<!--quoteo(post=1988223:date=Oct 7 2012, 10:01 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Oct 7 2012, 10:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988223"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(since you're charging right into where your enemies <i>spawn</i>, so no travel distance for them...)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The charging in part is where you are going wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=1988223:date=Oct 7 2012, 10:01 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Oct 7 2012, 10:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988223"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so it causes more stalemates<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where would the stalemates occur? Down the centre of the map? Right outside marine or alien spawn? The thing with territory based map control is that you make territory actually matter, such that having more territory is actually what makes you stronger. The way this would be achieved in NS2 is through the resource node system. More territory, more resource nodes, more resources. At the moment the nodes hardly even matter to be quite honest. The marines are able to take as many as they want really, simply walking out and capping everyone that come across, thought they only really need 4 or so (a very simple task). The aliens hardly ever endeavour to take more than 3 (1 in each of 2 hives, and then only one unprotected resource node, usually between 2 hive rooms). Resource node control matters so little, that when the game gets down to a single marine CC in a fortified base with only one node, the aliens still can't take it. Resource nodes matter so little that even one is enough. Territory advantages will eliminate the tired old cliche of an entire team trying desperately to knock the opposition out of their last stronghold. It will also serve to prolong the games where territory control is split right down the middle of the map, also knows as the "good games".
<!--quoteo(post=1987528:date=Oct 6 2012, 03:55 AM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Oct 6 2012, 03:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One skulk is supposed to be able to beat one marine the majority of the time, as long as the skulk isnt running in a straight line. Since NS1 the aliens have always been kindof the lone wolves and the marines the team players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol nope.
marine = 2 skulks top top skilled marine before 221 truck throwing skulk bite = 3 skulks
<!--quoteo(post=1988268:date=Oct 7 2012, 05:35 PM:name=male_fatalities)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (male_fatalities @ Oct 7 2012, 05:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988268"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->marines = 2 skulks<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Stupidest thing I have read today.
<!--quoteo(post=1988223:date=Oct 7 2012, 03:01 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Oct 7 2012, 03:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988223"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The danger with territory advantages is that you make attacking even more difficult than it already is<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think the problem is it is currently way too easy for marines to attack a hive.
Just a personal observation most people just don't know how to play skulk I can't count how many times I've watched a squad of bunny hopping skulks run straight at marines; that's target practice. I've taken out plenty of res towers and rack up 15-20 kills per round. You have to learn to use the environment against them, the only OP class in the game is the Lerk with spores IMO.
Ooopss.. removed the S from marineS<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Poor mf, typos ftw. Unless sops thinks he can take on 2 good marines as a skulk by himself? killing 2 - 3 or even 4 at distance skulks as a marine is as easy as ordering a pizza from home Perdy damn easy.
<!--quoteo(post=1988284:date=Oct 7 2012, 06:42 PM:name=AuroN2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Oct 7 2012, 06:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988284"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unless sops thinks he can take on 2 good marines as a skulk by himself?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Where are you getting this from?
marine = 2 skulks top top skilled marine before 221 truck throwing skulk bite = 3 skulks<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All you're saying with this post is that the game is imbalanced. Cementing my point. I'm pretty sure I read in the design mantra that 1 skulk vs. 1 marine should be balanced toward the skulk, forcing teamwork upon the marines. Since you know hitscan ranged weapons and the actual ability to cover eachother (an ability that aliens you know dont have).
Also align, I don't understand your logic. The aliens get stronger with more territory gained. If the aliens have obviously won a game they'll infest the whole map and the marines wont be able to stop them, breaking the stalemate. If marines own the whole map then the aliens will be too weak to hold back the marine assault, breaking any kind of stalemate. Where is the stalemate here? The territory thing will also put more of an emphasis on RTs rather than just hives, giving players more attack options, adding depth to the game.
In short: the L4D problem. This game unfortunately hasn't learned from L4D :S The aliens are almost 100% melee and the marines are almost 100% poor and dated gun mechanics. The marines badly need advances spear headed by games such as CS such as recoil mechanics, dynamic crosshair, context sensitive accuracy, etc. Right now, its more CoD, point and hold on target, dead target. The better you aim the more impossible it becomes to play aliens. The more you buff aliens, the more imbalanced it becomes for new/mediocre players.
In before: That's not how it was in NS1 / you must be new here.
