Resources for kills

13

Comments

  • tarquinbbtarquinbb Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166314Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2026336:date=Nov 17 2012, 12:50 AM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Nov 17 2012, 12:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026336"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People can say what they want about RFK, but it is definitely not worse than the current system of losing resources while dead. No resource gain while dead is a really terrible system.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    erm. unless i've done my maths wrong:

    1 extractor = 0.125 per 6 seconds = 0.02 per second.

    if you had 5 extractors and waited 10 seconds to respawn, you effectively lost 1 resource.

    ow mah gawd gamebreaking!
  • SpetzSpetz Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7100Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2026815:date=Nov 17 2012, 12:57 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 17 2012, 12:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026815"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->erm. unless i've done my maths wrong:

    1 extractor = 0.125 per 6 seconds = 0.02 per second.

    if you had 5 extractors and waited 10 seconds to respawn, you effectively lost 1 resource.

    ow mah gawd gamebreaking!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    If you're doing your job well as a skulk killing 2-3 marines at a time who are trying to advance then you are going to be dead a lot more than 10s. Total time dead of a not unreasonable 1-2 minutes can delay lifeforms significantly.
  • SpetzSpetz Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7100Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2026807:date=Nov 17 2012, 12:48 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 17 2012, 12:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026807"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->giving skilled players an arbitrary bonus != skill depth... unless you like the critical strike reward system in tf2. it's an arbitrary bonus because it's a reward for something which is almost insignificant to the overall strategy.


    to be honest, i can't see any situation where RFK would not totally ruin the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yes it is. It rewards people getting good at the game so that there is a difference between low and very high skill. Sensible intelligent players will want to invest time in the game to get as good as the guy who is dominating the server.

    Well at the moment, aliens is completely ruined for me in NS2 because of no RFK. There is no guarantee of being able to go a more fun life form before the game is over, even if I'm completely dominating the marines as skulk. All that effort getting frags and giving my team even the slightest chance of winning the game is lost if they are totally clueless. All that effort wasted for no fade/onos fun.

    I'll say again: aliens need RFK because it takes CONSIDERABLY more skill to get frags as aliens than marines.
  • tarquinbbtarquinbb Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166314Members
    edited November 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=2026829:date=Nov 17 2012, 01:15 PM:name=Spetz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Spetz @ Nov 17 2012, 01:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026829"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes it is. It rewards people getting good at the game so that there is a difference between low and very high skill. Sensible intelligent players will want to invest time in the game to get as good as the guy who is dominating the server.

    Well at the moment, aliens is completely ruined for me in NS2 because of no RFK. There is no guarantee of being able to go a more fun life form before the game is over, even if I'm completely dominating the marines as skulk. All that effort getting frags and giving my team even the slightest chance of winning the game is lost if they are totally clueless. All that effort wasted for no fade/onos fun.

    I'll say again: aliens need RFK because it takes CONSIDERABLY more skill to get frags as aliens than marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    you should still be getting >1:1 as a skulk, because if you're a decent player you should be smart enough to know only to engage when you have a decent chance of winning [unless of course you want to attack as a group, which requires coordination and adds skill depth, but in the case of RFK some unfortunate guy is the pin cushion and loses res].

    a marine does have a sizable advantage over skulk if he has the initiative, but if the skulk can ambush a marine or get into melee range without taking hits then it's basically a 50/50. obviously this is offset a bit in later game when marines have armor upgrades.

    despite the points i've already made in previous posts about RFK making the game super boring, which i still believe are valid, aren't you making a significant oversight in that how RFK would work for lerk, fade and onos? it seems like a buff to skulk which is only necessary in late game (armor upgraded marines), but the collateral is to buff lerk, fade and onos which are already more capable of frags than marines...


    your reward for getting better at the game is that you can kill more enemies therefore you survive longer and therefore kill the resource tower, phase gate or power node etc and score points for your team. rewarding what you call skill, aka frag hunting, or as i like to call 'playing like a sandbagging lamer', would be an unmitigated disaster.
  • lwflwf Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58311Members, Constellation
    I don't see any reason why. Killing enemy players is a tool used to accomplish an objective, such as securing res towers. It is not <i>the</i> objective. Why should killing just for the killing be rewarded? If you feel like your kill wasn't worth anything it's because you're not actually helping, just deathmatching at the wrong place at the wrong time. That's not a fault of the game or something it should even attempt to fix.
  • LuminothLuminoth Join Date: 2012-11-16 Member: 171739Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2026730:date=Nov 17 2012, 10:35 AM:name=Spetz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Spetz @ Nov 17 2012, 10:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026730"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's very simple: it appears the people arguing against RFK are generally of low skill. I can tell from the comments.

