There's nothing fundamentally wrong with Xenocide right now, it just needs to deal substantially more damage. Hive 3 abilities should be a big deal. Faster respawning is also an option, but it won't help as much when it comes to endgame base-breaking.
Scrap xenocide, it's unworkable. The ability either deals good damage (unfair for a 0 res creature) or it doesn't (completely worthless).
Instead the ability becomes 'evolutionary remnant': - when a skulk evolves, an egg is left behind. - that egg can be destroyed like any other egg. - when the skulk dies, if that egg still exists, the skulk will instantly respawn at the egg (with no upgrades - like normal).
Features: - the skulk won't be able to 'spam' itself quickly as it needs to evolve every time. - the closer it respawns to the enemy, the more fragile the egg. - as dying loses the skulk nothing, and killing it gains nothing, there is no external balance change.
(if necessary, the life of the skulk could decrease with each respawn, until they respawn at the hive to reset this?)
<!--quoteo(post=2015553:date=Nov 8 2012, 10:23 AM:name=dumbo11)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dumbo11 @ Nov 8 2012, 10:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015553"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok - crazy idea time.
Scrap xenocide, it's unworkable. The ability either deals good damage (unfair for a 0 res creature) or it doesn't (completely worthless).
Instead the ability becomes 'evolutionary remnant': - when a skulk evolves, an egg is left behind. - that egg can be destroyed like any other egg. - when the skulk dies, if that egg still exists, the skulk will instantly respawn at the egg (with no upgrades - like normal).
Features: - the skulk won't be able to 'spam' itself quickly as it needs to evolve every time. - the closer it respawns to the enemy, the more fragile the egg. - as dying loses the skulk nothing, and killing it gains nothing, there is no external balance change.
(if necessary, the life of the skulk could decrease with each respawn, until they respawn at the hive to reset this?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No need to scrap xenocide It worked GREAT in the first game Why re-invent the wheel, just put it back to what it's supposed to be and we're done and can move on to more important issues.
<!--quoteo(post=2015521:date=Nov 8 2012, 09:45 AM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 8 2012, 09:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015521"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i kinda like situational abilities like this... take umbra or stomp as other examples - why would anyone use those abilities against a single enemy? well, i'd be hugely disappointed if they were removed just because they were generally less useful than a cheap left-click in most situations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stomp is actually incredibly useful against a lone enemy. If I hear someone about to turn a corner, I ready stomp, and flatten him as soon as he comes around. For sure worth the bit of energy it takes to not take 300 rifle damage.
Aside from not being able to bite or leap while charging up, Xeno is fine. I've seen 6+ people be killed by 1 Xeno. If you could bite and leap while charging it would be every bit as devastating as it was in NS1.
<!--quoteo(post=2015320:date=Nov 8 2012, 04:23 AM:name=PureHostility)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PureHostility @ Nov 8 2012, 04:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if detonation of xeno would leave a bile explosion is close proximity ? It would be a neat siege weapon. Few skulks run in with xeno, they all explode taking down few buildings, instead of scratching the paint like now.
So maybe, make it's power to equal of the 3-4 bile bombs (leaving initial burst to lifeforms)?
EDIT:
I forgot, Respawning should be tweaked if someone used a xenocide. Either he respawns immediately or he do gain pres while dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2015537:date=Nov 8 2012, 04:03 PM:name=baphometsayshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (baphometsayshi @ Nov 8 2012, 04:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015537"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This would work if you made the player respawn instantaneous after each xenocide. Reducing the damage and activation time doesn't really help the whole being dead sitting in a queue and not getting any personal res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, the point of an instant low damage Xeno would be as a final attack to use as a skulk when you have exhausted your normal attacks.
So you run in, bite a few people, take some dmg, and then pull off the xeno right before you die as a final shot.
This problem is far to simple for such a long thread, xenocide is too weak make it stronger. More dmg, biger radius, bile bomb acid effect on buildings/armor something. It's current iteration is pathetic =( only a cunning and intelligent skulk can even manage to get a kill with it.
I had a look in the balance file a few days ago and was surprised to find that xeno (supposedly) actually has a much larger radius than grenades do. Given how large the grenade blast is, and given that xeno's radius was nearly twice as large, a xeno blast should hit most of a (smaller, like Sub Access) room. Xeno certainly <i>feels</i> a lot smaller than that though, so maybe there's something else going on that I didn't notice. I might have to play around with it on a private server...
<!--quoteo(post=2015867:date=Nov 8 2012, 04:35 PM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Nov 8 2012, 04:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015867"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aside from not being able to bite or leap while charging up<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can leap while using xeno, you just can't switch weapons.
