Do I think people who started playing on the release date have opinions as well crafted and informed as those with more experience? HELL NO. But once you put 20 hours into the game I think you've been playing long enough to know when something is clearly just wrong. Like the 6 minute Onos.. no one is having fun when that happens. The Onii aren't being challenged and have everything on ez-mode, the marines are basically ######, and everyone ends the game feeling unsatisfied. Honestly, I think that the first time that happens people probably know it's wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not THAT deep a game, beyond map specific and situational strategies - i.e. what to do at x location in y scenario, when you have z lifeforms around at locations a, b and c. But I guess the same can be said for most games.
I'd argue that as long as it's still being worked on, and development being tweaked, that there's still stuff to learn. The only difference I see between beta people and release people is that beta people know the maps better (apart from refinery). As for strategy... well that changed pretty much every build in the beta. Something that used to be effective can sometimes no longer be effective at all
<!--quoteo(post=2014950:date=Nov 7 2012, 11:46 PM:name=Koven)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koven @ Nov 7 2012, 11:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just shut up and don't post if you don't know what you're talking about :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But its a public forum!
Also remember this is a game, not astrophysics. Dont get pretentious until you have something of worth to be pretentious about.
I really wish people wouldn't focus on public vs competitive players.
Pub play strategies will follow competitive play strategies. The onos in pub play isn't much different despite the higher player numbers because of the lower amount of coordination. It's still an unfair and unfun strategy for marines to face. The fact that you may not have faced the super fast onos drops in pubs is not evidence that it is balanced. I guarantee you that if this goes unchanged then you will see it more and more frequently as the masses learn how powerful it is.
<!--quoteo(post=2015093:date=Nov 7 2012, 10:40 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Nov 7 2012, 10:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015093"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really wish people wouldn't focus on public vs competitive players.
Pub play strategies will follow competitive play strategies. The onos in pub play isn't much different despite the higher player numbers because of the lower amount of coordination. It's still an unfair and unfun strategy for marines to face. The fact that you may not have faced the super fast onos drops in pubs is not evidence that it is balanced. I guarantee you that if this goes unchanged then you will see it more and more frequently as the masses learn how powerful it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me be clear: I hate the early Onos drop. I honestly think Onos should be locked to hive 3, and used only as a siege device. I think Fades, Lerks, and Skulks should be what wins you the games, Onos should be the closer. As it is now, what wins you games is "more Onos, faster!"
<!--quoteo(post=2015098:date=Nov 8 2012, 01:44 AM:name=hate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hate @ Nov 8 2012, 01:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015098"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let me be clear: I hate the early Onos drop. I honestly think Onos should be locked to hive 3, and used only as a siege device. I think Fades, Lerks, and Skulks should be what wins you the games, Onos should be the closer. As it is now, what wins you games is "more Onos, faster!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. I think there are more solutions than to just restrict it to hive 3, but something needs to be done.
I think moving the onos egg to the 3rd hive is just a knee-jerk reaction that would fix the 6min problem with a never-onos-drops-before-game-is-over problem. I think the 6 min onos only needs to be delayed and it will be balanced. If you had to upgrade the hive for 25 res or maybe build a separate structure for 25 to be able to drop onos eggs, a 2 min delay on the onos would make it a much less used strategy but still possibly keep it viable. Right now the strategy is OP mostly because of the timing of it. If that timing was delayed, you'd have khammanders thinking hard whether or not other upgrades might be better.
<!--quoteo(post=2015073:date=Nov 7 2012, 10:23 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Nov 7 2012, 10:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015073"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A lot of your comments in this thread have been at odds with the actual mechanics and the general consensus. I'll try to elaborate on what we (the plz fix onos drops crowd) are talking about.
We're not talking about onos beating turret spamming pubs. Instead, we're posting about how the onos is beating EVERYTHING except when marines are able to win before the onos comes out, or shortly there after, by a) killing a hive or b) killing a lot of RTs. Realistically, assuming relatively similar skill levels and execution, neither a) nor b) should be happening.
Also, you need a second hive to drop the onos egg. If aliens are losing 2/3 of their RTs in the first couple minutes, then I don't think this matters. If your answer to counter onos is basically "just win the game" then we're kind of talking past each other at this point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please by all means tell me where I'm wrong about the mechanics, and the "general concensus" is coming from people who are very new and think turtling should be the answer to everything.
How does losing 2 of 3 res towers NOT stop them from getting an onos out in 6 minutes or less? That second hive costs 40 res, 10 per harvester, and that puts you at -10 not including cysts. And if you want that onos to be at all effective you need carapace and celerity or adrenaline. I watched arc play exertus, exertus beat arc when they used the early onos strat and they got it out in like 4 1/2 minutes. I'm not asking for your opinion, I'm telling you the fact, early onos doesn't mean the end of the game. Will it overwhelm some pub players, hell yea it will. Is it possible stop it, yes completely. If you don't keep pressure on the other team and they get 2 hives and 3 or 4 res towers for 6 minutes, you will have a hard time. Just like if you give marines the same thing, they end up with upgrades and exos.
Just to prove a point I did a test server where I ran around building 4 rt's, a comm chair, an upgraded armory, observatory, and a prototype lab. Took me 7 minutes to do all that, research exos, and have 1 on the field. And if I wasn't alone jumping in and out of the chair, it would have taken less time. That's pretty comparable to an early onos, but no one is going to complain about that because no one does it. Early onos puts all your res into one guy, and you have to hope he doesn't die and it buys you enough time to take the rest of the map.
I'm sure there were a few comp games that an early onos made a big difference, but that just sounds like you lost and you're mad about it. And I'm sure you only care about comp games, but in the pub games where the other 99% of are, an early onos doesn't always win. And if you don't believe it play some more games. I guarantee you, you'll find early onos can be countered easily if the team works together.
<!--quoteo(post=2015143:date=Nov 8 2012, 01:58 AM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Nov 8 2012, 01:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015143"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please by all means tell me where I'm wrong about the mechanics, and the "general concensus" is coming from people who are very new and think turtling should be the answer to everything.
How does losing 2 of 3 res towers NOT stop them from getting an onos out in 6 minutes or less? That second hive costs 40 res, 10 per harvester, and that puts you at -10 not including cysts. And if you want that onos to be at all effective you need carapace and celerity or adrenaline. I watched arc play exertus, exertus beat arc when they used the early onos strat and they got it out in like 4 1/2 minutes. I'm not asking for your opinion, I'm telling you the fact, early onos doesn't mean the end of the game. Will it overwhelm some pub players, hell yea it will. Is it possible stop it, yes completely. If you don't keep pressure on the other team and they get 2 hives and 3 or 4 res towers for 6 minutes, you will have a hard time. Just like if you give marines the same thing, they end up with upgrades and exos.
Just to prove a point I did a test server where I ran around building 4 rt's, a comm chair, an upgraded armory, observatory, and a prototype lab. Took me 7 minutes to do all that, research exos, and have 1 on the field. And if I wasn't alone jumping in and out of the chair, it would have taken less time. That's pretty comparable to an early onos, but no one is going to complain about that because no one does it. Early onos puts all your res into one guy, and you have to hope he doesn't die and it buys you enough time to take the rest of the map.
I'm sure there were a few comp games that an early onos made a big difference, but that just sounds like you lost and you're mad about it. And I'm sure you only care about comp games, but in the pub games where the other 99% of are, an early onos doesn't always win. And if you don't believe it play some more games. I guarantee you, you'll find early onos can be countered easily if the team works together.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dunno why you are defending this ######. It seriously makes the game garbage.