    Good players argue for it because it enhances the game experience as the OP said, RFK makes the game fun. It is SO unrewarding to be totally carrying your team as a skulk and lose out on lifeforms first and lose the ability to influence the game over a team of newb marines just because there is no RFK. Instead, all that effort is expended and you lose to a team of NS2-only newbie marines just because the alien comm/team was incompetent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I don't consider myself a very good nor a very bad player, i rather fit in the middle. Nonetheless I happen to stay very offen on top of the list because of my overall points. Mostly I don't have the best KDR nor am I the one with most kills. I don't even need to play onos or exo to get my points. My point is, that my points are telling me that I'm usefull to the team and if you'd implement RFK then, because I don't kill that much, I would not be as much rewarded.

    So unless you want to implement some kind of build for res or heal for res alongside it I don't see the purpose. Cause you require skill to follow an exo into battle, struggling to stay alive while keeping your welder on it. The same counts for other non killing tasks.

    Plus I raise you another problem: mostly, when you play marine, you keep in a thight formation of 3 or 4 marines. If a skulk appears, they'll all start shooting at it and eventually one of them will get the killbullet and consequently the rfk. Won't that be unfair for the other? Will that mean the one administering the final bullet has more skill than the others? Will there be "that guy" that always refuses to build something, prefering to cover his teammates so that he can get that res kill?

    My point: By implementing RFK solely, you're removing the essence of the game which is teamplay, you start creating a in-team rivality which is well known to other FPS, such as CoD.

    Please don't remove the teamplay essence of the game, it's what I love. Just knowing that some stranger has your back and you have his giving yourself courage to move into an infested area and after an encounter being glad the enemy is dead regardless of whom killed it, that's the best part of the game!
  • NeoRussiaNeoRussia Join Date: 2012-08-04 Member: 154743Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2026868:date=Nov 17 2012, 10:18 AM:name=Luminoth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Luminoth @ Nov 17 2012, 10:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026868"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My point: By implementing RFK solely, you're removing the essence of the game which is teamplay, you start creating a in-team rivality which is well known to other FPS, such as CoD.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That doesn't make any sense. NS2 has nothing to do with CoD, and neither does RFK. Why would people work against their team in order to try to play better? You would think the opposite would be true. What would people do, try harder to aim to killsteal or something to feel more accomplished about themselves?
  • PimpToadPimpToad Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 166005Members
    Can someone explain to me why KDR is used as a metric to differentiate between "good" and "bad" players in a non-deathmatch game? I'm sorry to say but NS2's map objectives do not involve reaching 'x' amount of kills to achieve victory. Correct me if I'm wrong, but destroying all enemy hives/cc's is the victory condition yes? The player with the horrid KDR can still achieve this victory condition, yet would still be considered "bad" just because of KDR?

    NS2 fails utterly as a hybrid if it fosters this kind of mentality. It's supposed to be an objective-based shooter with real-time strategy elements, not a rack-up-kills deathmatch with killstreaks. Maybe the "good" players want the Quake announcer too. Nothing like the entire server hearing your awesomeness to raise the "skill depth" right?

    Though I suppose I'm considered a "bad" player for not focusing on racking up the kills and avoiding death. And as a "bad" player, "Bad players' opinions should not be given much weight." It makes me all warm and cuddly inside when my worth as a player is judged solely on my KDR and nothing else.
  • WizzballWizzball Join Date: 2004-09-25 Member: 31915Members
    Wow. A Forum I haven't posted on for over <i>8 years</i>. The internet is really getting old....

    anyways, on topic:

    I assume most of the talk on the board is about pub play, as for clanners it's usually important that their team wins. "Us vs them" as entities.
    As an anonymous dude amongst many, on pubs people want to get rewarded and told that you're a good player amongst these random guys you're playing with. "I vs everyone else". I think that's not personal attitude, but mostly psychology - you simply don't <b>feel</b> like a team with a bunch of people you've never met or played with before, no matter what game mechanics say. If you're alien and the game end message shows "Aliens lost", its the other Aliens who lost the game - the individual player looks for another score that tells him he's been doing great, like kills or points. Blame the others for a loss, assume that victory is due to you. Of course that basic attitude is amplified by character, but it's present in everyone of us.

    And then there's the demand to be able to show that felt superiority by in-game means, 'exert the power', manifest your superiority by wearing fancier gear (See any MMORPG for proof). And if you play an alien, the metaphor is even cooler! How could you show better that you're a higher lifeform than all those other guys on your team than <i>actually involving into one</i>?

    And for that you need res. So you want res for the thing you did well even though your team lost.
    That's what it sounds like to me.


