<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What exactly does the Lerk currently do?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->It hovars without flapping.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
But seriously. The Lerk is more of a harrasing lifeform that picks away at the marines wherever there's weakness. Use the one big advantage you have, speed. Spikes and bite complement each other quite well when you get used to them. You're supposed to use hit and run tactics like:
-Going in for a fast bite then finishing the lone marine with spikes as he chases you. -Roosting in rooms with high ceilings and chipping at passing marines or structures until you get noticed then swoop in for a bite. Or leave, depending on how many marines are there. -Clearing mines to help other life forms.
Attacking head on in their spawn of secured tech points will usually get you killed.
<!--quoteo(post=1972465:date=Sep 5 2012, 10:16 PM:name=piratedave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (piratedave @ Sep 5 2012, 10:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1972465"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->solution : make the lerk into a Vampire !!!
Lerk Bite does DOT and Heals the lerk over time
This would make the lerk have far more staying power and would bolster his Harrass role<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 really like this idea...Also i think that spores should be a ranged attack again since it's a 2nd hive upgrade. Usually by the time it's researched you're dealing with shotguns/exos and its not really viable.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited September 2012
lol i literally started a long discussion on this exact matter today in the internal chat room..
The lerk lost it's viability in 217 for two reasons:
1) a bug that made spikes not as effective as they should have been thanks to weapon slot 2) spores were supposed to be buffed in dmg, but it was forgotten
And while i think this will help it will not solve the issue that plagues this current lerk: that he is not a viable early game life form.. his entire purpose is negated. Why? Because he is doubly punished by both 1)not having spores to obscure and properly engage the enemy as well as retreat (leap and blink and everything else always comes first) which makes zero sense for the weak, harrasing and supporting class thats used in early game (you know, when you first get 30 pres?) 2) having flapping costing energy destroys the method in which lerks engage their enemy, by mainting their aim on a singular player while simultaneously dodging their shots by flapping around. These two mechanics literally fight against one another.. and "bombing runs" or "swooping" while spiking is not accurate nor damaging enough to kill a marine in time to be effective...not to mention theres generally not enough height to make it effective, you are just closing the gap to that player's shotgun!
Its as if a nerf was simply given to him. Which i know was not the intention...
So when the bug gets fixed it *might* help.. but its still a design issue so, The way i see it: I know he needs one ranged one short, but that can be his upgrade! it was working just fine in 216! bottom line currently for me personally: My favorite class needs to start with spores to be worth 30 pres... otherwise im just saving for a fade instead. :-/
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
The Lerk isn't perfect, agreed. It's a bit difficult to playtest the Lerk when there's only myself and one other person who play it as their only alien class and understand how to play it (and we were both at PAX last week). What went out today was a Lerk that was only half-finished in terms of the tweaks I gave to Charlie.
As far as the flight costing energy: It's about as low as it can go without removing it (I am looking into how much we could increase the energy pool without giving it too much). Spikes: They need work, and Spores only had half the changes applied to them before it was released - the intention was not to balance it around adrenaline at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1972492:date=Sep 5 2012, 08:04 PM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Sep 5 2012, 08:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1972492"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Lerk isn't perfect, agreed. It's a bit difficult to playtest the Lerk when there's only myself and one other person who play it as their only alien class and understand how to play it (and we were both at PAX last week). What went out today was a Lerk that was only half-finished in terms of the tweaks I gave to Charlie.
As far as the flight costing energy: It's about as low as it can go without removing it (I am looking into how much we could increase the energy pool without giving it too much). Spikes: They need work, and Spores only had half the changes applied to them before it was released - the intention was not to balance it around adrenaline at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good to know.
Also, don't remove Flight Energy cost please. It's the unique mechanic of learning to fly and glide properly for the Lerk class, and so rewarding to get right.
<!--quoteo(post=1972496:date=Sep 5 2012, 10:11 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 5 2012, 10:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1972496"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then what, remove spikes? Because they dont work well together. (unless you make them lazer beam accurate with higher damage)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Or you allow spikes to become more accurate as you go longer without flapping, allowing roosted or gliding lerks to gain combat abilities to offset their vulnerabilities without making twitch-Lerks overpowered. It even makes sense; the Lerk shoots spikes out of his wings, after all.
<!--quoteo(post=1972499:date=Sep 5 2012, 10:15 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 5 2012, 10:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1972499"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And how do you communicate that? That just sounds like another hidden mechanic..
and no the lerk shoots spikes out of the small shooters on the sides of his head, examine him closely to see.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Obvious mechanic is to have the crosshair/oval-thing grow every time you flap. Simple, intuitive, frequently used across FPS games. Also, his head's got to be jerking around a bunch as well with all that flapping! Lerks are the only ranged players in the game that can experience the kind of acceleration they do; even marines with jetpacks smooth into their accelerations to reduce jerk.
Also, don't remove Flight Energy cost please. It's the unique mechanic of learning to fly and glide properly for the Lerk class, and so rewarding to get right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dno. I always liked it as more of a meta mechanic where flapping = great ammount of ruckus, gliding = silent. If it went back to that, silence might actually be viable instead of adren lerk all day every day.
I play lerk a lot and I think the fundamentals are sound.
Bite: Great to have this back! But, shouldn't the bite be more powerful than a skulks? This is a 30 res lifeform! And he just got in someone's face to bite them! If the issue is taking down res nodes with bite, then adjust bite's damage against structures but not marines. Spikes: You're a support class, this means you should be using these while skulks are attacking. Yes, you have to get pretty close to do respectable damage, but if the marines are busy with the skulks you can usually just sit out of their field of view and spike away. That said they still seem on the weak side. Spores: Fine as is. Ya, it sucks commanders have better options for upgrades and you rarely get to use them. But since they sink now they're quite effective. Umbra: Fine as is.
It's clear the devs wanted to design a alien class that has to get in close and risk dieing to be useful, but for 30 res and what it does it just isn't worth the risk when it can die in one shotgun blast. Well, at least early game. I still play the class because it is fun, but if I were serious about winning it wouldn't be worth it. A gorge at 10 res is a far more powerful support class, and cost a lot less.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
I agree antacid.
@techercizer: Yea thatd work but its now a lazer beam like i said. a very binary mechanic and very frustrating to be on the other end of this.
216 was the best lerk yet. You flew in fast and crop dusted the room so you could swoop down safely and bite a few marines and then gtfo. it was fun AND effective. and your tier 2 upgrade felt like an upgrade that you could alternate between and that didnt remove the need for bite and most importantly you were NOT crippled if you didnt have it early game... unlike spores.
<!--quoteo(post=1972517:date=Sep 5 2012, 10:32 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 5 2012, 10:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1972517"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@techercizer: Yea thatd work but its now a lazer beam like i said. a very binary mechanic and very frustrating to be on the other end of this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh no, a lower-spread attack from a lifeform that is either sitting motionless or gliding in a straight line right at you. You know what would fix this? Shooting it. You've still got a more accurate, more damaging gun, and you can dodge around all you want.
The whole point of this is that it is <b>not</b> a binary mechanic. It's a smooth gradient between the current inaccuracy (or even greater inaccuracy, as balance dictates) and improved accuracy as time since last flap increases. It can lead to all sorts of combinations between roosting, bombing runs, hovering, and evasive flaps, all dynamically affecting your accuracy. That's more of a skill cap than flying unpredictably will ever be.
One such strategy would be to flap wildly while the Marine wastes his ammo, then hovering or even roosting when he reloads. This leads to a dance between the Marine and Lerk as the Marine tries to measure out his shots when he can hit the Lerk or when it gets complacent, and the Lerk tries to bait the marine into wasting his shots so he can make himself vulnerable to go for the kill.
