I think Wasabi forgot to post it, but he has refined the rules for subbing now:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Teams must consist of 6 players, however your team roster can be larger (Roster Due 9/14/12)
Substitutions are allowed, but only from your pre-submitted roster No Mercs unless approved by the opposing team in situations of Technical Difficulties or loss of player<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Arguably the better way for lower skill players/teams is to play other teams at that level with a B team of sorts.. not to have the same team subbing players around for matches... Having sub teams like that leads to unfair matches for the other lower skill teams that dont have a corresponding 'higher' group.
Doesnt matter much for tournaments that are small like this tho so its really a non-issue...
As for pratice honestly best thing for that is scrims/pcws against other teams, playing in a cup generally gets you a lower number of games overall due to the logistics and bracketing of it all.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1975824:date=Sep 11 2012, 07:02 PM:name=WasabiOne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WasabiOne @ Sep 11 2012, 07:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975824"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Rants makes the argument more conclusive, however please note in the more serious tournament(s) that rule will most likely be in effect so you should be prepared for it. but again this is for fun and wed love to watch some good games so LET DO THAT!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We never used this rule in NS1 so I don't see why we should suddenly start using it now?
I disagree with the reasoning behind it as well, but this seems like the easiest way to show how pointless it is -- eight years of experience shows that it isn't needed.
Great job organizing this btw., look forward to playing.
I should also add that the reason why most teams have 9+ players on their roster isn't because they're subbing players for some nefarious reason or have A and B teams, it's because they need that many players to stay active. It's kind of ###### when you then, on match day, have to tell one player that he won't be allowed to play at all.
Personally I'm glad to see Wasabi modified the rules about substitutions. I understand its one of those things that at first glance, kinda rubs you the wrong way. Why would you sub anyone at all unless you absolutely have to? So wanting to sub out several people suddenly seems...odd.
But to be perfectly fair, its actually quite rare for Professional eSports leagues to have rules restricting substitutions.
The CAL CS:S League (As well as the CAL:NS League) actually stated that an unlimited number substitutions were not only allowed, but that they could occur <i>during</i> the match, so long as the player being subbed out left before the player being subbed in joined the server.
Most of the time when you see league rules restricting player substitutions, they're usually for LAN Tournaments (though I'm not entirely sure what difference that makes).
Anyway, Hunter really kinda said it already. Its a moot point for us as there's really only one of us that would <i>need</i> to be subbed out (though the ping issue between EU and NA servers gives us another reason), and that one person is me by the way. So these sorts of restrictions don't really bother us, but we all seem to hold the same opinion on it.
Anyway, I'm still not even sure if I'll be able to make it this weekend, but we'll find out. I do think these beta cups are good for the game, but I guess I'd just really appreciate some earlier notice so I can at least plan for them. I'm sure there are others that feel the same way.
Incidentally, it was actually common practice to field a separate marine and alien team back in the early days of NS one Leagues. At least it was for Redemption, and no one ever batted an eye about it back then. As well, teams were not restricted to 6v6. Redemption played several league games in an 8v8 bracket way back when.
I do agree its somewhat a short notice, but again its just to keep the momentum, I can already tell you that if this goes smoothly with everything we are doing there will probably be another event in two weeks, just an FYI.... Thank you though for everyone helping out! We have 4 teams and are still looking for 2 more.
<!--quoteo(post=1975855:date=Sep 11 2012, 11:34 AM:name=Kasperle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kasperle @ Sep 11 2012, 11:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975855"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Denying new players the opportunity to get some serious practice in a beta cup isnt fair, at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> make a 2nd nxzl team or a mix with nxzl and some others that would liek to take part in it
<!--quoteo(post=1976197:date=Sep 12 2012, 10:54 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Sep 12 2012, 10:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976197"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only way they can be handled? By re-gaming unless it's a clearly decided game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the round was almost over the admin can give the round to the winning team. You can replay the round but not on a known server. In the last cup there were clearly something fishy going on so there needs to be a plan for it. Cant just replay until the "right" team wins.
<!--quoteo(post=1976256:date=Sep 12 2012, 01:23 PM:name=JuCCi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JuCCi @ Sep 12 2012, 01:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976256"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You also can't call a game on a gut feeling. Just because something looks over does not mean it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know and I agree. But since it was a huge problem last weekend thought should be put into it. Replaying a round four times is not ok either when there is shannanigans going on.
