<!--quoteo(post=2013885:date=Nov 7 2012, 09:53 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Nov 7 2012, 09:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013885"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with you that the biggest problem is the timing, but I also think the Onos is too strong even in the late game. Consider that the marines in NS1 had more firepower (HMG) than the marines currently do in NS2, yet the Onos was still balanced with almost 1000 less effective HP. That's not to say that the values need to be similar, or that they should be, but the difference fits well with what I've been seeing ingame; that the alien team is nigh-unbeatable once they obtain critical Onos mass (30-50% of the team as Onos).
Personally I think the problem needs to be solved through scaling, rather than hard caps such as locking it to the third hive, and I feel the same applies to the two hive limitation as well. An unlocked tech tree makes for much more interesting choices, but of course it needs scaling to be balanced. I have solid idea, at least I think it is solid, on how to do just that, and I will be writing a monster post on it in the not-to-distant future.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Onos too strong late game? How many games have you played. It's far harder for Aliens to finish off Marines who hold a single base then it is vice versa. Grenade launcher spam plus armouries and macs can keep their base going for quite a while. If you charge in with an Onos you'll be dead in around 15 seconds. At a minimum it requires a minimum of 3 Onos plus the rest of the team against a competent Marine team.
A fast Onos is the best counter to the usual Marine turtling of Phase gates, sentries and armories. Skulks don't stand a chance if the Aliens let the Marines get their weapon upgrades done. The earlier they charge the better it is for Aliens which is why a fast Onos is good. Plus Alien Hives and upgrade buildings are incredibly weak vs a vis marines and once destroyed everything has to be re-researched costing vital resources.
I've suggested previously that commander egg drops should use hive population like drifters do to prevent the spam or even make it possible to drop a single onos off of a single hive to break reverse res lock stalemates when aliens cannot secure a second hive to advance further
This along with the suggestion to allow gorge to use pres to drop eggs or drop advanced lifeform eggs for other players like marines can drop a grenade launcher on the ground also looks like it could be good for the metagame
This would also pull focus away from shift hive being the only counter against egglock and might allow shift to gain new abilities
<!--quoteo(post=2013763:date=Nov 7 2012, 02:43 AM:name=Blindga)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blindga @ Nov 7 2012, 02:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have yet to play a game in which an onos was killed late game.
These things are unstoppable late game, and when you have 2-3 of them it's just stupidly powerful. An early onos is a risky move, but no nearly as much to compensate for the amount of damage they can do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats because most rines are still noobs. In beta u had to be really careful as onos or ur dead. Exo is the anti onos defense (defense because exo is slow) and jetpack shotgun rines can hunt down a hurt onos. On top u can use the mac emp to take the energy away from the onos.. then attack is rly slow and it cant sprint away. U can also just place a big structure in a doorway and block the onos attack or escape (just place and build it 1 sec... gives enough time to kill the onos before the onos kills the not fully build sturcture).
<!--quoteo(post=2013885:date=Nov 7 2012, 01:23 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Nov 7 2012, 01:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013885"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with you that the biggest problem is the timing, but I also think the Onos is too strong even in the late game. Consider that the marines in NS1 had more firepower (HMG) than the marines currently do in NS2, yet the Onos was still balanced with almost 1000 less effective HP. That's not to say that the values need to be similar, or that they should be, but the difference fits well with what I've been seeing ingame; that the alien team is nigh-unbeatable once they obtain critical Onos mass (30-50% of the team as Onos).
Personally I think the problem needs to be solved through scaling, rather than hard caps such as locking it to the third hive, and I feel the same applies to the two hive limitation as well. An unlocked tech tree makes for much more interesting choices, but of course it needs scaling to be balanced. I have solid idea, at least I think it is solid, on how to do just that, and I will be writing a monster post on it in the not-to-distant future.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the onos needs more ways to fail. Or in other words a skill full mechanic. Bone shield would be the best for it. You can't balance the onos purely over health. You need a mechanic that needs skill, so you can beat it. Not just X marines to make enough damage.
At the early onos drop. The easiest way to counter this, is that a player needs to evolve into a life form first, before the com can buy them with t-res. This balances the timings again.
People keep saying that Exos are the perfect counter to the Onos. Have you guys not actually ever played Onos? In a straight up 1 on 1 scenario, the Onos wins always. When I play Onos, I even manage to take down Exos supported by 2-4 welders. Exos seem pathetically weak next to the Onos.
<!--quoteo(post=2014140:date=Nov 7 2012, 05:01 PM:name=m3lior)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (m3lior @ Nov 7 2012, 05:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014140"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People keep saying that Exos are the perfect counter to the Onos. Have you guys not actually ever played Onos? In a straight up 1 on 1 scenario, the Onos wins always. When I play Onos, I even manage to take down Exos supported by 2-4 welders. Exos seem pathetically weak next to the Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've taken down a good few Onos as dual minigun Exo. I had a few marines with me as well, and it has been close, but it almost almost works for me.
I think the Onos is fine and balanced as it is right now. Some of you are saying they are hard to take down late game? What? It's harder to take one down with more tech? The alien abilities are good, but none of them will help (much) against a bunch of marines flying around spamming bullets into your massive arse.
<!--quoteo(post=2013791:date=Nov 6 2012, 11:05 PM:name=Blindga)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blindga @ Nov 6 2012, 11:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013791"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fine then, enlighten me if you will, because apparently I don't understand. Let's try a scenario and maybe you can help me.