While we are talking about possible new abilities, I would like the ability to pick up a skulk or gorge and use them as a meat shield while I fly towards the marines. Then throw their carcass at the marine (causing alien blood to drench over their screen).
<!--quoteo(post=1972521:date=Sep 5 2012, 10:44 PM:name=Sling_Blade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sling_Blade @ Sep 5 2012, 10:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1972521"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While we are talking about possible new abilities, I would like the ability to pick up a skulk or gorge and use them as a meat shield while I fly towards the marines. Then throw their carcass at the marine (causing alien blood to drench over their screen).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You should install the Lerk Lift mod. It's sort of like that, except the Gorge is alive, spraying bacteria constantly, and <i>pissed</i>.
<!--quoteo(post=1972492:date=Sep 6 2012, 02:04 PM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Sep 6 2012, 02:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1972492"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Lerk isn't perfect, agreed. It's a bit difficult to playtest the Lerk when there's only myself and one other person who play it as their only alien class and understand how to play it (and we were both at PAX last week). What went out today was a Lerk that was only half-finished in terms of the tweaks I gave to Charlie.
As far as the flight costing energy: It's about as low as it can go without removing it (I am looking into how much we could increase the energy pool without giving it too much). Spikes: They need work, and Spores only had half the changes applied to them before it was released - the intention was not to balance it around adrenaline at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How do you guys look at balance with the lerk, are you comparing it to marines with upgrades (ie Shotguns, W2, A2 etc)?
I cant help but feel the lerks fine right off the bat but once marines start to get any sort of damage of defensive upgrade the lerk quickly nose dives from a survivability standpoint. In fact I think all aliens hit this issue, marines simply get harder to kill and can do more damage every minute the game goes on yet aliens dont. Marines all get armour and damage upgrades for free by default (even exo's) aliens have to chose whether they want armour or regen, adren or celerity, Camo or Silence. I am sure someone has said previously that lerk etc balanced against a vanilla marine from the 1 min mark of a game not a vanilla marine at the 5 or 10 minute mark (who has all upgrades). Whilst you can to some extent get away with that on a skulk...maybe even a gorge..when you hit Lerk, Fade or Onos then its really shakey. Ofcourse a lerk will devestate a vanilla marine from the 1st min mark...but you cant go lerk at the 1 min mark the lerks intended to evolve around the 3-4 min mark when marines have started getting either armour or weapons upgrades (or should have if they are not rushing exo's) so the marines around when the lerk comes out are tougher than marines at the 1st min mark. The initial upgrades dont do enough but by about 5-7 min mark lerks are struggling with shotties, weapons and armour upgrades. For a 30 Res investment the lerk doesn't stand up...I am the worlds worst fade (you see those fades that are really easy to kill and seem to blink into walls all the time....) but even I will now skip lerk and go to fade or onos.
I think if you aimed at trying to balance lerks to w2 a1 marines you will find the lerks a lot more useful in the middle of the game and once exo's are out. I mean it would be nice to fly past an exo and gas the marines trying to heal him...would be lucky to even get close enough to spore currently. With the amount of damage exo's do and the weak state of lerks trailing gas is suicide preojectile spores need to come back to allow aliens a way to try and break up the marines circling the exo's with welders out. Gas projectiles would do this nicely and coupled with ranged umbra would make the lerk useful and require less armour and HP buffs.
<!--quoteo(post=1971932:date=Sep 5 2012, 10:36 AM:name=spawneh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spawneh @ Sep 5 2012, 10:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971932"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think many people really understand the effect that lerks can have on a battle. Mainly due to the fact that alot of what they do never appears as in game score. So many times when I am playing lerk I harass a squad of marines, then a fade comes in and basically 1-2 swipes them all (as they have low health or armour from spores / spikes). The lerk is good at bleeding marine hp / armour down and then other life forms can finish them off.
If there was points for assists, you would probably see lerks higher up the scoreboard and it would be clearer the impact they can have.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1 Completely Agreed
While imba does make very valid arugments, lerks are purely support. Their bite or spikes is equivalent to TF2's medic weapons, the hack saw and syringe-gun. Neither are meant to do devastating damage.
I like that the spores are now a 2nd hive research. But they need a damage buff to justify its tech requirement and cost.
Lastly, I'm on the fence about the 30 res cost. I'm thinking 25 would be nice.
Anyway, I believe that if lerk spores were buffed, we could see it being used as a <b>viable first upgrade with 2nd hive</b>. On nearly the same par as blink or leap or bile bomb. Because right now, <b>leap</b> is the standard first. (for obvious reasons: its an ability that free skulks can use) next is <b>blink</b>: especially good if you have pro-fades. you can always upgrade leap after blink. or <b>bilebomb</b>: for those gorge rushes with onos/shadowstep fades. Maybe a forward shift with commander-dropped gorge eggs. This depends on marine/alien spawn and res income, but is a perfectly viable specialty strategy. But I've pulled this strategy off before. <u>BUT NOBODY GETS GAS.</u> Imagine the possible strategies if gas damage was buffed so that it does fairly formidable damage and provides decent area denial. A quick third hive with patrolling lerks providing area denial? A hard push on marine base, forcing shotguns or double armories or flamethrowers.
Drop the bite. There is too much risk and not enough reward with the bite. If you get off a bite or two and fly away because of how fragile you are, your target won't die and they can then be healed with no damage to their armor. You've also most likely put yourself in a good position to die trying to swoop in and if you end up dead, you have instantly put your team at a disadvantage. When the need for higher lifeforms comes later on in the game, you wont have the pres to do it.
Bring back shotgun spikes! That's when the lerk was the most fun. Right now, U only go lerk to mess around and you have to play like you're made of glass. It just feels like some lifeform I used to know :(.
Spores were really good when you had to prevent an all out charge from marines. You either pre-gassed where they were going to be running or fly in from behind them as they're running. It was effective. Now you shoot tiny pebbles at them and give them a good giggle before they blast your face in:(.
While imba does make very valid arugments, lerks are purely support. Their bite or spikes is equivalent to TF2's medic weapons, the hack saw and syringe-gun. Neither are meant to do devastating damage.
<SNIP><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your comparing the lerk to the medic in TF2?
Issue with lerk is its paper thin yet its expected to be melee.
Drop the lerk to 15 Res
or
make spores a projectile again. Reason this needs to happen is to break up groups of marines around exo's.....lerks take adrenaline as it allows for more gas, bites etc not celerity so a lerk coming into the range of an exo is a dead lerk (more so than skulks) as he is moving normal speeds. Lerks get 1 shotted by SG's....a good JP is tough for even a good lerk to kill.....exo's you might as well just type kill in console.
Why must aliens have 2 support classes (lerk and gorge) yet marines get none? This means that your down 4v6 (asuming 1 gorge 1 lerk) in a 6 v 6 battle. Marines weapons increase in damage across the game but aliens dont. Marines get 3 armour upgrades (4 if you include exo) aliens get 1...if they chose to take it...with a slowdown penalty (no penalties for marines)
<!--quoteo(post=1972552:date=Sep 6 2012, 12:00 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Sep 6 2012, 12:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1972552"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your comparing the lerk to the medic in TF2?
Issue with lerk is its paper thin yet its expected to be melee.
Drop the lerk to 15 Res
or
make spores a projectile again. Reason this needs to happen is to break up groups of marines around exo's.....lerks take adrenaline as it allows for more gas, bites etc not celerity so a lerk coming into the range of an exo is a dead lerk (more so than skulks) as he is moving normal speeds. Lerks get 1 shotted by SG's....a good JP is tough for even a good lerk to kill.....exo's you might as well just type kill in console.
