Alien - Marine tech discrepancy
Xarius
Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
<div class="IPBDescription">A serious problem that needs addressing</div>This has been mentioned in several threads already, but imo it really deserves its own thread. Myself and others tried asking about this in the Q and A session yesterday, but unfortunately the question wasn't picked up by Charlie and Hugh.
As it stands, marines have a <b>significant</b> advantage over aliens when it comes to tech progression. The problem is not so much that aliens need up to 3 TPs while marines only need 2, it's more about the fact that compared to aliens, marines have it way easier staying in the game at 1 TP. At 1 CC, marines can still get:
- Max upgrades (A3 and W3)
- ARCs (supposedly more viable in 222)
- GLs, FTs, Shotguns (i.e all weaponry barring the EXO's)
- Phase tech, beacon
- Sentries
Compare this to aliens, who at 1 hive receive:
- All lifeforms but only with T1 abilities (no blink, leap, spores, BB)
- 1 lifeform upgrade
- Only 1 type of hive related structures (shade/crag/shift)
- Whips
Now what this does is that it effectively makes the aliens unable to compete when they are:
- Stuck at 1 hive because the second one is being denied effectively (even if only for a short while)
- Back at 1 hive because the second has been destroyed. (Certainly vs jetpacks)
As a result, alien gameplay is incredibly linear, given how a second hive will make or break your team's chances (barring the odd chance of success with skulk rushes). This is not necessarily the case with marines, who even if they don't focus on getting a second CC at the start will generally be able to compete well into the mid game. (The proto lab is often really just something to break a stalemate rather than something they need to be able to stay in the game)
Now of course there are other factors in play that make 1-hive alien gameplay a true horror: the poor skulk performance (lack of proper skill based movement mechanic), the poor gorge spit, average lerk performance (no spores, slow without cele, ...) just to name a few. And while fixing some of these would no doubt make aliens better able to compete at 1 hive, because of the game's current design, aliens are BOUND to fall behind significantly sooner or later, as the mid-game dawns.(If they remain stuck at 1 hive or end up losing the second and can't immediately redrop)
So how do we address this issue you ask? Well, there's definitely several possible routes to take...
You could for instance make more of the marines tech (A3/W3) require a second CC, but that's not really going to address the shallow alien gameplay. It would fix the discrepancy somewhat by bringing both sides on more equal terms in terms of map control needed for tech progression, but only by making mairne gameplay too depend more heavily on a second base. A path that in my opinion is more likely to water gameplay down rather than add depth to it.
INSTEAD I propose we start by looking at the alien side. The best way to address this issue from just an alien perspective would be to give aliens a way to tech up further at 1 hive, BUT at a higher cost and/or resarch time (perhaps even a limited amount of abilities). This would make for some real trade-offs in alien game-play and actually enable aliens too to focus primarily on extractors rather than on a second hive, if they so desired. A second hive would still be very important (easier map control, more lifeform upgrades, cheaper and/or more T2 abilities, more commander structures) , probably somewhat more than for marines still (asymmetry FTW) but AT LEAST it would be a choice that could easily be postponed until a later point in the game if the khamm so desired, similar to how it is with marines. (=> more variety and depth to gameplay).
Supposedly you could even go with a mix of both, put A3 and W3 on the 2nd CC, or make them costlier at 1 CC and cheaper at 2 CC, while also giving aliens the ability to unlock some T2 abilities at 1 hive one way or another. There''s plenty of ways to fix this problem, though I think we can all acknowledge SOMETHING needs to be done about this. Making aliens more competitive at 1 hive, similar to marines, will not only enrich the strategic gameplay, it will also make them more resilient to setbacks by allowing more room for comebacks.
