Xenocide
minos_
Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165722Members
Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165722Members
I've been playing around with Xenocide over the last few days, and can't help but feel incredibly disappointed in it. It seems like a total waste of an ability, an energy sink for the alien comm while he/she is waiting for their four oni to break through the marine turtle. I haven't actually seen anyone but myself use it, and while I don't think the concept of it is flawed, the execution is horrible.
It's a tier three ability, which means it should be more useful than leap- more useful meaning increasing the skulk's combat effectiveness. This isn't even remotely true- leap allows skulks to close and evade quickly, allowing them to deal damage, ambush more effectively, and escape unwinnable situations. One would think that to compensate for a skulk choosing not to bite his/her target and removing him/herself from combat Xenocide should have some impressive killing power. Instead, xeno against an a0 marine at point blank is not enough for lethal (200 damage, light type- so 120 for armour, leaving the marine with 80 health.). At a1, xeno doesn't even deal any health damage.
So presumably, xeno has been balanced for use after a skulk has chewed down most of the armour from a marine. But once you're already engaged your target, the whole point of the blast is negated, because you can bite 2-3 times while Xeno charges, doing more damage than the explosion would have anyway and not throwing away your life in the process. Even the blast radius isn't that useful, since marines tend to stay far enough from one another that they can cover each other from short-middle distance where it is easiest to kill skulks. It might not be so bad if the damage type were normal instead of light, since landing a perfect explosion is fairly unlikely, and by the time an alien team gets xeno on the field marines are almost certain to have a3, which means they still won't die in one hit. At least if xeno did normal damage it could have a niche role as an early surprise tactic against underarmoured marines, or for skulks to mass against exos.
It's a tier three ability, which means it should be more useful than leap- more useful meaning increasing the skulk's combat effectiveness. This isn't even remotely true- leap allows skulks to close and evade quickly, allowing them to deal damage, ambush more effectively, and escape unwinnable situations. One would think that to compensate for a skulk choosing not to bite his/her target and removing him/herself from combat Xenocide should have some impressive killing power. Instead, xeno against an a0 marine at point blank is not enough for lethal (200 damage, light type- so 120 for armour, leaving the marine with 80 health.). At a1, xeno doesn't even deal any health damage.
So presumably, xeno has been balanced for use after a skulk has chewed down most of the armour from a marine. But once you're already engaged your target, the whole point of the blast is negated, because you can bite 2-3 times while Xeno charges, doing more damage than the explosion would have anyway and not throwing away your life in the process. Even the blast radius isn't that useful, since marines tend to stay far enough from one another that they can cover each other from short-middle distance where it is easiest to kill skulks. It might not be so bad if the damage type were normal instead of light, since landing a perfect explosion is fairly unlikely, and by the time an alien team gets xeno on the field marines are almost certain to have a3, which means they still won't die in one hit. At least if xeno did normal damage it could have a niche role as an early surprise tactic against underarmoured marines, or for skulks to mass against exos.
Comments
Few skulks run in with xeno, they all explode taking down few buildings, instead of scratching the paint like now.
So maybe, make it's power to equal of the 3-4 bile bombs (leaving initial burst to lifeforms)?
EDIT:
I forgot,
Respawning should be tweaked if someone used a xenocide.
Either he respawns immediately or he do gain pres while dead.
I have screenshots somewhere of me xenoing entire squads at once.
/nostalgia
EDIT: OH I FOUND SOME!!
<a href="http://www.tinyuploads.com/images/N8Y75O.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.tinyuploads.com/images/N8Y75O.jpg</a>
<i>Quad-kill...not bad. But we can do better...</i>
<a href="http://www.tinyuploads.com/images/Ox7gMa.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.tinyuploads.com/images/Ox7gMa.jpg</a>
<i>Is that a Quintuple Xeno kill?</i>
Yes, yes it is.
(edit is there a way to get the images to display directly?)
Xenocide sucks because you have to die. You don't have to die normally. You have to willingly die. It would be an improvement if it merely proc'd on a natural death, but it <i>forces you</i> to die. Replacing it as an on-death effect on the Marines allows Aliens to stay alive (something they desperately need to do, especially high-res classes) with the same effect of taking out multiple Marines. Just balance the expiration so that you have to really dig in deep to cause it to happen, taking risks to keep it applied and to make it proc, instead of merely walking in, hitting three Marines, and then walking away for a year for it happen eventually.
I again refer you to my previous post :D :D :D :D :D :D Aw hell yeah.
On a 100 slot server...
I agree with the increased structural damage concept - or alternatively it could cover all those affected with bits of skulk-gib, impairing vision!
Spores + Xenocide is pretty much GG all day. . .
I've never seen a marine team win after this was on the field
Even without spores though Xeno is a serious heavy hitter with a huge range and dealing around 170 to anything right next to you
<i>(That's Armor0 and Armor1 Marines dieing instantly)</i>
Xenocide also doesn't cost any energy to activate making it so you can have 2 adrenaline skulks leap around the room like mad men to drain all the ammo of marines before blowing up and letting all the other lifeforms clean up
In NS1, when you activated xeno, you had a couple seconds before you exploded, just like you do now.
