Natural Selection 2 News Update - Beta Build 222 is Live!

123457

Comments

  • MisterNubsMisterNubs Join Date: 2012-03-01 Member: 147912Members
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1991824:date=Oct 15 2012, 01:21 PM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Oct 15 2012, 01:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991824"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just as important as the win ratios is the reason for the win. If you break down the alien wins, what percentage came from unsatisfying gimmicks like an early skulk rush or a hive 2 khamm-dropped onos?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    A question asked a hundred times over without a single answer.

    I'm sure if we take away the 2ish minute alien wins, early skulk rush, and 2 hive onos drops it is probable that alien win percentage would drop a decent ~10-15%.

    ---
    Aliens playing without such gimmicks are at a serious disadvantage. There are reasons why players are F4'ing constantly as Aliens. It's boring and unfun, and early skulk game play is abysmal. Alien gameplay has devolved into 2nd hive rush or the match is over unless the Marines are sitting on their lapels or have fallen asleep which is quite easy to do now against aliens. Not to mention overall the alien tech and gameplay has taken a serious beating. If it was a horse, it'd be glue by now. While "keep it simple stupid" is an ideal phrase to follow when designing mechanics, but when you butcher the mechanics to where you've raised the skill floor and dropped the skill ceiling to the point where players' abilities cannot grow, or there is simply no room to grow, the game becomes increasingly stale.

    Asymmetry for the sake of asymmetry, while ignoring it in some cases, has also been killing this game. Marine sprint that breaks early game balance, which also completely takes away aliens "fast and agile" advantage that they are suppose to have apparently (not to mention skulks are sluggishly slow funnily enough), while stating aliens cannot have hive teleport because marines have phase gates for the sake of asymmetry. A horrible thought process when it comes to balancing that has slowly been killing this game.

    I'm glad we're still looking at the useless win percentages as the holy grail when it comes to balance when there has been countless threads on why it is worthless to look at when determining the balance/state of the game. I guess it is easy to disregard the numerous threads and posts of people complaining that aliens are simply unfun and broken when the numbers are nearly 50/50. Even if somehow something magical happens within the next couple weeks to balance out marine/alien numbers, players are still going to avoid playing aliens because the game play is simply uninviting and boring. We're already seeing how much of a failure the alien kham has become. Players are no longer actually staying in the hive, they only jump in to do a few things before hopping back out and joining the game. It's no longer skulks vs marine, its skulks vs resource nodes. You're far better off avoiding marines since you'll simply die over and over. Even if you do manage to go positive as a skulk, marines has a laughably short respawn timer and sprint gets them right back to where they were making your efforts practically worthless. As the game progresses, skulks just become even more of a joke vs marines since there is still zero scaling. Outside of leap and blink, there is very little tech and even less actually worth using, and the tech you do use barely even benefits the player, so much that you can play just as well without it.

    So what are Aliens actually left with? Nothing. Aliens have to resort to stupid tactics that cheapen the gaming experience just to eke out a victory, which will quickly make the game boring. And instead of playing Aliens, players will start to stack marines which we're already seeing now. If by some chance Aliens play without using cheap tactics, its like playing at a severe disadvantage and the game grows increasingly frustrating.

    But at least the game is nearly 50/50.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens on the other hand are completely different. Your two Fade buddies can be blinking in and out of marines base, killing marines by the dozens, but as soon as you leap in as a skulk, and get one shotted by a shotgun, everything feels ###### and lame and boring. Its just the way the team is. You can be winning by a land slide but still be dying instantly.<b> Its just about playing the role you have to play.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I seriously hope this isn't the balancing system in place. This is asking for players to drop the game for good. I seriously hope I don't need to explain why this is bad for the game.
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    Just because those numbers are close to 50/50 does not mean the game is anywhere near balanced, id hope that we have actually come to realize that by now...
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its just the way the team is. You can be winning by a land slide but still be dying instantly. Its just about playing the role you have to play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I'm sorry but that is just ridiculous, it's basically telling players to 'deal with' the fact that skulks don't scale well into the lategame, even at 3 hives. With focus, proper xenocide and better movement mechanics overall, the skulk would not only become a lot more fun to play at any stage of the game, it also would be a lot more competitive at the later game stages where it currently just falls off entirely.

