Power node "cover" Exploit

HeatSurgeHeatSurge Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
edited October 2012 in NS2 General Discussion
I didn't take a screenshot, but I saw something being deliberately done yesterday which deserves attention.

A marine commander was placing an armory (the specific place in question was terminal in ns2_docking) over the power node in such a way that it completely covered the power node - repeatedly. There was no way to attack the power node because the model of the armory completely "enveloped" the power node as a cheap shield :-) .

I'm not sure if this can be done on other power nodes on other maps, but IMO this is a pretty serious exploit.

Perhaps there should be a very small area around the power node where no structures can be built, or some kind of collision checking. If that's already present, I'm not sure how he was doing it; I'll try to reproduce it when the other maps come out in explore mode...
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Comments

  • DethGauntDethGaunt Join Date: 2003-06-02 Member: 16938Members
    Sounds like clever use of game mechanics to me!
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  • DghelneshiDghelneshi Aims to surpass Fana in post edits. Join Date: 2011-11-01 Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited October 2012
    Blocking the Power Node with an Armory is totally acceptable. Building an Armory <b>"inside"</b> the Power Node however is a bug and not acceptable, just like placing buildings inside map props for example.
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  • HeatSurgeHeatSurge Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited October 2012
    They might as well make a power node cover which costs 10 res and has the same health as an armory. At least it will look better...

    If this can be done on all tech point power nodes, I can see EVERYONE, and I mean EVERYONE doing this in a few days. I don't think people will be impressed by that "clever use of game mechanics" on release day :-) . Just my opinion ;-) .

    Edit: Just to clarify, the armory was COMPLETELY ENVELOPING the power node. It was not next to the power node; the model of the power node was INSIDE the armory model (which was clipping into the column where the power node is located). There was no way to attack the power node, from any side including above. The power node was completely INSIDE the armory, so the armory had to completely be eliminated before the power node could even be hit.
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  • SkieSkie Skulk Progenitor Join Date: 2003-10-18 Member: 21766Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
    Marines have quite a lax res model right now, able to spend 10 res easily on covers like that. But gorge bilebomb nicely chews through the armory and power node at the same time. Usually you can lob enough bile to destroy an armory before dying as a gorge.

    But yeah, maybe a check is needed so that one model can't envelop the other.
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  • HeatSurgeHeatSurge Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited October 2012
    I never saw this before or came up with the idea. I only wonder, why was this not being done in competitive matches if people knew about it? Covering the command power node on veil would be a pretty nice buffer to skulk rushes early game...
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  • MuckyMcFlyMuckyMcFly Join Date: 2012-03-19 Member: 148982Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    What next, a compaint that gorges are blocking hives / RT's with their goo walls? lol.

    You obviously never seen a commander blocking entrances to terminal with turret factories, a tactic Ive used plenty to stop onos rushes end game, before the f4 quitters took over. x
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  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited October 2012
    The solution to structure blocking is bilebomb.
    <!--quoteo(post=1987315:date=Oct 5 2012, 12:45 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 5 2012, 12:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987315"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I never saw this before or came up with the idea. I only wonder, why was this not being done in competitive matches if people knew about it? Covering the command power node on veil would be a pretty nice buffer to skulk rushes early game...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Armory blocking is very much used in competetive games when onos is out, and marines have plenty of res.
    Armory blocks are not for skulks, they are for delaying onos.
    Doing armory blocks in the earlygame is a waste of res.
    Also, if the skulks are rushing base early on, they are better off focusing the command station.
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  • peregrinusperegrinus Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72445Members
    edited October 2012
    He didn't say it was blocking the power node like robotics factories block entrances or goo walls block corridors.

    <b>The power node was INSIDE the armoury. </b>

    That means you can't hit the power node until the armoury is destroyed. Unless you have bile bomb.

    There's no intended game mechanic there only glitches.

    Honestly people have made excuses for every bug or glitch. If you died to the instagib flame thrower "it's your fault for letting them upgrade to flame throwers". Can't kill the lerks that flew outside the map and are invulnerable? "Should have shot them before they went through the hole in the map noob".
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  • HeatSurgeHeatSurge Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    No, because what the gorges can do with clogs is (mostly) an intended game design decision. They pay for those clogs by paying for the gorge and using their energy and time to set them up. I do have a complaint about using the clogs as ladders to get to places on the maps and then bile bomb things out of direct LOS, but that's a whole another can of worms.