However, you could switch weapons and bite. This lead to massive damage output, when you xeno, lept, bit a marine once or twice and then exploded.
Now if you switch to bite it cancels the xeno.
How? Maybe you first increase the charge time and decrease the inital damage. Than you can increase the damage and AOE xeno does with every bite you get in while xeno is charging. This way it would need skill to be devastating.
after getting hit by a 200 (light) damage xenocide, a marine with 100 hp & 90 armor would be hit down to 60 hp (losing 1/5th of 200) 40 armor (losing 4/5th of 200/4). if this is correct, then a marine with base 30 armor would die in a single hit...
xenocide has more damage than a mine, and radius is slightly greater than a mine. it's cheaper than a mine, plus it's mobile. however, due to the sacrifice alone it's a very situational ability and therefore very difficult to use effectively... if nothing else then it gives the marine/s something else to think about, especially if they're clumped up.
due to the complexity and situational nature, i feel it's only fair that you give it more time before bashing it's effectiveness... i mean, even marine mines are incredibly rare on pub servers but they're GODLIKE both in terms of fun and defense because they protect your 40-50 resource staging area when there's noone back to defend.
imagine the effect on defending a hive from a group of marines if you wiped and only have enough resources for skulks and gorge. xenocide could totally turn the tide in your favour. on the other hand it would be kinda stupid to xenocide in the enemy base, because they're standing right next to an armory or IP.
am i missing something?
i tried xeno only in the training mode, but it certainly seemed to have an obvious 2-3 sec timer.
Its viable as is the rifle, but not as frontline unit. Skulks xenocide into group of marines to soften them and Onoses and Fades make short work of them.
Its viable as is the rifle, but not as frontline unit. Skulks xenocide into group of marines to soften them and Onoses and Fades make short work of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
think about what you just said:
4 skulks to kill a marine (with xenocide)
Doesn't that sound silly? why not just BITE the marine? there are four of you after all. And if it's multiple marines I doubt you'd live long enough to get the xeno off in the first place, especially if they have L3 armor and weapons.
Xenocide needs to get buffed, it's not like the marines can't shoot the incoming skulks to stop the xeno from happening or lock them down with GL spam.
I don't think that an ability that you need 3 hives for and 40(?) resources to research and that kills you in the end should be as viable as an LMG. You won't see Xeno in the most games even if it is viable, because it is very late-game tech. I don't say, make it imba. The endgame with 2 CCs and 3 hives should be balanced. So the marines need a way to counter xenocide and / or the aliens should need skill to use it effectively.
But in the state it is right now, it is very lame for its cost.
It BETTER be imba.
Vastly reduce its damage
Make the trigger instant or near instant.
It BETTER be imba.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i definitely agree that being/staying alive is more important than the pres you lose from dying, because you lose map control, positioning, the ability to distract enemy by attacking isolated bases and less eyes mean your team is almost completely blind.
but xenocide does have the potential to be worth it, you can either kill >1 marine or you can weaken several marines enough so your teammates can make your sacrifice worth it - with a more effective clean up.
i kinda like situational abilities like this... take umbra or stomp as other examples - why would anyone use those abilities against a single enemy? well, i'd be hugely disappointed if they were removed just because they were generally less useful than a cheap left-click in most situations.
Vastly reduce its damage
Make the trigger instant or near instant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would work if you made the player respawn instantaneous after each xenocide. Reducing the damage and activation time doesn't really help the whole being dead sitting in a queue and not getting any personal res.
Because of that using Xenocide is counter-intuitive, you do pitiful damage and hurt your own res-income lessening the chance of getting enough res for a more viable higher life-form that could actually make a difference.
As long as a Xeno-Skulk loses out on res for using his ability, i will not use that ability it's as simple as that and i believe most min-maxers handle it the same way.
The other big flaw is the inability to bite while Xeno is charging up, that's all kinds of stupid if you consider the pitiful damage it does. Because of this it's way more useful to just suicide into the marines and BITE them as you will end up doing more damage before dying compared to managing to pull off a Xeno explosion.
So Xeno either needs an massive damage boost and the handling of NS1 Xeno (being able to bite while it charges up) or introduce a way to make it less hurtful to the res-income of the Xenoskulk. Maybe Skulks that die by Xeno get shorter respawn times and/or still get res while respawning? Lot's of ways to make it actually viable as long as we are not scared of overbuffing it for 1-2 builds.
And i don't think that Tier 3 abilities should be situational. A Jetpack, Exo or 3/3 upgrades ain't situational either, so why should the strongest Kharaa abilities be any different? They should be strong viable tools, after all getting 3 Hives up used to be the equivalent of Marines having lost the round.
but wouldn't that mean that if there was a marine in your base you could instaspawn > xenocide > instaspawn > xenocide...
some of the 'suggestions' on this forum are bad enough to cause a cerebral embolism.
some of the 'suggestions' on this forum are bad enough to cause a cerebral embolism.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
nvm didnt read the quote