    On the other hand, there's the kind of play the gamedesign wants to reward. And for NS2, as it very much looks, that's teamplay and strategy. (I don't know if / think that the gamedesigners really wants to discourage snowballing altogether, as that's not an entirely bad thing - you need some of it in every game keep matches timely and decisive.)
    Resources for kills, as stated multiple times in this thread, do not serve teamplay and strategy well. It emphasizes the FPS/twitch skill aspect over the top as it rewards combat skills exclusively but not strategy. The same goes for No Resources When Dead - I really don't get why that is in. Penalizing the loser is game-mechanics-wise quite the same as rewarding the winner, it just emphasizes bad feel over good feel, which is always a bad thing. Getting rewarded feels better than being punished. If you wanna nerf a class, don't nerf it but buff all others. It will feel nicer to everyone. The Lerk-Player example is a good example that this penalty-mechanic does punish one kind of play a bit much.
    So this isn't a solution to the demand that fits the game, but that doesn't mean there is none.

    So what's he game really about? Combat and strategy, buildup and teardown. The snowballing effect the gamedesign obviously wants is that the amount of RTs owned and Map Control wins the game. That doesn't mean that kills are worth nothing, as it's still a FPS hybrid, it just means that these kills are only worth it when done in the right strategic context, else they're meaningless. This is substantially different from other shooters, so few new players actually get this. And the game also doesn't reward it.

    So to reward Kills properly, you have to set a <b>context</b> for the reward. That context is resource towers. I would:
    * If an enemy RT is killed, reward all players of the killing team in the vincinity (area effect) with +N PRes.
    * If an own RT has finished building, reward all players of the owning team in the vincinity (area effect) with +N PRes.
    * Reward all kills in vincinity of an own RT with +N PRes fpr the killer.
    * Put out a text message in the UI when the Team's RTs are under attack, similar to Hives. Maybe make it an option to switch that off, may be annoying for vets.

    Since RT's start the snowballing effect in the game, players should focus on getting and holding them. If I get a reward when killing off enemy RT's, players will be encouraged to attack. If I get a reward when killing enemies next to an RT, I will be rewarded to defend them. The text message takes care that new players quickly get that RTs are important to the game and that they can quickly go where they can get the most reward.
    Also, these events (RT attacks and defenses) will serve as meeting points where players go and automatially find themselves some teammates to follow as everyone at a certain strategically important location gets rewarded simply for being there at the right time, not an individual player doing the RT-kill.
    However, the skilled players also get rewarded for player kills, but only if doing them at strategically important locations.

    You could also keep the No Resourcen When Dead penalty since there now are incentives for risking your life both defensively and offensively <i>in the right place</i>. Instead of a lone punishment for bad twitch skills it becomes a risk/reward decision.

    You could extend the kill-reward for all buildings if you want a more aggressive game, as buildings is what map control is all about - Extended bases, phase gates, hives, chambers, creep - the presence of buildings means map control for the team AND they were placed by a strategic decision of the commander. (that also means that gorge-built-buildings like hydras should not give a reward).
    A good or bad Commander already decides the outcome of a game - that's the RTS part of the game. It doesn't matter much if the Commander can also become a 'Feeder' for the other team by building things too far forward and so feeding the other teams' players with PRes. The enhanced snowball effect of that mechanic only serves to end lopsided matches with a single bad Commander quicker, and that's not really a bad thing, as the actions of that single person can screw up the fun for many (that's the big risk in the RTF/FPS hybrid genre), so you may want to get over with it quickly. So in this reward-mechanic, the Commander would be the only guy who can feed, no Alien or Marine whether newbie or not risks to feed the other team just by dieing more often than average, so they can't be blamed and the community may stay as incredibly friendly and happy as it is.

    It's not that skill should not be rewarded at all (every game must do that), it's only that this game as RTS/FPS hybrid should reward FPS/RTS skills in combination (reward presence and kills at the right strategic position but not somewhere else), not just FPS skills on their own.
  • xxswatelitexxxxswatelitexx Join Date: 2012-11-16 Member: 171754Members
    edited November 2012
    Problem when associating resource for kills is. You end up having snowballing. Good players get access to better items much faster. Which means they just becoe more deadly faster, meaning they can change balance of the game.

    One solution is not based on how good you are. How how good your aim bot hack is. But essentially how USEFUL YOU ARE TO YOUR TEAM <----.
    Why promote ramboism, by trying to get more kills?
    Essentially create a seperate system based on Score and not Kills alone.

    -----
    Using Skill point Slots with unlock with SCORE and not kills. Why score? That way crappy players who can't shoot get benefited also by following orders.
    Natural Selection is a TEAM game. You cannot win without good team effort. Meaning if a system were in place to reward a player. It should be to reward following team spirt.

    Easiest way to score up is kills, but you can score up points by doing other things such as repairing \ building \ etc. With 3 Skill slots unlocking, one at every 150 points.