What is the best way to stop an Onos rush who is attacking my base? Let's say I'm comming and I have six guys in the terminal on the docking level late game, and a pair of Onos outside in the platform waiting to rush in. I have all the weapons and equipment upgrades, a proto lab with a basic exo unlocked, a robotics lab with sentries, and an observatory. Some sloppy fighting has let them push through the cafeteria and take it, and it's now filled with crags and whips, but we still have plenty of res and a second point in departures. The aliens have the just the two ons (say the skulks are trying to steal my res and are gone.)
How then, might I survive their attack? What should the com tell the guys do, and how would the com help?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're talking about end game where yea there are going to be a ton of oni if you fail to take and keep towers. Also in that scenario if you lost cafeteria you lost the game already, aliens are just going to drop a shift in and relentlessly attack your main. You also have the problem of relying on sentries, not going to work. If you have dual exos and people with res to get them, sure you could make a push on a hive and beacon back the regular marines when the aliens inevitably rush terminal but yea you're screwed if the aliens control 7 res towers as you've depicted. As well you should be.
<!--quoteo(post=2013815:date=Nov 6 2012, 11:53 PM:name=Juomari)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Juomari @ Nov 6 2012, 11:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013815"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->are you talking about your self huh ?
1. you need second hive to have onos, so they aren't missing that.
2. after you plant onos egg, you can get all important upgrades for your team in like 2mins.
3. it's not the onos that is overpowered, it's the distraction it causes to marines and allows rest of the aliens to expand and raise havoc, if it was 1v8 with onos then yeah, onos would lose pretty sure.
4. onos comes way too early, i've seen earliest onos on 4mins of the game when aliens got 6res nodes immidietly and gorges helping to build a hive, if aliens are cornered and forced to have ONLY 3rt's, you can get onos for aliens within 6mins, it's so stupid, marines can't have anything with 3 res nodes, imagine if marines sucks ass and they manage to hold only 3rt's and suddenly there would be flowing in exo's with dual miniguns.
there was one game i planted my self onos egg at 5min, i was able to take whole map ALONE because aliens sucked ass, but i was eventually killed and all my team did during 10mins when marines didn't have anything but 2rt was to build whips in hives like insane ammounts, so yeah, onos alone is not op but it needs the team, and if alien team knows what to do, onos is both impossible to kill but also gets your team more rt's, bases etc, wich in order gives alien more onoses.
but that all is not the point here, point is that aliens shouldn't be able to get onos, wich is very endgame lifeform at 6mins, not even 8mins, onoses belongs to endgame, skulks are perfectly capable to handle marines at 6mins of the game, if they aren't then aliens simply don't know how to play and doesn't deserve a win.
biggest problem is that aliens simply doesn't have so many resource sinks as marines, marines NEEDS and is ESSENTIAL to have 1. armslab with upgrades 2. phasegates 3. welders, mines and probably shotguns if aliens indeed go to 6min onos. So aliens can AFFORD to get that onos egg, marines CAN'T afford to go straight to exo's because there is more essential stuff to be had, and even if you went STRAIGHT for exo's ( wich would suck anyway without upgrades ), you need another commandstation, armory, armory upgrade, prototypelab, and exo upgrade, and in addition 50res to buy suit, and that is just normal exo, not dualminigun wich is supposed to be onos counterpart, that all costs 175res, and remember, that is only normal exo without any essentials marines needs. what aliens needs to have fully functional onos able to both def and offence is : hive(crag), cara upgrade, onos egg.
that's 160res to have fully functional onos wich is equal to marines dual minigun exo with level3 armor and mayby even level1 weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok let me break this down for you.
1. You don't need a second hive for onos... That was easy.
2. No you can't... Also easy. Just to clarify if you got an onos egg in 6 minutes, you probably skipped a hive and went straight for every node you could. While you will have decent res flow, you can get maybe 1 upgrade right away and that will still take about a minute. As far as the second hive, you'll have to save 40 cause now you have 0 and no second hive. You lose that onos, GG.
3. Yea no. The onos is killing people and denying areas, if marines aren't good enough to chase him down and kill him it's just bad marines. That onos is going to attack somewhere, you can send marines to trap him or even kill the one hive they have. A hive melts pretty damn fast with 5 or 6 marines shooting it, and beacon when they're done.
4. Yea if you drop 2 res towers at the start and do nothing else, you can get an onos in about 3 minutes. But that means no upgrades or second hive til about 5 minutes in, and you have some good skulks if the marines aren't kill either of those towers or pushing into the hive.
As for the rest of your comment, Exos are garbage without upgrades. If you rushed an exo with no upgrades, it'll die quickly. I actually tested to see how quickly I could rush exos by myself. So just on my own running around the map building everything myself. It took 7 minutes and 1 second to get exo research done and have 1 on the ground. And that could have been probably about 5 minutes if I had even 1 person helping me build. The min res required including 2 res towers just like aliens is 115, which is pretty damn close to aliens once you include cysts.
Your problem is you can't accept that you lose to a valid strategy, so you make up excuses about how "ONOS IS AN ENDGAME UNIT!". Well sorry to tell you this but you can get onos as soon as you have 75 res just like you can get exos as soon as you have 115. Play the alien side and see how good their "end game" is. Once marines have A3 W3 they can roll into a hive and kill it nearly instantly with LMG's. Hell marines can roll into a hive at the start of the game with A0 W0 and still roll the hive and egg lock.