Also the ease of using the Onos vs beating the strategy is completely out of sync. Especially in pub games.
It's like your defending this ###### for no reason. Because it is beatable, doesn't mean it is healthy for the game. It doesn't mean it is balanced. It also limits strategy. It is clear and cut what the best option is, and that is an Onos rush.
The game shouldn't revolve around it. Don't know what else to say..
<!--quoteo(post=2015198:date=Nov 8 2012, 02:06 AM:name=DanielD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DanielD @ Nov 8 2012, 02:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015198"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about, in addition to the current two hives, requiring an upgraded spur/shell/veil?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i don't think there is a huge difference between carapace --> onos and onos --> carapace
<!--quoteo(post=2015143:date=Nov 8 2012, 10:58 AM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Nov 8 2012, 10:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015143"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How does losing 2 of 3 res towers NOT stop them from getting an onos out in 6 minutes or less? That second hive costs 40 res, 10 per harvester, and that puts you at -10 not including cysts. And if you want that onos to be at all effective you need carapace and celerity or adrenaline. I watched arc play exertus, exertus beat arc when they used the early onos strat and they got it out in like 4 1/2 minutes. I'm not asking for your opinion, I'm telling you the fact, early onos doesn't mean the end of the game. Will it overwhelm some pub players, hell yea it will. Is it possible stop it, yes completely. If you don't keep pressure on the other team and they get 2 hives and 3 or 4 res towers for 6 minutes, you will have a hard time. Just like if you give marines the same thing, they end up with upgrades and exos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You do realize that if you can take down 2 or 3 out of the alien teams' 2 or 3 res towers during the first 4-5 minutes, you are doing really really really well? Even keeping the aliens to 2 rts on average takes some pretty good pressure. Balancing something on the assumption that you need to steamroll someone in the first few minutes just to stay in the game a few minutes after 6min mark is - how can I put this politely - stupid. Also, effective onos does not need any of the upgrades you listed. None at all, since the marines will be under-equipped and under-upgraded due to the onos being really early. They do benefit from a gorge though, and carapace is extremely good for the onoses. It is usual to see onos come first and then get carapace 1-2 minutes later.
Since you go on and use our teams plays as examples, maybe you might give my arguments some credit too. One can only hope. The thing is, you are correct in saying the onos itself is counterable (although this is difficult and always a bit touch-and-go). The onos counters however are really manpower-intensive, which means that the aliens can basically use just the onos to tie down half of the marine team and forces marines to defend 1-2 chokepoints. You can for instance have a comm as gorge doing part-time onos push healing, onos, 2-3 skulks eating marine RTs at all times and then have 1-2 skulks running in behind the onos, with the onos tanking shots and mines. Or you can just use the onos as a meat shield and push a skulk rush in without the skulks taking shots when closing in. What this boils down to, even an expertly countered onos will offer an advantage so significant that the choice to go with the 6 min onos strategy is a no-brainer. It is currently too good and too easy to pull off, and this is making the gameplay stagnant. Can it be countered? Sure. Is it too powerful? Yes, but not all that much. Is it too good compared to other alien strategies? Absolutely.
<!--quoteo(post=2015143:date=Nov 8 2012, 10:58 AM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Nov 8 2012, 10:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015143"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just to prove a point I did a test server where I ran around building 4 rt's, a comm chair, an upgraded armory, observatory, and a prototype lab. Took me 7 minutes to do all that, research exos, and have 1 on the field. And if I wasn't alone jumping in and out of the chair, it would have taken less time. That's pretty comparable to an early onos, but no one is going to complain about that because no one does it. Early onos puts all your res into one guy, and you have to hope he doesn't die and it buys you enough time to take the rest of the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What was that point you wanted to make, exactly? You can actually get jets or exos out much faster. The trick is to upgrade an armory right of the bat, then get the 2nd chair up somewhere and drop the proto lab. Once you have the proto up, you sell the adv. armory and buy the research. What you now have is early jets or exos without upgrades and with limited tools. We have experimented with early jet rushes and they were really good some 20 patches back, when jetpacks were better. Now other paths offer way more advantages. We also have recently experimented with early exos and that strategy is fail. Exos start staying alive at level 2 armour. Even level 1 armour just isn't enough on exos, and you end up losing your investments really easily. The early exos are NOT a strategy even lose to the level of the 6 min onoses, or close to almost any marine strat for that matter. They are better than turret-spam though... This get-early-exos piece of "brilliant" strategy gets from time to time thrown into discussions by people who actually have not tried using it in an even match and who are just throwing around baseless theories and hoping something sticks. Let me say it once more: It is not a useful strategy.
<!--quoteo(post=2015143:date=Nov 8 2012, 10:58 AM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Nov 8 2012, 10:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015143"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sure there were a few comp games that an early onos made a big difference, but that just sounds like you lost and you're mad about it. And I'm sure you only care about comp games, but in the pub games where the other 99% of are, an early onos doesn't always win. And if you don't believe it play some more games. I guarantee you, you'll find early onos can be countered easily if the team works together.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sure there are maybe 90% of current comp games where that early onos made a big difference. Do we actually have to go to publics and start doing that 6 min onos and stream it for it to be recognized as a problem? That the problem is not as bad on publics (as people don't want to cheese every round or don't know how) doesn't mean it isn't a genuine problem.
<!--quoteo(post=2015266:date=Nov 8 2012, 11:27 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Nov 8 2012, 11:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sure there are maybe 90% of current comp games where that early onos made a big difference. Do we actually have to go to publics and start doing that 6 min onos and stream it for it to be recognized as a problem? That the problem is not as bad on publics (as people don't want to cheese every round or don't know how) doesn't mean it isn't a genuine problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the best way to get the dev team out of their coma, ruin the game for as many people as possible using their poorly designed mechanics, works even better in games with smaller communities. I do the onos rush pretty much every round I comm a pub.
Step 1: Reduce Onos armor by 50% or so. Step 2: Give Onos a 2 hive upgrade (thick hide) which increases armor to its present value. 25-30 res cost. Step 3: Profit?
<!--quoteo(post=2015158:date=Nov 8 2012, 01:12 AM:name=BootyPoppin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BootyPoppin @ Nov 8 2012, 01:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015158"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dunno why you are defending this ######. It seriously makes the game garbage.
Also the ease of using the Onos vs beating the strategy is completely out of sync. Especially in pub games.
It's like your defending this ###### for no reason. Because it is beatable, doesn't mean it is healthy for the game. It doesn't mean it is balanced. It also limits strategy. It is clear and cut what the best option is, and that is an Onos rush.
The game shouldn't revolve around it. Don't know what else to say..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And without an onos the plan to counter a marine turtle is what now?
<!--quoteo(post=2015266:date=Nov 8 2012, 03:27 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Nov 8 2012, 03:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You do realize that if you can take down 2 or 3 out of the alien teams' 2 or 3 res towers during the first 4-5 minutes, you are doing really really really well? Even keeping the aliens to 2 rts on average takes some pretty good pressure. Balancing something on the assumption that you need to steamroll someone in the first few minutes just to stay in the game a few minutes after 6min mark is - how can I put this politely - stupid. Also, effective onos does not need any of the upgrades you listed. None at all, since the marines will be under-equipped and under-upgraded due to the onos being really early. They do benefit from a gorge though, and carapace is extremely good for the onoses. It is usual to see onos come first and then get carapace 1-2 minutes later.