    Some skills could be.
    <u>MARINES</u>
    Faster Reload - 2.5% upgrade to reload speed for every 50 points. To a maximum of 15% reload speed upgrade.
    Mobile Ping - Unlocks at 150 points. Ability to ping area around you. At cost of 3 res.
    Running Speed - 1.5% increase in running speed for every 50 points. Maximum 15% increase
    Faster Repair - 2% increase in repair speed. At every 50 points. Maximum 10%


    <u>ALIENS</u>
    Higher Jumping - 1% increase in jump for every 50 points. Maximum 10%
    Reduction of Stamina Useage - skills require less stamina 1.5% for 50 point for a maximum of 15%
    Cyst Vision. - 150 points. Allows aliens to see humans within 40 meters. Of the alien in which a cyst is present. Cost of 3 res per usuage. With 30 second cool down.
    Secondary Evo Boost [Xenocide [radius] - Stomp [time] - Blink [effect duration] - Bile bomb [radius] - spore [radius]] - 1% for every 65 points for a maximum of 10%

    Keep in mind. To get access to first skill you would first need at least 150 points.
    Then you can purchase 3 50 point items. or 1 100 point item and 1 50 point item.
    You can only pick 3 skill trees. And upgrade each skill 10 times. [Some skills only once]
    so to upgrade just 1 skill to a maximum of 10 times. Would require an investment of 500 points.

    ------

    Some alternate way to recieve score points could be.
    Assist Kill - % of points based on the % of damage done to the alien before dying.
    Saviour - Saved your team mate from dying, by killing the person attacking him or her
    Save Building [As mentioned in previous post] - Points for killing the attacker attacking Building
  • NeoRussiaNeoRussia Join Date: 2012-08-04 Member: 154743Members
    I like how people still comment on RFK without realizing what it is trying to achieve. Trying to argue turtling is a problem yet saying the game shouldn't snowball when one team has an advantage, or think of RFK as some kind of e-peen measurement system when it's only that from their point of view yet brushing it off as not caring about k/d ratio. The irony is almost palpable.
  • SpetzSpetz Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7100Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2026916:date=Nov 17 2012, 03:55 PM:name=xxswatelitexx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xxswatelitexx @ Nov 17 2012, 03:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026916"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good players get access to better items much faster. Which means they just becoe more deadly faster, meaning they can change balance of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That's not a bad thing. That's a good thing. It makes people want to be good.
  • SpetzSpetz Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7100Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2026868:date=Nov 17 2012, 02:18 PM:name=Luminoth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Luminoth @ Nov 17 2012, 02:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026868"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't consider myself a very good nor a very bad player, i rather fit in the middle. Nonetheless I happen to stay very offen on top of the list because of my overall points. Mostly I don't have the best KDR nor am I the one with most kills. I don't even need to play onos or exo to get my points. My point is, that my points are telling me that I'm usefull to the team and if you'd implement RFK then, because I don't kill that much, I would not be as much rewarded.

    So unless you want to implement some kind of build for res or heal for res alongside it I don't see the purpose. Cause you require skill to follow an exo into battle, struggling to stay alive while keeping your welder on it. The same counts for other non killing tasks.

    Plus I raise you another problem: mostly, when you play marine, you keep in a thight formation of 3 or 4 marines. If a skulk appears, they'll all start shooting at it and eventually one of them will get the killbullet and consequently the rfk. Won't that be unfair for the other? Will that mean the one administering the final bullet has more skill than the others? Will there be "that guy" that always refuses to build something, prefering to cover his teammates so that he can get that res kill?

    My point: By implementing RFK solely, you're removing the essence of the game which is teamplay, you start creating a in-team rivality which is well known to other FPS, such as CoD.

    Please don't remove the teamplay essence of the game, it's what I love. Just knowing that some stranger has your back and you have his giving yourself courage to move into an infested area and after an encounter being glad the enemy is dead regardless of whom killed it, that's the best part of the game!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Playing like this doesn't make you a bad player.

    However, you cannot deny that the player on alien team totally dominating the marines and stopping them advancing is the one with the bigger impact on the game. He/she should be rewarded for that. You shouldn't be penalised; rather he should be rewarded.

    NS is about frags. Territory control only comes about because of frags. This is very simple.

    Aliens need RFK.

    Also, don't use CoD as an example: it's a game for newbs.
  • countbasiecountbasie Join Date: 2008-12-27 Member: 65884Members
    Totally agree with OP.
  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=2026952:date=Nov 17 2012, 06:48 PM:name=Spetz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Spetz @ Nov 17 2012, 06:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026952"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS is about frags. Territory control only comes about because of frags. This is very simple.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This is simply wrong. Games like Quake are about frags. NS2 is a RTS / FPS hybrid. It is different from the normal ego-shooter because the strategical decisions tell who will win the game too. (Additionally to the personal skill of players.)