<!--quoteo(post=2014140:date=Nov 8 2012, 03:01 AM:name=m3lior)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (m3lior @ Nov 8 2012, 03:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014140"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People keep saying that Exos are the perfect counter to the Onos. Have you guys not actually ever played Onos? In a straight up 1 on 1 scenario, the Onos wins always. When I play Onos, I even manage to take down Exos supported by 2-4 welders. Exos seem pathetically weak next to the Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually,
Onos beats single minigun exo and barely at that. 75 vs 50 tres, this is to be expected. Welders and MACs however will secure the exo win if the exo isn't a total nubface. What's even worse is 3 single minigun exo will beat 2 onos (150 tres vs 150 tres).
Caranos loses to dual minigun exo with no exception. 75 vs 75. So really, the picture is opposite of what you're painting.
People are right in saying the onos is too powerful even in late game and that a critical mass is very hard to beat due to i-win buttons. However, the only reason onos needs to be so powerful late game is because exo (especially dual) is likewise OP. This isn't a problem you can solve without nerfing exo power as well.
Onos beats single minigun exo and barely at that. 75 vs 50 tres, this is to be expected. Welders however will secure the exo win if the exo isn't a total nubface. What's even worse is 3 single minigun exo will beat 2 onos (150 tres vs 150 tres).
Caranos loses to dual minigun exo with no exception. 75 vs 75. So really, the picture is opposite of what you're painting.
People are right in saying the onos is too powerful even in late game and that a critical mass is very hard to beat due to i-win buttons. However, the only reason onos needs to be so powerful late game is because exo (especially dual) is likewise OP. This isn't a problem you can solve without nerfing exo power as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think it works that way in practice. I mean, last night I literally killed two dualie and one claw Exo at the same time, and only had to retreat once to get healed up again. The Exo wasn't fast enough to go anywhere by the time the two Crags healed me, so I went and finished smashing the last dualie. There are numerous Marines and one MAC supporting as well.
<!--quoteo(post=2014161:date=Nov 8 2012, 03:31 AM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Nov 8 2012, 03:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014161"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think it works that way in practice. I mean, last night I literally killed two dualie and one claw Exo at the same time, and only had to retreat once to get healed up again. The Exo wasn't fast enough to go anywhere by the time the two Crags healed me, so I went and finished smashing the last dualie. There are numerous Marines and one MAC supporting as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a human vs human game and as such there will always be anecdotal evidence against what should mathematically happen. I won't say what you experienced is untrue.
However, I think it's only helpful to think about balance in terms of what happens when people are, at the very least competent and at the same skill level.
Let's face it, exo is an immersion trip and has been balanced as one (visual obstruction from firing effects, big flashing bullet impact smoke, jumpjet smoke, low vertical fov, <b>no crosshair</b> etc.). Comp play doesn't see it's use because of the mobility limitations, but it's certainly feeling the ripple effects of onos power.
If any game goes for too long supposing that aliens have a decent amount of harvesters, it turns into onos fest 2012.
Last night we had a long drawn out game that hit the 45 minute mark. Next thing you know our team grabs 4 onos and a gorge and it's GG. It turns out that 4 onos can take out just about anything when they're together.
First off, I DO NOT want the Onos to actually be nerfed. Its current implementation is AWESOME. There are two primary problems, however:
1) Marines are in no way able to handle an early early Onos drop. If the teams are equal in skill, the alien team will push the Marine team back. Everyone saying that its the Marine team's fault for not strategically countering the Onos are missing the point. Yes, you need to counter the Alien tactic. Unfortunately, the balance is SKEWED at the current point. I don't know what the statistics are, but my guess is that the win rate for Alien teams pursuing an early Onos drop are much higher than the Marine teams.
2) Late-game, the Onos has AMAZINGLY higher ability to move in and out of combat than the EXOs. Have you seen how fast a Celerity Onos is? A good player will almost never die as Onos, because of the ability to fall back around a corner and heal. The EXO has no ability to pursue. Now, I'm certainly not pushing for equal EXO movement, but I think even a slight buff to movement would be good. As it is, it's a Rhino vs a mini-gun carrying Slug.
<ul><li>Adjust the tech requirements for t-res drop Onos to prevent its implementation until at LEAST around 15 minutes.</li><li>Buff EXO movement speed SLIGHTLY (not dramatically). One idea? Add a jet-boosted movement mechanic similar in function to the Gorge belly-slide (short distance linear movement boost, usable only periodically).</li><li>If you need counter buffs to balance win-rate, make Fades a little bit beefier. It's comical to drop a fade so easily with 2 shotgun blasts. Right now, they are not the terrifying killers that it feels like they should be.</li></ul>
I am of the opinion that stubborn marine tactics are to blame here, not the fast onos egg.
I would like to see the stats of res invested in taking res nodes compared to res invested in teching up marines. I think it would be very interesting. My theory is that, while it is very good to have many extractors active in the long run, their acquisition early game can be more of a hindrance than anything else. What I'm saying is that I think, around the 5 or 6 minute mark, it is more beneficial for marines to have say 3 or 4 extractors and have some investment in weapon upgrades, than it is to have 5 or 6 extractors and have things like shotguns, or phase gates and numerous outposts established.