Why must aliens have 2 support classes (lerk and gorge) yet marines get none? This means that your down 4v6 (asuming 1 gorge 1 lerk) in a 6 v 6 battle. Marines weapons increase in damage across the game but aliens dont. Marines get 3 armour upgrades (4 if you include exo) aliens get 1...if they chose to take it...with a slowdown penalty (no penalties for marines)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You snipped my quote at the least important part to scoff at the bad analogy that doesn't completely translate literally. My point was that lerk spikes and bite are not offensive, they are more support. A lerk's poison bite has the potential to do 95 damage directly to health. Spikes provide a nice softening for skulks. Even landing 1-2 spikes allows skulks to 2 bite armor 0 marines.
The lerk is paper thin, yes but IT IS NOT expected to be melee. It has spikes (range), umbra (ranged), spores (fly-by) and bite (melee) If you expect a lerk to play like a flying skulk, then you're doing it wrong.
Lerk shouldn't be dropped to 15 res, that just breaks the game/timings/resmodel and is a terrible idea. If you face a shotgunner, just glide behind him and bite once and fly away while dropping spores. You'll either kill him or have a skulk finish him in one or two bites. If you face a jetpacker, just glide and bite from behind and then fly away and use spikes. If you face multiple jetpackers, wait for support.
Why do aliens have 2 support classes and marines have none? Because the game is asymettrical and marines don't have any true classes at all. And no it doesn't mean that in a 6 v 6, that aliens are missing 2 players. Every situation is different. Consider that the lerk has umbra and gorge is healing and bile bombing while the skulks/fade/onos are leading the charge. In this situation, the lerk and gorge give the aliens a huge advantage.
Aliens damage does need a buff of some sort, I don't know how but in most cases, a well organized team of skilled aliens (something not found in pubs) are deadly from the beginning of the game to the late game.
Also regarding your comment about the carapace slow-down effect.... Alien Carapace gives armor and the tradeoff is slower movement. Marine Weapons give firepower/utility and the tradeoff is slower movement.
I'm not saying you're dumb or that the Lerk is perfect. The Lerk clearly needs some love/work/tweaking and assists need to translate to player's scores to encourage proper lerk play. I think my proposed idea about simply buffing lerk gas damage to make it equal in viabiity to leap/blink/bilebomb will solve that issue. Think about it, lerk gas used to be a 1st hive ability, now its a 3nd hive ability but the stats of the ability hasn't been changed at all. There is no reason to choose gas, because leap/blink/bilebomb are obviously better choices. Its like always choosing crag hive, in b215.
But my point is that all too often, people mistaken what the lerk's role is or simply play him like an utter noob.
<!--quoteo(post=1972528:date=Sep 6 2012, 05:59 AM:name=Ohnojojo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ohnojojo @ Sep 6 2012, 05:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1972528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Their bite or spikes is equivalent to TF2's medic weapons, the hack saw and syringe-gun. Neither are meant to do devastating damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If not devastating damage, then what? From what I understand, the Medic's weapons are merely there for show, or as a last resort. He is meant to heal, and that's pretty much all he is meant to do. The lerk has only his bite and his spikes, so what is he doing? Who is he helping?
The main problem here is not that bite and spikes are completely ineffective. They can do damage sometimes. The problem is that a skulk with leap is far more effective, and only has the downside of survivability. However, the survivability loss is not enough to make up for that 30 res cost. It really isn't.
Also regarding your comment about the carapace slow-down effect.... Alien Carapace gives armor and the tradeoff is slower movement. Marine Weapons give firepower/utility and the tradeoff is slower movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I snipped because that was the only part I disagreed with, the rest I was not bothered overly with, sorry if that offended you. Too often people have been trying to compare teh gorge to tf2 I am sure you can understand that such a bad parallel is detrimental to getting the problem addressed.
I have clipped a large part again to ask you what exaclty is the slow down that marines get as their armour increases? Marines dont get any slow downs as armour increases as far as I am aware.
The other areas you touched I will answer in just one big block (let me know if I missed something you feel is crucial). I know how to play a lerk, donated plenty of kills and spent long periods gasing while team mates attack (totally unrewarded on the scoreboard). The issue is that for 30 res he is just not worth the cost.
Lerk is support but doesn't actually want to get into the same room as the battle? Gorges are more battle ready even with their terrible speed. The lerk has Umbra...whooopie....bile bomb is better than umbra as most aliens strugle to stay alive even with umbra (and without exo's showing up). Bile atleast is going to damage exo's, IP's, PG's etc. Lerk is about as much support as the cheerleaders are at a footy game.
The issue with gas even if it is back to the early 200 build levels is that in its current format you still need to fly in and out. Now lets assume you have 2 hives to 2 upgrades you can chose from; Carapace or Regen Adrenaline or Celerity
Silence or Feign Death (though normally people cry for crag and shift)
So your lerk will want to take an armour buff right? Well that slows him down. You can off set that with celerity sure...but adrenalin is more useful as you can deploy more gas.
So you end up with a slower than vanilla lerk (easier to hit) that still cant stand up to w3 shotties or a weaker lerk that dies when it sneezes. You listed the lerk attacks 2 of which are melee (fly by requires getting in same space as if I where to bite) and spikes are dismal (sorry but 1 parasite and 2 bites kills a a0 marine...saying a couple of spikes does the same damage proves how poor they are...parasite does similar damage!). Umbra is solely defensive and does no damage so you have to exclude it.
Saying that the lerk in his current form for 15 res would break things is ignorant, JP's are 10 res and offer marines much more both offensively and defensively than a lerk offers over a skulk. Why would people bother spending 30 res on a lerk in its current format...oh wait they dont. The fact only 2 of the testers really play lerk shows how much of a niche it has become really only usable in limited circumstances...you will contribute more with 3 gorge bile bomb rushes for the same cost as 1 lerk.
For 30 Res lerks need to be viable late game, they cant risk getting close once exo's are out....and marines with welders are an issue. Make lerk gas a projectile and you will suddenly see the lerk reappear late game, fewer fades/onos as people will want to get gas around the exo's (without self sacrificing). That coupled with trying to balance the lerk against w2 a1 marines rather than w0 a0 marines would go a long way to fixing the lerk in particular.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
You can tell OHnojojo plays lerk.
If we must keep it at 2 with the buff (ugh.) then you need to make it cheaper to research, because currently it competes with leap, blink and bb.. and.. really those are all so clutch, and as much as i love and beg for spores... its a risk to buy it over any of those, both betting on players using it/playing lerk and with people using it successfully or it having as much of an impact.
So it remains a later game upgrade mostly... where..people have enough res for the fade .. skipping the timeframe the lifeform is meant for / most useful. ::Scratches head:: Still rather take 216 lerk any day, when it was viable instead of a bet.
I just want spores and spikes swapped back to where they were. Alt fire for spores was very convenient for running, and spores is what I consider to be the "class skill" - laying down cover and disrupting marine movements, especially early game.
<!--quoteo(post=1972585:date=Sep 6 2012, 01:35 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Sep 6 2012, 01:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1972585"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I snipped because that was the only part I disagreed with, the rest I was not bothered overly with, sorry if that offended you. Too often people have been trying to compare teh gorge to tf2 I am sure you can understand that such a bad parallel is detrimental to getting the problem addressed.
I have clipped a large part again to ask you what exaclty is the slow down that marines get as their armour increases? Marines dont get any slow downs as armour increases as far as I am aware.
The other areas you touched I will answer in just one big block (let me know if I missed something you feel is crucial). I know how to play a lerk, donated plenty of kills and spent long periods gasing while team mates attack (totally unrewarded on the scoreboard). The issue is that for 30 res he is just not worth the cost.
Lerk is support but doesn't actually want to get into the same room as the battle? Gorges are more battle ready even with their terrible speed. The lerk has Umbra...whooopie....bile bomb is better than umbra as most aliens strugle to stay alive even with umbra (and without exo's showing up). Bile atleast is going to damage exo's, IP's, PG's etc. Lerk is about as much support as the cheerleaders are at a footy game.