    RFK would diminish this uniqueness from NS2.
  • SpetzSpetz Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7100Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2027036:date=Nov 17 2012, 06:05 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Nov 17 2012, 06:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is simply wrong. Games like Quake are about frags. NS2 is a RTS / FPS hybrid. It is different from the normal ego-shooter because the strategical decisions tell who will win the game too. (Additionally to the personal skill of players.)

    RFK would diminish this uniqueness from NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Nope, sorry. NS is about frags. Frags allow you to get resource nodes to win the game. I'm sorry you don't understand this.

    There was RFK in NS1 and it was perfectly fine.
  • liquiddeathliquiddeath Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167304Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2027048:date=Nov 17 2012, 11:12 AM:name=Spetz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Spetz @ Nov 17 2012, 11:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027048"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nope, sorry. NS is about frags. Frags allow you to get resource nodes to win the game. I'm sorry you don't understand this.

    There was RFK in NS1 and it was perfectly fine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Frags are but one way to achieve territorial control, but you don't have to kill to achieve that. Otherwise neither side could expand at the beginning before someone died. You can take control of territory by simply forcing a retreat. Aliens can take control by putting phase gates and observatories offline as it drastically reduces a marine's ability to exert influence. Marines can cut off cyst chains until the ends die or establish forward phase gates.

    And even then resource nodes make RFK redundant because they already reward you for killing. It also lessens the importance of the critically important skill of knowing when to stop fighting and consolidate. By directly giving resources for killing you are rewarding killing for the sake of killing not for playing an objective.
  • WizzballWizzball Join Date: 2004-09-25 Member: 31915Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2027048:date=Nov 17 2012, 02:12 PM:name=Spetz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Spetz @ Nov 17 2012, 02:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027048"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nope, sorry. NS is about frags. Frags allow you to get resource nodes to win the game. I'm sorry you don't understand this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yesterday, a newbie marine team fought against a progamer alien team. The progamer team's objective was individually getting as many frags as possible. The newbie's objective was killing the enemy hives.
    At the start of the game, the newbies rushed towards the hives while the aliens rushed towards the marine base. On the way, the teams met, all marines getting hopelessly eaten except of a single lonely 'rine who the progamer aliens had overlooked because he just ran past the combat. No skulks died.
    The progamer team pushed the 'rines back into their base and ended up camping in front of the infantry portals to spawnfrag every spawning marine, taking great care not to destroy the IPs. That was the best way for each player to get the maximum frags per minute possible. Running back to chase the lonely marine would have gotten them more frags total as team, but not the individual player who would have to run back all the way back and forth spending time not fragging spawning marines, so noone did it, thus achieving their objective.

    Meanwhile, the lonely marine axed their hive.

    Result:
    Aliens had 317 frags, marines 0.
    Surprisingly, despite their frags, Aliens had gotten no resource towers.
    Aliens had no commander as commander doesn't get frags.

    Game displayed 'Aliens lost'.

    Please explain.
  • 1dominator11dominator1 Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Members
    edited November 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=2026821:date=Nov 17 2012, 09:10 AM:name=Spetz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Spetz @ Nov 17 2012, 09:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026821"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you're doing your job well as a skulk killing 2-3 marines at a time who are trying to advance then you are going to be dead a lot more than 10s. Total time dead of a not unreasonable 1-2 minutes can delay lifeforms significantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    So avoid fighting more than 2-3 marines on your own and you wont die.

    <!--quoteo(post=2026949:date=Nov 17 2012, 12:45 PM:name=Spetz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Spetz @ Nov 17 2012, 12:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's not a bad thing. That's a good thing. It makes people want to be good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Cause they dont want that already and enjoy so much the constant death and inability to kill stuff.
  • SpetzSpetz Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7100Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2027094:date=Nov 17 2012, 07:09 PM:name=Wizzball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wizzball @ Nov 17 2012, 07:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027094"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yesterday, a newbie marine team fought against a progamer alien team. The progamer team's objective was individually getting as many frags as possible. The newbie's objective was killing the enemy hives.
    At the start of the game, the newbies rushed towards the hives while the aliens rushed towards the marine base. On the way, the teams met, all marines getting hopelessly eaten except of a single lonely 'rine who the progamer aliens had overlooked because he just ran past the combat. No skulks died.
    The progamer team pushed the 'rines back into their base and ended up camping in front of the infantry portals to spawnfrag every spawning marine, taking great care not to destroy the IPs. That was the best way for each player to get the maximum frags per minute possible. Running back to chase the lonely marine would have gotten them more frags total as team, but not the individual player who would have to run back all the way back and forth spending time not fragging spawning marines, so noone did it, thus achieving their objective.

