What about an incendiary grenade? Have it cost 10 res and replace the welder/axe. That way there's a clear trade-off. It would be useful for clearing spores/infestation/vents/harassment but wouldn't really be a killing tool, more of a temporary area denial
I think that grenades are a good idea. That way you don't need a Grenade Launcher or else you're just screwed completely mid to late game. (Gorges bile bombing from the vents, woo)
<!--quoteo(post=2014984:date=Nov 7 2012, 09:31 PM:name=hate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hate @ Nov 7 2012, 09:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014984"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about an incendiary grenade? Have it cost 10 res and replace the welder/axe. That way there's a clear trade-off. It would be useful for clearing spores/infestation/vents/harassment but wouldn't really be a killing tool, more of a temporary area denial<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Flamethrowers are infestation counters, and GLs are the main area of denial weapon. But what if we maybe tried something like this? " <b>Incinerator Grenade (Requires advanced armory research).</b> An attempt to integrate fire into anti-Kharaa efforts has produced a new man-portable defense weapon. This stick grenade becomes a blazing orb of fire and napalm when thrown, and will stick to the first thing it comes in contact with. It can either be thrown on the ground to create a small ward, or thrown right on enemies to burn them over and over.
Stats: Cost-20 res Weapon Slot- 3 Amount- 2 per purchase Damage- 75/Fire total over 4 seconds (burned enemies will suffer weakness like the flamethrower) Duration- 4s (during this time, the grenade is a fireball that cause damage to anything in it's radius) Burn Radius- 1/2 meter (about the width of a standing gorge by my guess.) Rate of fire- 1.5s Delay- 5s
If thrown on the ground, this fireball will stick there and damage anything that crosses over it, although it's small radius makes it a failure at area of denial, and several would be required to effectively block an area. It can be thrown on vents to make their use much less appealing to Kharaa for a short while. If thrown on an enemy though, it will stick to them, and the fire will follow them wherever they go, dealing them the full 75 damage and also hurting anyone they cross. The damage isn't spectacular (at least not compared to the raw power of the GL) but they are easy to throw, and you can throw both your grenades in just a couple of seconds to deal 150 damage to an alien (if you can hit them with both).
On the downside, they aren't too useful when just one is placed on the ground. They can be avoided by quick aliens, and using them up close will burn yourself too. What's more, a steep price for just two grenades makes repeated use an unappealing prospect. Careful aim and planning is required to make the most of this powerful support weapon, or you may just end up wasting precious resources. "
I think that would be the better use of a fire grenade if they decided to use one in this game.
Yeah hand grenades would help in having a viable option for clearing gorges out of vents (should they go for early bile bomb) without being forced to go for early grenade launcher. Would be good for clearing out skulks grouping up for ambushes too.
Skulks already dies from 1-3 normal rifle rounds so what is the point of grenades? If they put in a hand grenade then it will need to be stronger than 1-3 bullets to be effective and then it will kill a swarm of skulks relly easy, And Hand grenades would be to good to kill alien eggs. Alien eggs are already really stupid easy to get rid off.. By throwing one grenade at each egg will wipe them out really fast..
Jeehao, the LMG does 10 normal damage per shot, and fires at 10 rounds a second. The skulks has 70 hp and 10 armor (which is worth x2 against Normal damage) so it takes 9 perfectly placed shots to kill a skulk. Factor in the accuracy cone, imperfect aiming and a moving skulk, and people often spend half or even their entire clip to kill a skulk.
As for hand grenades, they weren't OP in NS1 whatsoever! They were when they were first implemented but were very well balanced afterward:
(1) I believe the damage was lowered to 80. So a skulk getting hit with the full blast wouldn't be killed unless the marines had damage 2. If the skulk had carapace, or was in the 'less damage' radius, he'd survive.
(2) they didn't do x2 damage against structures, that was removed as well (I'm almost certain). It's a lot faster to shoot 8 lmg bullets than to throw a grenade, so they weren't very effective for this either, except for the minimal splash damage.