<!--quoteo(post=1988306:date=Oct 8 2012, 02:34 AM:name=Clonesa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clonesa @ Oct 8 2012, 02:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988306"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->RE the OP:
In short: the L4D problem. This game unfortunately hasn't learned from L4D :S The aliens are almost 100% melee and the marines are almost 100% poor and dated gun mechanics. The marines badly need advances spear headed by games such as CS such as recoil mechanics, dynamic crosshair, context sensitive accuracy, etc. Right now, its more CoD, point and hold on target, dead target. The better you aim the more impossible it becomes to play aliens. The more you buff aliens, the more imbalanced it becomes for new/mediocre players.
In before: That's not how it was in NS1 / you must be new here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Disagree...
In short: Marines got better than in NS1, Aliens got worse.
Heavy got 2 HMG's. (can no longer be eaten) JP remained LMG, Shotgun and GL remained Extra Flamer (although crap)
Skulk - Xeno got nerfed (please fix this(you cant xeno then swap to bite... it cancels the xeno) Gorge... - no web. Lerk- No primal Fade - No metabalism or Acid Rocket... Onos - Can no longer devour (so heavies are now better)
Aliens in general - LOST FOCUS
... If Marines are going to be made better than in NS1... please make Aliens atleast as good as they were in NS1... I appreciate that NS2 is a new game and changes are good things... but please give the Khara something to equal the Marines.
Dunno, The fact that alien can be 1 shotted by both the shotgun AND the GL gives them the definite advantage. Theres no possible way for an alien to 1shot any marine even though we have to get balls deep just to land a hit. I think bringing back focus would really alleviate this problem of marines insta-killing aliens after one bite landing or without landing a bite at all.
Looking at the win/loss ratio this patch aliens are at 64% win rate seems marines don't have much of an advantage this patch or every bad player is on marines
<!--quoteo(post=1988304:date=Oct 8 2012, 11:27 AM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Oct 8 2012, 11:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988304"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All you're saying with this post is that the game is imbalanced. Cementing my point. I'm pretty sure I read in the design mantra that 1 skulk vs. 1 marine should be balanced toward the skulk, forcing teamwork upon the marines. Since you know hitscan ranged weapons and the actual ability to cover eachother (an ability that aliens you know dont have).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have not read the design mantra but if it says 1 skulk = 1 marine I'd be surprised.
You cannot make balance judgements/arguments in asymetrical games off one tiny factor. I will provide the most simple example i can think of:
Starcraft: 1 marine = 50 minerals = 1 pop 2 zerglings = 50 minerals = 1 pop
2 zerglings will always beat 1 marine. 4 zerglings will always beat 2 marines. 2 marines with micro will always beat 4 zerglings. 2 marines against 6 zerglings with good map positioning (behind a building on a ramp)
What does this mean? <b>nothing</b>. There are so many other factors to take into account (resupply rate, production, movement speed, skill ceiling, map, positioning)
Now let me translate that into NS2
1 marine killing 2-3 skulks can be balanced because of external factors outside of the actual combat itself. Skill, respawn rate, movement speed, positioning ect. The list goes on...
The actual combat itself does not always equate into making you win the game for NS2. Killing only puts you into a position to win a game if you have achieved a meaningful strategic advantage.
Another example:
If marines have amazing KD's but they are locked in their spawn and cannot move.. aliens are winning the game.
I think this is what makes NS such an amazing game. The fact that pure skills are just as important as game smarts and decision making.
<!--quoteo(post=1988306:date=Oct 7 2012, 08:34 PM:name=Clonesa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clonesa @ Oct 7 2012, 08:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988306"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->RE the OP:
In short: the L4D problem. This game unfortunately hasn't learned from L4D :S The aliens are almost 100% melee and the marines are almost 100% poor and dated gun mechanics. The marines badly need advances spear headed by games such as CS such as recoil mechanics, dynamic crosshair, context sensitive accuracy, etc. Right now, its more CoD, point and hold on target, dead target. The better you aim the more impossible it becomes to play aliens. The more you buff aliens, the more imbalanced it becomes for new/mediocre players.
In before: That's not how it was in NS1 / you must be new here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> L4D had a completely different problem. Not only were guns insanely accurate and deadly, but every infected attack 100% immobilized the infected player. It wasn't that the mechanics of the humans were broken (except for right click which was fixed after about 6 months and coincidentally NS2 just had the same problem fixed), the problem is that alien movement and attacks were and still are absolutely awful.