Since you go on and use our teams plays as examples, maybe you might give my arguments some credit too. One can only hope. The thing is, you are correct in saying the onos itself is counterable (although this is difficult and always a bit touch-and-go). The onos counters however are really manpower-intensive, which means that the aliens can basically use just the onos to tie down half of the marine team and forces marines to defend 1-2 chokepoints.
What was that point you wanted to make, exactly?
I'm sure there are maybe 90% of current comp games where that early onos made a big difference. Do we actually have to go to publics and start doing that 6 min onos and stream it for it to be recognized as a problem? That the problem is not as bad on publics (as people don't want to cheese every round or don't know how) doesn't mean it isn't a genuine problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't call killing 2 res towers in the first 5 minutes "doing really well", generally a 2 marine team is pretty effective at running around killing towers. That leaves about 5 guys to expand and base build. That's another 2 and 3 man team. Marines with good aim kill skulks pretty fast so I don't see how that's a problem. If you look at comp matches I've seen arc lock down the hive with 2 guys for a few minutes at a time.
An onos without carapace has a total of about 1900 damage they can take right? 600 of that is armor so against an lmg that's really more like 1200, so a real total of 2500. 4 full LMG mags will do 2000, that leaves 500 and a full pistol magazine does 250 x 4 people that's 1000. In my experience there's no way that you shouldn't at least empty 1 entire lmg magazine into an onos. And mind you that's level 0 weapons. So 4 guys should have no problem killing an onos especially if it's alone, and you give one of those guys a shotgun that's 170 per shot times 8 so about 1220 if he gets his whole magazine off. So realistically 2 shotguns and an lmg marine should be able to easily kill an onos without carapace. But yea that's on paper, it does take coordination to actually accomplish that.
My point was having 1 or 2 early exos or even just 1 defending the base would make a big difference also, but no one does it cause turtling is the most loved marine strat.
Go ahead and play some pubs, I don't know why you wouldn't. The game is fun to me whether it's a comp match or pub match. You'll see there are a lot of six minute or less onos strats going on, and it doesn't always mean losing. And again those only work when the aliens aren't being pressured.
<!--quoteo(post=2015431:date=Nov 8 2012, 02:29 PM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Nov 8 2012, 02:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015431"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wouldn't call killing 2 res towers in the first 5 minutes "doing really well", generally a 2 marine team is pretty effective at running around killing towers. That leaves about 5 guys to expand and base build. That's another 2 and 3 man team. Marines with good aim kill skulks pretty fast so I don't see how that's a problem. If you look at comp matches I've seen arc lock down the hive with 2 guys for a few minutes at a time.
An onos without carapace has a total of about 1900 damage they can take right? 600 of that is armor so against an lmg that's really more like 1200, so a real total of 2500. 4 full LMG mags will do 2000, that leaves 500 and a full pistol magazine does 250 x 4 people that's 1000. In my experience there's no way that you shouldn't at least empty 1 entire lmg magazine into an onos. And mind you that's level 0 weapons. So 4 guys should have no problem killing an onos especially if it's alone, and you give one of those guys a shotgun that's 170 per shot times 8 so about 1220 if he gets his whole magazine off. So realistically 2 shotguns and an lmg marine should be able to easily kill an onos without carapace. But yea that's on paper, it does take coordination to actually accomplish that.
My point was having 1 or 2 early exos or even just 1 defending the base would make a big difference also, but no one does it cause turtling is the most loved marine strat.
Go ahead and play some pubs, I don't know why you wouldn't. The game is fun to me whether it's a comp match or pub match. You'll see there are a lot of six minute or less onos strats going on, and it doesn't always mean losing. And again those only work when the aliens aren't being pressured.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly, you are arguing it is easy to kill 2 res towers early game because you are playing against alien commanders who do not know how to command. I have said this so many times it is starting to hurt: Unless on Veil or Refinary the Alien team should next to always take the nearest hive, its res node and the one in between ONLY unless they are REALLY winning.
Thus the Alien team will have 3 res nodes, one in each hive and one between both hives. If you are able as the marine team to constantly take these down... You are seriously winning.
Ok so fine its easily kill-able with 4 marines, that's totally fine lets pretend we all agree that. So you have 1 free marine whilst 4 marines charge round the map chasing an onos, what about the rest of the alien team? What are they doing? Probably destroying your entire economy whilst you chase an onos... An onos mind you, if he draws you into a tight corridor can easily steam roll your 4 marines before they do enough damage to kill him.
The onos isnt the "end of the game" for the marines and an alien team shouldn't use their onos to suicidal base rush, but it gives the aliens the ability to control the entire marine team drawing them to one base whilst the rest of the team crush the second... In small games its like having 4 extra players... In larger games it has less effect but still if used well due to pubs having CONSIDERABLY less organisation will still give aliens are HUGE advantage at 6 mins.
Finally the: "What do aliens use to counter marines if onos is removed." This just doesn't cut it... We are not saying that if onos is removed it will be <i>fair</i> because currently I dont think it will. We are saying the onos NEEDS to be removed because it definately <b>isnt</b> fair. The onos is currently being used because of just how <b>un</b>-viable everything else on the alien tech tree is, that needs to be fixed as well and will need to be fixed even more so once early onos is removed.
I think I'm pretty through with this thread, but lets have one more go...
<!--quoteo(post=2015431:date=Nov 8 2012, 05:29 PM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Nov 8 2012, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015431"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wouldn't call killing 2 res towers in the first 5 minutes "doing really well", generally a 2 marine team is pretty effective at running around killing towers. That leaves about 5 guys to expand and base build. That's another 2 and 3 man team. Marines with good aim kill skulks pretty fast so I don't see how that's a problem. If you look at comp matches I've seen arc lock down the hive with 2 guys for a few minutes at a time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If aliens are playing smartly, they are usually content with only 2-3 RTs including starting RT. If aliens let marines to kill all of those, that is a serious imbalance skill-wise. Also, using Archaea as an example in this is just bad. Let me put it this way... Archaea has not lost almost any rounds in recent tournaments to other clans. They are really really good right now. That they can do something like that is a sign of them being good, not a proof of "marines can easily do this". Your argument is bad.
<!--quoteo(post=2015431:date=Nov 8 2012, 05:29 PM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Nov 8 2012, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015431"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An onos without carapace has a total of about 1900 damage they can take right? 600 of that is armor so against an lmg that's really more like 1200, so a real total of 2500. 4 full LMG mags will do 2000, that leaves 500 and a full pistol magazine does 250 x 4 people that's 1000. In my experience there's no way that you shouldn't at least empty 1 entire lmg magazine into an onos. And mind you that's level 0 weapons. So 4 guys should have no problem killing an onos especially if it's alone, and you give one of those guys a shotgun that's 170 per shot times 8 so about 1220 if he gets his whole magazine off. So realistically 2 shotguns and an lmg marine should be able to easily kill an onos without carapace. But yea that's on paper, it does take coordination to actually accomplish that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me re-iterate once more... The whole problem is not that 4 marines can kill an onos that fails. The problem is that the marines must keep 3 marines on defence just for that single onos and this leaves the rest of the alien team much more room to do what needs to be done. If you look at some of the more even competitive matchups you will notice the marines having to spend considerable time and effort just to keep any position against that onos. Also make note of the way marine map control is reduced and the way the onos is used.
<!--quoteo(post=2015431:date=Nov 8 2012, 05:29 PM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Nov 8 2012, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015431"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My point was having 1 or 2 early exos or even just 1 defending the base would make a big difference also, but no one does it cause turtling is the most loved marine strat.