    The complaint here is that the armory is being used in a way that is <b>clearly</b> not intended by the developers or the design of the game - and the clarity of that is so obvious that you must have some serious deficiencies to even question that.

    I am not opposed to creating a "power node shield" which costs 10 res and has the same health as an armory; that would be interesting. But to keep glitching the armories into the power nodes quite plainly makes the game look bad.

    And no, I haven't seen the specific blocking exploit that you're mentioning. I have seen an armory blocking system waypointing on veil though, so an onos couldn't get to sub from Y junction without destroying it. I'm willing to attribute that to bad map design, I suppose, and while I'm not a fan of blocking pathways with structures I can see that they do cost money so it's a semi-valid strategy.

    All that aside though, blocking the <b>power node</b> which is an essential structure to game balance, game design, gameplay, etc. etc. just escalates, let's call it the "questionable practice" of blocking to an entire new level.
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  • KurrineKurrine Join Date: 2010-07-03 Member: 72235Members
    edited October 2012
    <!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro-->Wow, we're getting a thread on this just now? This has been done for so long already I don't even consider it not a normal part of this game. Conceptually lame or not, I hate power nodes (about as much as Infestation limiting alien build) as a mechanic so it's a tad hard for me to get broken up about it, nor do I find it exactly making my game less fun than the nodes already do. I can't say I've ever done it myself though, I don't com too often as I don't think I multitask well under the pressure of supporting live units.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
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  • NeoRussiaNeoRussia Join Date: 2012-08-04 Member: 154743Members
    Sounds like a creative use of game mechanics to me, I've seen this done before. Just used the armoury as cover and then went gorge to clog up the power node, their plan backfired because they couldn't get to the power node to repair it past all those clogs and the armoury.
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  • RuntehRunteh Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    This has been common practice since forever.
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  • HeatSurgeHeatSurge Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1987353:date=Oct 5 2012, 06:08 AM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Oct 5 2012, 06:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sounds like a creative use of game mechanics to me, I've seen this done before. Just used the armoury as cover and then went gorge to clog up the power node, their plan backfired because they couldn't get to the power node to repair it past all those clogs and the armoury.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I'm not sure you understand what the armory placement I'm describing is. The power node could not be touched (repaired by marines, clogged around, hit by lerk spikes, hit by an onos punch) etc. etc. The model of the power node was completely INSIDE the armory (part of the armory was clipping inside the wall). Moreover, since it's the terminal power node I'm talking about, going gorge anywhere near it would be quite hilarious, if you know what I mean (except late-game with the rest of the team)...

    I'll just take a screenshot if I see it again.

    Again, I'm not talking about blocking a hallway, a doorway, or anything like that with an armory. I'm talking about placing an armory in such a way that it completely envelops the power node as a "shroud"/shield.
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  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1987311:date=Oct 5 2012, 10:39 AM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Oct 5 2012, 10:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987311"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines have quite a lax res model right now, able to spend 10 res easily on covers like that. But gorge bilebomb nicely chews through the armory and power node at the same time. Usually you can lob enough bile to destroy an armory before dying as a gorge.

    But yeah, maybe a check is needed so that one model can't envelop the other.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Bilebomb will bite the marines in their ass. Negating damage other than bilebomb, causes marines unable to fix the powernode wiht it being blocked from damage and welders :P


    And yes that check should be in, but the entire collisions system is wacky right now. Pinball mode much?
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  • {GGs} Chicken{GGs} Chicken Join Date: 2011-11-22 Member: 134663Members, NS2 Map Tester
    Don't see a problem. Sounds like a good player-made bandaid fix for bad game mechanics.
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  • azurescorchazurescorch Join Date: 2012-09-29 Member: 161030Members, Reinforced - Silver
    I saw this a few days ago. The game should of been over within 20minutes, instead it dragged on over an hour. They were held up in Veil Subsector, it's not easy to bile bomb the power in that room. So doing it from a distance wasn't an option, especially not in an unorganized public server.

