Now it was a hell of a lot of fun but the aliens had 3 fades who were going in there and taking out marrines like flies. Now were were mostly non noobs and many of us had mics communiateing and coordinateing defenses hence why we managed to hold for a damn good 20min but with the amount of fire the fades were taking and their speed they were not going down. Its not just a matter of how high the fades health is but just the shearness of being able to hit them at all. Their speed esspecially with the SLIGHTEST latency issues with that amount of marrines as u can imagne just added to the pain. Other life forms were fairly balanced to deal with. But the score board for <!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->fades were reaching 40 - 2 or 3 <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->.
In many other games the thing that is sacrificed with speed is health and vice versa. But the fade has high health and insane speed not. All of the other life forms have a specific niche. Skulk general chomping and ambush and pack hunting, Gorge engineer support defense, Lerk air support and diversion and scouting, Onos anti buildng and crowd control. Now im sure thers other roles i have missed but the point im making is that each of them has seveare limitations. Where as the fade apart from anti building and gorge engineering its just the ultimate anti marrine role and in 95% of cases is all that is needed.
As someone above said an entire team of fades has no dissadvantage but an entire team of exos or jet packers are still very vunrable.
Now I know if you are reading this Hugh you said in your cast "some viewers are saying fade is OP but absaloutly not the marrines let them get to that res to get fade" but my counter argument is fade causes SUCH a MASSIVE power shift in game that size and type of change marrines servearly lack.
As total biscuit says with any game the best and most balanced "upgrade" is a "sidegrade" there need to be some sort of balance because atm the fade is basically a direct upgrade of the Skulk (almost).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so they died two or three times as skulk ? thats a learn to play issue
fades are not op marines just need to spray shotgun fire and exos need afterburner or bring back heavy armor
+1
That said I don't think its wrong to have them universal as they are right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right a slow firing weapon that is limited to close range combat is completely comparable to a lifeform that can kill, harass, scout, and disengage better than the actual classes who specialize in those areas. That's a massive balance issue.
//
// The Fade should be a fragile, deadly-sharp knife. Wielded properly, it's force is undeniable. But
// used clumsily or without care will only hurt the user. Make sure Fade isn't better than the Skulk
// in every way (notably, vs. Structures). To harass, he must be able to stay out in the field
// without continually healing at base, and needs to be able to use blink often.<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
needs more fragile if handled clumsily
re: angry hillbilly's comment. perhaps a speed / health tradeoff could be done so there would be
more of a penalty when blinking into and over-committing in an area with a large marine presence.
?more fragile during blink? so good shooters could penalize an overcommitted fade on retreat.
Both are universal and each race have their racial characteristics. You don't one on one fades, you move in group and you use phasegates / jetpacks to get to stuff. If you're saying that the fade is op because its too universal and then claim that the shotgun isn't, then you're just being biased.
From Dictionary.com
u·ni·ver·sal   [yoo-nuh-vur-suhl]
adjective
1. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of all or the whole: universal experience.
<b>2. applicable everywhere or in all cases; general: a universal cure.</b>
3. affecting, concerning, or involving all: universal military service.
4. used or understood by all: a universal language.
5. present everywhere: the universal calm of southern seas.
So a weapon that is purely close range, depends on accurate shot placement due to a low rate of fire, and is ineffective against structures would not qualify as universal. It has its own specific role to fill, close range heavy burst damage. A Universal weapon would be more along the lines of the Rifle or Mini-Guns on the EXO Suit. Not a shotgun.
The fade on the other hand has no disadvantages. Every single other item in the game except the jetpack and the fade have some kind of downside to evolving/equipping it. That's poor balance.
u·ni·ver·sal   [yoo-nuh-vur-suhl]
adjective
1. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of all or the whole: universal experience.
<b>2. applicable everywhere or in all cases; general: a universal cure.</b>
3. affecting, concerning, or involving all: universal military service.
4. used or understood by all: a universal language.
5. present everywhere: the universal calm of southern seas.
So a weapon that is purely close range, depends on accurate shot placement due to a low rate of fire, and is ineffective against structures would not qualify as universal. It has its own specific role to fill, close range heavy burst damage. A Universal weapon would be more along the lines of the Rifle or Mini-Guns on the EXO Suit. Not a shotgun.
The fade on the other hand has no disadvantages. Every single other item in the game except the jetpack and the fade have some kind of downside to evolving/equipping it. That's poor balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know what game you're playing, but in NS2 the shotgun is universal because it's the answer to every lifeform.
Want to kill a skulk? Shotgun. Lerk? Shotgun. Fade? Shotgun. Onos? It'd be shotgun too if Hide Armor wasn't messing everything up. All Kharaa lifeforms operate in close range, so a weapon that specializes in close range specializes in killing aliens.
If you can't see how having Fades being the most lethal, quickest, most survivable unit in the game might be a balance issue than I don't know what to tell you.
If you can't see how having Fades being the most lethal, quickest, most survivable unit in the game might be a balance issue than I don't know what to tell you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is actually rather true. Most of the time I have an obscene amount of res as a Marine, simply because there isn't much to spend it on. Mines are useless past early game, Flamethrower is useless always, Jetpacks are only 10, I don't buy Exos because they're a waste, Welders are only 5 and you can usually loot one from a corpse, Grenade Launcher has a few drawbacks that makes it specialized enough that you shouldn't just take it regardless of the situation...
Which is part of the reason why I'd like Heavy Armor and the HMG back...even though Exos are supposed to be a replacement for both, they really don't fit that role at all.
Basically, aside from the Shotgun, Jetpack, and occasionally the Grenade Launcher, the Marines have nothing worthwhile to spend their res on.
more of a penalty when blinking into and over-committing in an area with a large marine presence.
?more fragile during blink? so good shooters could penalize an overcommitted fade on retreat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
mmm that does sound like an idea. My favorate ideas that ive come across so far are:
Fix adrenaline (although thats in the pipeline already as far as i know its well known to be broken so i trust the devs with that)
More fragile in blink as u have suggested. This would certainly make the user THINK before using it AND would introduce a new level of skill of when to engage it in combat.
another one i like is the idea of after so much damage in blink the fade comes out of blink and the user has to reclick to reblink giving the marrines perhaps half a secondish to take it out. So say...idunno...after 30-40 damage (its a random number off the top of my head so no rage please :P ) the fade would come out of blink. Another positive side effect of this could be it would encorage a tactical use of turrets (actually giving them a use unlike at the moment) to a degree as almost a fade deterent requring the other alien species to take them out and so thus the fade would have an area it is not good in. Although, yes i do understand the idea of spamming turrets but this would be to the loss of the marrines as they would we wasting resources as the other aliens could take them out :)
thats my fav of the 3 anyway as gives turrets a role. But I think all 3 are viable options.