The issue with gas even if it is back to the early 200 build levels is that in its current format you still need to fly in and out. Now lets assume you have 2 hives to 2 upgrades you can chose from; Carapace or Regen Adrenaline or Celerity
Silence or Feign Death (though normally people cry for crag and shift)
So your lerk will want to take an armour buff right? Well that slows him down. You can off set that with celerity sure...but adrenalin is more useful as you can deploy more gas.
So you end up with a slower than vanilla lerk (easier to hit) that still cant stand up to w3 shotties or a weaker lerk that dies when it sneezes. You listed the lerk attacks 2 of which are melee (fly by requires getting in same space as if I where to bite) and spikes are dismal (sorry but 1 parasite and 2 bites kills a a0 marine...saying a couple of spikes does the same damage proves how poor they are...parasite does similar damage!). Umbra is solely defensive and does no damage so you have to exclude it.
Saying that the lerk in his current form for 15 res would break things is ignorant, JP's are 10 res and offer marines much more both offensively and defensively than a lerk offers over a skulk. Why would people bother spending 30 res on a lerk in its current format...oh wait they dont. The fact only 2 of the testers really play lerk shows how much of a niche it has become really only usable in limited circumstances...you will contribute more with 3 gorge bile bomb rushes for the same cost as 1 lerk.
For 30 Res lerks need to be viable late game, they cant risk getting close once exo's are out....and marines with welders are an issue. Make lerk gas a projectile and you will suddenly see the lerk reappear late game, fewer fades/onos as people will want to get gas around the exo's (without self sacrificing). That coupled with trying to balance the lerk against w2 a1 marines rather than w0 a0 marines would go a long way to fixing the lerk in particular.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"I have clipped a large part again to ask you what exaclty is the slow down that marines get as their armour increases? Marines dont get any slow downs as armour increases as far as I am aware." = Aliens receive slowdown for the amount of extra armor points you have with carapace. Marines are unable to sprint and are slowed down by the grenade launcher and flamethrower and walk slower with the shotgun. Exosuits are slower and can't sprint. __________________________________________
"The issue is that for 30 res he is just not worth the cost." = I agree, but 15 res is too little. I think lerks would be fine at 25 res. The class is fragile but has a high skill ceiling and very talented lerk players do exist. __________________________________________
"Lerk is support but doesn't actually want to get into the same room as the battle? Gorges are more battle ready even with their terrible speed. The lerk has Umbra...whooopie....bile bomb is better than umbra as most aliens strugle to stay alive even with umbra (and without exo's showing up). = Compared to the gorge, lerks are not are not as an effective support class. Don't underestimate Umbra though. Its a long ranged AoE buff that stops 50% of incoming bullets. Take one skulk with 70 and 10 armor = 90 hp Add Carapace +20 armor = 130 hp Add Umbra = +50% survivability against bullets = 195 hp And that's JUST for skulks. ___________________________________________
"Bile at least is going to damage exo's, IP's, PG's etc. Lerk is about as much support as the cheerleaders are at a footy game." = Bile bomb is obviously better than spores. This is why I think spores need a damage and radius buff to justify the research being a 2nd hive upgrade. If this was the case, spores would actually be considered more useful than bile bomb in some situations. Lets face it, blink or leap will always be the first 2nd hive ability. But bile bomb and spores need to be equally powerful. It is because UWE has simply switched spikes and gas around and didn't bother to buff spore....YET! ___________________________________________
"The issue with gas even if it is back to the early 200 build levels is that in its current format you still need to fly in and out. Now lets assume you have 2 hives to 2 upgrades you can chose from; Carapace or Regen Adrenaline or Celerity
Silence or Feign Death (though normally people cry for crag and shift)
So your lerk will want to take an armour buff right? Well that slows him down. You can off set that with celerity sure...but adrenalin is more useful as you can deploy more gas.
So you end up with a slower than vanilla lerk (easier to hit) that still cant stand up to w3 shotties or a weaker lerk that dies when it sneezes." = Ideally, Lerks require regen and celerity. If you are a very skilled Lerk, you can manage your adrenaline by gliding and only flapping to gain bursts of speed and make quick turns. If you are an average Lerk, regen and adren is the way to go for more firepower. If you are a noob Lerk and get carapace, you're doomed from the start unless you like the idea of being an ambush lerk or have gorges/hive/crag nearby. However, if you are leading a massive attack onto a marine base, its best to get Carapace and Adrenaline. And Umbra. 125 hp + 50 armor + -50% dmg from bullets = 337 HP Lerk. A 337 hp lerk, flying around, blinding marines with spores and buffing skulks/gorges/fades/onos with umbra. THAT'S DEADLY!! _______________________________________________
"You listed the lerk attacks 2 of which are melee (fly by requires getting in same space as if I where to bite) and spikes are dismal (sorry but 1 parasite and 2 bites kills a a0 marine...saying a couple of spikes does the same damage proves how poor they are...parasite does similar damage!). Umbra is solely defensive and does no damage so you have to exclude it." = Spores are not melee. You don't always have to get within melee range. Even if you did. The ability doesn't function like a melee weapon. It is in its own category of Flyby-AoE-DoT-Vision Impairing-Area Denial. I repeat, spore are NOT melee. Spikes are ranged. But they do kind of suck. They need to be more accurate and have less scatter. Either way, they're ranged and I've killed plenty of people and structures with them. In the end, its a support weapon. Umbra is solely defensive, but has applications in offense. A good defense is a good offense, and a good offense is a good defense. Either way, its a RANGED AoE ability. I repeat, LERKS ARE NOT MELEE, THEY ARE NOT FLYING SKULKS, THEY ARE A HIGHLY MOBILE SPECIALTY SUPPORT. _____________________________________________
"Saying that the lerk in his current form for 15 res would break things is ignorant, JP's are 10 res and offer marines much more both offensively and defensively than a lerk offers over a skulk. Why would people bother spending 30 res on a lerk in its current format...oh wait they dont. The fact only 2 of the testers really play lerk shows how much of a niche it has become really only usable in limited circumstances...you will contribute more with 3 gorge bile bomb rushes for the same cost as 1 lerk.
For 30 Res lerks need to be viable late game, they cant risk getting close once exo's are out....and marines with welders are an issue." =
Lets ignore the fact that comparing jetpackers and lerks is like comparing apples to oranges and look purely at the numbers.
Requirements for Lerk include: 1 Hive (Free) 30 P Res
Requirements for Jetpack include: 2 Command Stations (20 T Res) Advanced Armory (15+20 T Res) Prototype Lab (40 T Res) Jet Pack Research (30 T Res) Jet Pack (10 P Res)
While I agree that Lerks should cost less, 25 P Res. Its just plain dumb to think that a Lerk should cost 15 P Res. That would make them ridiculously over powered in the early game. And yes, three gorges with bilebomb is much better than one lerk. Lerks need a buff, especially in spore damage and radius or opacity to make the research worth getting.
Also, Lerks are not bad against exo's. I've been killed by my share share of Lerks in a large room. Exo's have a lower FOV and Lerks can run circles around a lone exo, but as soon as its more than one exo you should let other lifeforms take care of it. _________________________________________
"Make lerk gas a projectile and you will suddenly see the lerk reappear late game, fewer fades/onos as people will want to get gas around the exo's (without self sacrificing). That coupled with trying to balance the lerk against w2 a1 marines rather than w0 a0 marines would go a long way to fixing the lerk in particular." = Gas doesn't affect Exos. Lerks are still fairly effective against w2 a1 marines. It takes 3-4 Lerk bites. Or if you're smart, you can bite them once and lay down some gas in the path of the marine's escape. Wait 5 seconds, which is probably how long it will take to turn around and regen to max hp, and bite the marine once more and he'll probably die because of the DoT from the POISON BITE and SPORE CLOUD. _________________________________________
This thread reminds me of the "Fade Land" thread. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=120652" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=120652</a>
People complaining because they don't know how to play the game. The difference in this thread is that.... Lerks aren't nearly as well balanced as Fades. Lerks do need to be tweaked and reworked.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2012
The b216 lerk was broken for high skill play, the b217 lerk is broken for both high and low skill play.