    I don't know why people are drawing parallels between this and gorge clogs. The game play between marines and aliens isn't symmetrical. Besides you can kill a clog in a few seconds with just one marine, it takes quite a while to eat through some of the marine structures.
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  • maD maXmaD maX Join Date: 2010-01-28 Member: 70347Members
    i have been using this "glitch" and others since well a long time... there are many other examples where the game alows you to have 2 objects occupy the same space, try tram, go to gen and drop a shell insde the crate near the door, you can usually get 2 spurs and 2 shells in their where only a tiny bit is exposed, and 2 clogs will cover that up (in the end it looks like natural infestation....

    Currently structure collisions arnt perfect but it works on both sides, so until they fix it just go with it... if rines are hiding a powernode inside an armory hid your spur inside a crate....
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  • BeelzebubBeelzebub Join Date: 2012-08-12 Member: 155506Members
    Yup this has been going on as long as i can remember playing this. Never really thought about it being an exploited bug, I've seen it done many time and have done it myself many times.
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  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited October 2012
    The worst part is when they used robotics factories to block the lower half of the power node so marines could always easily shoot the skulks and other aliens biting on the node.

    <img src="http://i.imgur.com/wogrv.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
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  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I'm not a fan of it, but its pretty well accepted in both pub and comp play (except for the case of using it to turtle a lost match).
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  • azurescorchazurescorch Join Date: 2012-09-29 Member: 161030Members, Reinforced - Silver
    <!--quoteo(post=1987499:date=Oct 5 2012, 05:58 PM:name=maD maX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (maD maX @ Oct 5 2012, 05:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987499"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->drop a shell insde the crate near the door, you can usually get 2 spurs and 2 shells in their where only a tiny bit is exposed, and 2 clogs will cover that up (in the end it looks like natural infestation....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I've never seen that myself but it definitely sounds like something that should be addressed.
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  • peregrinusperegrinus Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72445Members
    You can also put structures in a wall outside west exit of double res room in veil.
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  • HeatSurgeHeatSurge Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited October 2012
    I'm amazed at how many people think this is just fine and dandy, and some even seem to take some kind of pride in doing/knowing this.

    Well, whatever. I know what I'll be doing as marine com from now on. If the developers really want to see their game being played like this, I guess that's fine. Not something I enjoy seeing or doing, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
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  • BeelzebubBeelzebub Join Date: 2012-08-12 Member: 155506Members
    in all honesty though ive never had a problem biting the power node through whatever structure is placed there, and if you cant bite it then you cant weld it and a gorge will most likely be able to take it out anyway
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  • 1dominator11dominator1 Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Members
    edited October 2012
    Yes, I call this clever use of game assets. But I suppose some might consider not being able to disable an entire enemy base worth of stuff in 10 seconds to be OP.
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  • phoenixbbsphoenixbbs Join Date: 2003-02-10 Member: 13379Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Subnautica Playtester
    I think I saw some talk from the devs about making an area around power nodes non-buildable, but it's still in progress, let's see how it pans out
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  • CodeineCodeine Join Date: 2010-11-22 Member: 75155Members
    i think blocking vents etc with robo factories is smart play, but taking advantage of object clipping to fully conceal something important like the powernode is pretty cheap and should be addressed. Putting an armory next to it isnt so bad, but the fact that its inside the armory is what makes it a "cheat"
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  • DavilDavil Florida, USA Join Date: 2012-08-14 Member: 155602Members, Constellation
    Been seeing this for quite awhile now. The problem with it is later when gorges get bile it can't be repaired cause the armory is in the way.
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  • lolwowlolwow Join Date: 2012-10-06 Member: 161681Members
    haha oh wow, people justifying an exploit with "well I've used it too so it's ok"
    you are clipping models through each other, that's clearly not the intended use of them. it's a glitch and needs to be removed. might as well start classifying every glitch as a "feature"
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  • hamham Join Date: 2011-08-31 Member: 119370Members, Constellation
    please for the love of god take that video/this thread down. That is an exploit, they are aware of it and they will fix it.

    Why people feel the need to spread awareness of exploits so that we can all suffer for the next 2 weeks is beyond me.


    absolutely dumb

    Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. The devs know.

    Don't post this exploit on the forums for everyone to see and copy.

    Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
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