Go ahead and play some pubs, I don't know why you wouldn't. The game is fun to me whether it's a comp match or pub match. You'll see there are a lot of six minute or less onos strats going on, and it doesn't always mean losing. And again those only work when the aliens aren't being pressured.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1 or 2 early exos do not make a big difference. You are paying a lot of extra for those exos (adv. armory, proto, upgrade, pres costs, 2nd cc earlier than necessary) and that leaves other, more useful areas of your tech plan less developed. Those exos are also very defensive and a hindrance, when you could actually have used more pressure and have forced the aliens on the defence. If you are succeeding with early exos, you would have succeeded with almost anything. The unupgraded exos area really really easy to take down, if the aliens have an inkling of tactics between them :(
I do play pub games also, but lately less and less. It is not that much fun when almost every round I play in I'm either comming or pub-stomping. There simply are too many new players around and the games are not that fun for them or me. I do occasionally make an effort - for the future of the game and the community - to teach players on the servers, but there is only so much time I can put into that. I'll be back to playing more when the situation improves and I don't get accused of cheats every third or so round :(
I think there is an underlying issue here that is not being addressed with a lot of these posts...
Why has the 6 minute Onos turned into the "go to" strategy?
-It's incredibly strong for that point in a game, and unless the person who takes the Onos is an idiot he won't die.
That's where everyone goes, but imo there is a second reason that is being undiscussed...
-The aliens don't have many other options right now unless the skulks dominate those first 6 minutes.
2 marines who know what they are doing with shotguns and have w1/a1 can either take out or make even a skilled fade run away without doing any serious damage.
Simply moving tres Onos eggs to 3 hives isn't the answer unless it goes hand and hand with some other changes to address the alien mid game.
<!--quoteo(post=2015456:date=Nov 8 2012, 05:55 PM:name=Schleppy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schleppy @ Nov 8 2012, 05:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015456"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think there is an underlying issue here that is not being addressed with a lot of these posts...
Why has the 6 minute Onos turned into the "go to" strategy?
-It's incredibly strong for that point in a game, and unless the person who takes the Onos is an idiot he won't die.
That's where everyone goes, but imo there is a second reason that is being undiscussed...
-The aliens don't have many other options right now unless the skulks dominate those first 6 minutes.
2 marines who know what they are doing with shotguns and have w1/a1 can either take out or make even a skilled fade run away without doing any serious damage.
Simply moving tres Onos eggs to 3 hives isn't the answer unless it goes hand and hand with some other changes to address the alien mid game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, there are other options, it is just that these options are not as good or reliable as the onos by a long shot. Upgrade chambers can be sniped, which hurts your economy significantly. Upgraded skulks and maybe lerks can do well against shottys, but it is not optimal. You can drop fade eggs, but even a mid-to-high skilled fade still needs either cara or blink to perform well and reliably. Also, fade egg with cara is 85 res, fade egg with blink is 80. Onos is just 75 res and outperforms either of those. The skulks lack of upgrades is not a problem at that stage of the game since they get to play against fewer marines and go for free RTs. Skulks get carapace right after the onos drop anyway, so the delay is not significant. The pres fades come several minutes later than the onos, and there is time for fade upgrades before that time. Thus, the early onos path is not actually a path but a speedboost along most other paths.
<!--quoteo(post=2015441:date=Nov 8 2012, 06:41 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 8 2012, 06:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015441"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Firstly, you are arguing it is easy to kill 2 res towers early game because you are playing against alien commanders who do not know how to command. I have said this so many times it is starting to hurt: Unless on Veil or Refinary the Alien team should next to always take the nearest hive, its res node and the one in between ONLY unless they are REALLY winning.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was gonna do a whole math problem about how long the minimum time is to get an onos egg with nothing but 3 towers, but that's just too much work.
<!--quoteo(post=2015441:date=Nov 8 2012, 06:41 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 8 2012, 06:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015441"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thus the Alien team will have 3 res nodes, one in each hive and one between both hives. If you are able as the marine team to constantly take these down... You are seriously winning.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You don't have to do it constantly, 1 time takes away 10 res they would have normally gotten and 10 res to re-drop it. That's roughly a 100 second setback.
<!--quoteo(post=2015441:date=Nov 8 2012, 06:41 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 8 2012, 06:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015441"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok so fine its easily kill-able with 4 marines, that's totally fine lets pretend we all agree that. So you have 1 free marine whilst 4 marines charge round the map chasing an onos, what about the rest of the alien team? What are they doing? Probably destroying your entire economy whilst you chase an onos... An onos mind you, if he draws you into a tight corridor can easily steam roll your 4 marines before they do enough damage to kill him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you're looking at a comp 6 on 6 game yea that's 1 marine running around, and also if you're looking at it as the rest of the marines had their thumbs up their ass for the first 5 or 6 minutes. Maybe comp games should be 8v8 to be more in line with most pub servers. I can definitely agree that with 6 people on the map an onos is a huge advantage. But the 1% of the community represented by comp teams really shouldn't dictate the rest of the game. This is where balance files should come into play to fix issues like that. I actually would have no qualms if there was a balance variable that increased onos egg spawn time or cost or hive requirements.
<!--quoteo(post=2015441:date=Nov 8 2012, 06:41 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 8 2012, 06:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015441"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The onos isnt the "end of the game" for the marines and an alien team shouldn't use their onos to suicidal base rush, but it gives the aliens the ability to control the entire marine team drawing them to one base whilst the rest of the team crush the second... In small games its like having 4 extra players... In larger games it has less effect but still if used well due to pubs having CONSIDERABLY less organisation will still give aliens are HUGE advantage at 6 mins.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In small games yea it's devastating, but when you have 7 people or more available it's not that huge of a gap.
<!--quoteo(post=2015441:date=Nov 8 2012, 06:41 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 8 2012, 06:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015441"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Finally the: "What do aliens use to counter marines if onos is removed." This just doesn't cut it... We are not saying that if onos is removed it will be <i>fair</i> because currently I dont think it will. We are saying the onos NEEDS to be removed because it definately <b>isnt</b> fair. The onos is currently being used because of just how <b>un</b>-viable everything else on the alien tech tree is, that needs to be fixed as well and will need to be fixed even more so once early onos is removed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Come up with a better solution than, marines should be better because aliens suck anyway.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2015068:date=Nov 8 2012, 07:15 AM:name=MinstrelJCF)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MinstrelJCF @ Nov 8 2012, 07:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015068"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In competitive NS2 the greatest challenge is finding another team to play. And getting playable fps obviously.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Although it was a problem in the beta, this isn't entirely true anymore. With over 20 European teams already signed up for the first season of ENSL, and more coming, there's a reasonable amount of teams to play against. It might be a bigger problem in the US though, which is still lacking a central community organization and teams.
<!--quoteo(post=2015093:date=Nov 8 2012, 01:40 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Nov 8 2012, 01:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015093"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really wish people wouldn't focus on public vs competitive players.
Pub play strategies will follow competitive play strategies. The onos in pub play isn't much different despite the higher player numbers because of the lower amount of coordination. It's still an unfair and unfun strategy for marines to face. The fact that you may not have faced the super fast onos drops in pubs is not evidence that it is balanced. I guarantee you that if this goes unchanged then you will see it more and more frequently as the masses learn how powerful it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, in all of the competitive games I have followed, this is exactly how it goes. Sure, the casual scene plays very differently from the competitive scene early in a game's life (even more so for smaller games like this), but eventually the casual scene will try to follow the competitive format, even if it is not quite up to speed with the current meta. In balancing, the first objective, of course, is to make it fun, but then it should be balanced for serious play. The casual scene will follow as long as it is still fun.