    Meanwhile, the lonely marine axed their hive.

    Result:
    Aliens had 317 frags, marines 0.
    Surprisingly, despite their frags, Aliens had gotten no resource towers.
    Aliens had no commander as commander doesn't get frags.

    Game displayed 'Aliens lost'.

    Please explain.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I really doubt that happened.

    If it did, then it would be clear that the aliens were not playing to win. If you want to win, you need to get frags to take the objective.

    If what you said was true then aliens would have killed the IPs and the game would be over. Fastest way to get frags as alien is to bite the IPs until they are down. Then the game ends eventually as the aliens bite the CC to kill the commander. If one team doesn't want to win, then frags wont help.

    To win a realistic game, frags are essential. I'm sorry that you don't understand this simple concept.
  • SpetzSpetz Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7100Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2027101:date=Nov 17 2012, 07:13 PM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Nov 17 2012, 07:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027101"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So avoid fighting more than 2-3 marines on your own and you wont die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    If I don't do that team loses anyway. Nice and fun. Aliens is not fun as much fun as NS1 without RFK.
  • xxswatelitexxxxswatelitexx Join Date: 2012-11-16 Member: 171754Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2026949:date=Nov 17 2012, 11:45 AM:name=Spetz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Spetz @ Nov 17 2012, 11:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's not a bad thing. That's a good thing. It makes people want to be good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Being good isn't always a good thing. Being a good team player will help you win more.
    1 Good rine is worse of then 3 soldiers who knows how to do good team work.
    Where 1 builds the other 2 guards.

    Its better to create a reward system that rewards people for playing the game how its meant to be played. Not rewarding them for killing.
    This isn't a Rambo FPS. Like counter-strike, CoD, etc.
    Its a team based game. Reward system should be setup as such.

    The system should also be setup in such a way it doesn't buff the user to be godly. It should just assist the other in other ways.
    Which is why I suggested my alternative Score based skill system.
  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=2027102:date=Nov 17 2012, 09:17 PM:name=Spetz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Spetz @ Nov 17 2012, 09:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027102"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To win a realistic game, frags are essential.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    They are. And shouldn't get more importance. Thats why we don't need RFK.

    Oh and you can stop blaming everyone that they doesn't understand the game. We have simply different opinions. No need for elitism. That won't give your opinion more weight.
  • WizzballWizzball Join Date: 2004-09-25 Member: 31915Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2027102:date=Nov 17 2012, 03:17 PM:name=Spetz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Spetz @ Nov 17 2012, 03:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027102"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If one team doesn't want to win, then frags wont help.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <!--quoteo(post=2027102:date=Nov 17 2012, 03:17 PM:name=Spetz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Spetz @ Nov 17 2012, 03:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027102"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To win a realistic game, frags are essential.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Thanks. I conclude:
    1. Frags alone can be meaningless. You say that there is a prerequisite that decides if frags are meaningful. You describe that as 'willingness to win'.
    If someone works towards the goal of 'winning', his frags may have meaning, if someone is not, his frags are completely meaningless, disregarding their number.

    2. If something is essential to reach the goal, but isn't the goal in itself, it is usually a tool. A hammer is an essential tool for building a house, yet having a hundred hammers without the knowledge on how to use them to work towards your goal doesn't get you a house.
    (Knowledge is more basic than 'will' - you can have all the will you want if you don't know how to make it reality. My hypothetical alien progamer team most definitely had the will to win, they just didn't know that they had to frag the CC to achieve that).

    Question:
    Why do you want to reward tool use (frags) instead of rewarding achieving the goals and think it'd make a positiv difference in gameplay, except that people will start using more hammers and focus less on everything else necessary to get to the goal?

    The only thing I can observe currently is that all the people try to frag each other and play the game like Counterstrike (success wildly varying by skill, but everyone already doing his best trying to get better in it) and that the other things necessary for victory get mostly neglected.
    There's currently a strategy in the game called 'Early Onos'. I bet you know it. It's... popular.
    An Onos is a horrible fragging tool compared to any other lifeform. It's a slow, huge target allowing even the least skilled marines to get in 100% hits. No skill involved, Onos can't dodge.
    The point with the strategy is that even though the Onos is slow in killing stuff, it needs three to four w0 marines to confront it.
    If you have an Onos in a room and four marines in the other, neither of both can attack because the defender can always win by choosing the battleground. (Onos would get killed if attacking the marines on their terms - spread out in the open - rines would get killed if attacking in a narrow corrdior.) Also neither side can leave to go elsewhere, as that would mean giving up the territory they guard. So they're playing cat and mouse / threat and retreat, often without anyone racking up frags. However, the Onos is 'binding' valueabe and very limited <b>human</b> resources of the other team, more than he is spending. Even without killing anyone.