The current lerk problems can superficially be summed up like this: Too high weapon and flight energy cost and too low bite DPS.
The lerk's purpose should be as a bridge class between skulks and fades; the idea being that you sacrifice some mid/late game power (less fades) for more early/mid game power (lerks). In order to make that work, the lerk needs to be effective throughout the early game. Without a long range option, such as spikes or projectile spores, however, shotguns essentially made lerks obsolete before the game even entered the mid game.
That's why I suggested to Flayra that he should swap spikes and spores, which he promptly did. Unfortunately, he also made some other changes that I did not suggest (nerfed spike range) and neglected to make the necessary weapon/flight energy cost changes, which is why the lerk is still more or less a waste of res.
I made a more in depth analysis of the lerk's problems and potential solutions in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=120054&view=findpost&p=1968891" target="_blank">this post.</a>
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1972820:date=Sep 6 2012, 04:41 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 6 2012, 04:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1972820"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What does the Lerk do that the Skulk can't?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Currently very little, other than being more effective at scouting the map because of its higher speed and having more staying power (more hitpoints, harder to hit).
Ideally it would be an improvement over the skulk by also providing significant support damage (spores) and more killing power (bite/spikes).
Comments
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->It hovars without flapping.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
But seriously.
The Lerk is more of a harrasing lifeform that picks away at the marines wherever there's weakness.
Use the one big advantage you have, speed.
Spikes and bite complement each other quite well when you get used to them.
You're supposed to use hit and run tactics like:
-Going in for a fast bite then finishing the lone marine with spikes as he chases you.
-Roosting in rooms with high ceilings and chipping at passing marines or structures until you get noticed then swoop in for a bite. Or leave, depending on how many marines are there.
-Clearing mines to help other life forms.
Attacking head on in their spawn of secured tech points will usually get you killed.
Lerk Bite does DOT and Heals the lerk over time
This would make the lerk have far more staying power and would bolster his Harrass role<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 really like this idea...Also i think that spores should be a ranged attack again since it's a 2nd hive upgrade. Usually by the time it's researched you're dealing with shotguns/exos and its not really viable.
The lerk lost it's viability in 217 for two reasons:
1) a bug that made spikes not as effective as they should have been thanks to weapon slot
2) spores were supposed to be buffed in dmg, but it was forgotten
And while i think this will help it will not solve the issue that plagues this current lerk: that he is not a viable early game life form.. his entire purpose is negated.
Why?
Because he is doubly punished by both
1)not having spores to obscure and properly engage the enemy as well as retreat (leap and blink and everything else always comes first) which makes zero sense for the weak, harrasing and supporting class thats used in early game (you know, when you first get 30 pres?)
2) having flapping costing energy destroys the method in which lerks engage their enemy, by mainting their aim on a singular player while simultaneously dodging their shots by flapping around. These two mechanics literally fight against one another.. and "bombing runs" or "swooping" while spiking is not accurate nor damaging enough to kill a marine in time to be effective...not to mention theres generally not enough height to make it effective, you are just closing the gap to that player's shotgun!
Its as if a nerf was simply given to him.
Which i know was not the intention...
So when the bug gets fixed it *might* help.. but its still a design issue so,
The way i see it: I know he needs one ranged one short, but that can be his upgrade! it was working just fine in 216!
bottom line currently for me personally:
My favorite class needs to start with spores to be worth 30 pres... otherwise im just saving for a fade instead.
:-/
EDIT: OH HAI SABA! :-P
As far as the flight costing energy: It's about as low as it can go without removing it (I am looking into how much we could increase the energy pool without giving it too much). Spikes: They need work, and Spores only had half the changes applied to them before it was released - the intention was not to balance it around adrenaline at all.
As far as the flight costing energy: It's about as low as it can go without removing it (I am looking into how much we could increase the energy pool without giving it too much). Spikes: They need work, and Spores only had half the changes applied to them before it was released - the intention was not to balance it around adrenaline at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good to know.
Also, don't remove Flight Energy cost please. It's the unique mechanic of learning to fly and glide properly for the Lerk class, and so rewarding to get right.
Because they dont work well together. (unless you make them lazer beam accurate with higher damage)
Because they dont work well together. (unless you make them lazer beam accurate with higher damage)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or you allow spikes to become more accurate as you go longer without flapping, allowing roosted or gliding lerks to gain combat abilities to offset their vulnerabilities without making twitch-Lerks overpowered. It even makes sense; the Lerk shoots spikes out of his wings, after all.
That just sounds like another hidden mechanic..
and no the lerk shoots spikes out of the small shooters on the sides of his head, examine him closely to see.
That just sounds like another hidden mechanic..
and no the lerk shoots spikes out of the small shooters on the sides of his head, examine him closely to see.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obvious mechanic is to have the crosshair/oval-thing grow every time you flap. Simple, intuitive, frequently used across FPS games. Also, his head's got to be jerking around a bunch as well with all that flapping! Lerks are the only ranged players in the game that can experience the kind of acceleration they do; even marines with jetpacks smooth into their accelerations to reduce jerk.
Also, don't remove Flight Energy cost please. It's the unique mechanic of learning to fly and glide properly for the Lerk class, and so rewarding to get right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dno. I always liked it as more of a meta mechanic where flapping = great ammount of ruckus, gliding = silent. If it went back to that, silence might actually be viable instead of adren lerk all day every day.
Bite: Great to have this back! But, shouldn't the bite be more powerful than a skulks? This is a 30 res lifeform! And he just got in someone's face to bite them! If the issue is taking down res nodes with bite, then adjust bite's damage against structures but not marines.
Spikes: You're a support class, this means you should be using these while skulks are attacking. Yes, you have to get pretty close to do respectable damage, but if the marines are busy with the skulks you can usually just sit out of their field of view and spike away. That said they still seem on the weak side.
Spores: Fine as is. Ya, it sucks commanders have better options for upgrades and you rarely get to use them. But since they sink now they're quite effective.
Umbra: Fine as is.
It's clear the devs wanted to design a alien class that has to get in close and risk dieing to be useful, but for 30 res and what it does it just isn't worth the risk when it can die in one shotgun blast. Well, at least early game. I still play the class because it is fun, but if I were serious about winning it wouldn't be worth it. A gorge at 10 res is a far more powerful support class, and cost a lot less.
@techercizer:
Yea thatd work but its now a lazer beam like i said. a very binary mechanic and very frustrating to be on the other end of this.
216 was the best lerk yet.
You flew in fast and crop dusted the room so you could swoop down safely and bite a few marines and then gtfo.
it was fun AND effective.
and your tier 2 upgrade felt like an upgrade that you could alternate between and that didnt remove the need for bite and most importantly you were NOT crippled if you didnt have it early game... unlike spores.
Yea thatd work but its now a lazer beam like i said. a very binary mechanic and very frustrating to be on the other end of this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh no, a lower-spread attack from a lifeform that is either sitting motionless or gliding in a straight line right at you. You know what would fix this? Shooting it. You've still got a more accurate, more damaging gun, and you can dodge around all you want.
The whole point of this is that it is <b>not</b> a binary mechanic. It's a smooth gradient between the current inaccuracy (or even greater inaccuracy, as balance dictates) and improved accuracy as time since last flap increases. It can lead to all sorts of combinations between roosting, bombing runs, hovering, and evasive flaps, all dynamically affecting your accuracy. That's more of a skill cap than flying unpredictably will ever be.