    Skulks being the 'cannonfodder' they currently are late in the game is not good for gameplay, nor do I believe it is intentional design, if anything it's just the result of lacking and or poorly implemented mechanics.
  • MisterNubsMisterNubs Join Date: 2012-03-01 Member: 147912Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1991881:date=Oct 15 2012, 03:07 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Oct 15 2012, 03:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991881"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just because those numbers are close to 50/50 does not mean the game is anywhere near balanced, id hope that we have actually come to realize that by now...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Considering the numbers have been brought up again, again, and again for 5 or 6 patches now. I'm going with a firm nope on that one.
  • {GGs} Chicken{GGs} Chicken Join Date: 2011-11-22 Member: 134663Members, NS2 Map Tester
    <!--quoteo(post=1991864:date=Oct 15 2012, 11:38 AM:name=Salraine_Chi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ Oct 15 2012, 11:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991864"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem for me is the devs seem to be taking all their advice from pro comp clan players who play with teamwork and proper comms, teamspeak/vent and who are very good players but the huge majority of players at launch and during the lifetime of the game will be casual public players. The game has to be balanced with both sets of players in mind not just one.

    600+ hours in and after 3 years of playing and I have struggled as Alien recently and so have many others so it cannot be a coincidence. Personally I have stopped playing for the moment as Alien play is not fun, just frustrating while Marine play is no challenge at all.
    Sal<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yeah um if the last 2+ years have shown anything, it's that all the reliable advice has been ignored, comp players or not.
  • MiniH0wieMiniH0wie Join Date: 2007-11-25 Member: 63013Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1991881:date=Oct 15 2012, 02:07 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Oct 15 2012, 02:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991881"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just because those numbers are close to 50/50 does not mean the game is anywhere near balanced, id hope that we have actually come to realize that by now...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Exactly,
    What are they using exactly to get these numbers (pub, comp, or dev game play). Does it take into account all the win/loss that occur in the first 2 mins because of a base rush or no one jumped in the comm. These poor quick games can really throw off the stats.
  • alienkingalienking Join Date: 2012-03-10 Member: 148577Members
    Good job with the optimization the game runs a lot smoother now :D
  • Onii-chanOnii-chan Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7164Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1991899:date=Oct 15 2012, 10:23 PM:name={GGs} Chicken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ({GGs} Chicken @ Oct 15 2012, 10:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991899"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah um if the last 2+ years have shown anything, it's that all the reliable advice has been ignored, comp players or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Amusing.

    If that were true, marines would still need MACs to build anything, Phase Gates would not exist, GL would still be a ###### rifle attachment. :)
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    And lerks would still have bilebomb, lmao
  • VolcanoVolcano Join Date: 2011-07-27 Member: 112496Members, Constellation
    how about that fade double swing
  • CodeineCodeine Join Date: 2010-11-22 Member: 75155Members
    Its no use letting UWE know the flaws in their game. Its just ignored. They're so stubborn the game will be dead before it even launches.
  • Onii-chanOnii-chan Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7164Members
    I guess the outcry for better marine movement and wider bite-cone were ignored as well, right?

    Trolls these days don't even try.
  • SixtyWattManSixtyWattMan Join Date: 2004-09-05 Member: 31404Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1992060:date=Oct 15 2012, 08:29 PM:name=Onii-chan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Onii-chan @ Oct 15 2012, 08:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992060"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I guess the outcry for better marine movement and wider bite-cone were ignored as well, right?

    Trolls these days don't even try.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Now marines pogo in place and get throw back 50 feet when you hit them as skulk.
  • Onii-chanOnii-chan Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7164Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1992063:date=Oct 16 2012, 04:31 AM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Oct 16 2012, 04:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992063"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->marines pogo in place<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Impossible, you can only have a proper jump when doing it on different surfaces, otherwise you barely get off the ground after 2 jumps.

    <!--quoteo(post=1992063:date=Oct 16 2012, 04:31 AM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Oct 16 2012, 04:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992063"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and get throw back 50 feet when you hit them as skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Indeed, a bug that has been noted and will hopefully be fixed next patch.
  • KhyronKhyron Join Date: 2012-02-02 Member: 143308Members
    Great Post Hugh, spot on.

    Why do people perceive the balance has changed more than it has? I suspect a key reason is because of changes to where battles are taking place, and who is on the defensive. I'm working from memory here, but I suspect the front line used to be much closer to extractors than harvesters. Aliens being forced to play defensively for large chunks of the game is a relatively new concept in NS2's history.

    The balance in terms of final game outcomes seems good. The activities leading to those wins and losses has changed. The question now is, are we happy with the activities making up the bulk of the game?

    For example, I think there is some concern in the community about the intensity of rushes, their viability and their risk/reward. It would be interesting to see a histogram of game durations. It would also be interesting to make some design objectives that encouraged a certain distribution on that histogram.
  • KasperleKasperle Join Date: 2004-09-29 Member: 31990Members
    edited October 2012
    cmon, dont complain so much. UWE is doing a pretty good job in balancing the game. The only problem is, that skulks need to be played completely different compared to marines in early game. If i would get 1$ for every skulk that doesnt use geometry to dodge in an engagement or doesnt ambushes, i would be ###### rich.
    I just guess that everybody would rather complain about skulks then marines ( aliens to weak ).
    skulks are difficult but manageable.
    Fades are awesome right now. I do love the new shadowstep in combination with jump, its a first hit guarantee.
    Onos kinda overpowered.