Heres what typically happens with stubborn commanders in games where the aliens are rushing onos. Skulks come out, get killed against grouped marines because thats how early game typically works. 1-2 minutes in, skulks still have no upgrades, marines begin owning even harder, so marine commander decides to take ALL THE RES NODES. Marine commander researches shotguns to roflstomp skulks even harder, starts building phase gates and armories all over the map. 6 minutes comes up, Onos appears, and what do marines do? They have shotguns, they have phase tech, they have phase gates, they have outpost armories. What do these things do against an Onos? <b>Nothing</b>. Then the marine commander complains, because he got beaten by something he never even attempted to prepare for.
You cannot put so much effort into a strategy which owns skulks and holds territory, and then complain when you get beaten by a lifeform against which that strategy counts for nothing. Maybe drop one less armory, drop one less phase gate, take one less extractor, move to one less outpost, drop a couple less medpacks, hold back on dropping that second comm. Add all that together, and hey, you got weapons 2 by 5 minutes. 3 or 4 marines with level 2 weapons against one Onos with absolutely no upgrades, backed up by skulks who also have absolutely no upgrades? My money is on the marines, sorry to say.
You cant fix onos without fixing exo... How people can call the HMG an amazingly overpowered weapon but then blindly support dual minigun exos is beyond me, especially when that exo has unlimited ammo and does full structure damage, so basically two full damage hmgs... Now obviously there are tons of restrictions on the exo to attempt to balance it, but you cannot balance out the massive damage potential of the exo without completely breaking all the other units balance. IMO fighting an onos/exo as any other class/lifeform is amazingly frustrating and retarded experience, where skill has 0 relevance and its more about trying not to die instantly.
<!--quoteo(post=2014252:date=Nov 7 2012, 10:34 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 7 2012, 10:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014252"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You cant fix onos without fixing exo... How people can call the HMG an amazingly overpowered weapon but then blindly support dual minigun exos is beyond me, especially when that exo has unlimited ammo and does full structure damage, so basically two full damage hmgs... Now obviously there are tons of restrictions on the exo to attempt to balance it, but you cannot balance out the massive damage potential of the exo without completely breaking all the other units balance. IMO fighting an onos/exo as any other class/lifeform is amazingly frustrating and retarded experience, where skill has 0 relevance and its more about trying not to die instantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An Exo is significantly weaker than a HA armed with an HMG.
HA's kicked ass and took names. Exos just go kaboom.
<!--quoteo(post=2014252:date=Nov 7 2012, 08:34 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 7 2012, 08:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014252"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You cant fix onos without fixing exo... How people can call the HMG an amazingly overpowered weapon but then blindly support dual minigun exos is beyond me, especially when that exo has unlimited ammo and does full structure damage, so basically two full damage hmgs... Now obviously there are tons of restrictions on the exo to attempt to balance it, but you cannot balance out the massive damage potential of the exo without completely breaking all the other units balance. IMO fighting an onos/exo as any other class/lifeform is amazingly frustrating and retarded experience, where skill has 0 relevance and its more about trying not to die instantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find taking on exos as a skulk to be pretty damn fun, gorge as well, but less so. The annoying thing is how welders practically outheal the damage a skulk can do. Welder healing should be halved if the welding target is moving. Then you can make a choice. Movement and evasion with slower welding, or a static easy target with increased faster welding.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Caranos loses to dual minigun exo with no exception. 75 vs 75. So really, the picture is opposite of what you're painting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just a small observation... that IS the point. Assuming equal skill, a dual minigun exo should be able to kill a carapace onos *unless* the onos gets the jump on the exo from around a corner, and there is no time for the exo to soften the onos up. The onos literally has to be hitting the exo before the miniguns start winding up.
Otherwise, I see absolutely no issue with a dual minigun exo killing a carapace/celerity onos in 1 v 1, even if their res cost is the same.
This ties in perfectly with the marine principle of overwhelming firepower paired with reduced mobility and reduced durability. Think back to Aliens... the marines were able to kill alien after alien with their rifles, but each marine basically died in one or two hits.
Played a game last night, actually, where the Marines took 3 extractors and then started upgrading armor and weapons ASAP. Do you know what happened? The early Onos stopped the Marines from killing the Aliens extractors, allowing the Aliens to hold the entire rest of the map. After about 10-15 minutes, the marines had 3-4 extractors, and the Aliens had like 7. Did we kill some Onos'? Definitely. Shotgun focus fire ended up taking down at least 8-10 before the map ended. Heck, we even managed to drop the first one about 5 minutes after it had been t-res dropped. Unfortunately, the resource snowball was already in motion and it was a doomed effort. Marines were stuck in their base as the enemy team got Onos after Onos. We got w3a3 FAST, shotguns, grenade launchers, etc., but it was not enough.
<!--quoteo(post=2014255:date=Nov 7 2012, 01:37 PM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Nov 7 2012, 01:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014255"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An Exo is significantly weaker than a HA armed with an HMG was.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
100% agree. You can have HA trains that are nearly self-sufficient, needing only ammo and medpacks to keep going. They can weld each other, build stuff, walk faster, jump more often, don't get their vision obscured by bile bomb, HMGs never overheat, HMGs can be picked up by other HAs, etc etc.
Even a dual minigun Exo with 570 armor is not the same as two HAs armed with HMGs. Each HA can shoot the alien off the other HA, they can weld, watch each other's backs, etc etc.
Except they are not, not even close.. NS2 fade dies in 14 bullets to a exo's minigun, how many bullets did it take to kill a carapace fade in NS1? You can die faster to a single dual minigun exo than 3 HA Hmgs in NS1. HA could also be stomped by the onos, devoured, and also needed to STOP SHOOTING to weld. They didnt have robots following them welding them.