One such strategy would be to flap wildly while the Marine wastes his ammo, then hovering or even roosting when he reloads. This leads to a dance between the Marine and Lerk as the Marine tries to measure out his shots when he can hit the Lerk or when it gets complacent, and the Lerk tries to bait the marine into wasting his shots so he can make himself vulnerable to go for the kill.
You should install the Lerk Lift mod. It's sort of like that, except the Gorge is alive, spraying bacteria constantly, and <i>pissed</i>.
As far as the flight costing energy: It's about as low as it can go without removing it (I am looking into how much we could increase the energy pool without giving it too much). Spikes: They need work, and Spores only had half the changes applied to them before it was released - the intention was not to balance it around adrenaline at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How do you guys look at balance with the lerk, are you comparing it to marines with upgrades (ie Shotguns, W2, A2 etc)?
I cant help but feel the lerks fine right off the bat but once marines start to get any sort of damage of defensive upgrade the lerk quickly nose dives from a survivability standpoint.
In fact I think all aliens hit this issue, marines simply get harder to kill and can do more damage every minute the game goes on yet aliens dont.
Marines all get armour and damage upgrades for free by default (even exo's) aliens have to chose whether they want armour or regen, adren or celerity, Camo or Silence.
I am sure someone has said previously that lerk etc balanced against a vanilla marine from the 1 min mark of a game not a vanilla marine at the 5 or 10 minute mark (who has all upgrades).
Whilst you can to some extent get away with that on a skulk...maybe even a gorge..when you hit Lerk, Fade or Onos then its really shakey.
Ofcourse a lerk will devestate a vanilla marine from the 1st min mark...but you cant go lerk at the 1 min mark the lerks intended to evolve around the 3-4 min mark when marines have started getting either armour or weapons upgrades (or should have if they are not rushing exo's) so the marines around when the lerk comes out are tougher than marines at the 1st min mark.
The initial upgrades dont do enough but by about 5-7 min mark lerks are struggling with shotties, weapons and armour upgrades.
For a 30 Res investment the lerk doesn't stand up...I am the worlds worst fade (you see those fades that are really easy to kill and seem to blink into walls all the time....) but even I will now skip lerk and go to fade or onos.
I think if you aimed at trying to balance lerks to w2 a1 marines you will find the lerks a lot more useful in the middle of the game and once exo's are out. I mean it would be nice to fly past an exo and gas the marines trying to heal him...would be lucky to even get close enough to spore currently.
With the amount of damage exo's do and the weak state of lerks trailing gas is suicide preojectile spores need to come back to allow aliens a way to try and break up the marines circling the exo's with welders out.
Gas projectiles would do this nicely and coupled with ranged umbra would make the lerk useful and require less armour and HP buffs.
If there was points for assists, you would probably see lerks higher up the scoreboard and it would be clearer the impact they can have.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
Completely Agreed
While imba does make very valid arugments, lerks are purely support.
Their bite or spikes is equivalent to TF2's medic weapons, the hack saw and syringe-gun.
Neither are meant to do devastating damage.
I like that the spores are now a 2nd hive research. But they need a damage buff to justify its tech requirement and cost.
Lastly, I'm on the fence about the 30 res cost.
I'm thinking 25 would be nice.
Anyway, I believe that if lerk spores were buffed, we could see it being used as a <b>viable first upgrade with 2nd hive</b>.
On nearly the same par as blink or leap or bile bomb.
Because right now, <b>leap</b> is the standard first. (for obvious reasons: its an ability that free skulks can use)
next is <b>blink</b>: especially good if you have pro-fades. you can always upgrade leap after blink.
or <b>bilebomb</b>: for those gorge rushes with onos/shadowstep fades. Maybe a forward shift with commander-dropped gorge eggs. This depends on marine/alien spawn and res income, but is a perfectly viable specialty strategy. But I've pulled this strategy off before.
<u>BUT NOBODY GETS GAS.</u>
Imagine the possible strategies if gas damage was buffed so that it does fairly formidable damage and provides decent area denial. A quick third hive with patrolling lerks providing area denial? A hard push on marine base, forcing shotguns or double armories or flamethrowers.
Bring back shotgun spikes! That's when the lerk was the most fun. Right now, U only go lerk to mess around and you have to play like you're made of glass. It just feels like some lifeform I used to know :(.
Spores were really good when you had to prevent an all out charge from marines. You either pre-gassed where they were going to be running or fly in from behind them as they're running. It was effective. Now you shoot tiny pebbles at them and give them a good giggle before they blast your face in:(.
Completely Agreed
While imba does make very valid arugments, lerks are purely support.
Their bite or spikes is equivalent to TF2's medic weapons, the hack saw and syringe-gun.
Neither are meant to do devastating damage.
<SNIP><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your comparing the lerk to the medic in TF2?
Issue with lerk is its paper thin yet its expected to be melee.
Drop the lerk to 15 Res
or
make spores a projectile again. Reason this needs to happen is to break up groups of marines around exo's.....lerks take adrenaline as it allows for more gas, bites etc not celerity so a lerk coming into the range of an exo is a dead lerk (more so than skulks) as he is moving normal speeds. Lerks get 1 shotted by SG's....a good JP is tough for even a good lerk to kill.....exo's you might as well just type kill in console.
Why must aliens have 2 support classes (lerk and gorge) yet marines get none? This means that your down 4v6 (asuming 1 gorge 1 lerk) in a 6 v 6 battle.
Marines weapons increase in damage across the game but aliens dont.
Marines get 3 armour upgrades (4 if you include exo) aliens get 1...if they chose to take it...with a slowdown penalty (no penalties for marines)
Issue with lerk is its paper thin yet its expected to be melee.
Drop the lerk to 15 Res
or
make spores a projectile again. Reason this needs to happen is to break up groups of marines around exo's.....lerks take adrenaline as it allows for more gas, bites etc not celerity so a lerk coming into the range of an exo is a dead lerk (more so than skulks) as he is moving normal speeds. Lerks get 1 shotted by SG's....a good JP is tough for even a good lerk to kill.....exo's you might as well just type kill in console.
Why must aliens have 2 support classes (lerk and gorge) yet marines get none? This means that your down 4v6 (asuming 1 gorge 1 lerk) in a 6 v 6 battle.
Marines weapons increase in damage across the game but aliens dont.
Marines get 3 armour upgrades (4 if you include exo) aliens get 1...if they chose to take it...with a slowdown penalty (no penalties for marines)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You snipped my quote at the least important part to scoff at the bad analogy that doesn't completely translate literally.
My point was that lerk spikes and bite are not offensive, they are more support.
A lerk's poison bite has the potential to do 95 damage directly to health.
Spikes provide a nice softening for skulks. Even landing 1-2 spikes allows skulks to 2 bite armor 0 marines.
The lerk is paper thin, yes but IT IS NOT expected to be melee.
It has spikes (range), umbra (ranged), spores (fly-by) and bite (melee)
If you expect a lerk to play like a flying skulk, then you're doing it wrong.
Lerk shouldn't be dropped to 15 res, that just breaks the game/timings/resmodel and is a terrible idea.
If you face a shotgunner, just glide behind him and bite once and fly away while dropping spores. You'll either kill him or have a skulk finish him in one or two bites.
If you face a jetpacker, just glide and bite from behind and then fly away and use spikes. If you face multiple jetpackers, wait for support.
Why do aliens have 2 support classes and marines have none?
Because the game is asymettrical and marines don't have any true classes at all.
And no it doesn't mean that in a 6 v 6, that aliens are missing 2 players.
Every situation is different. Consider that the lerk has umbra and gorge is healing and bile bombing while the skulks/fade/onos are leading the charge. In this situation, the lerk and gorge give the aliens a huge advantage.