    Marine movement is amazing right now, at least much better then before.

    There is not a lot to complain about.
    This game is actually quiet enjoyable despite its failures.

    I dont like 2. hive onos eggs, i dont like all the music/sounds that make it impossible for me to hear the enemy. I dont like the current knockback when marines get hit by a skulk while they are jumping. I still dont like the current walljump even though its a huge improvement compared to the last build. I dont like the current flickering while alienvision is activated.

    But guess what, if u can adept, this build is far more enjoyable then the recent builds.
  • JektJekt Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    Blink should be first hive, or readd vertical movement to shadow step.
  • MiniH0wieMiniH0wie Join Date: 2007-11-25 Member: 63013Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1992066:date=Oct 15 2012, 08:35 PM:name=Onii-chan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Onii-chan @ Oct 15 2012, 08:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992066"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Impossible, you can only have a proper jump when doing it on different surfaces, otherwise you barely get off the ground after 2 jumps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Well if you keep jumping from the floor to a skulk and back (different surfaces), you can bounce all over the place. Been watching it happen for the past few days.
  • TyphonTyphon Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 1899Members
    The marine no-jump-slowdown-on-different-surfaces thing works by jumping on skulks backs? That has got to be an oversight, right?
  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1991870:date=Oct 15 2012, 08:43 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Oct 15 2012, 08:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991870"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I seriously hope this isn't the balancing system in place. This is asking for players to drop the game for good. I seriously hope I don't need to explain why this is bad for the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You do get players who refuse to ever be placed in an uneven playing field. Players who would not tolerate being a skulk vs an exo. These players only really care about aiming and shooting, not teamwork, so they typically will leave a game like NS2. They may go to a game like BF3, but even then they may not accept being a jeep or a soldier against a tank. That's when they leave that and go to COD. Complete symmetry, completely predictable playing field, complete mundanity.

    There's no doubt that, as far as balance goes, that is the ultimate solution.
  • MisterNubsMisterNubs Join Date: 2012-03-01 Member: 147912Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1992126:date=Oct 16 2012, 12:47 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 16 2012, 12:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992126"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You do get players who refuse to ever be placed in an uneven playing field. Players who would not tolerate being a skulk vs an exo. These players only really care about aiming and shooting, not teamwork, so they typically will leave a game like NS2. They may go to a game like BF3, but even then they may not accept being a jeep or a soldier against a tank. That's when they leave that and go to COD. Complete symmetry, completely predictable playing field, complete mundanity.

    There's no doubt that, as far as balance goes, that is the ultimate solution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Was there a point somewhere in there or were you just throwing a bunch of stuff together hoping to make an argument out of it?

    If the skulk is utter ###### at the start of the game and continues to become even ###### as the game continues because of lack of scaling, and players that are stuck being skulks due to lack of p.res (dying as a fade or onos), no one is going to subject themselves to piss poor gameplay. Unless they're a masochist.

    While on the flip side, vanilla marines continue to scale throughout the game and players are not left feeling utterly worthless to the team being a vanilla marine.
  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1992137:date=Oct 16 2012, 07:30 AM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Oct 16 2012, 07:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992137"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Was there a point somewhere in there or were you just throwing a bunch of stuff together hoping to make an argument out of it?

    If the skulk is utter ###### at the start of the game and continues to become even ###### as the game continues because of lack of scaling, and players that are stuck being skulks due to lack of p.res (dying as a fade or onos), no one is going to subject themselves to piss poor gameplay. Unless they're a masochist.

    While on the flip side, vanilla marines continue to scale throughout the game and players are not left feeling utterly worthless to the team being a vanilla marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    So whats your solution? Buff the skulk to the point where he can 1v1 an exo reliably? Because unless you do that, the "problem" you outlined will never be resolved.
  • MisterNubsMisterNubs Join Date: 2012-03-01 Member: 147912Members
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1992139:date=Oct 16 2012, 01:36 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 16 2012, 01:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992139"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So whats your solution? Buff the skulk to the point where he can 1v1 an exo reliably? Because unless you do that, the "problem" you outlined will never be resolved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Give aliens scaling?

    *gasp*

    Just because someone is bad and can't handle a lone skulk in an exo suit isn't a good enough reason hold game play back.
  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
    edited October 2012
    Scale to what? Are you honestly suggesting that a free skulk be as effective as a 75 res Onos? If a skulk can take on an exo, then what need is there for an Onos? If a skulk can't take on an exo, then you are putting someone in a position where they die instantly.

