Weapon Melee Stun
yehawmcgraw
Join Date: 2012-09-16 Member: 159694Members
Join Date: 2012-09-16 Member: 159694Members
<div class="IPBDescription">and why it doesn't belong</div>In the life of every skulk he/she has jumped a marine, cunningly wasted the marines ammo with dodges and feints, and <i>right </i>when they are about to go in for the final juicy bite <u>their legs stop working</u>. Marine crouch jumps and immediately pistols the immobile target. The tears, they will not stop.
"Did my keyboard cut out?", you ask, "Was there a lag spike?"
No, you were simply the victim of a weapon melee stun and you didn't know it.
The problems with this:
-As an alien (or most all of them) you are FORCED to get into melee range to hurt the target. This also happens to be the position in which you can be instantly disabled and killed <i>for no fault of your own</i> and <i>there is nothing you can do to prevent it.</i> Simply put, if you are in a position where you can bite, you are in a position where you can be instantly shut down. This is further exacerbated in marine groups larger than one. You see, as skulk that cannot dodge is very quickly a dead skulk. <u>Marine gameplay in ns2 my very well wind up having players immediately going for the weapon punch for a guaranteed kill.</u> Even the most skilled skulks can't do a thing to help their situation.
-(This is no where near as important as to point one) As it stands, it is very hard to tell if it will happen or IS happening and very few aliens even know it exists. It took me forever to realize WHAT was even happening. Why couldn't I move when I needed it most?
The solution:
<strike>Remove it =/</strike> (Edited:) Remove the stun effect
I can kind of see the thought process the devs have on this one, but as a see it, I think this ability is <i>unsalvageable</i>. You could make the punch a damage and knockback if you must, but this would just be less drastic version which has all the same problems of the previous.
Thanks! Ns2 is simply amazing!
"Did my keyboard cut out?", you ask, "Was there a lag spike?"
No, you were simply the victim of a weapon melee stun and you didn't know it.
The problems with this:
-As an alien (or most all of them) you are FORCED to get into melee range to hurt the target. This also happens to be the position in which you can be instantly disabled and killed <i>for no fault of your own</i> and <i>there is nothing you can do to prevent it.</i> Simply put, if you are in a position where you can bite, you are in a position where you can be instantly shut down. This is further exacerbated in marine groups larger than one. You see, as skulk that cannot dodge is very quickly a dead skulk. <u>Marine gameplay in ns2 my very well wind up having players immediately going for the weapon punch for a guaranteed kill.</u> Even the most skilled skulks can't do a thing to help their situation.
-(This is no where near as important as to point one) As it stands, it is very hard to tell if it will happen or IS happening and very few aliens even know it exists. It took me forever to realize WHAT was even happening. Why couldn't I move when I needed it most?
The solution:
<strike>Remove it =/</strike> (Edited:) Remove the stun effect
I can kind of see the thought process the devs have on this one, but as a see it, I think this ability is <i>unsalvageable</i>. You could make the punch a damage and knockback if you must, but this would just be less drastic version which has all the same problems of the previous.
Thanks! Ns2 is simply amazing!
Comments
No. Just remove the stun from the game completely.
It's one of the most horrible features of the game.
I kind of like there being a rifle butt to hit with, but the stun needs to change. Maybe just a knock-back or even just plain old damage. Right now the stun effect is really annoying and - well - stupid.
At least rifle butting certainly doesn't seem to slow down any of the skulks I've hit with it.
I certainly don't see how it could be considered an optimal strategy to rely on it to win fights.
At least rifle butting certainly doesn't seem to slow down any of the skulks I've hit with it.
I certainly don't see how it could be considered an optimal strategy to rely on it to win fights.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did not know, thanks for the info! I guess in engagements you probably should be constantly jumping as a skulk (I know I am), this might not make much of a difference.
I know. Lets make mines stun aliens and auto weld marines.
I have an even better idea.
Give Macs dual miniguns; the drawback can be that when they're cooling off, they can only fire their reserve claymore mine-launcher.
knockback from it: Meh.
Stun: I want to strangle a small defenseless animal.
Nothing is more awesome than smashing a leaping skulk to the floor and then filling it up with bullets.
The end.
I think the current problem is the ratio it has against the skulk. It is by no means something you would go into battle with, as the pistol is. However, it isn't really as negligible as it should be, I would put it at around 0.4:1 . One of the biggest and best trade-offs of these "alternative" weapons is the fact that the more you use it, the less you use your primary weapon. You can pull out your pistol and empty ten bullets, but that means it will take longer to get back to firing your more powerful LMG. One problem with the rifle butt is the negligible trade off. I will time it when I have access to NS2, but I think that the difference between emptying a clip and reloading, and emptying a clip, swinging once, and then reloading, is probably less than 0.3 seconds. That just isn't enough of a trade-off, not for the relative strength of the swing.