As it stands, marines have a <b>significant</b> advantage over aliens when it comes to tech progression. The problem is not so much that aliens need up to 3 TPs while marines only need 2, it's more about the fact that compared to aliens, marines have it way easier staying in the game at 1 TP. At 1 CC, marines can still get:
- Max upgrades (A3 and W3)
- ARCs (supposedly more viable in 222)
- GLs, FTs, Shotguns (i.e all weaponry barring the EXO's)
- Phase tech, beacon
- Sentries
Compare this to aliens, who at 1 hive receive:
- All lifeforms but only with T1 abilities (no blink, leap, spores, BB)
- 1 lifeform upgrade
- Only 1 type of hive related structures (shade/crag/shift)
- Whips
Now what this does is that it effectively makes the aliens unable to compete when they are:
- Stuck at 1 hive because the second one is being denied effectively (even if only for a short while)
- Back at 1 hive because the second has been destroyed. (Certainly vs jetpacks)
As a result, alien gameplay is incredibly linear, given how a second hive will make or break your team's chances (barring the odd chance of success with skulk rushes). This is not necessarily the case with marines, who even if they don't focus on getting a second CC at the start will generally be able to compete well into the mid game. (The proto lab is often really just something to break a stalemate rather than something they need to be able to stay in the game)
Now of course there are other factors in play that make 1-hive alien gameplay a true horror: the poor skulk performance (lack of proper skill based movement mechanic), the poor gorge spit, average lerk performance (no spores, slow without cele, ...) just to name a few. And while fixing some of these would no doubt make aliens better able to compete at 1 hive, because of the game's current design, aliens are BOUND to fall behind significantly sooner or later, as the mid-game dawns.(If they remain stuck at 1 hive or end up losing the second and can't immediately redrop)
So how do we address this issue you ask? Well, there's definitely several possible routes to take...
You could for instance make more of the marines tech (A3/W3) require a second CC, but that's not really going to address the shallow alien gameplay. It would fix the discrepancy somewhat by bringing both sides on more equal terms in terms of map control needed for tech progression, but only by making mairne gameplay too depend more heavily on a second base. A path that in my opinion is more likely to water gameplay down rather than add depth to it.
INSTEAD I propose we start by looking at the alien side. The best way to address this issue from just an alien perspective would be to give aliens a way to tech up further at 1 hive, BUT at a higher cost and/or resarch time (perhaps even a limited amount of abilities). This would make for some real trade-offs in alien game-play and actually enable aliens too to focus primarily on extractors rather than on a second hive, if they so desired. A second hive would still be very important (easier map control, more lifeform upgrades, cheaper and/or more T2 abilities, more commander structures) , probably somewhat more than for marines still (asymmetry FTW) but AT LEAST it would be a choice that could easily be postponed until a later point in the game if the khamm so desired, similar to how it is with marines. (=> more variety and depth to gameplay).
Supposedly you could even go with a mix of both, put A3 and W3 on the 2nd CC, or make them costlier at 1 CC and cheaper at 2 CC, while also giving aliens the ability to unlock some T2 abilities at 1 hive one way or another. There''s plenty of ways to fix this problem, though I think we can all acknowledge SOMETHING needs to be done about this. Making aliens more competitive at 1 hive, similar to marines, will not only enrich the strategic gameplay, it will also make them more resilient to setbacks by allowing more room for comebacks.
Comments
However, If this were to happen, I think it would be only fair to then move Onos and Fade up to 2 tech points only lifeforms, in order to mirror the marine's exo and jp tech. I know it sounds harsh, and we all hate symmetry, but in this case I really think it is necessary. The acquisition of the higher tier of technology for each team needs to be intuitive and consistent, but at the moment it really isn't.
I think the norm should be 2 tech points each team, while each fight over the last tech point. This allows all available technology and lifeforms to be present on the field, with only their potency being slightly reduced. Taking the third hive should be a game clincher, with the other time needing to do something pretty amazing to pull it back. This would also obviously be highly effective in quickly ending stalemates, as a team with "tech 1 potency" would be unlikely to hold out for very long against more advanced opponents.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->hate doing this but <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=120507" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=120507</a><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
In response to the second hive being oh so important, it may be worth considering that that may be a symptom of how unimportant the second comm chair is. If tech 2 guns wasn't available without it, there would be far more reason for the aliens to deny the marines their expansion, and far more reason for the marines to focus on getting it. This could result in the marines being less inclined to assault a building hive, and the aliens being more inclined to get upgrades in order to prevent the marines from expanding.
I also totally called the 2 hive Onos rush in that thread. Man I'm good.
The problem is, leap is really strong so allowing it to enter onto the field too quickly or too cheaply would unbalance the game badly. I would suggest that to move leap to 1hive would require both a boost in price and/or a significant boost in research time. Maybe it could simply be unavailable until the aliens have at least one other upgrade.