    Your choice.

    Sometimes it just needs to be accepted that the food chain is not flat in this game. People who can't accept that really shouldn't be playing anything other than CO.
  • MisterNubsMisterNubs Join Date: 2012-03-01 Member: 147912Members
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1992143:date=Oct 16 2012, 01:48 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 16 2012, 01:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992143"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Scale to what? Are you honestly suggesting that a free skulk be as effective as a 75 res Onos? If a skulk can take on an exo, then what need is there for an Onos? If a skulk can't take on an exo, then you are putting someone in a position where they die instantly.

    Your choice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Cute. These words you're putting in my mouth.

    Skulks to scale to vanilla marines. Currently upgrades simply do not. As the game progresses, skulks take longer to kill a vanilla marine while it takes less time for a vanilla marine to kill a skulk. Leading to huge disparities were currently seeing in the beta.

    If 1v1 skulks are too much to handle as an exo (which really falls down to lrn2play), all it takes is a few number tweaks on the exo.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sometimes it just needs to be accepted that the food chain is not flat in this game. People who can't accept that really shouldn't be playing anything other than CO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Or maybe when people start realizing how horrible of a joke the balance in this game is and how piss poor the alien gameplay too, they'll simply drop the game like a bad habit and play something that's actually, get this.... fun.
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members
    Here is UWE unofficial plan to balance the game:

    <b>Main goal:</b> Make the skulk vs. marine balanced (probability marine die ~ 50%) across skill level and tech level.

    <b>Methods:</b> Two test groups will be formed, one composed of competitive players and one of relatively new players. The groups will join a combat server and play skulk vs. marine for hours.

    In a first phase they will play vanilla lifeforms, then one upgrade will be allowed on each side, then two, then three, then four and so one. Relevant variables and mechanics will be tuned until the skulk vs. marine combat is balanced in all conditions.
  • Hunter.S.T.Hunter.S.T. Join Date: 2012-05-26 Member: 152596Members
    My thoughts on feedback in general.
    <!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->
    A camel, is a horse designed by committee. <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->

    This is to say, that often, one gets a better result by adhereing to one persons vision, than by taking into account everyones opinions.

    I think that is the case here, its our "job" to give our honest feedback on what needs to be changed, and try to provide evidence about why its a great idea.

    Drifter rushes and using drifter attacks <b>was</b> a problem, i dont think it is anymore since drifters cant stuck in marines, and also because of how easy it is to get 20 drifters stuck in the ceiling (lol bug).

    Now the only major balance issue as far as i can see it, is that the 2 hive tres onos is boring! the match between inversion and nexzil was awesome to watch. I hope that charlie saw what happened, and that it influences his vision.

    But, at this stage, apart from the plethora of annoying bugs, this is really the only "balance" change that i think <b>needs</b> to be made. And i am happy to trust in flayras vision, even if he doent make this change, or another change to create the same effect.

    Why would i rather put trust in flayras vision? Basically because, ive seen what the rest of the committiee has to say, and i dont want this horse to wind up drooling with 2 humps on its back.

    Rather than talk balance, id rather talk bugs, im gonna make my own fana style list of the bugs that really need to be fixed to make commanding easier and more enjoyable :D hopefully ill hear that they are working on every last one.
  • VeNeMVeNeM Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 928Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1992015:date=Oct 15 2012, 06:22 PM:name=Onii-chan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Onii-chan @ Oct 15 2012, 06:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992015"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Amusing.

    If that were true, marines would still need MACs to build anything, Phase Gates would not exist, GL would still be a ###### rifle attachment. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    yea, and before any of the previous idea were implemented it was painfully obvious that it wouldnt work, and of course when it didnt we had to suffer through numerous builds until they got "it"

    flamethrowers that instakilled almost everything, multiple coms, gorges that did absolutely nothing since bile bomb just had to be moved from them to lerks and then back again what a waste of time, gameplay that involved guarding macs all game while they do pretty much everything, infinite sprint, celerity blur, lerk spore cropdusting mechanic
  • TyphonTyphon Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 1899Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1992139:date=Oct 16 2012, 01:36 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 16 2012, 01:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992139"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So whats your solution? Buff the skulk to the point where he can 1v1 an exo reliably? Because unless you do that, the "problem" you outlined will never be resolved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The only person suggesting that is you. Nice strawman.

    All we're asking is that a freshly spawned marine be equivalent to a freshly spawned skulk assuming the two teams are close in terms of map control and research investment. That's all.
  • PheusPheus Join Date: 2003-01-30 Member: 12924Members
    It feels like you die as fade/lerk/onos you will have literally nothing to offer for the rest of the game other than eating res nodes. not fun.
Sign In or Register to comment.