Alien territory means nothing
Imbalanxd
Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
<div class="IPBDescription">serious symmetry issue</div>This game bases a lot on territory control. Gameplay, game mechanics, game aesthetics, it all relies on the differentiation of territory. However, their seems to be a glaring disconnect between how territory functions for each team, and indeed whether it is important in gameplay at all.
First things first. Alien territory means absolutely nothing. Whether its just a case of the power being out, or if the place is covered completely in infestation, nothing changes. Aliens aren't meaningfully faster, they aren't harder to kill, they don't get utility from the infestation, nothing. All that territory means to an alien is a different colour texture. Furthermore, the closer the marines get to the alien hive room, the weaker the aliens actually become. Ambushing in your own territory rarely happens, and as marines encroach on alien territory, they are actually able to physically "kill" alien territory, which costs resources, which it doesn't for marines. This creates the need to attack recklessly, in an attempt to save assets. Furthermore, when the marines are in the hive room itself, aliens are at there most vulnerable. No chance to take upgrades means a massive disadvantage. Predictable spawning locations means easy targets. And because marines are ranged, they can spread out over the entire hive room, covering every corner. Though the marines are fighting in the very heart of the alien territory, they might as well be fighting in a fully lit metal corridor, for all the good it does the aliens.
As for the marines, territory also means absolutely nothing. The commander can do anything he wants anywhere he wants, marine territory or not. If he wants to take the area, for whatever reason, he can, for free. It doesn't matter if you are in marine spawn, an unpowered corridor, or a heavily infested tech point, medpacks and nanoshields flow like water. Furthermore, the closer you get to marine spawn, the more powerful the marines become. Rapid and continuous respawns means firepower rolls out of the marine base constantly. Territory can't be taken away from the marines, not at any meaningful cost anyway, so they don't actually need to leave the safety of their base. And once the aliens are actually inside the marine spawn, they need to congregate around a single target, while enemies spawn in synchronously from out of range. The melee nature of the alien team means they can't cover the room, and they are all in one location making it the easiest target in the world.
This creates equilibrium points in a map. With territory control pushing marines out of their spawn, and the same mechanic pushing aliens towards their's, these points of rest lie in the alien hives. Marines are continuously being pushed towards the hives naturally by the game mechanics, and once there, its nigh on impossible to get them out. This is why the leading strategy for destroying an alien hive is to simply walk in, and shoot it. No more strategy is required, no more tech is required.
Simply walk in, and shoot the hive.
First things first. Alien territory means absolutely nothing. Whether its just a case of the power being out, or if the place is covered completely in infestation, nothing changes. Aliens aren't meaningfully faster, they aren't harder to kill, they don't get utility from the infestation, nothing. All that territory means to an alien is a different colour texture. Furthermore, the closer the marines get to the alien hive room, the weaker the aliens actually become. Ambushing in your own territory rarely happens, and as marines encroach on alien territory, they are actually able to physically "kill" alien territory, which costs resources, which it doesn't for marines. This creates the need to attack recklessly, in an attempt to save assets. Furthermore, when the marines are in the hive room itself, aliens are at there most vulnerable. No chance to take upgrades means a massive disadvantage. Predictable spawning locations means easy targets. And because marines are ranged, they can spread out over the entire hive room, covering every corner. Though the marines are fighting in the very heart of the alien territory, they might as well be fighting in a fully lit metal corridor, for all the good it does the aliens.
As for the marines, territory also means absolutely nothing. The commander can do anything he wants anywhere he wants, marine territory or not. If he wants to take the area, for whatever reason, he can, for free. It doesn't matter if you are in marine spawn, an unpowered corridor, or a heavily infested tech point, medpacks and nanoshields flow like water. Furthermore, the closer you get to marine spawn, the more powerful the marines become. Rapid and continuous respawns means firepower rolls out of the marine base constantly. Territory can't be taken away from the marines, not at any meaningful cost anyway, so they don't actually need to leave the safety of their base. And once the aliens are actually inside the marine spawn, they need to congregate around a single target, while enemies spawn in synchronously from out of range. The melee nature of the alien team means they can't cover the room, and they are all in one location making it the easiest target in the world.
This creates equilibrium points in a map. With territory control pushing marines out of their spawn, and the same mechanic pushing aliens towards their's, these points of rest lie in the alien hives. Marines are continuously being pushed towards the hives naturally by the game mechanics, and once there, its nigh on impossible to get them out. This is why the leading strategy for destroying an alien hive is to simply walk in, and shoot it. No more strategy is required, no more tech is required.
Simply walk in, and shoot the hive.
Comments
Aliens used to get perks from infestation - faster healing, hive sight and later proposed faster movement. However that got scrapped since healing reduced gorge role, hive sight reduced drifter role and made marine sneaking impossible.
I miss the upgrades, but I can see why they are gone.
However territory does do one thing - marines cannot build on infestation, or without power. Aliens cannot build without infestation. I don't really see how this doesn't quality as meaningful territory.