All in all, I found Hand Grenades really rounded out Marine's basic arsenal. Making them a somewhat cheap early upgrade (following NS2 prices, I'd say 15 on the armory), giving one to each marine on spawn, and letting them refill that one grenade at an armory, would be pretty balanced. Or go full NS1 style and give them two on spawn, which can never be refilled.
Follow this kind of approach, and marines now have fun new toys that really are only used for flushing out skulks that they already know are around a corner / in a vent. Plus, the marine game feels like too much of a rush for proto right now. An additional 15 res sunk on a nearly required upgrade (in NS1, the majority of comms got it immediately, almost every game) would help slow that down just a tad and further reinforce all-in rushes down tech paths.
So lets say 85dmg ? I'm sure we can balance this. Most of you guys responding are just saying it's OP in NS 1... This is NS 2 and we're trying to suggest fair equipment that the community would prefer.
I like how the current weapons array forces a marine team to balance their loadout. If you need to counter indirect fire from Gorges, then you need to rush the gorge position or you need GLs, which have drawbacks.
Therein lies my issue: I don't see any significant drawbacks to the weapon systems proposed. I don't believe that "replaces melee" is an effective drawback. "Replaces Pistol", on the other hand, is significant enough to make me intrigued.
The stun grenade concept is nice. A damaging grenade is redundant. An incendiary grenade seems redundant as well.
(Quick comment on the "Pistols are redundant then too!" argument. Yes they are. That's why you don't feel awkward buying a replacement for your base rifle, because you have a redundant backup weapon for free.)
I think the question that needs to be asked here is "Why?"
Why do Marines need hand grenades? "It was in NS1," is not a satisfactory answer here, by the way. What purpose would they serve? Does another weapon currently serve that same purpose? How would they be distinguishable from the current line of weapons? Why would they be worth purchasing? Why wouldn't everyone purchase them every time?
Once the proponents of this weapon system can come to some form of consensus on these basic questions, then you can start making a mod and testing and balancing the weapon before presenting it to the devs yourself. I mean, Mature Whips knock back Grenades because someone thought it would be cool and showed it to the devs, so take the spark tools and make a proof of concept mod. Show us all with actions, rather than empty and (at times in this thread) vitriolic words.
Good luck on your project, Hand Grenade proponents.
+1, we need a way to clear out vents that is available sooner then a damn jetpack. GLs are nice and all, but I actually enjoy being able to kill the enemy when it attacks me, which GLs can't do. At all. Make them deal less damage to structures and like 120 damage in a decent splash to aliens, this way if some pesky alien is hiding in a vent and just poking at structures you have a way to deal with it.
ahh handgrenades - you love them or you hate them :-) I actually consider them to be a very vital item in the personal arsenal. they're good for clearing vents or damaging / taking down small structures from a certain distance.
In some situations I'd rather throw a grenade at a Skulk which is attacking an extractor than shooting it but this is indeed a topic which depends on different preferences. Some people find them useful some people find them as much useless as a welder in combat. I personally would really like to see handgrenades back in NS2
<!--quoteo(post=2034555:date=Nov 26 2012, 10:58 AM:name=SeeVee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SeeVee @ Nov 26 2012, 10:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034555"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>I'd rather have a couple nades than the GL. </b> Maybe have both in the game and allow for server admin to activate or deactivate them as needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I bolded the bit that people are overlooking, with a HG available no-one will buy a GL and you simply have the underslung GL of the mid beta days with limited ammo. The problem it creates is that there is no shortcoming now for having the ability to shoot round corners or into vents but still have your lethal ranged MG.
HG's are not needed, most bloody vents are marine friendly even before JP's, worst case you need a budy to boost you though most you can access yourself.
To all those saying HG's where in NS1 well devour, focus, hive teleporting acid rockets etc were in NS1 too...
<!--quoteo(post=2055660:date=Jan 3 2013, 08:12 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 3 2013, 08:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2055660"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I bolded the bit that people are overlooking, with a HG available no-one will buy a GL and you simply have the underslung GL of the mid beta days with limited ammo. The problem it creates is that there is no shortcoming now for having the ability to shoot round corners or into vents but still have your lethal ranged MG.