Just because the massive list of drawbacks to exos makes them quite frankly useless doesnt mean they have less damage potential/killing power.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like all the discussion comparing NS2 to NS1 is hurting more than helping. Both games are amazing, but they are DIFFERENT! Attempting to make them similar to each other is not going to help. It would be more beneficial to discuss current options within NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=2014257:date=Nov 8 2012, 05:37 AM:name=Gorgenapper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gorgenapper @ Nov 8 2012, 05:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014257"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just a small observation... that IS the point. Assuming equal skill, a dual minigun exo should be able to kill a carapace onos *unless* the onos gets the jump on the exo from around a corner, and there is no time for the exo to soften the onos up. The onos literally has to be hitting the exo before the miniguns start winding up.
Otherwise, I see absolutely no issue with a dual minigun exo killing a carapace/celerity onos in 1 v 1, even if their res cost is the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you think its ok to have two very expensive end game units interact in a way such that one of them has a safely guaranteed 100% winrate over the other?
I will dispute your claim that an onos can win against a dual exo if it gets the 'jump' on it. This isn't the case and i'd be happy to prove it to you if i ever bother to use a nubsuit with fraps on. It's really quite easy to avoid getting 'jumped' by an onos in the first place if you're semi competent with map awareness.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This ties in perfectly with the marine principle of overwhelming firepower paired with reduced mobility and reduced durability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The only consequence of 'mobility loss' is losing the game due to predictable counter-rushing - totally combat unrelated. As for reduced durability, i don't quite think this is something you can say of the exo. 570 armour isn't exactly trivial.
*edit For the sake of arguement, lets say an onos <b>can</b> beat an exo if it gets the 'jump' in. Pretty boring gameplay don't you think? Corner humping onos all day erry day.
<!--quoteo(post=2013821:date=Nov 7 2012, 01:31 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Nov 7 2012, 01:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013821"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The onos doesn't really need a nerf as such, or at least not a big nerf. However the 6min tres onos egg drops are too effective. Onos is a mid-to-late-game tool that early-to-mid marines can't effectively counter. Well positioned onos is a constant threat that forces early game marines marines to defend with many times its number. The problem here is not that the onos is not killable but the fact that while 3-4 marines are forced to concentrate on the onos, the rest of the alien team is almost free to do what they want.
... ... ...
tl;dr: 6 min onos is way too attractive an option right now and makes games boring. While it is not an auto-win-button, it does almost always pay itself back due to giving aliens a lot better map control. A lot of map control wins games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thorough and insightful, I agree with this. Onos works, just not at 6 min. I feel like it is just so inevitable that they will apply some limit to onos production (e.g. 3 hive requirement, or hive maturity restriction)
Aliens need 6min Onos because the Fade is worthless. Onos is their mid and end game right now. You can play all day right now and never see a single Fade.
<!--quoteo(post=2014299:date=Nov 7 2012, 11:16 AM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Nov 7 2012, 11:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014299"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens need 6min Onos because the Fade is worthless. Onos is their mid and end game right now. You can play all day right now and never see a single Fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, buff Fades to be on par with how strong the shotgun is, which would make it logical for Aliens to go to Fades instead of skipping them altogether. But with this buff, there needs to be a way to delay the onos somehow, similar to how long it takes for marines to get JP with GL or Exos.
The early Onos should be a legit strat... the more legit strats, the better. It's what makes strategy games deeper. The problem is that the amount of Marine personnel needed to deal with an early Onos is off the chart. You're looking at 1 Alien player as an Onos versus at least 3 or 4 Marine players, if not more. Yeah, the Onos is killable, but you're very likely to sacrifice map control because the other Alien players can take out Marine extractors and power nodes, or attack another base entirely if that many Marines are occupied with the Onos. It's a lose/lose situation for Marines, either let it wreak havoc or sacrifice map control to try and bring it down... and neither option is good.
<!--quoteo(post=2014316:date=Nov 7 2012, 11:34 AM:name=Hyperforms)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hyperforms @ Nov 7 2012, 11:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014316"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The early Onos should be a legit strat... the more legit strats, the better. It's what makes strategy games deeper. The problem is that the amount of Marine personnel needed to deal with an early Onos is off the chart. You're looking at 1 Alien player as an Onos versus at least 3 or 4 Marine players, if not more. Yeah, the Onos is killable, but you're very likely to sacrifice map control because the other Alien players can take out Marine extractors and power nodes, or attack another base entirely if that many Marines are occupied with the Onos. It's a lose/lose situation for Marines, either let it wreak havoc or sacrifice map control to try and bring it down... and neither option is good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And there lies the problem. As someone outlined in an earlier post. Even if the Onos dies, its not a huge setback to the aliens. So why no try it? And for the marines it's usually a devastating delay to their advancement. But either way, as commander I will just be prepared for it I guess.
Comments
Personally I think the problem needs to be solved through scaling, rather than hard caps such as locking it to the third hive, and I feel the same applies to the two hive limitation as well. An unlocked tech tree makes for much more interesting choices, but of course it needs scaling to be balanced. I have solid idea, at least I think it is solid, on how to do just that, and I will be writing a monster post on it in the not-to-distant future.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Onos too strong late game? How many games have you played. It's far harder for Aliens to finish off Marines who hold a single base then it is vice versa. Grenade launcher spam plus armouries and macs can keep their base going for quite a while. If you charge in with an Onos you'll be dead in around 15 seconds. At a minimum it requires a minimum of 3 Onos plus the rest of the team against a competent Marine team.