I think that a clever mechanic which might balance this as well as creating multiple effective alien strategies would be if a second hive decreased the cost of all tres tech/structures by 5res (subject to some number balancing). Thus there would be a tradeoff created between offensive power and economic or late game power. This type of tradeoff is present in all of the best rts games and creates a need for a tactical reaction from the other team.
I.e fix basic skulk movement mechanics and then leap won't be such a big game changer on 1 hive, though of course it should still be at a higher cost and/or research time compared to 2 hives.
As I remember the reason UW changed this was to force aliens to fight for map control.
Totally agree with ur analysis of the other problem; aliens are too weak at tier 1 and 2. On the other hand, marines have huge amount of extremely potent tech. Aliens haven't got anything that compares to phase gates, beacon, mines, etc. And UW won't let the skulks and gorges be effective like they were in ns1, so we're stuck.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is not so much that aliens need up to 3 TPs while marines only need 2, it's more about the fact that compared to aliens, marines have it way easier staying in the game at 1 TP<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
all your opinion. as usual you ppl are overcomplicating the solution to 1 tp turtling. ranged attacks would fix that without breaking the game completely as your "solution" would.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The best way to address this issue from just an alien perspective would be to give aliens a way to tech up further at 1 hive<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so your solution is to instead of allowing marines to turtle one tp, the devs should allow aliens to? really? aliens dont even need to leave the hive to build rt's!
youve been complaining about this "problem" for god knows how long, and in the end you just wanna shift the problem to the other team.
the only problem is the same problem there has always been. inexperienced alien coms, aliens that dont attack enough and give up ground to marines, and lack of alien early midgame lifeforms. making leap at 1 hive is balanced? really? so instead of leap coming at 3 minutes in, you want it INSTANTLY
AND
you want the aliens to have the ability to turtle 1 tp while still retaining the ability to drop rts all over the map without builders, with skulks that can cover ground easier than marines can, and completed hive drops at 2 minutes. so instead of the research res/time allotted for leap, coms can have go crag right away.
this is balanced?
riiiiiight
The solution to 1 tp turtling needs to apply <b>only </b>when the enemy is turtling with one tech point. Don't you think that a solution involving a multitude of ranged attacks being introduced would greatly affect situations other than the one that needs to be resolved? You think that your solution won't break the game? Laughable.
As I remember the reason UW changed this was to force aliens to fight for map control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and what a wasted time that was, as that result was painfully obvious
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->aliens are too weak at tier 1 and 2. On the other hand, marines have huge amount of extremely potent tech. Aliens haven't got anything that compares to phase gates, beacon, mines, etc. And UW won't let the skulks and gorges be effective like they were in ns1, so we're stuck.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
tier 1 is fine, please explain this "weakness" . its tier ONE. not 2-3.
aliens dont and shouldnt play the same. only reason they dont have something like pgs and beacon, etc is because the devs decided to take them out. i agree that shift should have the ability to move a player to nearest hive, i didnt agree on them taking it out. but these are not class imbalances. gorges may not be as effective as they were because most alien coms dont help gorges out from what ive seen. you have no idea what a shift does for gorges until you see an army of them heal spraying and spitting all over the place while holding a choke point. again, not as good as ns1, but in some ways better thanks to clogs. and in ns1 skulks werent affective past a certain point until they got focus or were just really good skulks. at 8-10 minutes or so youre getting fades and lerks and maybe an onos as your main attackers while the players who stay skulks are there for harassment and power node (its the same in ns2, fades dont attack power nodes as its a waste of their attack power). again, this would be fixed by a simple addition of focus. something that is proven works, not guesses based on opinion.
My opinion is the problem is aliens have no Advanced Armoury.
Marine tech is staggered and delayed by this, while aliens equivalent is a second hive. This is the clear imbalance. Marines can reach 2 hive tech with 1 CC + 1 AA.
So give the aliens something similar to the AA in how it delays advanced tech. It should slow leap/blink/bb down, while allowing aliens to remain competitive at 1 hive instead of simply rolling over.
On a note of symmetry, do not make this alien AA a structure - perhaps a series of structures that must be grown, or maybe have it based on maturity or some other new system. The net effect needs to just be a slowdown of tech.
it didnt break ns1, and at 3 hives it wouldnt break ns2 either. and what multitude. im talking 2 added attacks, ranged spores, and acid rockets at tier 3!. acid rockets would fix the problem with exos being a bit too powerful in their present state and i dont think acid rocket would be too powerful given the state of adrenaline either. so please, tell me how giving aliens TWO ranged attacks at 3 hives is game breaking over introducing crutch mechanics to aliens.