Which means exactly squat for marines early game as they can throw structures down wherever they please. All it is is an expansion/econ limiting system disguised as a "territory game play mechanic". A lot of the time there are gaps in alien infestation that's not really that hard to find as a marine commander, unless the alien com decided to waste tons of resources to cyst everywhere. Kinda like how marines are required to spend resources to install power nodes- oh wait.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Simply walk in, and shoot the hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because alien gameplay revolves around the hive. What other major structures are in the hive room? A harvester and maybe a few upgrade chambers. Whats going to gimp aliens more? Kill the hive, you gimp aliens. 4-5 marines attacking the same hive and it goes down in 10-15 seconds. But apparently that's not enough to allow aliens to have hive teleport for the sake of asymmetry. Marines on the flip side, structures out the ass while each one performing a different function. Taking out a cc means absolutely squat and barely even comparable to taking out a hive. The only thing marines are then unable to purchase are jet packs and exosuits. They still keep all their upgrades and weapons working at full capacity. Edit: and it's piss easier to defend a marine base with all the handout mechanics they are given.
I think I preferred it when marines had to use welders to repair power nodes, and structures could not be recycled without power. Now its just easy mode for marine control.
That was too much to handle for the CoD crowd that's now makes up the majority of the marine population.
I agree.
I mainly play Marines and I prefer to play Marines but I agree alot of the changes that have been made just keep making it easier for marines.
In reply to the OP, I also agree, Territories needs to have a more defined role, more than just "I can/cant build here"
- Infestation should slow marines (5 to 10%, not much) and give hivesight of marines on infestation.
- Power nodes need to require welder to repair
- Recycling needs to require power
- Infestation needs to provide a slow regen to HP or maybe some other form of bonus (like a weak form adrenaline or celerity), hell they could even make it tied to the upgrade chambers.
Nevermind, no need for the developers to do it. When 1.0 arrives I will create a simple mod to put stuff like this BACK into the game.
Well and shifts for egg spam but that's quite an oddball thing as well.
Chambers are damn expensive.
Ideas that I support are:
instant resource retrieval when a harvester is planted. The logic behind this is the same as the rate at which a young tree provides more oxygen. Team will become more interested in where the khamm is building as opposed to where it has been (old harvesters produce less resource). Marine team will need to take and hold an area as opposed to just terrorising it.
Embryonic Shell; I can't really explain it it was in a post but it means that extra armor is awarded to new spawnlings for a short time.
Parasitical Whips: In NS1.04 'sensory towers' infected any marine clumsy enough to touch it. Well, I think if you get hit by a whip you should get the 'bug'.
Watch the aliens movies, you dont just walk into alien areas no problem.
I really hope they add dynamic infestion, then some kind of plant life, make it would grow dense so marines would have to use flamethrowers to burn who stuff.
Game has serious symmetry issues? The game is asymmetric so I never expected territory to affect both sides. Okay.. we get the marines are mostly range... and most alien lifeforms are melee.. You say the game has no strategy but you say there are equilibrium points. what?
Are you saying marines are OP or there is a balance issue?
Marine territory does nothing. At all. The only difference between a neutral room and a Marine room is that the Marine room has a giant weak point in the form of the power node. Even when comparing unpowered and powered, even though it's really not much harder to see in an unpowered room because of the emergency lights/flashlight, Marines can't function in an unpowered room.
Same thing with giving marines penalties on infestation. I think the only penalty was not being able to sprint on infestation, but even that may be gone by now.
And with alien chambers so fragile and expensive and Fade eggs so cheap, there is no way a competent alien commander is going to waste his res on fortifying his infestation. Not when the choice is between a fade and two whips.
But I can see where the desire to see a stronger territory concept comes from. I like the idea of feeling more in danger on infestation than off - feeling safer OFF infestation is the flip side...
Going to be interesting to see what will happen in that area when it comes to mods.
I'd also say that ARCs make no sense, they spend 90% of the time in which they can be killed on territory that is neutral or controlled by marines. Gone is 60+s during which aliens could destroy turret factory that was being upgraded NEAR their hive. That's just one example where NS2 has no balance in terms of moments of lots of action and little action.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But apparently that's not enough to allow aliens to have hive teleport for the sake of asymmetry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the funniest thing about NS2 - all this desperate attempts not to have anything similar between teams even if it makes sense to have it that way.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marine room has a giant weak point in the form of the power node<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well in NS1 you could have hidden behind arms lab, armory or some other building that shielded you. Power nodes are placed in such way that you're visible to every single marine in that room with few exceptions.
BTW there's serious crunch coming or massive fail, people didn't really whine on forums that often because they believed that everything will be fixed/balanced/whatever. I see more of these topics than anytime before.
You might as well make Welders standard issue if that is the case. Ergo, we return to the point we are at now.
<!--quoteo(post=1978462:date=Sep 16 2012, 02:35 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Sep 16 2012, 02:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978462"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Power nodes can be too much of an end gamer, and I don't like the pressure of having to research welders and then buy them before you can repair them.
You might as well make Welders standard issue if that is the case. Ergo, we return to the point we are at now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
However, I feel its unfair to be able to put a power node up for free. You should eitehr need welders or have the comm have to pay to drop a new res node in my view.
It's not like 1.0 will mean the end of development. 1.0 is just the public release. Plenty of post 1.0 plans.