I'm sorry, what is the "L4D problem" exactly? Is it when millions of people buy the game and love it and its played for many months after its release and most critics agree that it is an amazing game with rock solid and innovative mechanics, going down in history as a very good game?
I hate that alien win ratio stat, they are gonna see that and be like op nup aliens need more nerfing, Aliens are gonna be even more tedious to play because of broken stat recording.
This is going to sound crazy,not sure if I should even post it but What if skulk's bite strength was increased a bit with more hives,to help them compete late game? Not alot, but enough where if you're stuck as one,it doesn't hurt/suck quite as hard?
<!--quoteo(post=1988354:date=Oct 8 2012, 07:27 AM:name=Codeine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codeine @ Oct 8 2012, 07:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988354"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hate that alien win ratio stat, they are gonna see that and be like op nup aliens need more nerfing, Aliens are gonna be even more tedious to play because of broken stat recording.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it's actually part of the core problem. The aliens can get so many lifeforms that they need to be weak in order to maintain a decent winratio. The strength of lifeforms is inversely proportional to their numbers; if alien can get twice as many fades they need to be twice as weak (more or less). Nerfing lifeforms instead of decreasing the amount you can get leads to the frustrating gameplay we observe.
<!--quoteo(post=1988375:date=Oct 8 2012, 07:54 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Oct 8 2012, 07:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988375"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it's actually part of the core problem. The aliens can get so many lifeforms that they need to be weak in order to maintain a decent winratio. The strength of lifeforms is inversely proportional to their numbers; if alien can get twice as many fades they need to be twice as weak (more or less). Nerfing lifeforms instead of decreasing the amount you can get leads to the frustrating gameplay we observe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I actually think that the data must be over cleansed or badly tainted as I dont see how aliens could be anywhere near 64%...I think games where marines recycle should be excluded (if they are not already). I see it more often as a result of the side booting the comm having decided they dont like his tech tree ideas than speeding up the end game.
I hope someone is looking at the data seriously and we continue to see so re-buffing of aliens to allow them to compete with marines. I should not be playing marines simply because its easier and more enjoyable even when I am losing (used to get the same feeling as aliens...not anymore, dead games drag on..more because you cant even come close to being able to compete than anything else)
I think the intentional nerfing of the skulk is the cause. I don't know who of the devs has said it, but they want to make the skulk weaker but with faster respawns to compensate for the frustration of often dieing. Thats why it always feels like losing when playing aliens.
I don't think this is the right direction. 1 Skulk vs 1 LMG marine should be fair and focused on skill to decide who wins. The game has enough encounters that are decided by the RTS part instead of player skill. (1 onos vs 1 marine as an extreme example.) That is ok. Thats why it is an RTS/FPS hybrid. But at least the fights between the default alien and the default marine should be fair and decided by skill.
<!--quoteo(post=1987617:date=Oct 5 2012, 03:45 PM:name=countbasie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (countbasie @ Oct 5 2012, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987617"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's still only Focus that's missing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol so true, tho i dont think its only focus that is missing. think itll ever see the light of day? nope
<!--quoteo(post=1987761:date=Oct 6 2012, 01:28 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Oct 6 2012, 01:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, a lot of games that aliens win you feel you are losing (or barely breaking even) at up to the 10 min mark.
Venem...you spawn a vanilla skulk (ie right out of egg) and compare him to a vanilla marine (right off IP)..compare these at these points; 1 - 10 second into game 3-4 min into game 5-10 min into game 10+min into game.
Now over this time the so called "vanilla" marine gets stronger...the skulk does not. I dont care how a skulk competes against an exo...just how it competes against a normal so called "vanilla" marine. Either a marine should take 5 bites from teh start or he should take 3...why make him get harder to kill yet the aliens get no similar buffing? Marines get 3 attack and 3 defence upgrades (they also get JP's and exo's )...aliens get nothing, heck even exo's get more armour.