    During this stalemate, the rest of the aliens are outnumbering the 'rines across the rest of the map and can gain territory.
    RPK would reward skulk players to go to the place where the most 'rines and easiest kills are (where are lots of rines and little risk to get shot at? Where that huge tank is romping around and draws fire!) and discourage them to grab the territory that was left undefended because there are fewer 'rines and fewer kills to be made.
    It encourages an essential tool but doesn't encourage the goal.

    Rewarding the gain of territory itself by for example area-rewarding players for helping in killing or building RTs would reward both strategies - both going with the Onos if closer would be feasible as overpowering the marines next room would reap rewards for the won territory when capturing the RT there, as well as using the situation to gain territory elsewhere would reap the same reward though with <b>much</b> less frags. Also, it doesn't reward 'meaningless' frags that don't change anything about map control.

    Another game-changing strategy that was also wildly popular in NS1 too is for example the Ninja-PG-Sudden-Hive-Kill - skip the territory gain, teleport directly to goal, requires no frags to ninja into the hive and build a PG (In this case frags are actually detrimental to the goal as the Ninja would draw attention to himself), and no twitch skill to empty clips into a huge immobile sack of meat hanging from the ceiling, yet still changes and wins games.


    However, you are right in that I have constructed a purely hypothetical game description based on the alien team only knowing the goals of the game you have described. ("NS is about frags, frags allow you to get resources nodes to win the game" - that they had to frag something specific except the other team's players they just didn't know.)
    I apologize, as I should have marked the post with </sarcasm>.
  • beyond.wudgebeyond.wudge Join Date: 2012-10-19 Member: 162731Members
    edited November 2012
    Res for kills with caps and limits on how much res a player or team can accumulate is a different beast to straight res for kills. I think people underestimate just how controlled and distributed the PRes could be if the system is tweaked right.

    Also, this isn't strictly about skill or balance. This is about sexiness. This is about the game being awesome and being fun.

    The current resource model is not sexy. It is not passion arousing. It doesn't turn you on.

    It's cold, its clinical, its an accountant's bedroom fantasy.

    This game is <b>about</b> resources. If resources aren't fun then the core of the game isn't fun.

    <hr />

    Swiftspear, Starcraft 2 is a build order game. NS2 isn't. It can afford to go with it's resource model due to the number of factors involved in arriving at the mid-game or end game. So many buildings, so many units, so many choices.

    NS2 hasn't got remotely enough depth in its tech tree or map dynamics to go for the 'stable timings' emphasis. This is especially so with the reduction in each lifeform/marine loadout's combat potential which further standardises outcomes between more equal forces.

    I personally like many of the changes to NS2. I enjoy a more casual oriented and less one-man army focused game. However, the removal of res for kills I believe deprived the game of a vital element to make it feel kick ass.

    The game is about <b>resources</b>. We can see this by how they are instrumental in deciding who wins or loses the match. If resources are cold, clinical and predictable then the game will inherit that feel. Whatever is the key to winning a game will ultimately decide its flavour.

    <hr />

    Re: the Snowball effect.

    With limits and caps on the rate of PRes a player and a team can get from the res for kills mechanic you can effectively resolve this issue. In any construction/deconstruction game mix like NS2 and Starcraft you will have some kind of snowball. It's not a bad thing, it's part of the game.

    What causes the snowball is what matters as is what can stop it once it gets going.

    What player's found in NS1 is that the snowball was being caused too much by kills and not enough by strategy, map control (harvesters) or tech in the pubs.

    The system I propose in the opening post could be tweaked to effectively mitigate people's concern about snowballing without leaving res for kills teethless.

    Also, some counter-measures to snowballing like those included in popular RTS games could be included. A few well placed psi-storms in Starcraft 1 could turn a match around if you managed to pull the feat off. NS2 could implement some of these ambush/splash mechanisms which target the defining elements of a PRes heavy team without being contrived or cost-efficient/worth it/possible against an LMG/Skulk heavy composition.

    <hr />

    Lastly, I think this game needs to be clear about what it rewards. Whatever a leader/system rewards is what is grown by that system.

    If this game is about shooting/chomping things and your ability to shoot/chomp is linked to resources then conceptually it makes sense that you can gain resources by shooting/chomping things.

    Shooting/chomping things is the core 'action' by which you are exerting 'power' over things in the game. Decoupling it from the resource system is rather unintuitive.

    Teamplay is not about making individuals meaningless. If individuals have no real power then the <b>teamplay</b> is meaningless. The decision to work together becomes satisfying because people could have soloed instead.