Regarding tres onos drops, would a simple increase on eggs used with tres be a good idea? Onos could cost 100 tres vs 75 pres. That would still enable them to be spammed late game to close a game. Should such a rule also be applied to other alien life forms and even marines?
If you wanted to restrict it to 3 hives, then that might be too much. Perhaps make a tres onos drop require 3 hives but a pres onos only require 2 hives?
As it currently stands, competitive ns2 is getting very stale to watch because of early onos drops and I imagine it's just as boring for the players.
It used to be in NS1 that early onos didn't have a charge ability (until 3 hives) like it does now as a passive. Why not just put that back as a third (or second) hive upgrade and maybe drop their overall speed a tiny amount?
As it stands now, early game onos can come in, whack a few marines, and sprint out without any worries of getting killed even if he steps on a few mines (if the marines even have those researched).
I agree with a lot of the other posters in this thread that say the alien balance issue is much more complex than "FIX ONOS". Considering all the things that were removed from aliens between NS2 and NS1, the end result of the 6 minute onos rush should be a surprise to NO ONE.
<!--quoteo(post=2015451:date=Nov 8 2012, 06:52 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Nov 8 2012, 06:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015451"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If aliens are playing smartly, they are usually content with only 2-3 RTs including starting RT. If aliens let marines to kill all of those, that is a serious imbalance skill-wise. Also, using Archaea as an example in this is just bad. Let me put it this way... Archaea has not lost almost any rounds in recent tournaments to other clans. They are really really good right now. That they can do something like that is a sign of them being good, not a proof of "marines can easily do this". Your argument is bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh yea? Cause my argument is that even the best team lost their early onos and lost a round.
If you are still arguing that early Onos is not broken, you are wasting your time and your words mean nothing. Convincing you is not the problem. It is a foregone conclusion that EVERYONE is aware of. The question is how to fix it, and when it will be fixed. Please stop arguing over whether or not this is a problem.
I personally want the T-Res Onos drop to be tied to a 3rd hive. As has already been pointed out, the Onos is the unit requiring the LEAST amount of skill to play. If it was tied to a 3rd hive, it would then become a siege unit to break turtling marine teams when games are all but won and dragging out. If this was done while simultaneously buffing the fade (or nerfing the shotgun lol) then I think it would greatly increase the skillfulness and fun tactics available in the game.
If the pres model is changed, I would say that the Alien Comm should only be able to drop eggs for lifeforms that have already entered the field through pres. The reason I say the pres model should be changed is because otherwise, you just have one Skulk idle until he has 75 res, then have him go Onos as soon as possible while dropping a Comm one. So you have at least two Cara Onos hit the field at the same time, and 6 minute Onos becomes 10 minute 'Bend Over' Oni. It wouldn't work in comp matches because you can't afford to be down a man, but it's fine in pub games. Just boring.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
in my opinion it would be best to completely get rid of that feature (dropping eggs or equipment)... team res was never supposed to be what it currently is (a source for early life forms). there should be other mechanics in place which could allow that (to a lesser degree).
<!--quoteo(post=2015741:date=Nov 8 2012, 12:33 PM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Nov 8 2012, 12:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015741"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->in my opinion it would be best to completely get rid of that feature (dropping eggs or equipment)... team res was never supposed to be what it currently is (a source for early life forms). there should be other mechanics in place which could allow that (to a lesser degree).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any chance that we can poke and ask if this issue will be addressed in any way in 229?
Its fine where it is. Buff it slightly its good good and nerf it slightly and its not good enough. THe onos is fine and need either the former or the latter
The issue is not buffs on armor or anything. Early onos is only because you dont have to spend 40 res researching a Alien prototype lab, and another 30 on Exos, and another 30 on Dual Exos. This is 100 resources required to get dual exos, compared to 0 resources required for Aliens to get Onos. Marines need cheaper stuff, or the whole resource system needs to be revisited.
Comments
Do I think people who started playing on the release date have opinions as well crafted and informed as those with more experience? HELL NO. But once you put 20 hours into the game I think you've been playing long enough to know when something is clearly just wrong. Like the 6 minute Onos.. no one is having fun when that happens. The Onii aren't being challenged and have everything on ez-mode, the marines are basically ######, and everyone ends the game feeling unsatisfied. Honestly, I think that the first time that happens people probably know it's wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not THAT deep a game, beyond map specific and situational strategies - i.e. what to do at x location in y scenario, when you have z lifeforms around at locations a, b and c. But I guess the same can be said for most games.
I'd argue that as long as it's still being worked on, and development being tweaked, that there's still stuff to learn. The only difference I see between beta people and release people is that beta people know the maps better (apart from refinery). As for strategy... well that changed pretty much every build in the beta. Something that used to be effective can sometimes no longer be effective at all
But its a public forum!
Also remember this is a game, not astrophysics. Dont get pretentious until you have something of worth to be pretentious about.
Pub play strategies will follow competitive play strategies. The onos in pub play isn't much different despite the higher player numbers because of the lower amount of coordination. It's still an unfair and unfun strategy for marines to face. The fact that you may not have faced the super fast onos drops in pubs is not evidence that it is balanced. I guarantee you that if this goes unchanged then you will see it more and more frequently as the masses learn how powerful it is.
Pub play strategies will follow competitive play strategies. The onos in pub play isn't much different despite the higher player numbers because of the lower amount of coordination. It's still an unfair and unfun strategy for marines to face. The fact that you may not have faced the super fast onos drops in pubs is not evidence that it is balanced. I guarantee you that if this goes unchanged then you will see it more and more frequently as the masses learn how powerful it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me be clear: I hate the early Onos drop. I honestly think Onos should be locked to hive 3, and used only as a siege device. I think Fades, Lerks, and Skulks should be what wins you the games, Onos should be the closer. As it is now, what wins you games is "more Onos, faster!"
I agree. I think there are more solutions than to just restrict it to hive 3, but something needs to be done.
We're not talking about onos beating turret spamming pubs. Instead, we're posting about how the onos is beating EVERYTHING except when marines are able to win before the onos comes out, or shortly there after, by a) killing a hive or b) killing a lot of RTs. Realistically, assuming relatively similar skill levels and execution, neither a) nor b) should be happening.
Also, you need a second hive to drop the onos egg. If aliens are losing 2/3 of their RTs in the first couple minutes, then I don't think this matters. If your answer to counter onos is basically "just win the game" then we're kind of talking past each other at this point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please by all means tell me where I'm wrong about the mechanics, and the "general concensus" is coming from people who are very new and think turtling should be the answer to everything.
How does losing 2 of 3 res towers NOT stop them from getting an onos out in 6 minutes or less? That second hive costs 40 res, 10 per harvester, and that puts you at -10 not including cysts. And if you want that onos to be at all effective you need carapace and celerity or adrenaline. I watched arc play exertus, exertus beat arc when they used the early onos strat and they got it out in like 4 1/2 minutes. I'm not asking for your opinion, I'm telling you the fact, early onos doesn't mean the end of the game. Will it overwhelm some pub players, hell yea it will. Is it possible stop it, yes completely. If you don't keep pressure on the other team and they get 2 hives and 3 or 4 res towers for 6 minutes, you will have a hard time. Just like if you give marines the same thing, they end up with upgrades and exos.
Just to prove a point I did a test server where I ran around building 4 rt's, a comm chair, an upgraded armory, observatory, and a prototype lab. Took me 7 minutes to do all that, research exos, and have 1 on the field. And if I wasn't alone jumping in and out of the chair, it would have taken less time. That's pretty comparable to an early onos, but no one is going to complain about that because no one does it. Early onos puts all your res into one guy, and you have to hope he doesn't die and it buys you enough time to take the rest of the map.