I've suggested previously that commander egg drops should use hive population like drifters do to prevent the spam or even make it possible to drop a single onos off of a single hive to break reverse res lock stalemates when aliens cannot secure a second hive to advance further
This along with the suggestion to allow gorge to use pres to drop eggs or drop advanced lifeform eggs for other players like marines can drop a grenade launcher on the ground also looks like it could be good for the metagame
This would also pull focus away from shift hive being the only counter against egglock and might allow shift to gain new abilities
These things are unstoppable late game, and when you have 2-3 of them it's just stupidly powerful. An early onos is a risky move, but no nearly as much to compensate for the amount of damage they can do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats because most rines are still noobs.
In beta u had to be really careful as onos or ur dead.
Exo is the anti onos defense (defense because exo is slow) and jetpack shotgun rines can hunt down a hurt onos.
On top u can use the mac emp to take the energy away from the onos.. then attack is rly slow and it cant sprint away.
U can also just place a big structure in a doorway and block the onos attack or escape (just place and build it 1 sec... gives enough time to kill the onos before the onos kills the not fully build sturcture).
Personally I think the problem needs to be solved through scaling, rather than hard caps such as locking it to the third hive, and I feel the same applies to the two hive limitation as well. An unlocked tech tree makes for much more interesting choices, but of course it needs scaling to be balanced. I have solid idea, at least I think it is solid, on how to do just that, and I will be writing a monster post on it in the not-to-distant future.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the onos needs more ways to fail. Or in other words a skill full mechanic. Bone shield would be the best for it. You can't balance the onos purely over health. You need a mechanic that needs skill, so you can beat it. Not just X marines to make enough damage.
At the early onos drop. The easiest way to counter this, is that a player needs to evolve into a life form first, before the com can buy them with t-res. This balances the timings again.
I've taken down a good few Onos as dual minigun Exo. I had a few marines with me as well, and it has been close, but it almost almost works for me.
I think the Onos is fine and balanced as it is right now. Some of you are saying they are hard to take down late game? What? It's harder to take one down with more tech? The alien abilities are good, but none of them will help (much) against a bunch of marines flying around spamming bullets into your massive arse.
What is the best way to stop an Onos rush who is attacking my base? Let's say I'm comming and I have six guys in the terminal on the docking level late game, and a pair of Onos outside in the platform waiting to rush in. I have all the weapons and equipment upgrades, a proto lab with a basic exo unlocked, a robotics lab with sentries, and an observatory. Some sloppy fighting has let them push through the cafeteria and take it, and it's now filled with crags and whips, but we still have plenty of res and a second point in departures. The aliens have the just the two ons (say the skulks are trying to steal my res and are gone.)
How then, might I survive their attack? What should the com tell the guys do, and how would the com help?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're talking about end game where yea there are going to be a ton of oni if you fail to take and keep towers. Also in that scenario if you lost cafeteria you lost the game already, aliens are just going to drop a shift in and relentlessly attack your main. You also have the problem of relying on sentries, not going to work. If you have dual exos and people with res to get them, sure you could make a push on a hive and beacon back the regular marines when the aliens inevitably rush terminal but yea you're screwed if the aliens control 7 res towers as you've depicted. As well you should be.
<!--quoteo(post=2013815:date=Nov 6 2012, 11:53 PM:name=Juomari)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Juomari @ Nov 6 2012, 11:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013815"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->are you talking about your self huh ?
1. you need second hive to have onos, so they aren't missing that.
2. after you plant onos egg, you can get all important upgrades for your team in like 2mins.
3. it's not the onos that is overpowered, it's the distraction it causes to marines and allows rest of the aliens to expand and raise havoc, if it was 1v8 with onos then yeah, onos would lose pretty sure.
4. onos comes way too early, i've seen earliest onos on 4mins of the game when aliens got 6res nodes immidietly and gorges helping to build a hive, if aliens are cornered and forced to have ONLY 3rt's, you can get onos for aliens within 6mins, it's so stupid, marines can't have anything with 3 res nodes, imagine if marines sucks ass and they manage to hold only 3rt's and suddenly there would be flowing in exo's with dual miniguns.
there was one game i planted my self onos egg at 5min, i was able to take whole map ALONE because aliens sucked ass, but i was eventually killed and all my team did during 10mins when marines didn't have anything but 2rt was to build whips in hives like insane ammounts, so yeah, onos alone is not op but it needs the team, and if alien team knows what to do, onos is both impossible to kill but also gets your team more rt's, bases etc, wich in order gives alien more onoses.
but that all is not the point here, point is that aliens shouldn't be able to get onos, wich is very endgame lifeform at 6mins, not even 8mins, onoses belongs to endgame, skulks are perfectly capable to handle marines at 6mins of the game, if they aren't then aliens simply don't know how to play and doesn't deserve a win.
biggest problem is that aliens simply doesn't have so many resource sinks as marines, marines NEEDS and is ESSENTIAL to have 1. armslab with upgrades 2. phasegates 3. welders, mines and probably shotguns if aliens indeed go to 6min onos. So aliens can AFFORD to get that onos egg, marines CAN'T afford to go straight to exo's because there is more essential stuff to be had, and even if you went STRAIGHT for exo's ( wich would suck anyway without upgrades ), you need another commandstation, armory, armory upgrade, prototypelab, and exo upgrade, and in addition 50res to buy suit, and that is just normal exo, not dualminigun wich is supposed to be onos counterpart, that all costs 175res, and remember, that is only normal exo without any essentials marines needs. what aliens needs to have fully functional onos able to both def and offence is : hive(crag), cara upgrade, onos egg.
that's 160res to have fully functional onos wich is equal to marines dual minigun exo with level3 armor and mayby even level1 weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok let me break this down for you.