Just a question: In build 225 Xeno was Normal-DMG and AFAIK it is still Normal-DMG. Every time ceno was up an Marines were turtlig, we just build a forward Shift lots of EGGs and just xenoed in till all the buildings and Marines were diwn. In a Gas-Xeno combo no Marine team stands a chance.
As we know an A0/A1 Marine is insta dead when a Skulk explodes at his feet. An A3 marine has 40HP/20AP left if the Xeno was PB. And now tell me again Xeno is usless! A nice side effect is also that you damage buildings while the Marines sit around the Armory to get HP/AP back when suddenly a 2. Xeno comes in an kills those guys at the Armory,
Xeno is just unused, before getting Xeno you wan't the 3. Rd Upgradepath, Stomp and Umbra, then you may get Xeno but in 98% of this game stage you already have won or you simply don't have any Skulks on the field.
Yeah, something worked once! Balance must be totally fine.
<!--quoteo(post=2016763:date=Nov 9 2012, 04:48 AM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Nov 9 2012, 04:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just a question: In build 225 Xeno was Normal-DMG and AFAIK it is still Normal-DMG. Every time ceno was up an Marines were turtlig, we just build a forward Shift lots of EGGs and just xenoed in till all the buildings and Marines were diwn. In a Gas-Xeno combo no Marine team stands a chance.
As we know an A0/A1 Marine is insta dead when a Skulk explodes at his feet. An A3 marine has 40HP/20AP left if the Xeno was PB. And now tell me again Xeno is usless! A nice side effect is also that you damage buildings while the Marines sit around the Armory to get HP/AP back when suddenly a 2. Xeno comes in an kills those guys at the Armory,
Xeno is just unused, before getting Xeno you wan't the 3. Rd Upgradepath, Stomp and Umbra, then you may get Xeno but in 98% of this game stage you already have won or you simply don't have any Skulks on the field.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Xeno is light damage, says so on the Wiki. That means it deals 1/4 damage to armour.
And really, what marine team is on A0/A1 when you have xeno in play? If you've got three hives and enough spare res to research xeno and the marine team has only a0/1, you're just trolling by using it.
The wiki is wrong then, xeno is listed as normal damage in the balance.lua file.
I did some testing today, and yes, xeno has insane range on it. If you stand on the power node pillar in Terminal, it reaches across the entire room (from door to door). A grenade fired at the same spot will reach about 4/7 of the distance that Xeno will (completely unsurprising, given that the radius of a grenade is 8 and xeno is 14; a 4:7 ratio).
<!--quoteo(post=2019381:date=Nov 11 2012, 04:00 AM:name=Ness_FrogKing)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ness_FrogKing @ Nov 11 2012, 04:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019381"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The wiki is wrong then, xeno is listed as normal damage in the balance.lua file.
I did some testing today, and yes, xeno has insane range on it. If you stand on the power node pillar in Terminal, it reaches across the entire room (from door to door). A grenade fired at the same spot will reach about 4/7 of the distance that Xeno will (completely unsurprising, given that the radius of a grenade is 8 and xeno is 14; a 4:7 ratio).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yay, someone who actually tested it!
Having a huge AoE makes me happy with Xenocide, it doesn't feel as big as you say but that's probably because I tried it on a base full of healthy marines. Two skulks killing a team by sacrificing themselves seems reasonable in a game balanced around complete team work. Especially since it's a three hive, super late game tech. Seems designed to counter the end-game turtle if people coordinate, honestly.
In a weird way, this makes Vortex the absolute worst tech to waste resources on. Congrats Xeno, you're only <i>second</i> worst.
Comments
Scrap xenocide, it's unworkable. The ability either deals good damage (unfair for a 0 res creature) or it doesn't (completely worthless).
Instead the ability becomes 'evolutionary remnant':
- when a skulk evolves, an egg is left behind.
- that egg can be destroyed like any other egg.
- when the skulk dies, if that egg still exists, the skulk will instantly respawn at the egg (with no upgrades - like normal).
Features:
- the skulk won't be able to 'spam' itself quickly as it needs to evolve every time.
- the closer it respawns to the enemy, the more fragile the egg.
- as dying loses the skulk nothing, and killing it gains nothing, there is no external balance change.
(if necessary, the life of the skulk could decrease with each respawn, until they respawn at the hive to reset this?)
Scrap xenocide, it's unworkable. The ability either deals good damage (unfair for a 0 res creature) or it doesn't (completely worthless).
Instead the ability becomes 'evolutionary remnant':
- when a skulk evolves, an egg is left behind.
- that egg can be destroyed like any other egg.
- when the skulk dies, if that egg still exists, the skulk will instantly respawn at the egg (with no upgrades - like normal).
Features:
- the skulk won't be able to 'spam' itself quickly as it needs to evolve every time.
- the closer it respawns to the enemy, the more fragile the egg.
- as dying loses the skulk nothing, and killing it gains nothing, there is no external balance change.