Aliens need to be able to scale...you cant have one side just keep getting weaker...this is why everyone moans about "Skulk rushing"or"fast first hive" etc...the longer the game goes the greater the disparity between the starting lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
3-4 minutes into the game aliens potentially have 2nd hive and leap up (seen it up at 4 minutes, hive drop and done easily at 2). marines have armor 2 and full shotgun squads in 2 minutes? even at 3-4 thats a stretch. 5-10 mins into a game you should be getitng fades
"Either a marine should take 5 bites from teh start or he should take 3...why make him get harder to kill yet the aliens get no similar buffing?" uhh... idk if youre joking or just dont know about alien upgrades. or if youre making the argument that carapace has no effect on a skulks ability to take damage.
"Aliens need to be able to scale...you cant have one side just keep getting weaker" i agree, the onos is far weaker than the skulk. pathetically so.
<!--quoteo(post=1988240:date=Oct 7 2012, 09:44 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 7 2012, 09:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988240"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The charging in part is where you are going wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well, the alternative is for sieges to be the only way to win games...? <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sounds good, where do I sign up?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Not slow as in thoughtful, or evenly matched. Slow as in the players on both sides being defeated whenever they try to take anything from the enemy, and no progress ever being made. Slow as in unsatisfying, frustrating, and boring. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing with territory based map control is that you make territory actually matter, such that having more territory is actually what makes you stronger.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->A bonus <i>on</i> home turf (unlike ChickenOfWar's suggestion) would only help with defence, so none of the existing problems with attacking a fortified base would be solved with that; see below <!--quoteo(post=1988304:date=Oct 8 2012, 02:27 AM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Oct 8 2012, 02:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988304"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also align, I don't understand your logic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I wasn't criticizing your suggestion; <i>it</i> wouldn't make stalemates worse, like most "home turf advantage" suggestions would. Just advising caution so you don't start adding things like that.
...But mostly I think I just saw "home turf advantage" and leapt to conclusions without really catching what the actual suggestion was; sorry.
<!--quoteo(post=1988446:date=Oct 9 2012, 01:00 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Oct 9 2012, 01:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988446"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lol so true, tho i dont think its only focus that is missing. think itll ever see the light of day? nope
3-4 minutes into the game aliens potentially have 2nd hive and leap up (seen it up at 4 minutes, hive drop and done easily at 2). marines have armor 2 and full shotgun squads in 2 minutes? even at 3-4 thats a stretch. 5-10 mins into a game you should be getitng fades<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You avoided the question..compare VANILLA alien to marine, not different lifeforms but the BASE lifeform.
<!--quoteo(post=1988446:date=Oct 9 2012, 01:00 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Oct 9 2012, 01:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988446"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Either a marine should take 5 bites from teh start or he should take 3...why make him get harder to kill yet the aliens get no similar buffing?" uhh... idk if youre joking or just dont know about alien upgrades. or if youre making the argument that carapace has no effect on a skulks ability to take damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A marine takes 3 bites at start of game with 0 armour...but 5 bites with a3. A skullk does not see the number of bullets required to kill it increase (thanks to weapons upgrades on marines it decreases...even after carapace). Why do marines get to use fewer bullets the longer the game goes on but aliens are forced to land MORE blows?
<!--quoteo(post=1988446:date=Oct 9 2012, 01:00 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Oct 9 2012, 01:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988446"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Aliens need to be able to scale...you cant have one side just keep getting weaker" i agree, the onos is far weaker than the skulk. pathetically so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow...you miss the idea of scaling...even the exo scales but none of the aliens scale. Scaling is about how the DEFAULT lifeforms AS THEY INITIALLY SPAWN changes through the course of a game. Well it does for marines...but not for aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=1988526:date=Oct 8 2012, 07:53 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Oct 8 2012, 07:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988526"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A bonus <i>on</i> home turf (unlike ChickenOfWar's suggestion) would only help with defence, so none of the existing problems with attacking a fortified base would be solved with that; see below<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Defense of territory, which in this game equates to defense of resources, resources which aid in offense and defense.
I remember back to when I used to play NS1 and I remember as a marine you were pretty much meat by yourself. I remember getting separated in maps and thinking I was about to be severely ###### up, and was usually correct. I've never really had this feeling as a marine in NS2.
I love the idea about infestation having a negative effect for marines that are inside it. It is really annoying to see upgrades get ninjad by a lone marine with a knife in a matter of seconds. Forcing marines to destroy cists as they move into alien territory so they can operate effectively as a group would fit the marine feel I think, rather than old Rambo running past everything into a hive that nobody was lucky enough to spawn in (and it is just luck) and destroying all the upgrades before anyone has a chance to get there. Couple that with the fact that once marines get a phase gate network setup they can have half their team defending an expansion within about 10 seconds. I wouldn't mind seeing costs scale up for each phase gate dropped, including ones that get destroyed.