It should say in the rules exactly when the rounds will be replayed and who makes the call.
I'm not sure how this issue can be resolved either without knowing exactly how the crashes occured last week.
But my best guess is that it was someone watching the NS2HD stream griefing us all.
I would think a good place to start for preventing this is to make sure the IP or server name is never displayed on the stream, and to make sure the server being played on is not listed in the server browser (though I don't know how to do that, I'm sure its not too hard).
I would think it would be very hard to crash a server you can't find.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1976265:date=Sep 12 2012, 12:45 PM:name=Skuggan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skuggan @ Sep 12 2012, 12:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It should say in the rules exactly when the rounds will be replayed and who makes the call.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think it's possible to solve this through rules. Having a ref/admin call the game would create just as much, if not even more, drama than replaying it.
Ideally teams would be mature enough to call the games themselves, but this is the real world.
Comments
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Teams must consist of 6 players, however your team roster can be larger (Roster Due 9/14/12)
Substitutions are allowed, but only from your pre-submitted roster
No Mercs unless approved by the opposing team in situations of Technical Difficulties or loss of player<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doesnt matter much for tournaments that are small like this tho so its really a non-issue...
As for pratice honestly best thing for that is scrims/pcws against other teams, playing in a cup generally gets you a lower number of games overall due to the logistics and bracketing of it all.
We never used this rule in NS1 so I don't see why we should suddenly start using it now?
I disagree with the reasoning behind it as well, but this seems like the easiest way to show how pointless it is -- eight years of experience shows that it isn't needed.
Great job organizing this btw., look forward to playing.
I should also add that the reason why most teams have 9+ players on their roster isn't because they're subbing players for some nefarious reason or have A and B teams, it's because they need that many players to stay active. It's kind of ###### when you then, on match day, have to tell one player that he won't be allowed to play at all.
But to be perfectly fair, its actually quite rare for Professional eSports leagues to have rules restricting substitutions.
The CAL CS:S League (As well as the CAL:NS League) actually stated that an unlimited number substitutions were not only allowed, but that they could occur <i>during</i> the match, so long as the player being subbed out left before the player being subbed in joined the server.
Most of the time when you see league rules restricting player substitutions, they're usually for LAN Tournaments (though I'm not entirely sure what difference that makes).
Anyway, Hunter really kinda said it already. Its a moot point for us as there's really only one of us that would <i>need</i> to be subbed out (though the ping issue between EU and NA servers gives us another reason), and that one person is me by the way. So these sorts of restrictions don't really bother us, but we all seem to hold the same opinion on it.
Anyway, I'm still not even sure if I'll be able to make it this weekend, but we'll find out. I do think these beta cups are good for the game, but I guess I'd just really appreciate some earlier notice so I can at least plan for them. I'm sure there are others that feel the same way.
Incidentally, it was actually common practice to field a separate marine and alien team back in the early days of NS one Leagues. At least it was for Redemption, and no one ever batted an eye about it back then. As well, teams were not restricted to 6v6. Redemption played several league games in an 8v8 bracket way back when.
Looking forward to the twitch streams guys!
I really hope this one gets as much attention. Though, less of the server crashing sort of attention.
If I can't make it to play, I'll definitely be tuning in when I can!
make a 2nd nxzl team or a mix with nxzl and some others that would liek to take part in it
----
nvm rant said it already. lol
SUPER JELASS
Now only one way to solve this.
loser of f should be replaced by CHALLENGE AGAINST A THOUSAND WASABICLONES.
If the round was almost over the admin can give the round to the winning team. You can replay the round but not on a known server.
In the last cup there were clearly something fishy going on so there needs to be a plan for it. Cant just replay until the "right" team wins.
I know and I agree. But since it was a huge problem last weekend thought should be put into it. Replaying a round four times is not ok either when there is shannanigans going on.
It should say in the rules exactly when the rounds will be replayed and who makes the call.
But my best guess is that it was someone watching the NS2HD stream griefing us all.
I would think a good place to start for preventing this is to make sure the IP or server name is never displayed on the stream, and to make sure the server being played on is not listed in the server browser (though I don't know how to do that, I'm sure its not too hard).
I would think it would be very hard to crash a server you can't find.
I don't think it's possible to solve this through rules. Having a ref/admin call the game would create just as much, if not even more, drama than replaying it.
Ideally teams would be mature enough to call the games themselves, but this is the real world.