I'm sure there were a few comp games that an early onos made a big difference, but that just sounds like you lost and you're mad about it. And I'm sure you only care about comp games, but in the pub games where the other 99% of are, an early onos doesn't always win. And if you don't believe it play some more games. I guarantee you, you'll find early onos can be countered easily if the team works together.
How does losing 2 of 3 res towers NOT stop them from getting an onos out in 6 minutes or less? That second hive costs 40 res, 10 per harvester, and that puts you at -10 not including cysts. And if you want that onos to be at all effective you need carapace and celerity or adrenaline. I watched arc play exertus, exertus beat arc when they used the early onos strat and they got it out in like 4 1/2 minutes. I'm not asking for your opinion, I'm telling you the fact, early onos doesn't mean the end of the game. Will it overwhelm some pub players, hell yea it will. Is it possible stop it, yes completely. If you don't keep pressure on the other team and they get 2 hives and 3 or 4 res towers for 6 minutes, you will have a hard time. Just like if you give marines the same thing, they end up with upgrades and exos.
Just to prove a point I did a test server where I ran around building 4 rt's, a comm chair, an upgraded armory, observatory, and a prototype lab. Took me 7 minutes to do all that, research exos, and have 1 on the field. And if I wasn't alone jumping in and out of the chair, it would have taken less time. That's pretty comparable to an early onos, but no one is going to complain about that because no one does it. Early onos puts all your res into one guy, and you have to hope he doesn't die and it buys you enough time to take the rest of the map.
I'm sure there were a few comp games that an early onos made a big difference, but that just sounds like you lost and you're mad about it. And I'm sure you only care about comp games, but in the pub games where the other 99% of are, an early onos doesn't always win. And if you don't believe it play some more games. I guarantee you, you'll find early onos can be countered easily if the team works together.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dunno why you are defending this ######. It seriously makes the game garbage.
Also the ease of using the Onos vs beating the strategy is completely out of sync. Especially in pub games.
It's like your defending this ###### for no reason. Because it is beatable, doesn't mean it is healthy for the game. It doesn't mean it is balanced. It also limits strategy. It is clear and cut what the best option is, and that is an Onos rush.
The game shouldn't revolve around it. Don't know what else to say..
i don't think there is a huge difference between carapace --> onos and onos --> carapace
it's 45 res slower but early carapace seems fine
replace carapace with whatever up you want
You do realize that if you can take down 2 or 3 out of the alien teams' 2 or 3 res towers during the first 4-5 minutes, you are doing really really really well? Even keeping the aliens to 2 rts on average takes some pretty good pressure. Balancing something on the assumption that you need to steamroll someone in the first few minutes just to stay in the game a few minutes after 6min mark is - how can I put this politely - stupid. Also, effective onos does not need any of the upgrades you listed. None at all, since the marines will be under-equipped and under-upgraded due to the onos being really early. They do benefit from a gorge though, and carapace is extremely good for the onoses. It is usual to see onos come first and then get carapace 1-2 minutes later.
Since you go on and use our teams plays as examples, maybe you might give my arguments some credit too. One can only hope. The thing is, you are correct in saying the onos itself is counterable (although this is difficult and always a bit touch-and-go). The onos counters however are really manpower-intensive, which means that the aliens can basically use just the onos to tie down half of the marine team and forces marines to defend 1-2 chokepoints. You can for instance have a comm as gorge doing part-time onos push healing, onos, 2-3 skulks eating marine RTs at all times and then have 1-2 skulks running in behind the onos, with the onos tanking shots and mines. Or you can just use the onos as a meat shield and push a skulk rush in without the skulks taking shots when closing in. What this boils down to, even an expertly countered onos will offer an advantage so significant that the choice to go with the 6 min onos strategy is a no-brainer. It is currently too good and too easy to pull off, and this is making the gameplay stagnant. Can it be countered? Sure. Is it too powerful? Yes, but not all that much. Is it too good compared to other alien strategies? Absolutely.
<!--quoteo(post=2015143:date=Nov 8 2012, 10:58 AM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Nov 8 2012, 10:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015143"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just to prove a point I did a test server where I ran around building 4 rt's, a comm chair, an upgraded armory, observatory, and a prototype lab. Took me 7 minutes to do all that, research exos, and have 1 on the field. And if I wasn't alone jumping in and out of the chair, it would have taken less time. That's pretty comparable to an early onos, but no one is going to complain about that because no one does it. Early onos puts all your res into one guy, and you have to hope he doesn't die and it buys you enough time to take the rest of the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What was that point you wanted to make, exactly? You can actually get jets or exos out much faster. The trick is to upgrade an armory right of the bat, then get the 2nd chair up somewhere and drop the proto lab. Once you have the proto up, you sell the adv. armory and buy the research. What you now have is early jets or exos without upgrades and with limited tools. We have experimented with early jet rushes and they were really good some 20 patches back, when jetpacks were better. Now other paths offer way more advantages. We also have recently experimented with early exos and that strategy is fail. Exos start staying alive at level 2 armour. Even level 1 armour just isn't enough on exos, and you end up losing your investments really easily. The early exos are NOT a strategy even lose to the level of the 6 min onoses, or close to almost any marine strat for that matter. They are better than turret-spam though... This get-early-exos piece of "brilliant" strategy gets from time to time thrown into discussions by people who actually have not tried using it in an even match and who are just throwing around baseless theories and hoping something sticks. Let me say it once more: It is not a useful strategy.
<!--quoteo(post=2015143:date=Nov 8 2012, 10:58 AM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Nov 8 2012, 10:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015143"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sure there were a few comp games that an early onos made a big difference, but that just sounds like you lost and you're mad about it. And I'm sure you only care about comp games, but in the pub games where the other 99% of are, an early onos doesn't always win. And if you don't believe it play some more games. I guarantee you, you'll find early onos can be countered easily if the team works together.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sure there are maybe 90% of current comp games where that early onos made a big difference. Do we actually have to go to publics and start doing that 6 min onos and stream it for it to be recognized as a problem? That the problem is not as bad on publics (as people don't want to cheese every round or don't know how) doesn't mean it isn't a genuine problem.
This is the best way to get the dev team out of their coma, ruin the game for as many people as possible using their poorly designed mechanics, works even better in games with smaller communities. I do the onos rush pretty much every round I comm a pub.
Step 1: Reduce Onos armor by 50% or so.
Step 2: Give Onos a 2 hive upgrade (thick hide) which increases armor to its present value. 25-30 res cost.
Step 3: Profit?
Also the ease of using the Onos vs beating the strategy is completely out of sync. Especially in pub games.
It's like your defending this ###### for no reason. Because it is beatable, doesn't mean it is healthy for the game. It doesn't mean it is balanced. It also limits strategy. It is clear and cut what the best option is, and that is an Onos rush.
The game shouldn't revolve around it. Don't know what else to say..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And without an onos the plan to counter a marine turtle is what now?
<!--quoteo(post=2015266:date=Nov 8 2012, 03:27 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Nov 8 2012, 03:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You do realize that if you can take down 2 or 3 out of the alien teams' 2 or 3 res towers during the first 4-5 minutes, you are doing really really really well? Even keeping the aliens to 2 rts on average takes some pretty good pressure. Balancing something on the assumption that you need to steamroll someone in the first few minutes just to stay in the game a few minutes after 6min mark is - how can I put this politely - stupid. Also, effective onos does not need any of the upgrades you listed. None at all, since the marines will be under-equipped and under-upgraded due to the onos being really early. They do benefit from a gorge though, and carapace is extremely good for the onoses. It is usual to see onos come first and then get carapace 1-2 minutes later.