Would also love to see the gorge have a few more build options, perhaps options to drop res nodes, cists, or heal towers independently of the commander, using the players resources. Like a pocket commander.
<!--quoteo(post=1988654:date=Oct 8 2012, 10:24 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Oct 8 2012, 10:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988654"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You avoided the question..compare VANILLA alien to marine, not different lifeforms but the BASE lifeform.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I didnt avoid anything but ill spell it out for you. range - marine, cqb - skulk. if youre one of those sttupid skulks that are complaining that you should own both cqb and range fighting then im not even going to respond to that.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A marine takes 3 bites at start of game with 0 armour...but 5 bites with a3. A skullk does not see the number of bullets required to kill it increase (thanks to weapons upgrades on marines it decreases...even after carapace). Why do marines get to use fewer bullets the longer the game goes on but aliens are forced to land MORE blows?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why do you keep insisting that skulk be the most powerful attacker the alien team has. like you quote above, focus would fix that but you shouldnt be depending on skulks late game to deal heavy damage to attackers. and youre basing all of this on your opinion that both teams should play EXACTLY the same, which they dont, wont and never will. why do skulks only have to hit 3 times to kill a player whereas most marine players have to waste a whole clip?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow...you miss the idea of scaling...even the exo scales but none of the aliens scale. Scaling is about how the DEFAULT lifeforms AS THEY INITIALLY SPAWN changes through the course of a game. Well it does for marines...but not for aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
howso?
skulk early game-> lerk/fade midgame -> onos late game.
your whole point is incorrect as aliens dont stay one lifeform the entire game. "DEFAULT lifeforms AS THEY INITIALLY SPAWN changes through the course of a game."
i doubt you even understand your own sentence. as your whole argument is that alien players dont get stronger throughout the game. and if believe that then wow.
Weapons and armor 3 is a non ideal situation. Its the kind of situation you shouldn't find yourself in, not without substantial ability to fight back. Its like complaining that one hive aliens can't fend off a train of exos walking into their hive. Its a none ideal situation, you aren't meant to be able to fight back. You are being punished for mistakes made earlier in the round.
Unfortunately, with the current resource system, and the current cost of upgrades, level 3 weapons and armor is more the norm than anything else.
Comments
The charging in part is where you are going wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=1988223:date=Oct 7 2012, 10:01 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Oct 7 2012, 10:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988223"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and overly cautious, slow play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds good, where do I sign up?
<!--quoteo(post=1988223:date=Oct 7 2012, 10:01 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Oct 7 2012, 10:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988223"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so it causes more stalemates<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where would the stalemates occur? Down the centre of the map? Right outside marine or alien spawn?
The thing with territory based map control is that you make territory actually matter, such that having more territory is actually what makes you stronger. The way this would be achieved in NS2 is through the resource node system. More territory, more resource nodes, more resources. At the moment the nodes hardly even matter to be quite honest. The marines are able to take as many as they want really, simply walking out and capping everyone that come across, thought they only really need 4 or so (a very simple task). The aliens hardly ever endeavour to take more than 3 (1 in each of 2 hives, and then only one unprotected resource node, usually between 2 hive rooms). Resource node control matters so little, that when the game gets down to a single marine CC in a fortified base with only one node, the aliens still can't take it. Resource nodes matter so little that even one is enough. Territory advantages will eliminate the tired old cliche of an entire team trying desperately to knock the opposition out of their last stronghold. It will also serve to prolong the games where territory control is split right down the middle of the map, also knows as the "good games".
Lol nope.
marine = 2 skulks
top top skilled marine before 221 truck throwing skulk bite = 3 skulks
Stupidest thing I have read today.
<!--quoteo(post=1988223:date=Oct 7 2012, 03:01 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Oct 7 2012, 03:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988223"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The danger with territory advantages is that you make attacking even more difficult than it already is<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the problem is it is currently way too easy for marines to attack a hive.
ouch!
Ooopss.. removed the S from marineS
<!--quoteo(post=1988280:date=Oct 8 2012, 10:30 AM:name=male_fatalities)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (male_fatalities @ Oct 8 2012, 10:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988280"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ouch!