My opinion is the problem is aliens have no Advanced Armoury.
Marine tech is staggered and delayed by this, while aliens equivalent is a second hive. This is the clear imbalance. Marines can reach 2 hive tech with 1 CC + 1 AA.
So give the aliens something similar to the AA in how it delays advanced tech. It should slow leap/blink/bb down, while allowing aliens to remain competitive at 1 hive instead of simply rolling over.
On a note of symmetry, do not make this alien AA a structure - perhaps a series of structures that must be grown, or maybe have it based on maturity or some other new system. The net effect needs to just be a slowdown of tech.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL
you obviously dont even read posts so i suggest you do so before posting malformed opinions based on absolutely nothing.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so your solution is to instead of allowing marines to turtle one tp, the devs should allow aliens to? really? aliens dont even need to leave the hive to build rt's!
youve been complaining about this "problem" for god knows how long, and in the end you just wanna shift the problem to the other team.
the only problem is the same problem there has always been. inexperienced alien coms, aliens that dont attack enough and give up ground to marines, and lack of alien early midgame lifeforms. making leap at 1 hive is balanced?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't about making aliens able to turtle per se, it's about making them able to compete somewhat if:
- They fall back to 1 hive, currently that's almost always a GG, where as it is NOT for marines if they fall back to 1 CC
- They are denied the second hive at the start
That doesn't mean aliens should be able to win games at 1 hive lategame, it just means they need to be made more competitive for a longer period at 1 hive. If you had any reading comprehension whatsoever you would have noted that I in fact suggested a mix where marines need 2 CCs for A3 and W3 and aliens getting some way to tech up, only a limited amount of abilities, at 1 hive AND at a greater cost. What this does is, in effect, it brings aliens on par with marines while at the same time putting a little more emphasis on the second CC for marines. It's basically having both sides meet each other somewhere in the middle if you will.
To claim that this would somehow 'break the game' is a ridiculous statement backed by no facts whatosever. In fact, if anything it would benefit gameplay as there would now be: - More comeback potential for aliens, similar to marines
- A little less effective turtling by marines
- Less linear gameplay for aliens (Focussing RTs first over an instant second hive is a possibility)
- More varied gameplay for both sides overall.
2nd CCs and Hives would remain VERY important and just turtling vs an opponent with more than 1 base will NOT work for either side for long. (Though aliens will be a little more competitive than they are now, marines become slightly less competitive at just 1 CC, overall the two sides will be brought significantly closer to each other)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->eally? so instead of leap coming at 3 minutes in, you want it INSTANTLY<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nobody said this, quit being a tool, why don't you. The OP clearly stated that the research time AND cost would be higher for example, so in any case it would probably take even MORE than 3 minutes. That's the whole point, else of course it's not going to be balanced. Not to mention that I think hive build time is too fast in general, so they need to look at that as well.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you want the aliens to have the ability to turtle 1 tp while still retaining the ability to drop rts all over the map without builders, with skulks that can cover ground easier than marines can, and completed hive drops at 2 minutes. so instead of the research res/time allotted for leap, coms can have go crag right away.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't about making them able to turtle per se. If anything it's about making aliens less able to turtle and bringing aliens closer to marine competitiveness at 1 TP.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tier 1 is fine, please explain this "weakness"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you even play this game? Do you ever watch any of the tournaments? Alien T1 is NOT fine, that's the whole reason why you see a second hive being instadropped in almost every game. HINT, if you have a second hive with leap you are no longer playing on T1 VeneM. Put two equal teams against each other and have both sides not get a second CC or hive up until the mid game phase. See which team gets destroyed easily.
Kindly refrain from posting in this thread, it's clear you don't read posts and have nothing intelligent to say.
This isn't about making aliens able to turtle per se, it's about making them able to compete somewhat if:
- They fall back to 1 hive, currently that's almost always a GG, where as it is NOT for marines if they fall back to 1 CC
- They are denied the second hive at the start
That doesn't mean aliens should be able to win games at 1 hive lategame, it just means they need to be made more competitive for a longer period at 1 hive. If you had any reading comprehension whatsoever you would have noted that I in fact suggested a mix where marines need 2 CCs for A3 and W3 and aliens getting some way to tech up, only a limited amount of abilities, at 1 hive AND at a greater cost. What this does is, in effect, it brings aliens on par with marines while at the same time putting a little more emphasis on the second CC for marines. It's basically having both sides meet each other somewhere in the middle if you will.