1. You don't need a second hive for onos... That was easy.
2. No you can't... Also easy. Just to clarify if you got an onos egg in 6 minutes, you probably skipped a hive and went straight for every node you could. While you will have decent res flow, you can get maybe 1 upgrade right away and that will still take about a minute. As far as the second hive, you'll have to save 40 cause now you have 0 and no second hive. You lose that onos, GG.
3. Yea no. The onos is killing people and denying areas, if marines aren't good enough to chase him down and kill him it's just bad marines. That onos is going to attack somewhere, you can send marines to trap him or even kill the one hive they have. A hive melts pretty damn fast with 5 or 6 marines shooting it, and beacon when they're done.
4. Yea if you drop 2 res towers at the start and do nothing else, you can get an onos in about 3 minutes. But that means no upgrades or second hive til about 5 minutes in, and you have some good skulks if the marines aren't kill either of those towers or pushing into the hive.
As for the rest of your comment, Exos are garbage without upgrades. If you rushed an exo with no upgrades, it'll die quickly. I actually tested to see how quickly I could rush exos by myself. So just on my own running around the map building everything myself. It took 7 minutes and 1 second to get exo research done and have 1 on the ground. And that could have been probably about 5 minutes if I had even 1 person helping me build. The min res required including 2 res towers just like aliens is 115, which is pretty damn close to aliens once you include cysts.
Your problem is you can't accept that you lose to a valid strategy, so you make up excuses about how "ONOS IS AN ENDGAME UNIT!". Well sorry to tell you this but you can get onos as soon as you have 75 res just like you can get exos as soon as you have 115. Play the alien side and see how good their "end game" is. Once marines have A3 W3 they can roll into a hive and kill it nearly instantly with LMG's. Hell marines can roll into a hive at the start of the game with A0 W0 and still roll the hive and egg lock.
Actually,
Onos beats single minigun exo and barely at that. 75 vs 50 tres, this is to be expected. Welders and MACs however will secure the exo win if the exo isn't a total nubface. What's even worse is 3 single minigun exo will beat 2 onos (150 tres vs 150 tres).
Caranos loses to dual minigun exo with no exception. 75 vs 75. So really, the picture is opposite of what you're painting.
People are right in saying the onos is too powerful even in late game and that a critical mass is very hard to beat due to i-win buttons. However, the only reason onos needs to be so powerful late game is because exo (especially dual) is likewise OP. This isn't a problem you can solve without nerfing exo power as well.
Onos beats single minigun exo and barely at that. 75 vs 50 tres, this is to be expected. Welders however will secure the exo win if the exo isn't a total nubface. What's even worse is 3 single minigun exo will beat 2 onos (150 tres vs 150 tres).
Caranos loses to dual minigun exo with no exception. 75 vs 75. So really, the picture is opposite of what you're painting.
People are right in saying the onos is too powerful even in late game and that a critical mass is very hard to beat due to i-win buttons. However, the only reason onos needs to be so powerful late game is because exo (especially dual) is likewise OP. This isn't a problem you can solve without nerfing exo power as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think it works that way in practice. I mean, last night I literally killed two dualie and one claw Exo at the same time, and only had to retreat once to get healed up again. The Exo wasn't fast enough to go anywhere by the time the two Crags healed me, so I went and finished smashing the last dualie. There are numerous Marines and one MAC supporting as well.
This is a human vs human game and as such there will always be anecdotal evidence against what should mathematically happen. I won't say what you experienced is untrue.
However, I think it's only helpful to think about balance in terms of what happens when people are, at the very least competent and at the same skill level.
Let's face it, exo is an immersion trip and has been balanced as one (visual obstruction from firing effects, big flashing bullet impact smoke, jumpjet smoke, low vertical fov, <b>no crosshair</b> etc.). Comp play doesn't see it's use because of the mobility limitations, but it's certainly feeling the ripple effects of onos power.
Last night we had a long drawn out game that hit the 45 minute mark. Next thing you know our team grabs 4 onos and a gorge and it's GG. It turns out that 4 onos can take out just about anything when they're together.
First off, I DO NOT want the Onos to actually be nerfed. Its current implementation is AWESOME. There are two primary problems, however:
1) Marines are in no way able to handle an early early Onos drop. If the teams are equal in skill, the alien team will push the Marine team back. Everyone saying that its the Marine team's fault for not strategically countering the Onos are missing the point. Yes, you need to counter the Alien tactic. Unfortunately, the balance is SKEWED at the current point. I don't know what the statistics are, but my guess is that the win rate for Alien teams pursuing an early Onos drop are much higher than the Marine teams.
2) Late-game, the Onos has AMAZINGLY higher ability to move in and out of combat than the EXOs. Have you seen how fast a Celerity Onos is? A good player will almost never die as Onos, because of the ability to fall back around a corner and heal. The EXO has no ability to pursue. Now, I'm certainly not pushing for equal EXO movement, but I think even a slight buff to movement would be good. As it is, it's a Rhino vs a mini-gun carrying Slug.