Aliens damage does need a buff of some sort, I don't know how but in most cases, a well organized team of skilled aliens (something not found in pubs) are deadly from the beginning of the game to the late game.
Also regarding your comment about the carapace slow-down effect....
Alien Carapace gives armor and the tradeoff is slower movement.
Marine Weapons give firepower/utility and the tradeoff is slower movement.
I'm not saying you're dumb or that the Lerk is perfect.
The Lerk clearly needs some love/work/tweaking and assists need to translate to player's scores to encourage proper lerk play.
I think my proposed idea about simply buffing lerk gas damage to make it equal in viabiity to leap/blink/bilebomb will solve that issue.
Think about it, lerk gas used to be a 1st hive ability, now its a 3nd hive ability but the stats of the ability hasn't been changed at all. There is no reason to choose gas, because leap/blink/bilebomb are obviously better choices.
Its like always choosing crag hive, in b215.
But my point is that all too often, people mistaken what the lerk's role is or simply play him like an utter noob.
<!--quoteo(post=1972528:date=Sep 6 2012, 05:59 AM:name=Ohnojojo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ohnojojo @ Sep 6 2012, 05:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1972528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Their bite or spikes is equivalent to TF2's medic weapons, the hack saw and syringe-gun.
Neither are meant to do devastating damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If not devastating damage, then what? From what I understand, the Medic's weapons are merely there for show, or as a last resort. He is meant to heal, and that's pretty much all he is meant to do. The lerk has only his bite and his spikes, so what is he doing? Who is he helping?
The main problem here is not that bite and spikes are completely ineffective. They can do damage sometimes. The problem is that a skulk with leap is far more effective, and only has the downside of survivability. However, the survivability loss is not enough to make up for that 30 res cost. It really isn't.
Also regarding your comment about the carapace slow-down effect....
Alien Carapace gives armor and the tradeoff is slower movement.
Marine Weapons give firepower/utility and the tradeoff is slower movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I snipped because that was the only part I disagreed with, the rest I was not bothered overly with, sorry if that offended you.
Too often people have been trying to compare teh gorge to tf2 I am sure you can understand that such a bad parallel is detrimental to getting the problem addressed.
I have clipped a large part again to ask you what exaclty is the slow down that marines get as their armour increases?
Marines dont get any slow downs as armour increases as far as I am aware.
The other areas you touched I will answer in just one big block (let me know if I missed something you feel is crucial).
I know how to play a lerk, donated plenty of kills and spent long periods gasing while team mates attack (totally unrewarded on the scoreboard). The issue is that for 30 res he is just not worth the cost.
Lerk is support but doesn't actually want to get into the same room as the battle? Gorges are more battle ready even with their terrible speed.
The lerk has Umbra...whooopie....bile bomb is better than umbra as most aliens strugle to stay alive even with umbra (and without exo's showing up). Bile atleast is going to damage exo's, IP's, PG's etc.
Lerk is about as much support as the cheerleaders are at a footy game.
The issue with gas even if it is back to the early 200 build levels is that in its current format you still need to fly in and out.
Now lets assume you have 2 hives to 2 upgrades you can chose from;
Carapace or Regen
Adrenaline or Celerity
Silence or Feign Death (though normally people cry for crag and shift)
So your lerk will want to take an armour buff right? Well that slows him down.
You can off set that with celerity sure...but adrenalin is more useful as you can deploy more gas.
So you end up with a slower than vanilla lerk (easier to hit) that still cant stand up to w3 shotties or a weaker lerk that dies when it sneezes.
You listed the lerk attacks 2 of which are melee (fly by requires getting in same space as if I where to bite) and spikes are dismal (sorry but 1 parasite and 2 bites kills a a0 marine...saying a couple of spikes does the same damage proves how poor they are...parasite does similar damage!).
Umbra is solely defensive and does no damage so you have to exclude it.
Saying that the lerk in his current form for 15 res would break things is ignorant, JP's are 10 res and offer marines much more both offensively and defensively than a lerk offers over a skulk.
Why would people bother spending 30 res on a lerk in its current format...oh wait they dont.
The fact only 2 of the testers really play lerk shows how much of a niche it has become really only usable in limited circumstances...you will contribute more with 3 gorge bile bomb rushes for the same cost as 1 lerk.
For 30 Res lerks need to be viable late game, they cant risk getting close once exo's are out....and marines with welders are an issue.
Make lerk gas a projectile and you will suddenly see the lerk reappear late game, fewer fades/onos as people will want to get gas around the exo's (without self sacrificing).
That coupled with trying to balance the lerk against w2 a1 marines rather than w0 a0 marines would go a long way to fixing the lerk in particular.
If we must keep it at 2 with the buff (ugh.) then you need to make it cheaper to research, because currently it competes with leap, blink and bb.. and.. really those are all so clutch, and as much as i love and beg for spores... its a risk to buy it over any of those, both betting on players using it/playing lerk and with people using it successfully or it having as much of an impact.
So it remains a later game upgrade mostly... where..people have enough res for the fade .. skipping the timeframe the lifeform is meant for / most useful. ::Scratches head::
Still rather take 216 lerk any day, when it was viable instead of a bet.
<!--quoteo(post=1972585:date=Sep 6 2012, 01:35 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Sep 6 2012, 01:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1972585"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I snipped because that was the only part I disagreed with, the rest I was not bothered overly with, sorry if that offended you.
Too often people have been trying to compare teh gorge to tf2 I am sure you can understand that such a bad parallel is detrimental to getting the problem addressed.
I have clipped a large part again to ask you what exaclty is the slow down that marines get as their armour increases?
Marines dont get any slow downs as armour increases as far as I am aware.
The other areas you touched I will answer in just one big block (let me know if I missed something you feel is crucial).
I know how to play a lerk, donated plenty of kills and spent long periods gasing while team mates attack (totally unrewarded on the scoreboard). The issue is that for 30 res he is just not worth the cost.
Lerk is support but doesn't actually want to get into the same room as the battle? Gorges are more battle ready even with their terrible speed.
The lerk has Umbra...whooopie....bile bomb is better than umbra as most aliens strugle to stay alive even with umbra (and without exo's showing up). Bile atleast is going to damage exo's, IP's, PG's etc.
Lerk is about as much support as the cheerleaders are at a footy game.
The issue with gas even if it is back to the early 200 build levels is that in its current format you still need to fly in and out.
Now lets assume you have 2 hives to 2 upgrades you can chose from;
Carapace or Regen
Adrenaline or Celerity
Silence or Feign Death (though normally people cry for crag and shift)
So your lerk will want to take an armour buff right? Well that slows him down.
You can off set that with celerity sure...but adrenalin is more useful as you can deploy more gas.
So you end up with a slower than vanilla lerk (easier to hit) that still cant stand up to w3 shotties or a weaker lerk that dies when it sneezes.
You listed the lerk attacks 2 of which are melee (fly by requires getting in same space as if I where to bite) and spikes are dismal (sorry but 1 parasite and 2 bites kills a a0 marine...saying a couple of spikes does the same damage proves how poor they are...parasite does similar damage!).
Umbra is solely defensive and does no damage so you have to exclude it.
Saying that the lerk in his current form for 15 res would break things is ignorant, JP's are 10 res and offer marines much more both offensively and defensively than a lerk offers over a skulk.
Why would people bother spending 30 res on a lerk in its current format...oh wait they dont.
The fact only 2 of the testers really play lerk shows how much of a niche it has become really only usable in limited circumstances...you will contribute more with 3 gorge bile bomb rushes for the same cost as 1 lerk.
For 30 Res lerks need to be viable late game, they cant risk getting close once exo's are out....and marines with welders are an issue.
Make lerk gas a projectile and you will suddenly see the lerk reappear late game, fewer fades/onos as people will want to get gas around the exo's (without self sacrificing).