To claim that this would somehow 'break the game' is a ridiculous statement backed by no facts whatosever. In fact, if anything it would benefit gameplay as there would now be: - More comeback potential for aliens, similar to marines
- A little less effective turtling by marines
- Less linear gameplay for aliens (Focussing RTs first over an instant second hive is a possibility)
- More varied gameplay for both sides overall.
2nd CCs and Hives would remain VERY important and just turtling vs an opponent with more than 1 base will NOT work for either side for long. (Though aliens will be a little more competitive than they are now, marines become slightly less competitive at just 1 CC, overall the two sides will be brought significantly closer to each other)
Nobody said this, quit being a tool, why don't you. The OP clearly stated that the research time AND cost would be higher for example, so in any case it would probably take even MORE than 3 minutes. That's the whole point, else of course it's not going to be balanced. Not to mention that I think hive build time is too fast in general, so they need to look at that as well.
This isn't about making them able to turtle per se. If anything it's about making aliens less able to turtle and bringing aliens closer to marine competitiveness at 1 TP.
Do you even play this game? Do you ever watch any of the tournaments? Alien T1 is NOT fine, that's the whole reason why you see a second hive being instadropped in almost every game. HINT, if you have a second hive with leap you are no longer playing on T1 VeneM. Put two equal teams against each other and have both sides not get a second CC or hive up until the mid game phase. See which team gets destroyed easily.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol theres really no point reading anything you have to say. yes lets call someone a troll and then hurl insults at them while contradicting ourselves!
done ggs
done ggs<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're not being very constructive yourself buddy, the only things you ever suggest are things that were in NS1, after the devs have said countless times that many of the things from NS1 simply are not going to make it into NS2. Everything else you say is flames. Again, not very constructive.
Why don't you try becoming part of the solution instead of just a hinderance and come up with an original idea? Something that might solve the OPs issues which indeed are there in the game. Then you'd actually be helping instead of attempting to derail the thread with your bickering.
I don't know how big of a rework is possible and how big we'd be talking here, but for me the starting point is lifeform design as a whole. I think the starting point should be that we have 5 lifeforms able to fill a role in their vanilla form. The tech is for expanding and extending the role further and unlocking new side roles.
Many of these almost must have techs not only limit the alien strategy, but also contradict the FPS first mantra quite badly.
Once the basic vanilla functionality is there, we're much better set for adjusting the tech tree further.
Why don't you try becoming part of the solution instead of just a hinderance and come up with an original idea? Something that might solve the OPs issues which indeed are there in the game. Then you'd actually be helping instead of attempting to derail the thread with your bickering.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
havent flamed anyone and ive suggested that exos be moved to 3 ccs, to make the robotics factory be a more mobile unit by powering nearby items like macs, arcs, turrets. buts the problem with some of you, if someone doesnt agree with you they are "flaming" or "trolling" as you obviously dont even read posts you just go off of what people who mimic what you think say and fail to form your own opinion on anything. and lol at "derail". yes, derail because i dont agree with you. welcome to forums? btw many of the elements added throughout the beta are straight from ns1 and werent in there when they made that statement so that isnt set in stone. maybe just maybe design decisions are based on what works (eventually).
In NS, there was never a requirement for marines to have anymore than 1 CC, ever. They got all their equipment from that single base. Yet the aliens managed to scale with the marines.
You are massively over-complicating this whole issue. Marines with 1 TP should be able to hold Aliens with 1 or 2 TP. The problem lies in the scaling of the alien team. Adjusting the mechanics of the Marines to fix the problems with Aliens balance is just plain absurd.
I still believe that a proper Skulk movement mechanic and a few tweaks to the Aliens, will bring the balance that is necessary. I certainly do not think the marines need adjusting, unless it is to get rid of the 2nd TP requirement for JP's and Exo's.
NS shows that all your ideas for balancing the game are barking up the wrong tree. Alien scalability is the issue, and needs to be fixed within the Alien team. To make changes to the Marines because the Aliens are broken is just a way to further break the game.