Ooopss.. removed the S from marineS<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Poor mf, typos ftw.
Unless sops thinks he can take on 2 good marines as a skulk by himself?
killing 2 - 3 or even 4 at distance skulks as a marine is as easy as ordering a pizza from home
Perdy damn easy.
Where are you getting this from?
marine = 2 skulks
top top skilled marine before 221 truck throwing skulk bite = 3 skulks<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All you're saying with this post is that the game is imbalanced. Cementing my point. I'm pretty sure I read in the design mantra that 1 skulk vs. 1 marine should be balanced toward the skulk, forcing teamwork upon the marines. Since you know hitscan ranged weapons and the actual ability to cover eachother (an ability that aliens you know dont have).
Also align, I don't understand your logic. The aliens get stronger with more territory gained. If the aliens have obviously won a game they'll infest the whole map and the marines wont be able to stop them, breaking the stalemate. If marines own the whole map then the aliens will be too weak to hold back the marine assault, breaking any kind of stalemate. Where is the stalemate here? The territory thing will also put more of an emphasis on RTs rather than just hives, giving players more attack options, adding depth to the game.
In short: the L4D problem. This game unfortunately hasn't learned from L4D :S The aliens are almost 100% melee and the marines are almost 100% poor and dated gun mechanics. The marines badly need advances spear headed by games such as CS such as recoil mechanics, dynamic crosshair, context sensitive accuracy, etc. Right now, its more CoD, point and hold on target, dead target. The better you aim the more impossible it becomes to play aliens. The more you buff aliens, the more imbalanced it becomes for new/mediocre players.
In before: That's not how it was in NS1 / you must be new here.
Its easier to be a good marine then to be a good skulk.
In short: the L4D problem. This game unfortunately hasn't learned from L4D :S The aliens are almost 100% melee and the marines are almost 100% poor and dated gun mechanics. The marines badly need advances spear headed by games such as CS such as recoil mechanics, dynamic crosshair, context sensitive accuracy, etc. Right now, its more CoD, point and hold on target, dead target. The better you aim the more impossible it becomes to play aliens. The more you buff aliens, the more imbalanced it becomes for new/mediocre players.
In before: That's not how it was in NS1 / you must be new here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Disagree...
In short: Marines got better than in NS1, Aliens got worse.
Heavy got 2 HMG's. (can no longer be eaten)
JP remained
LMG, Shotgun and GL remained
Extra Flamer (although crap)
Skulk - Xeno got nerfed (please fix this(you cant xeno then swap to bite... it cancels the xeno)
Gorge... - no web.
Lerk- No primal
Fade - No metabalism or Acid Rocket...
Onos - Can no longer devour (so heavies are now better)
Aliens in general - LOST FOCUS
... If Marines are going to be made better than in NS1... please make Aliens atleast as good as they were in NS1...
I appreciate that NS2 is a new game and changes are good things... but please give the Khara something to equal the Marines.
I have not read the design mantra but if it says 1 skulk = 1 marine I'd be surprised.
You cannot make balance judgements/arguments in asymetrical games off one tiny factor. I will provide the most simple example i can think of:
Starcraft:
1 marine = 50 minerals = 1 pop
2 zerglings = 50 minerals = 1 pop
2 zerglings will always beat 1 marine. 4 zerglings will always beat 2 marines. 2 marines with micro will always beat 4 zerglings. 2 marines against 6 zerglings with good map positioning (behind a building on a ramp)
What does this mean? <b>nothing</b>. There are so many other factors to take into account (resupply rate, production, movement speed, skill ceiling, map, positioning)
Now let me translate that into NS2
1 marine killing 2-3 skulks can be balanced because of external factors outside of the actual combat itself. Skill, respawn rate, movement speed, positioning ect. The list goes on...
The actual combat itself does not always equate into making you win the game for NS2. Killing only puts you into a position to win a game if you have achieved a meaningful strategic advantage.
Another example:
If marines have amazing KD's but they are locked in their spawn and cannot move.. aliens are winning the game.
I think this is what makes NS such an amazing game. The fact that pure skills are just as important as game smarts and decision making.
In short: the L4D problem. This game unfortunately hasn't learned from L4D :S The aliens are almost 100% melee and the marines are almost 100% poor and dated gun mechanics. The marines badly need advances spear headed by games such as CS such as recoil mechanics, dynamic crosshair, context sensitive accuracy, etc. Right now, its more CoD, point and hold on target, dead target. The better you aim the more impossible it becomes to play aliens. The more you buff aliens, the more imbalanced it becomes for new/mediocre players.