That coupled with trying to balance the lerk against w2 a1 marines rather than w0 a0 marines would go a long way to fixing the lerk in particular.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"I have clipped a large part again to ask you what exaclty is the slow down that marines get as their armour increases?
Marines dont get any slow downs as armour increases as far as I am aware."
=
Aliens receive slowdown for the amount of extra armor points you have with carapace.
Marines are unable to sprint and are slowed down by the grenade launcher and flamethrower and walk slower with the shotgun. Exosuits are slower and can't sprint.
__________________________________________
"The issue is that for 30 res he is just not worth the cost."
=
I agree, but 15 res is too little. I think lerks would be fine at 25 res. The class is fragile but has a high skill ceiling and very talented lerk players do exist.
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"Lerk is support but doesn't actually want to get into the same room as the battle? Gorges are more battle ready even with their terrible speed.
The lerk has Umbra...whooopie....bile bomb is better than umbra as most aliens strugle to stay alive even with umbra (and without exo's showing up).
=
Compared to the gorge, lerks are not are not as an effective support class.
Don't underestimate Umbra though. Its a long ranged AoE buff that stops 50% of incoming bullets.
Take one skulk with 70 and 10 armor = 90 hp
Add Carapace +20 armor = 130 hp
Add Umbra = +50% survivability against bullets = 195 hp
And that's JUST for skulks.
___________________________________________
"Bile at least is going to damage exo's, IP's, PG's etc.
Lerk is about as much support as the cheerleaders are at a footy game."
=
Bile bomb is obviously better than spores. This is why I think spores need a damage and radius buff to justify the research being a 2nd hive upgrade.
If this was the case, spores would actually be considered more useful than bile bomb in some situations.
Lets face it, blink or leap will always be the first 2nd hive ability. But bile bomb and spores need to be equally powerful.
It is because UWE has simply switched spikes and gas around and didn't bother to buff spore....YET!
___________________________________________
"The issue with gas even if it is back to the early 200 build levels is that in its current format you still need to fly in and out.
Now lets assume you have 2 hives to 2 upgrades you can chose from;
Carapace or Regen
Adrenaline or Celerity
Silence or Feign Death (though normally people cry for crag and shift)
So your lerk will want to take an armour buff right? Well that slows him down.
You can off set that with celerity sure...but adrenalin is more useful as you can deploy more gas.
So you end up with a slower than vanilla lerk (easier to hit) that still cant stand up to w3 shotties or a weaker lerk that dies when it sneezes."
=
Ideally, Lerks require regen and celerity.
If you are a very skilled Lerk, you can manage your adrenaline by gliding and only flapping to gain bursts of speed and make quick turns.
If you are an average Lerk, regen and adren is the way to go for more firepower.
If you are a noob Lerk and get carapace, you're doomed from the start unless you like the idea of being an ambush lerk or have gorges/hive/crag nearby.
However, if you are leading a massive attack onto a marine base, its best to get Carapace and Adrenaline. And Umbra.
125 hp + 50 armor + -50% dmg from bullets = 337 HP Lerk.
A 337 hp lerk, flying around, blinding marines with spores and buffing skulks/gorges/fades/onos with umbra. THAT'S DEADLY!!
_______________________________________________
"You listed the lerk attacks 2 of which are melee (fly by requires getting in same space as if I where to bite) and spikes are dismal (sorry but 1 parasite and 2 bites kills a a0 marine...saying a couple of spikes does the same damage proves how poor they are...parasite does similar damage!).
Umbra is solely defensive and does no damage so you have to exclude it."
=
Spores are not melee. You don't always have to get within melee range. Even if you did. The ability doesn't function like a melee weapon. It is in its own category of Flyby-AoE-DoT-Vision Impairing-Area Denial.
I repeat, spore are NOT melee.
Spikes are ranged. But they do kind of suck. They need to be more accurate and have less scatter. Either way, they're ranged and I've killed plenty of people and structures with them. In the end, its a support weapon.
Umbra is solely defensive, but has applications in offense.
A good defense is a good offense, and a good offense is a good defense.
Either way, its a RANGED AoE ability.
I repeat, LERKS ARE NOT MELEE, THEY ARE NOT FLYING SKULKS, THEY ARE A HIGHLY MOBILE SPECIALTY SUPPORT.
_____________________________________________
"Saying that the lerk in his current form for 15 res would break things is ignorant, JP's are 10 res and offer marines much more both offensively and defensively than a lerk offers over a skulk.
Why would people bother spending 30 res on a lerk in its current format...oh wait they dont.
The fact only 2 of the testers really play lerk shows how much of a niche it has become really only usable in limited circumstances...you will contribute more with 3 gorge bile bomb rushes for the same cost as 1 lerk.
For 30 Res lerks need to be viable late game, they cant risk getting close once exo's are out....and marines with welders are an issue."
=
Lets ignore the fact that comparing jetpackers and lerks is like comparing apples to oranges and look purely at the numbers.
Requirements for Lerk include:
1 Hive (Free)
30 P Res
Requirements for Jetpack include:
2 Command Stations (20 T Res)
Advanced Armory (15+20 T Res)
Prototype Lab (40 T Res)
Jet Pack Research (30 T Res)
Jet Pack (10 P Res)
While I agree that Lerks should cost less, 25 P Res.
Its just plain dumb to think that a Lerk should cost 15 P Res. That would make them ridiculously over powered in the early game.
And yes, three gorges with bilebomb is much better than one lerk.
Lerks need a buff, especially in spore damage and radius or opacity to make the research worth getting.
Also, Lerks are not bad against exo's. I've been killed by my share share of Lerks in a large room.
Exo's have a lower FOV and Lerks can run circles around a lone exo, but as soon as its more than one exo you should let other lifeforms take care of it.
_________________________________________
"Make lerk gas a projectile and you will suddenly see the lerk reappear late game, fewer fades/onos as people will want to get gas around the exo's (without self sacrificing).
That coupled with trying to balance the lerk against w2 a1 marines rather than w0 a0 marines would go a long way to fixing the lerk in particular."
=
Gas doesn't affect Exos.
Lerks are still fairly effective against w2 a1 marines.
It takes 3-4 Lerk bites.
Or if you're smart, you can bite them once and lay down some gas in the path of the marine's escape.
Wait 5 seconds, which is probably how long it will take to turn around and regen to max hp, and bite the marine once more and he'll probably die because of the DoT from the POISON BITE and SPORE CLOUD.
_________________________________________
This thread reminds me of the "Fade Land" thread.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=120652" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=120652</a>
People complaining because they don't know how to play the game.
The difference in this thread is that.... Lerks aren't nearly as well balanced as Fades.
Lerks do need to be tweaked and reworked.
The current lerk problems can superficially be summed up like this: Too high weapon and flight energy cost and too low bite DPS.
The lerk's purpose should be as a bridge class between skulks and fades; the idea being that you sacrifice some mid/late game power (less fades) for more early/mid game power (lerks). In order to make that work, the lerk needs to be effective throughout the early game. Without a long range option, such as spikes or projectile spores, however, shotguns essentially made lerks obsolete before the game even entered the mid game.
That's why I suggested to Flayra that he should swap spikes and spores, which he promptly did. Unfortunately, he also made some other changes that I did not suggest (nerfed spike range) and neglected to make the necessary weapon/flight energy cost changes, which is why the lerk is still more or less a waste of res.
I made a more in depth analysis of the lerk's problems and potential solutions in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=120054&view=findpost&p=1968891" target="_blank">this post.</a>
Currently very little, other than being more effective at scouting the map because of its higher speed and having more staying power (more hitpoints, harder to hit).
Ideally it would be an improvement over the skulk by also providing significant support damage (spores) and more killing power (bite/spikes).