In NS, there was never a requirement for marines to have anymore than 1 CC, ever. They got all their equipment from that single base. Yet the aliens managed to scale with the marines.
You are massively over-complicating this whole issue. Marines with 1 TP should be able to hold Aliens with 1 or 2 TP. The problem lies in the scaling of the alien team. Adjusting the mechanics of the Marines to fix the problems with Aliens balance is just plain absurd.
I still believe that a proper Skulk movement mechanic and a few tweaks to the Aliens, will bring the balance that is necessary. I certainly do not think the marines need adjusting, unless it is to get rid of the 2nd TP requirement for JP's and Exo's.
NS shows that all your ideas for balancing the game are barking up the wrong tree. Alien scalability is the issue, and needs to be fixed within the Alien team. To make changes to the Marines because the Aliens are broken is just a way to further break the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
watch out youre "derailing"
lol anyway, thats exactly it. gj
By derailing I mean your caustic comments that draw more attention and cause more arguing than discussion. That, effectively, is derailing.
I think NS2 is a different game from NS1. It's on a more powerful engine that is capable of feats the HL1 engine will never be capable of. That said it is simply up to us to come up with truly original ideas for NS2. Not just 'what works'. I think the fade in NS2 is way more interesting to play than that of the fade in NS1. All his movement abilities synegize and I dont think he needs acid rocket. I also think more can be done for the skulk besides bhop to give it skill based movement mechanics. This would increase the skulk effectiveness at one hive and make just about everyone in this thread happy. Maybe give it a double jump, maybe give it an aerial lunge that can only be used to the left, right and backwards. I dunno, brainstorm.
These threads should be discussing solutions, not bickering about whether or not theres a problem.
In NS, there was never a requirement for marines to have anymore than 1 CC, ever. They got all their equipment from that single base. Yet the aliens managed to scale with the marines.
You are massively over-complicating this whole issue. Marines with 1 TP should be able to hold Aliens with 1 or 2 TP. The problem lies in the scaling of the alien team. Adjusting the mechanics of the Marines to fix the problems with Aliens balance is just plain absurd.
I still believe that a proper Skulk movement mechanic and a few tweaks to the Aliens, will bring the balance that is necessary. I certainly do not think the marines need adjusting, unless it is to get rid of the 2nd TP requirement for JP's and Exo's.
NS shows that all your ideas for balancing the game are barking up the wrong tree. Alien scalability is the issue, and needs to be fixed within the Alien team. To make changes to the Marines because the Aliens are broken is just a way to further break the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Be that as it may, this game still is not NS1. There are tons of tiny changes to the game (including technical things like bhop or just the way it feels to aim in each game) that make comparing NS1 to NS2 like comparing apples to oranges. Things like W3/A3 requiring two CCs shouldn't be dismissed as 'over-complicating the issue'. I agree that the fix could be as simple as tweaking the skulk's effectiveness without leap, but you have to admit that it could be a myriad of other things as well.
In NS, there was never a requirement for marines to have anymore than 1 CC, ever. They got all their equipment from that single base. Yet the aliens managed to scale with the marines.
You are massively over-complicating this whole issue. Marines with 1 TP should be able to hold Aliens with 1 or 2 TP. The problem lies in the scaling of the alien team. Adjusting the mechanics of the Marines to fix the problems with Aliens balance is just plain absurd.
I still believe that a proper Skulk movement mechanic and a few tweaks to the Aliens, will bring the balance that is necessary. I certainly do not think the marines need adjusting, unless it is to get rid of the 2nd TP requirement for JP's and Exo's.
NS shows that all your ideas for balancing the game are barking up the wrong tree. Alien scalability is the issue, and needs to be fixed within the Alien team. To make changes to the Marines because the Aliens are broken is just a way to further break the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure the NS1 model works anymore. Marines are far more offensive, and lack the defense to hold a single CC easily. Its no longer about holding out against the alien push until endgame tech rolls out.
If we are going to empower alien early game significantly to allow them to deploy hives effectively, we need to remove power nodes or heavily buff marine defense.
I certainly do agree marines could work fine with just 1 TP, but it's clear that UWE wants the whole '2 CC approach', so we may as well bring them more on par with aliens within that framework. Yes, we could argue against 2 TP JPS/EXOs and for alien scalability like in NS1, but at this point it's just a waste of time given how it's clearly not the direction UWE wants to take...