(if necessary, the life of the skulk could decrease with each respawn, until they respawn at the hive to reset this?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No need to scrap xenocide
It worked GREAT in the first game
Why re-invent the wheel, just put it back to what it's supposed to be and we're done and can move on to more important issues.
Stomp is actually incredibly useful against a lone enemy. If I hear someone about to turn a corner, I ready stomp, and flatten him as soon as he comes around. For sure worth the bit of energy it takes to not take 300 rifle damage.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/2sR8R.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Few skulks run in with xeno, they all explode taking down few buildings, instead of scratching the paint like now.
So maybe, make it's power to equal of the 3-4 bile bombs (leaving initial burst to lifeforms)?
EDIT:
I forgot,
Respawning should be tweaked if someone used a xenocide.
Either he respawns immediately or he do gain pres while dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is an amazing idea! +1
No, the point of an instant low damage Xeno would be as a final attack to use as a skulk when you have exhausted your normal attacks.
So you run in, bite a few people, take some dmg, and then pull off the xeno right before you die as a final shot.
and it should also make you respawn almost instantly.
otherwise whats the point? like OP says, might as well keep biting
This problem is far to simple for such a long thread, xenocide is too weak make it stronger. More dmg, biger radius, bile bomb acid effect on buildings/armor something. It's current iteration is pathetic =( only a cunning and intelligent skulk can even manage to get a kill with it.
<!--quoteo(post=2015867:date=Nov 8 2012, 04:35 PM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Nov 8 2012, 04:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015867"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aside from not being able to bite or leap while charging up<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can leap while using xeno, you just can't switch weapons.
Every time ceno was up an Marines were turtlig, we just build a forward Shift lots of EGGs and just xenoed in till all the buildings and Marines were diwn.
In a Gas-Xeno combo no Marine team stands a chance.
As we know an A0/A1 Marine is insta dead when a Skulk explodes at his feet. An A3 marine has 40HP/20AP left if the Xeno was PB. And now tell me again Xeno is usless! A nice side effect is also that you damage buildings while the Marines sit around the Armory to get HP/AP back when suddenly a 2. Xeno comes in an kills those guys at the Armory,
Xeno is just unused, before getting Xeno you wan't the 3. Rd Upgradepath, Stomp and Umbra, then you may get Xeno but in 98% of this game stage you already have won or you simply don't have any Skulks on the field.
Yeah, something worked once! Balance must be totally fine.
<!--quoteo(post=2016763:date=Nov 9 2012, 04:48 AM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Nov 9 2012, 04:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just a question: In build 225 Xeno was Normal-DMG and AFAIK it is still Normal-DMG.
Every time ceno was up an Marines were turtlig, we just build a forward Shift lots of EGGs and just xenoed in till all the buildings and Marines were diwn.
In a Gas-Xeno combo no Marine team stands a chance.
As we know an A0/A1 Marine is insta dead when a Skulk explodes at his feet. An A3 marine has 40HP/20AP left if the Xeno was PB. And now tell me again Xeno is usless! A nice side effect is also that you damage buildings while the Marines sit around the Armory to get HP/AP back when suddenly a 2. Xeno comes in an kills those guys at the Armory,
Xeno is just unused, before getting Xeno you wan't the 3. Rd Upgradepath, Stomp and Umbra, then you may get Xeno but in 98% of this game stage you already have won or you simply don't have any Skulks on the field.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Xeno is light damage, says so on the Wiki. That means it deals 1/4 damage to armour.
And really, what marine team is on A0/A1 when you have xeno in play? If you've got three hives and enough spare res to research xeno and the marine team has only a0/1, you're just trolling by using it.
I did some testing today, and yes, xeno has insane range on it. If you stand on the power node pillar in Terminal, it reaches across the entire room (from door to door). A grenade fired at the same spot will reach about 4/7 of the distance that Xeno will (completely unsurprising, given that the radius of a grenade is 8 and xeno is 14; a 4:7 ratio).
I did some testing today, and yes, xeno has insane range on it. If you stand on the power node pillar in Terminal, it reaches across the entire room (from door to door). A grenade fired at the same spot will reach about 4/7 of the distance that Xeno will (completely unsurprising, given that the radius of a grenade is 8 and xeno is 14; a 4:7 ratio).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yay, someone who actually tested it!
Having a huge AoE makes me happy with Xenocide, it doesn't feel as big as you say but that's probably because I tried it on a base full of healthy marines. Two skulks killing a team by sacrificing themselves seems reasonable in a game balanced around complete team work. Especially since it's a three hive, super late game tech. Seems designed to counter the end-game turtle if people coordinate, honestly.
In a weird way, this makes Vortex the absolute worst tech to waste resources on. Congrats Xeno, you're only <i>second</i> worst.