HG's are not needed, most bloody vents are marine friendly even before JP's, worst case you need a budy to boost you though most you can access yourself.
To all those saying HG's where in NS1 well devour, focus, hive teleporting acid rockets etc were in NS1 too...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just set it up like the following: People would still buy the GL because HG's are not rechargeable like weapon ammo and you only had one or two on you. The damage of the HG could be less than the GL and now they are different enough from each other to be complimentary to the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2013868:date=Nov 7 2012, 05:57 AM:name=Squishpoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squishpoke @ Nov 7 2012, 05:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013868"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know about you, but I'd think having hand grenades AND a shotgun or MG would be too good to pass up. I'd never use GL again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One/two single low damage hand grenade that can't be resupplied until you die - "I'd never use GL again"
Okay...
I think a hand-grenades comeback would be good. It would certainly help flush troll-gorges out of nanogrid vent without forcing early GL research.
EDIT: oops, reread the OP, and is suggesting these hand grenades should be purchasable for 10 res. Now there's even more reason to get a GL over it - it would be expensive as ######. Reread again - damage is WAY too much. That could almost kill a fade in one shot.
Would prefer HG's to be implemented like in ns1 - less powerful, costs nothing (except research), can't be resupplied.
Comments
Flamethrowers are infestation counters, and GLs are the main area of denial weapon. But what if we maybe tried something like this?
"
<b>Incinerator Grenade (Requires advanced armory research).</b> An attempt to integrate fire into anti-Kharaa efforts has produced a new man-portable defense weapon. This stick grenade becomes a blazing orb of fire and napalm when thrown, and will stick to the first thing it comes in contact with. It can either be thrown on the ground to create a small ward, or thrown right on enemies to burn them over and over.
Stats:
Cost-20 res
Weapon Slot- 3
Amount- 2 per purchase
Damage- 75/Fire total over 4 seconds (burned enemies will suffer weakness like the flamethrower)
Duration- 4s (during this time, the grenade is a fireball that cause damage to anything in it's radius)
Burn Radius- 1/2 meter (about the width of a standing gorge by my guess.)
Rate of fire- 1.5s
Delay- 5s
If thrown on the ground, this fireball will stick there and damage anything that crosses over it, although it's small radius makes it a failure at area of denial, and several would be required to effectively block an area. It can be thrown on vents to make their use much less appealing to Kharaa for a short while. If thrown on an enemy though, it will stick to them, and the fire will follow them wherever they go, dealing them the full 75 damage and also hurting anyone they cross. The damage isn't spectacular (at least not compared to the raw power of the GL) but they are easy to throw, and you can throw both your grenades in just a couple of seconds to deal 150 damage to an alien (if you can hit them with both).
On the downside, they aren't too useful when just one is placed on the ground. They can be avoided by quick aliens, and using them up close will burn yourself too. What's more, a steep price for just two grenades makes repeated use an unappealing prospect. Careful aim and planning is required to make the most of this powerful support weapon, or you may just end up wasting precious resources.
"
I think that would be the better use of a fire grenade if they decided to use one in this game.
If they put in a hand grenade then it will need to be stronger than 1-3 bullets to be effective and then it will kill a swarm of skulks relly easy,
And Hand grenades would be to good to kill alien eggs. Alien eggs are already really stupid easy to get rid off..
By throwing one grenade at each egg will wipe them out really fast..
(1) I believe the damage was lowered to 80. So a skulk getting hit with the full blast wouldn't be killed unless the marines had damage 2. If the skulk had carapace, or was in the 'less damage' radius, he'd survive.
(2) they didn't do x2 damage against structures, that was removed as well (I'm almost certain). It's a lot faster to shoot 8 lmg bullets than to throw a grenade, so they weren't very effective for this either, except for the minimal splash damage.
All in all, I found Hand Grenades really rounded out Marine's basic arsenal. Making them a somewhat cheap early upgrade (following NS2 prices, I'd say 15 on the armory), giving one to each marine on spawn, and letting them refill that one grenade at an armory, would be pretty balanced. Or go full NS1 style and give them two on spawn, which can never be refilled.