Instead, let's fix the problems within this approach, make 1 hive more competitive for a larger part into the mid-game at the very least.
And yet NS1 had *plenty* of turtling...?
Starting with paper balance fixes work best, its the difference between broadstrokes and fine detailing. An example would be to create an extreme of the situation: Watch what happens if you allow marines to have exos and jetpacks with only 1 TP, then compare the results to requiring 3 TPs.
You'll find that you wont even need ranged weapons (which are highly situational and can upset balance greatly as others noted) as Venem suggested.
Oh and for the record the "asymmetric card" can't be played here.. the game is intended to be asymmetric in playstyle but not in resource models or tech rules. This is why the alien commander was put in, its why map design and travel time has to be taken into account, its why there's such homogenization in these systems between the teams I.e. You need equal access to tech as the other team, and timings are very important, just like the <b>loss</b> of tech should be as well.
I've been vocal about this fundamental discrepancy since it was taken out in May of 2011. Which was before marines even had PGs to protect their forward bases..
Impossible without completely redoing how upgrades work. But it is clearly evident that UWE refuses to make such changes. That and/or they have zero idea what they're doing. I've made plenty of suggestions to allow aliens to scaling along with marines to put them on equal footing but the whiny marine masses pounce on you because they rather have easy mode than an actual game; that and the devs don't bother listening either. Arms lab type structure that removes carapace from the crag hive and replacing it with something else would have allowed aliens to pick any type of hive first go instead of this constant pigeon holding, but it was "too symmetrical", yet the devs feel aliens don't need hive teleport because of their supposedly "superior" mobility when marines run just as fast as skulks. Easy to see they have zero idea about their own game... you're wasting your time tying to fix this game because it's not going to happen.
On this note, the aliens would then need an equivalent to an AA. That is, an optional tech that allow advancement without taking 2 TPs.
IMO this is all that is neccecary to bridge the gap between alien and marine tech.
What this could be is anyone's guess, however i would assume it would be along the lines of an extra chamber that holds all the research for alien abilities (40 tres for an "evolution chamber, same as AA). When those researches become available is up for debate (1 or 2 hives), but some kind of evolution chamber would be the solution. For instance, in order to get the almighty leap would require at minimun 55 tres (30 for chamber and 25 for research) and ~4 min of research time. Timings would remain unaffected, as would cost, and aliens would become more viable at 1 hive. The trade off would be having a physical structure be responsible for alien abilities, much like how a structure is responsible for advanced guns.
anyway, thats just my opinion
IMO this is all that is neccecary to bridge the gap between alien and marine tech.
What this could be is anyone's guess, however i would assume it would be along the lines of an extra chamber that holds all the research for alien abilities (40 tres for an "evolution chamber, same as AA). When those researches become available is up for debate (1 or 2 hives), but some kind of evolution chamber would be the solution. For instance, in order to get the almighty leap would require at minimun 55 tres (30 for chamber and 25 for research) and ~4 min of research time. Timings would remain unaffected, as would cost, and aliens would become more viable at 1 hive. The trade off would be having a physical structure be responsible for alien abilities, much like how a structure is responsible for advanced guns.
anyway, thats just my opinion<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If an alien structure is to even be considered, then it needs to have MUCH more health than any of the upgrade structures do atm. Definitely do not need another thing for 1 rambo marine to be able to snipe.
Starting with paper balance fixes work best, its the difference between broadstrokes and fine detailing. An example would be to create an extreme of the situation: Watch what happens if you allow marines to have exos and jetpacks with only 1 TP, then compare the results to requiring 3 TPs.
You'll find that you wont even need ranged weapons (which are highly situational and can upset balance greatly as others noted) as Venem suggested.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so youre saying stretching marine lines even thinner by requiring a 3tp for a/w3 isnt balance upsetting?
agree or disagree to this then
late mid game, marines lose 3rd tp and a/w 3 while aliens still have full upgrades, along with redundancy through multiple upgrade drops. this is balance? this isnt balance upsetting? armor and weapons 2 against evolved alien teams might as well = f4.
on top of that how is giving a higher alien life form better end game abilities balance upsetting. its only 1 ability for fade. early mid game lerk needs the boost as well via range spore. but instead of that for some reason the base level skulk needs a boost? why? after 10 minutes are skulks the decided factor in alien victories? after 8 even.