My suggestion is this: reduce the damage to 20 (I'm pretty sure its 30 at the moment) and impose a reload penalty of 30-40% for using it. So if the total time it takes to reload a weapon is 1.5 seconds, any reloads attempted within 3 seconds of using rifle butt will take 2.1 seconds. This penalty should apply to both the LMG and the pistol. I think the damage reduction will restrict this ability to only killing skulks which are really on their last legs, a real last ditch effort. The reload penalty will also make the use of this ability a <b>choice </b>, not a no brainer. It also gives the option for interleaving rifle butts inbetween your LMG and pistol, to minimize any reload penalties.
I think this suggestion is perfectly reasonable, in a practical sense, as you would think that swinging your weapon at a small dog would put you a bit off balance, and the context switching would slow your reload speed down a bit. As for whether or not it is a "hidden mechanic", I think that such a thing would be quite easily noticeable to those paying attention (the only ones who really deserve to know), but its relative obscurity may become a problem. I think a first person view animation of a marine fumbling with his rifle or something similar would serve to illustrate the consequences of using the secondary fire.
I think the current problem is the ratio it has against the skulk. It is by no means something you would go into battle with, as the pistol is. However, it isn't really as negligible as it should be, I would put it at around 0.4:1 . One of the biggest and best trade-offs of these "alternative" weapons is the fact that the more you use it, the less you use your primary weapon. You can pull out your pistol and empty ten bullets, but that means it will take longer to get back to firing your more powerful LMG. One problem with the rifle butt is the negligible trade off. I will time it when I have access to NS2, but I think that the difference between emptying a clip and reloading, and emptying a clip, swinging once, and then reloading, is probably less than 0.3 seconds. That just isn't enough of a trade-off, not for the relative strength of the swing.
My suggestion is this: reduce the damage to 20 (I'm pretty sure its 30 at the moment) and impose a reload penalty of 30-40% for using it. So if the total time it takes to reload a weapon is 1.5 seconds, any reloads attempted within 3 seconds of using rifle butt will take 2.1 seconds. This penalty should apply to both the LMG and the pistol. I think the damage reduction will restrict this ability to only killing skulks which are really on their last legs, a real last ditch effort. The reload penalty will also make the use of this ability a <b>choice </b>, not a no brainer. It also gives the option for interleaving rifle butts inbetween your LMG and pistol, to minimize any reload penalties.
I think this suggestion is perfectly reasonable, in a practical sense, as you would think that swinging your weapon at a small dog would put you a bit off balance, and the context switching would slow your reload speed down a bit. As for whether or not it is a "hidden mechanic", I think that such a thing would be quite easily noticeable to those paying attention (the only ones who really deserve to know), but its relative obscurity may become a problem. I think a first person view animation of a marine fumbling with his rifle or something similar would serve to illustrate the consequences of using the secondary fire.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The issue at hand is not about the damage delivered by the melee attack and how well it interleaves with other attacks. It is about whether it is fair to be able to apply a stun to the melee-based aliens. I feel you are confusing the issue. I think it's my fault however, I misspoke when I asked to remove the attack, I really meant remove the stun effect (I have just edited the post to fix this!)
I appreciate your analysis, though, I never thought of looking at it like different damage ratios (e.g. 1.5:1) at different phases like that before. The only thing I would mention though is that skulks often depend on the downtime during a marine reload as a safe time to attack, and minimizing or removing this vulnerability could remove this unique strategy from the game. Also, I do like your idea of imposing a reloading penalty.
I appreciate your analysis, though, I never thought of looking at it like different damage ratios (e.g. 1.5:1) at different phases like that before. The only thing I would mention though is that skulks often depend on the downtime during a marine reload as a safe time to attack, and minimizing or removing this vulnerability could remove this unique strategy from the game. Also, I do like your idea of imposing a reloading penalty.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm supporting keeping the riflebutt in the game to promote choice of attack between a broader range of options. Removing the stun will effectively make it a useless attack and no one will ever use it. Also I don't think the problem is the stun per se, I think its the stun followed by an instantly reloaded LMG. If the there was less chance of a marine using his LMG again after first trying to butt an alien, things may seem a little less infuriating.
The feedback issue, however, is undeniable. It is often very difficult to tell what happened.
The stun is a bug, it should only daze/blur your vision and do the knockback.
<!--coloro:#696969--><span style="color:#696969"><!--/coloro-->*wanders off to the bug reporter, there will be hell to pay if it ain't reported*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
This. I've been saying it since itwas introduced, but as usual it's like talking to a developer-shaped-wall.
It's one of the most horrible features of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except when Im playing marine.
<!--quoteo(post=1981376:date=Sep 21 2012, 11:28 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 21 2012, 11:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981376"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm supporting keeping the riflebutt in the game to promote choice of attack between a broader range of options. Removing the stun will effectively make it a useless attack and no one will ever use it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The cracked skull of many a skulk respectfully disagree, or they would if they could.
Id say leave the 20 dmg and maybe the knockback that it does but remove the stun.
Used exclusively by noobs. The knife does more damage, why would you possibly use the rifle butt?