In before: That's not how it was in NS1 / you must be new here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
L4D had a completely different problem. Not only were guns insanely accurate and deadly, but every infected attack 100% immobilized the infected player. It wasn't that the mechanics of the humans were broken (except for right click which was fixed after about 6 months and coincidentally NS2 just had the same problem fixed), the problem is that alien movement and attacks were and still are absolutely awful.
That sounds awful.
What if skulk's bite strength was increased a bit with more hives,to help them compete late game? Not alot, but enough where if you're stuck as one,it doesn't hurt/suck quite as hard?
I think it's actually part of the core problem. The aliens can get so many lifeforms that they need to be weak in order to maintain a decent winratio. The strength of lifeforms is inversely proportional to their numbers; if alien can get twice as many fades they need to be twice as weak (more or less). Nerfing lifeforms instead of decreasing the amount you can get leads to the frustrating gameplay we observe.
I actually think that the data must be over cleansed or badly tainted as I dont see how aliens could be anywhere near 64%...I think games where marines recycle should be excluded (if they are not already).
I see it more often as a result of the side booting the comm having decided they dont like his tech tree ideas than speeding up the end game.
I hope someone is looking at the data seriously and we continue to see so re-buffing of aliens to allow them to compete with marines.
I should not be playing marines simply because its easier and more enjoyable even when I am losing (used to get the same feeling as aliens...not anymore, dead games drag on..more because you cant even come close to being able to compete than anything else)
I don't think this is the right direction. 1 Skulk vs 1 LMG marine should be fair and focused on skill to decide who wins. The game has enough encounters that are decided by the RTS part instead of player skill. (1 onos vs 1 marine as an extreme example.) That is ok. Thats why it is an RTS/FPS hybrid. But at least the fights between the default alien and the default marine should be fair and decided by skill.
lol so true, tho i dont think its only focus that is missing. think itll ever see the light of day? nope
<!--quoteo(post=1987761:date=Oct 6 2012, 01:28 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Oct 6 2012, 01:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, a lot of games that aliens win you feel you are losing (or barely breaking even) at up to the 10 min mark.
Venem...you spawn a vanilla skulk (ie right out of egg) and compare him to a vanilla marine (right off IP)..compare these at these points;
1 - 10 second into game
3-4 min into game
5-10 min into game
10+min into game.
Now over this time the so called "vanilla" marine gets stronger...the skulk does not.
I dont care how a skulk competes against an exo...just how it competes against a normal so called "vanilla" marine.
Either a marine should take 5 bites from teh start or he should take 3...why make him get harder to kill yet the aliens get no similar buffing?
Marines get 3 attack and 3 defence upgrades (they also get JP's and exo's )...aliens get nothing, heck even exo's get more armour.
Aliens need to be able to scale...you cant have one side just keep getting weaker...this is why everyone moans about "Skulk rushing"or"fast first hive" etc...the longer the game goes the greater the disparity between the starting lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
3-4 minutes into the game aliens potentially have 2nd hive and leap up (seen it up at 4 minutes, hive drop and done easily at 2). marines have armor 2 and full shotgun squads in 2 minutes? even at 3-4 thats a stretch. 5-10 mins into a game you should be getitng fades
"Either a marine should take 5 bites from teh start or he should take 3...why make him get harder to kill yet the aliens get no similar buffing?"
uhh... idk if youre joking or just dont know about alien upgrades. or if youre making the argument that carapace has no effect on a skulks ability to take damage.
"Aliens need to be able to scale...you cant have one side just keep getting weaker"
i agree, the onos is far weaker than the skulk. pathetically so.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sounds good, where do I sign up?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Not slow as in thoughtful, or evenly matched. Slow as in the players on both sides being defeated whenever they try to take anything from the enemy, and no progress ever being made. Slow as in unsatisfying, frustrating, and boring.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing with territory based map control is that you make territory actually matter, such that having more territory is actually what makes you stronger.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->A bonus <i>on</i> home turf (unlike ChickenOfWar's suggestion) would only help with defence, so none of the existing problems with attacking a fortified base would be solved with that; see below
<!--quoteo(post=1988304:date=Oct 8 2012, 02:27 AM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Oct 8 2012, 02:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988304"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also align, I don't understand your logic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I wasn't criticizing your suggestion; <i>it</i> wouldn't make stalemates worse, like most "home turf advantage" suggestions would. Just advising caution so you don't start adding things like that.