Since you go on and use our teams plays as examples, maybe you might give my arguments some credit too. One can only hope. The thing is, you are correct in saying the onos itself is counterable (although this is difficult and always a bit touch-and-go). The onos counters however are really manpower-intensive, which means that the aliens can basically use just the onos to tie down half of the marine team and forces marines to defend 1-2 chokepoints.
What was that point you wanted to make, exactly?
I'm sure there are maybe 90% of current comp games where that early onos made a big difference. Do we actually have to go to publics and start doing that 6 min onos and stream it for it to be recognized as a problem? That the problem is not as bad on publics (as people don't want to cheese every round or don't know how) doesn't mean it isn't a genuine problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't call killing 2 res towers in the first 5 minutes "doing really well", generally a 2 marine team is pretty effective at running around killing towers. That leaves about 5 guys to expand and base build. That's another 2 and 3 man team. Marines with good aim kill skulks pretty fast so I don't see how that's a problem. If you look at comp matches I've seen arc lock down the hive with 2 guys for a few minutes at a time.
An onos without carapace has a total of about 1900 damage they can take right? 600 of that is armor so against an lmg that's really more like 1200, so a real total of 2500. 4 full LMG mags will do 2000, that leaves 500 and a full pistol magazine does 250 x 4 people that's 1000. In my experience there's no way that you shouldn't at least empty 1 entire lmg magazine into an onos. And mind you that's level 0 weapons. So 4 guys should have no problem killing an onos especially if it's alone, and you give one of those guys a shotgun that's 170 per shot times 8 so about 1220 if he gets his whole magazine off. So realistically 2 shotguns and an lmg marine should be able to easily kill an onos without carapace. But yea that's on paper, it does take coordination to actually accomplish that.
My point was having 1 or 2 early exos or even just 1 defending the base would make a big difference also, but no one does it cause turtling is the most loved marine strat.
Go ahead and play some pubs, I don't know why you wouldn't. The game is fun to me whether it's a comp match or pub match. You'll see there are a lot of six minute or less onos strats going on, and it doesn't always mean losing. And again those only work when the aliens aren't being pressured.
An onos without carapace has a total of about 1900 damage they can take right? 600 of that is armor so against an lmg that's really more like 1200, so a real total of 2500. 4 full LMG mags will do 2000, that leaves 500 and a full pistol magazine does 250 x 4 people that's 1000. In my experience there's no way that you shouldn't at least empty 1 entire lmg magazine into an onos. And mind you that's level 0 weapons. So 4 guys should have no problem killing an onos especially if it's alone, and you give one of those guys a shotgun that's 170 per shot times 8 so about 1220 if he gets his whole magazine off. So realistically 2 shotguns and an lmg marine should be able to easily kill an onos without carapace. But yea that's on paper, it does take coordination to actually accomplish that.
My point was having 1 or 2 early exos or even just 1 defending the base would make a big difference also, but no one does it cause turtling is the most loved marine strat.
Go ahead and play some pubs, I don't know why you wouldn't. The game is fun to me whether it's a comp match or pub match. You'll see there are a lot of six minute or less onos strats going on, and it doesn't always mean losing. And again those only work when the aliens aren't being pressured.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly, you are arguing it is easy to kill 2 res towers early game because you are playing against alien commanders who do not know how to command. I have said this so many times it is starting to hurt: Unless on Veil or Refinary the Alien team should next to always take the nearest hive, its res node and the one in between ONLY unless they are REALLY winning.
Thus the Alien team will have 3 res nodes, one in each hive and one between both hives. If you are able as the marine team to constantly take these down... You are seriously winning.
Ok so fine its easily kill-able with 4 marines, that's totally fine lets pretend we all agree that.
So you have 1 free marine whilst 4 marines charge round the map chasing an onos, what about the rest of the alien team? What are they doing? Probably destroying your entire economy whilst you chase an onos... An onos mind you, if he draws you into a tight corridor can easily steam roll your 4 marines before they do enough damage to kill him.
The onos isnt the "end of the game" for the marines and an alien team shouldn't use their onos to suicidal base rush, but it gives the aliens the ability to control the entire marine team drawing them to one base whilst the rest of the team crush the second... In small games its like having 4 extra players... In larger games it has less effect but still if used well due to pubs having CONSIDERABLY less organisation will still give aliens are HUGE advantage at 6 mins.
Finally the: "What do aliens use to counter marines if onos is removed."
This just doesn't cut it... We are not saying that if onos is removed it will be <i>fair</i> because currently I dont think it will.
We are saying the onos NEEDS to be removed because it definately <b>isnt</b> fair.
The onos is currently being used because of just how <b>un</b>-viable everything else on the alien tech tree is, that needs to be fixed as well and will need to be fixed even more so once early onos is removed.
<!--quoteo(post=2015431:date=Nov 8 2012, 05:29 PM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Nov 8 2012, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015431"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wouldn't call killing 2 res towers in the first 5 minutes "doing really well", generally a 2 marine team is pretty effective at running around killing towers. That leaves about 5 guys to expand and base build. That's another 2 and 3 man team. Marines with good aim kill skulks pretty fast so I don't see how that's a problem. If you look at comp matches I've seen arc lock down the hive with 2 guys for a few minutes at a time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If aliens are playing smartly, they are usually content with only 2-3 RTs including starting RT. If aliens let marines to kill all of those, that is a serious imbalance skill-wise. Also, using Archaea as an example in this is just bad. Let me put it this way... Archaea has not lost almost any rounds in recent tournaments to other clans. They are really really good right now. That they can do something like that is a sign of them being good, not a proof of "marines can easily do this". Your argument is bad.
<!--quoteo(post=2015431:date=Nov 8 2012, 05:29 PM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Nov 8 2012, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015431"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An onos without carapace has a total of about 1900 damage they can take right? 600 of that is armor so against an lmg that's really more like 1200, so a real total of 2500. 4 full LMG mags will do 2000, that leaves 500 and a full pistol magazine does 250 x 4 people that's 1000. In my experience there's no way that you shouldn't at least empty 1 entire lmg magazine into an onos. And mind you that's level 0 weapons. So 4 guys should have no problem killing an onos especially if it's alone, and you give one of those guys a shotgun that's 170 per shot times 8 so about 1220 if he gets his whole magazine off. So realistically 2 shotguns and an lmg marine should be able to easily kill an onos without carapace. But yea that's on paper, it does take coordination to actually accomplish that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me re-iterate once more... The whole problem is not that 4 marines can kill an onos that fails. The problem is that the marines must keep 3 marines on defence just for that single onos and this leaves the rest of the alien team much more room to do what needs to be done. If you look at some of the more even competitive matchups you will notice the marines having to spend considerable time and effort just to keep any position against that onos. Also make note of the way marine map control is reduced and the way the onos is used.
<!--quoteo(post=2015431:date=Nov 8 2012, 05:29 PM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Nov 8 2012, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015431"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My point was having 1 or 2 early exos or even just 1 defending the base would make a big difference also, but no one does it cause turtling is the most loved marine strat.