...Oh, wait.
You know what I meant. Either a crunch or massive clash between expectations and what gets into 1.0. I'm not saying it'll be end of the world or any of that, it's just the feedback was delayed because everyone thought "it'll get better, right?" and lots of (useful) whining will come soon before 1.0.
I feel like it should be the other way around. Kill power in the Hive room by default (and maybe the adjacent rooms well), set power nodes in every room by default, and let light damage infestation.Not cysts necessarily, but just have Infestation recede when exposed to light. It would give the Khaam and Aliens some kind of interaction and make territory more meaningful. If the power is off in a room, then it belongs to the Aliens and the Marines are disadvantaged in a number of ways. Namely, not being able to build at all on Alien territory and having the lights off cuts visibility. Likewise, if the Aliens want to advance, they have to actually<i> take</i> Marine territory.
Infestation already gives small benefits to aliens. Notably:
-doubled natural regeneration for aliens (1%->2% I believe, maybe 2->4)
-reduced sound produced by running
-increased hydra build speed
Also, infestation is the source of buildings. Later on in the game when aliens have spare res to drop whips and crags and ships, infestation because a much bigger deterrent because there can be whips around every doorway. This usually isn't relevant in competitive play as the teams are typically coordinated enough to end the game before this happens, but it it happens frequently in pubs.
Try playing more and come back to the forums when you know how the game mechanics actually works.
Also, if marines just run in and blast at the hives without taking the lifeforms down. They will die. It is suicide.
Try playing more and come back to the forums when you know how the game mechanics actually works.
Also, if marines just run in and blast at the hives without taking the lifeforms down. They will die. It is suicide.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, say there is a hive room, full of infestation, harvester, the lot. One commander in the chair, one in the hive. Suddenly, zap, 5 light marines spawn and 5 skulks spawn, the marines at an onlooking location, the aliens around the hive. Combat ensues. Who wins? Do the marines have the advantage? Do the aliens have the advantage? Is it 50/50? Is it fair that its 50/50 considering this is the aliens central base? Would it be 50/50 in the marine base? Is the scenario equally balanced for the two bases? In my opinion, the answers to these questions are all unfavourable at this point in time.
Oh, and don't try and act like your superior latency and frame rate makes you knowledgeable about this game. Always remember that that is all you are, a person with a good computer, nothing more. What, you think you are good in a beta where 90% of players suffer from enormous performance problems and there are only 4 or 5 competitive teams? Please, a professional counter strike team with 1 hour of practice would wipe you out. If you want to make a point, you best back it up. At face value you mean nothing, just like everyone else.
They're not mutually exclusive. You can have power nodes and infestation and still have territory being derived from strength in that location. In fact, I'd say that's exactly how NS2 is right now. The benefits and detriments of each faction's respective territory mechanics are minimal and rarely impactful on actual battles when compared to the actual strength (ie 5 marines or 2 marines).
If territories are feeling to easy to penetrate, then I would sooner see an approach like removing sprint or addressing defensive/support structures than applying blanket buffs to areas.
Here is the underlying problem, as I see it.
Marines in numbers are stronger than skulks in numbers. That is to say, while 1 marine vs 1 skulk can be largely considered balanced, 5 marines versus 5 skulks is not. Marines have a superior force multiplier to skulks, and therefore are more formidable in groups. <b>This in itself is not a problem, and is simply asymmetrical play at work.</b>
The problem arises when 5 marines walk into a hive room defended by 5 skulks. The skulks lose. They always will. Because 5 marines beat 5 skulks. The skulks derive absolutely no advantage from being in their hive room, and therefore simply lose it. This was plainly seen last night in the first round of Arc vs Pokemasters. Arc got a single marine in and saw the hive, he didn't attack it, he didn't kill all the gorges around it, all he did was see it. Then he died. The the Arc comm said "kill dat hive plz". And the entire team walked from marine spawn, to the hive, and simply killed it. There was nothing more to it. Just walk in, and kill the hive.
That pretty much sums up the problem as I see it, continue reading for why I think this is a new problem with regards to NS1 and NS2.
The reason this wasn't a problem in NS1 was due to the scale of the map, and time invested in travelling to a hive. We all saw it back in NS1, when the marine team got a phase gate inside the hive. It went down almost instantly. The thing was that getting that phasegate up was really difficult. Without a phase gate, the marine team had to trek a long way to get to an alien hive. Imagine, you are playing ns_nothing. The comm suddenly says "hive going up in viaduct, quickly go kill it!". You would laugh at him. Viaduct was a good 2-3 minutes away from marine spawn. By the time you got there half the group would have splintered off and the other half would have been killed. In NS2, travelling from marine spawn to a hive room, even a hive room on the opposite end of the map, takes a matter of seconds. There is n organisational challenge in getting all your marines to one location. There is no time to take advantage of the enemy grouping. There is no downside to the marine's amazing force multiplier. This is why aliens need to be more powerful in their hive rooms. Somehow.
It's kind of hard to theorycraft this stuff though. Pretty much any change to how combat takes place or anything that affects the time taken to get something done has a huge difference to the end result.