...But mostly I think I just saw "home turf advantage" and leapt to conclusions without really catching what the actual suggestion was; sorry.
3-4 minutes into the game aliens potentially have 2nd hive and leap up (seen it up at 4 minutes, hive drop and done easily at 2). marines have armor 2 and full shotgun squads in 2 minutes? even at 3-4 thats a stretch. 5-10 mins into a game you should be getitng fades<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You avoided the question..compare VANILLA alien to marine, not different lifeforms but the BASE lifeform.
<!--quoteo(post=1988446:date=Oct 9 2012, 01:00 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Oct 9 2012, 01:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988446"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Either a marine should take 5 bites from teh start or he should take 3...why make him get harder to kill yet the aliens get no similar buffing?"
uhh... idk if youre joking or just dont know about alien upgrades. or if youre making the argument that carapace has no effect on a skulks ability to take damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A marine takes 3 bites at start of game with 0 armour...but 5 bites with a3.
A skullk does not see the number of bullets required to kill it increase (thanks to weapons upgrades on marines it decreases...even after carapace).
Why do marines get to use fewer bullets the longer the game goes on but aliens are forced to land MORE blows?
<!--quoteo(post=1988446:date=Oct 9 2012, 01:00 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Oct 9 2012, 01:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988446"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Aliens need to be able to scale...you cant have one side just keep getting weaker"
i agree, the onos is far weaker than the skulk. pathetically so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow...you miss the idea of scaling...even the exo scales but none of the aliens scale.
Scaling is about how the DEFAULT lifeforms AS THEY INITIALLY SPAWN changes through the course of a game.
Well it does for marines...but not for aliens.
Defense of territory, which in this game equates to defense of resources, resources which aid in offense and defense.
I love the idea about infestation having a negative effect for marines that are inside it. It is really annoying to see upgrades get ninjad by a lone marine with a knife in a matter of seconds. Forcing marines to destroy cists as they move into alien territory so they can operate effectively as a group would fit the marine feel I think, rather than old Rambo running past everything into a hive that nobody was lucky enough to spawn in (and it is just luck) and destroying all the upgrades before anyone has a chance to get there. Couple that with the fact that once marines get a phase gate network setup they can have half their team defending an expansion within about 10 seconds. I wouldn't mind seeing costs scale up for each phase gate dropped, including ones that get destroyed.
Would also love to see the gorge have a few more build options, perhaps options to drop res nodes, cists, or heal towers independently of the commander, using the players resources. Like a pocket commander.
I didnt avoid anything but ill spell it out for you. range - marine, cqb - skulk. if youre one of those sttupid skulks that are complaining that you should own both cqb and range fighting then im not even going to respond to that.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A marine takes 3 bites at start of game with 0 armour...but 5 bites with a3.
A skullk does not see the number of bullets required to kill it increase (thanks to weapons upgrades on marines it decreases...even after carapace).
Why do marines get to use fewer bullets the longer the game goes on but aliens are forced to land MORE blows?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why do you keep insisting that skulk be the most powerful attacker the alien team has. like you quote above, focus would fix that but you shouldnt be depending on skulks late game to deal heavy damage to attackers. and youre basing all of this on your opinion that both teams should play EXACTLY the same, which they dont, wont and never will. why do skulks only have to hit 3 times to kill a player whereas most marine players have to waste a whole clip?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow...you miss the idea of scaling...even the exo scales but none of the aliens scale.
Scaling is about how the DEFAULT lifeforms AS THEY INITIALLY SPAWN changes through the course of a game.
Well it does for marines...but not for aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
howso?
skulk early game-> lerk/fade midgame -> onos late game.
your whole point is incorrect as aliens dont stay one lifeform the entire game.
"DEFAULT lifeforms AS THEY INITIALLY SPAWN changes through the course of a game."
i doubt you even understand your own sentence. as your whole argument is that alien players dont get stronger throughout the game. and if believe that then wow.
but thats what you dont get and im done.
Unfortunately, with the current resource system, and the current cost of upgrades, level 3 weapons and armor is more the norm than anything else.