Go ahead and play some pubs, I don't know why you wouldn't. The game is fun to me whether it's a comp match or pub match. You'll see there are a lot of six minute or less onos strats going on, and it doesn't always mean losing. And again those only work when the aliens aren't being pressured.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1 or 2 early exos do not make a big difference. You are paying a lot of extra for those exos (adv. armory, proto, upgrade, pres costs, 2nd cc earlier than necessary) and that leaves other, more useful areas of your tech plan less developed. Those exos are also very defensive and a hindrance, when you could actually have used more pressure and have forced the aliens on the defence. If you are succeeding with early exos, you would have succeeded with almost anything. The unupgraded exos area really really easy to take down, if the aliens have an inkling of tactics between them :(
I do play pub games also, but lately less and less. It is not that much fun when almost every round I play in I'm either comming or pub-stomping. There simply are too many new players around and the games are not that fun for them or me. I do occasionally make an effort - for the future of the game and the community - to teach players on the servers, but there is only so much time I can put into that. I'll be back to playing more when the situation improves and I don't get accused of cheats every third or so round :(
Why has the 6 minute Onos turned into the "go to" strategy?
-It's incredibly strong for that point in a game, and unless the person who takes the Onos is an idiot he won't die.
That's where everyone goes, but imo there is a second reason that is being undiscussed...
-The aliens don't have many other options right now unless the skulks dominate those first 6 minutes.
2 marines who know what they are doing with shotguns and have w1/a1 can either take out or make even a skilled fade run away without doing any serious damage.
Simply moving tres Onos eggs to 3 hives isn't the answer unless it goes hand and hand with some other changes to address the alien mid game.
Why has the 6 minute Onos turned into the "go to" strategy?
-It's incredibly strong for that point in a game, and unless the person who takes the Onos is an idiot he won't die.
That's where everyone goes, but imo there is a second reason that is being undiscussed...
-The aliens don't have many other options right now unless the skulks dominate those first 6 minutes.
2 marines who know what they are doing with shotguns and have w1/a1 can either take out or make even a skilled fade run away without doing any serious damage.
Simply moving tres Onos eggs to 3 hives isn't the answer unless it goes hand and hand with some other changes to address the alien mid game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, there are other options, it is just that these options are not as good or reliable as the onos by a long shot. Upgrade chambers can be sniped, which hurts your economy significantly. Upgraded skulks and maybe lerks can do well against shottys, but it is not optimal. You can drop fade eggs, but even a mid-to-high skilled fade still needs either cara or blink to perform well and reliably. Also, fade egg with cara is 85 res, fade egg with blink is 80. Onos is just 75 res and outperforms either of those. The skulks lack of upgrades is not a problem at that stage of the game since they get to play against fewer marines and go for free RTs. Skulks get carapace right after the onos drop anyway, so the delay is not significant. The pres fades come several minutes later than the onos, and there is time for fade upgrades before that time. Thus, the early onos path is not actually a path but a speedboost along most other paths.
I was gonna do a whole math problem about how long the minimum time is to get an onos egg with nothing but 3 towers, but that's just too much work.
<!--quoteo(post=2015441:date=Nov 8 2012, 06:41 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 8 2012, 06:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015441"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thus the Alien team will have 3 res nodes, one in each hive and one between both hives. If you are able as the marine team to constantly take these down... You are seriously winning.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't have to do it constantly, 1 time takes away 10 res they would have normally gotten and 10 res to re-drop it. That's roughly a 100 second setback.
<!--quoteo(post=2015441:date=Nov 8 2012, 06:41 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 8 2012, 06:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015441"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok so fine its easily kill-able with 4 marines, that's totally fine lets pretend we all agree that.
So you have 1 free marine whilst 4 marines charge round the map chasing an onos, what about the rest of the alien team? What are they doing? Probably destroying your entire economy whilst you chase an onos... An onos mind you, if he draws you into a tight corridor can easily steam roll your 4 marines before they do enough damage to kill him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're looking at a comp 6 on 6 game yea that's 1 marine running around, and also if you're looking at it as the rest of the marines had their thumbs up their ass for the first 5 or 6 minutes. Maybe comp games should be 8v8 to be more in line with most pub servers. I can definitely agree that with 6 people on the map an onos is a huge advantage. But the 1% of the community represented by comp teams really shouldn't dictate the rest of the game. This is where balance files should come into play to fix issues like that. I actually would have no qualms if there was a balance variable that increased onos egg spawn time or cost or hive requirements.
<!--quoteo(post=2015441:date=Nov 8 2012, 06:41 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 8 2012, 06:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015441"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The onos isnt the "end of the game" for the marines and an alien team shouldn't use their onos to suicidal base rush, but it gives the aliens the ability to control the entire marine team drawing them to one base whilst the rest of the team crush the second... In small games its like having 4 extra players... In larger games it has less effect but still if used well due to pubs having CONSIDERABLY less organisation will still give aliens are HUGE advantage at 6 mins.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In small games yea it's devastating, but when you have 7 people or more available it's not that huge of a gap.
<!--quoteo(post=2015441:date=Nov 8 2012, 06:41 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 8 2012, 06:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015441"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Finally the: "What do aliens use to counter marines if onos is removed."
This just doesn't cut it... We are not saying that if onos is removed it will be <i>fair</i> because currently I dont think it will.
We are saying the onos NEEDS to be removed because it definately <b>isnt</b> fair.
The onos is currently being used because of just how <b>un</b>-viable everything else on the alien tech tree is, that needs to be fixed as well and will need to be fixed even more so once early onos is removed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Come up with a better solution than, marines should be better because aliens suck anyway.
Although it was a problem in the beta, this isn't entirely true anymore. With over 20 European teams already signed up for the first season of ENSL, and more coming, there's a reasonable amount of teams to play against. It might be a bigger problem in the US though, which is still lacking a central community organization and teams.
Pub play strategies will follow competitive play strategies. The onos in pub play isn't much different despite the higher player numbers because of the lower amount of coordination. It's still an unfair and unfun strategy for marines to face. The fact that you may not have faced the super fast onos drops in pubs is not evidence that it is balanced. I guarantee you that if this goes unchanged then you will see it more and more frequently as the masses learn how powerful it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, in all of the competitive games I have followed, this is exactly how it goes. Sure, the casual scene plays very differently from the competitive scene early in a game's life (even more so for smaller games like this), but eventually the casual scene will try to follow the competitive format, even if it is not quite up to speed with the current meta. In balancing, the first objective, of course, is to make it fun, but then it should be balanced for serious play. The casual scene will follow as long as it is still fun.
Regarding tres onos drops, would a simple increase on eggs used with tres be a good idea? Onos could cost 100 tres vs 75 pres. That would still enable them to be spammed late game to close a game. Should such a rule also be applied to other alien life forms and even marines?
If you wanted to restrict it to 3 hives, then that might be too much. Perhaps make a tres onos drop require 3 hives but a pres onos only require 2 hives?
As it currently stands, competitive ns2 is getting very stale to watch because of early onos drops and I imagine it's just as boring for the players.
As it stands now, early game onos can come in, whack a few marines, and sprint out without any worries of getting killed even if he steps on a few mines (if the marines even have those researched).
I agree with a lot of the other posters in this thread that say the alien balance issue is much more complex than "FIX ONOS". Considering all the things that were removed from aliens between NS2 and NS1, the end result of the 6 minute onos rush should be a surprise to NO ONE.
Oh yea? Cause my argument is that even the best team lost their early onos and lost a round.
I personally want the T-Res Onos drop to be tied to a 3rd hive. As has already been pointed out, the Onos is the unit requiring the LEAST amount of skill to play. If it was tied to a 3rd hive, it would then become a siege unit to break turtling marine teams when games are all but won and dragging out. If this was done while simultaneously buffing the fade (or nerfing the shotgun lol) then I think it would greatly increase the skillfulness and fun tactics available in the game.
Any chance that we can poke and ask if this issue will be addressed in any way in 229?