Follow this kind of approach, and marines now have fun new toys that really are only used for flushing out skulks that they already know are around a corner / in a vent. Plus, the marine game feels like too much of a rush for proto right now. An additional 15 res sunk on a nearly required upgrade (in NS1, the majority of comms got it immediately, almost every game) would help slow that down just a tad and further reinforce all-in rushes down tech paths.
I like how the current weapons array forces a marine team to balance their loadout. If you need to counter indirect fire from Gorges, then you need to rush the gorge position or you need GLs, which have drawbacks.
Therein lies my issue: I don't see any significant drawbacks to the weapon systems proposed. I don't believe that "replaces melee" is an effective drawback. "Replaces Pistol", on the other hand, is significant enough to make me intrigued.
The stun grenade concept is nice. A damaging grenade is redundant. An incendiary grenade seems redundant as well.
(Quick comment on the "Pistols are redundant then too!" argument. Yes they are. That's why you don't feel awkward buying a replacement for your base rifle, because you have a redundant backup weapon for free.)
I think the question that needs to be asked here is "Why?"
Why do Marines need hand grenades? "It was in NS1," is not a satisfactory answer here, by the way.
What purpose would they serve?
Does another weapon currently serve that same purpose?
How would they be distinguishable from the current line of weapons?
Why would they be worth purchasing?
Why wouldn't everyone purchase them every time?
Once the proponents of this weapon system can come to some form of consensus on these basic questions, then you can start making a mod and testing and balancing the weapon before presenting it to the devs yourself. I mean, Mature Whips knock back Grenades because someone thought it would be cool and showed it to the devs, so take the spark tools and make a proof of concept mod. Show us all with actions, rather than empty and (at times in this thread) vitriolic words.
Good luck on your project, Hand Grenade proponents.
Maybe have both in the game and allow for server admin to activate or deactivate them as needed.
I actually consider them to be a very vital item in the personal arsenal.
they're good for clearing vents or damaging / taking down small structures from a certain distance.
In some situations I'd rather throw a grenade at a Skulk which is attacking an extractor than shooting it but this is indeed a topic which depends on different preferences.
Some people find them useful some people find them as much useless as a welder in combat.
I personally would really like to see handgrenades back in NS2
Maybe have both in the game and allow for server admin to activate or deactivate them as needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I bolded the bit that people are overlooking, with a HG available no-one will buy a GL and you simply have the underslung GL of the mid beta days with limited ammo.
The problem it creates is that there is no shortcoming now for having the ability to shoot round corners or into vents but still have your lethal ranged MG.
HG's are not needed, most bloody vents are marine friendly even before JP's, worst case you need a budy to boost you though most you can access yourself.
To all those saying HG's where in NS1 well devour, focus, hive teleporting acid rockets etc were in NS1 too...
Hand grenades overlaps with GL. Just like LMG overlaps with HMG.
The problem it creates is that there is no shortcoming now for having the ability to shoot round corners or into vents but still have your lethal ranged MG.
HG's are not needed, most bloody vents are marine friendly even before JP's, worst case you need a budy to boost you though most you can access yourself.
To all those saying HG's where in NS1 well devour, focus, hive teleporting acid rockets etc were in NS1 too...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just set it up like the following: People would still buy the GL because HG's are not rechargeable like weapon ammo and you only had one or two on you. The damage of the HG could be less than the GL and now they are different enough from each other to be complimentary to the game.
One/two single low damage hand grenade that can't be resupplied until you die - "I'd never use GL again"
Okay...
I think a hand-grenades comeback would be good. It would certainly help flush troll-gorges out of nanogrid vent without forcing early GL research.
EDIT: oops, reread the OP, and is suggesting these hand grenades should be purchasable for 10 res. Now there's even more reason to get a GL over it - it would be expensive as ######. Reread again - damage is WAY too much. That could almost kill a fade in one shot.
Would prefer HG's to be implemented like in ns1 - less powerful, costs nothing (except research), can't be resupplied.