    Indeed, a true teamplay game is about a series of powerful individuals coming together towards a common goal, it is not about people being cogs in a machine that makes them all go round.

    The biggest crime I think this game could be accused of committing is being too machine oriented and not enough about people being allowed to come together as a team. The exclusivity of building by the commander is an example of this.
  • tarquinbbtarquinbb Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166314Members
    edited November 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=2027322:date=Nov 18 2012, 12:04 AM:name=beyond.wudge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (beyond.wudge @ Nov 18 2012, 12:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027322"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Res for kills with caps and limits on how much res a player or team can accumulate is a different beast to straight res for kills. I think people underestimate just how controlled and distributed the PRes could be if the system is tweaked right.

    Also, this isn't strictly about skill or balance. This is about sexiness. This is about the game being awesome and being fun.

    The current resource model is not sexy. It is not passion arousing. It doesn't turn you on.

    It's cold, its clinical, its an accountant's bedroom fantasy.

    This game is <b>about</b> resources. If resources aren't fun then the core of the game isn't fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    so you think it's cool that capable players should have an incentive to farm the noobs on the other team, then he has infinite resources and can continually reroll as fade instantly even if his team have a small number of RT's ?

    your incentive should be to fight over RT's etc to gain territory... not to get cheap frags by camping noobs at the IP's 'till you collect enough coupons to buy your 'i win'-vessel of choice.

    i think a lot of you guys fighting to introduce RFK are forgetting that it was dropped from NS1 for a reason... it's not some universally awesome system which would rescue the game. it promotes sandbagging, camping, spawn killing, any kind of cheap killing and essentially gives superior players a bonus for doing stuff which would make the game suck.
  • DanielDDanielD Join Date: 2010-11-16 Member: 74960Members
    edited November 2012
    NS2 is cool BECAUSE you can win a game with your whole team having a negative k/d. Let's not make any moves in the other direction just because people's e-peens are flaccid.
  • beyond.wudgebeyond.wudge Join Date: 2012-10-19 Member: 162731Members
    edited November 2012
    <i>Tarquinbb</i>

    If the most PRes a player can get for himself is roughly 2 PRes per minute regardless of how much he kills (1 for first kill + 0.5 + 0.25 + 0.125 + etc) with 'lost' PRes given to his teammates I doubt farming 'noobs' is going to let him just 're-Fade' like you suggest.

    After the first kill or two the amounts becomes quite small and if he keeps killing it simply gets lower and lower. The sharpness of the decline could even be steeper should that be necessary to mitigate the impact of the multikills you envision.

    As for the issue of 'noobs' in the game, I think letting good players 'gift' weaker players PRes through their multikills is better than focusing the game around keeping good players from benefiting from those weaker players. Unless one side is far better than the other both sides will feature 'noobs' and issue will even out.

    Honestly, making your LMG marine or skulk give very little res (half or a quarter of the normal amount) could do far more to keep weaker players from hurting the team than trying to protect 'the poor children' from the pressure of learning to play the game.

    Same with giving the less combat capable marines and certain aliens more non-combat activities to keep them busy if they aren't any good at fighting yet.

    <i>DanielD</i>

    There are better ways of achieving that than keeping res for kills out of the game. Expanding the gameplay is wiser than munting it.
  • LuminothLuminoth Join Date: 2012-11-16 Member: 171739Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2027374:date=Nov 18 2012, 12:54 AM:name=DanielD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DanielD @ Nov 18 2012, 12:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027374"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 is cool BECAUSE you can win a game with your whole team having a negative k/d. Let's not make any moves in the other direction just because people's e-peens are flaccid.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You resumed in one phrase everything I wanted to said but would have taken to long to explain XD

    NS2 is a Team-based game and winning implies making sacrifices and sometimes have some players die, even alot sometime. As long as the team wins it doesn't matter that they die and don't frag. They're deaths weren't worth less than anyone elses frag.

    So RFK has no place in this game, but if you insist in having it, I say add RFDeath as well!
  • zachtoszachtos Join Date: 2004-04-22 Member: 28078Awaiting Authorization, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited November 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=2025256:date=Nov 15 2012, 10:23 PM:name=Shrimm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrimm @ Nov 15 2012, 10:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025256"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When will people stop beating a dead horse? RFK is a not a good thing to have and has been talked to death on these forums.

    Pros of RFK:
    -gives you mild satisfaction on getting kills.
    -Holds your hand and tells you how great you're doing!

    Cons of RFK:
    -Makes good players better
    -makes bad players 'feeders'
    -The best of players would "bind X kill" and always press X before the enemy can get the last hit.
    -Promotes cowboy play by letting you feel like you're actually accomplishing something by running ahead without your team.
    -Screws with balance of the game
    -Alienates newer players even further
    - Etc. Etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    +1
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