<ul><li>Adjust the tech requirements for t-res drop Onos to prevent its implementation until at LEAST around 15 minutes.</li><li>Buff EXO movement speed SLIGHTLY (not dramatically). One idea? Add a jet-boosted movement mechanic similar in function to the Gorge belly-slide (short distance linear movement boost, usable only periodically).</li><li>If you need counter buffs to balance win-rate, make Fades a little bit beefier. It's comical to drop a fade so easily with 2 shotgun blasts. Right now, they are not the terrifying killers that it feels like they should be.</li></ul>
I would like to see the stats of res invested in taking res nodes compared to res invested in teching up marines. I think it would be very interesting. My theory is that, while it is very good to have many extractors active in the long run, their acquisition early game can be more of a hindrance than anything else. What I'm saying is that I think, around the 5 or 6 minute mark, it is more beneficial for marines to have say 3 or 4 extractors and have some investment in weapon upgrades, than it is to have 5 or 6 extractors and have things like shotguns, or phase gates and numerous outposts established.
Heres what typically happens with stubborn commanders in games where the aliens are rushing onos. Skulks come out, get killed against grouped marines because thats how early game typically works. 1-2 minutes in, skulks still have no upgrades, marines begin owning even harder, so marine commander decides to take ALL THE RES NODES. Marine commander researches shotguns to roflstomp skulks even harder, starts building phase gates and armories all over the map. 6 minutes comes up, Onos appears, and what do marines do? They have shotguns, they have phase tech, they have phase gates, they have outpost armories. What do these things do against an Onos? <b>Nothing</b>. Then the marine commander complains, because he got beaten by something he never even attempted to prepare for.
You cannot put so much effort into a strategy which owns skulks and holds territory, and then complain when you get beaten by a lifeform against which that strategy counts for nothing. Maybe drop one less armory, drop one less phase gate, take one less extractor, move to one less outpost, drop a couple less medpacks, hold back on dropping that second comm. Add all that together, and hey, you got weapons 2 by 5 minutes. 3 or 4 marines with level 2 weapons against one Onos with absolutely no upgrades, backed up by skulks who also have absolutely no upgrades? My money is on the marines, sorry to say.
An Exo is significantly weaker than a HA armed with an HMG.
HA's kicked ass and took names. Exos just go kaboom.
I find taking on exos as a skulk to be pretty damn fun, gorge as well, but less so. The annoying thing is how welders practically outheal the damage a skulk can do. Welder healing should be halved if the welding target is moving. Then you can make a choice. Movement and evasion with slower welding, or a static easy target with increased faster welding.
Just a small observation... that IS the point. Assuming equal skill, a dual minigun exo should be able to kill a carapace onos *unless* the onos gets the jump on the exo from around a corner, and there is no time for the exo to soften the onos up. The onos literally has to be hitting the exo before the miniguns start winding up.
Otherwise, I see absolutely no issue with a dual minigun exo killing a carapace/celerity onos in 1 v 1, even if their res cost is the same.
This ties in perfectly with the marine principle of overwhelming firepower paired with reduced mobility and reduced durability. Think back to Aliens... the marines were able to kill alien after alien with their rifles, but each marine basically died in one or two hits.
100% agree. You can have HA trains that are nearly self-sufficient, needing only ammo and medpacks to keep going. They can weld each other, build stuff, walk faster, jump more often, don't get their vision obscured by bile bomb, HMGs never overheat, HMGs can be picked up by other HAs, etc etc.
Even a dual minigun Exo with 570 armor is not the same as two HAs armed with HMGs. Each HA can shoot the alien off the other HA, they can weld, watch each other's backs, etc etc.
Just because the massive list of drawbacks to exos makes them quite frankly useless doesnt mean they have less damage potential/killing power.
Otherwise, I see absolutely no issue with a dual minigun exo killing a carapace/celerity onos in 1 v 1, even if their res cost is the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you think its ok to have two very expensive end game units interact in a way such that one of them has a safely guaranteed 100% winrate over the other?
I will dispute your claim that an onos can win against a dual exo if it gets the 'jump' on it. This isn't the case and i'd be happy to prove it to you if i ever bother to use a nubsuit with fraps on. It's really quite easy to avoid getting 'jumped' by an onos in the first place if you're semi competent with map awareness.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This ties in perfectly with the marine principle of overwhelming firepower paired with reduced mobility and reduced durability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only consequence of 'mobility loss' is losing the game due to predictable counter-rushing - totally combat unrelated.
As for reduced durability, i don't quite think this is something you can say of the exo. 570 armour isn't exactly trivial.
*edit
For the sake of arguement, lets say an onos <b>can</b> beat an exo if it gets the 'jump' in. Pretty boring gameplay don't you think? Corner humping onos all day erry day.
...
...
...
tl;dr: 6 min onos is way too attractive an option right now and makes games boring. While it is not an auto-win-button, it does almost always pay itself back due to giving aliens a lot better map control. A lot of map control wins games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thorough and insightful, I agree with this. Onos works, just not at 6 min. I feel like it is just so inevitable that they will apply some limit to onos production (e.g. 3 hive requirement, or hive maturity restriction)
Agreed, buff Fades to be on par with how strong the shotgun is, which would make it logical for Aliens to go to Fades instead of skipping them altogether. But with this buff, there needs to be a way to delay the onos somehow, similar to how long it takes for marines to get JP with GL or Exos.
And there lies the problem. As someone outlined in an earlier post. Even if the Onos dies, its not a huge setback to the aliens. So why no try it? And for the marines it's usually a devastating delay to their advancement. But either way, as commander I will just be prepared for it I guess.