What's really surprising is that we've seen no changes to the fade in any of the recent patches. Late game, fade is probably the worst choice as an evolution. Risks are too high for their cost. People loved the NS1 fade because of it's high skill ceiling and it's role as the jack-of-all-trades on the aliens. I just want to hear one of the devs discuss why they took so much away from the fade but kept it's cost the same.
<!--quoteo(post=2032671:date=Nov 23 2012, 03:38 AM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Underwhelmed @ Nov 23 2012, 03:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032671"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Against good Marines, the Fade is only useful for roaming the map and picking off/weakening solo/duo Marines without shotguns. It's not a matter of l2p - 250/50 is 350 effective hp, meaning a LMG at w0 will kill you in 35 bullets. That's 70% of a LMG clip. Against two Marines, each one only has to put in 18 bullets. You can literally die to two solid SG hits if Marines have weapons upgrades - ask yourself how much time it takes for a shotgun to fire twice. The Fade's fragility severely limits what situations it can jump into and reasonably expect to survive. It doesn't matter how good your movement is because there are limits to how much damage you can juke. The only time it's really useful is when there's a large disparity in player skill.
Let's not even get into "hit-and-run". Assuming the Fade can actually survive going in, landing a few hits, and running out, he now has to get healed... meanwhile, the damage he done is healed by the Armory before the Fade can even finish healing and going back in for another exciting round of Russian Roulette.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is pretty much what I've been thinking through the numbers.
If we go back to NS1, a big deal of why fade worked so nice was that it sat in a sweet spot where it had just enough HP to have reliable engagements rather than having to rely almost completely on not getting hit. A lot of the time you could actually engage on your own terms rather than waiting for an opening.
Now with the new pres system the fade can't really sit in that position anymore. It's too small of an investment for the team to be as good as in NS1. Meanwhile it still remains a sizeable investment for a single player, which leaves the lifeform in a somewhat odd position.
I dont think there is a problem with fade.. People that say one jetpack-shotgunner wins from a fade is not a very good fade player, or a very good jetpack-shotgunner :P
If you have two equaly skilled players my money is on the fade!
<!--quoteo(post=2032795:date=Nov 23 2012, 05:30 AM:name=Sammey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sammey @ Nov 23 2012, 05:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032795"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont think there is a problem with fade.. People that say one jetpack-shotgunner wins from a fade is not a very good fade player, or a very good jetpack-shotgunner :P
If you have two equaly skilled players my money is on the fade!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But what's the point in having to pay 50 res for a lifeform that's only reliable in 1vs1 situations? I'd rather try my luck with a skulk for 0 res. Or a lerk for 30 res, which is arguably as effective as a fade in taking out lone marines and has more flexibility.
Its still pretty hard to kill them even with 2 Marines. They def not broken. I like them too and the fights with marines are interessting and 2 vs 1 works in 80% of the cases for me as Fade !! As Marine i ###### hate them.
Fades are not broken. The killing machine role from NS1 ( cause onos was just the icing on the cake for aliens ) moved to something else : a hit and run role against lonely marine ( > no more single builder, no more single marine harassing one point ) that's it.
Old NS1 players have trouble dealing with that ...
The only thing that needs working I would agree on is the forward armour healing armories ( which completely defeat the concept of hit and running ) , the relative cost of the fade ( make it 45-40 ) and the late game scalabitily ( there should be a way for the fade to ignore marine armour, a late game research or an upgrade ).
<!--quoteo(post=2032819:date=Nov 23 2012, 07:47 AM:name=BoBiNoU)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BoBiNoU @ Nov 23 2012, 07:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032819"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fades are not broken. The killing machine role from NS1 ( cause onos was just the icing on the cake for aliens ) moved to something else : a hit and run role against lonely marine ( > no more single builder, no more single marine harassing one point ) that's it.
Old NS1 players have trouble dealing with that ...
The only thing that needs working I would agree on is the forward armour healing armories ( which completely defeat the concept of hit and running ) , the relative cost of the fade ( make it 45-40 ) and the late game scalabitily ( there should be a way for the fade to ignore marine armour, a late game research or an upgrade ).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Lowering the cost of Fade will not fix it.
<!--quoteo(post=2032819:date=Nov 23 2012, 11:47 AM:name=BoBiNoU)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BoBiNoU @ Nov 23 2012, 11:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032819"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fades are not broken. The killing machine role from NS1 ( cause onos was just the icing on the cake for aliens ) moved to something else : a hit and run role against lonely marine ( > no more single builder, no more single marine harassing one point ) that's it.
Old NS1 players have trouble dealing with that ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that, certainly in pub matches, I'd use a skulk to deal with a lone marine - it's not a job to risk/waste 2/3 of an onos or 1JP/SG + 1 LMG/JP.
I can see various changes that might work: - the fade could be given a genuinely useful role. I have no idea what that role is - i.e. if sentries were boosted, the obvious counter is lerk rather than fade... - the fade coule be boosted, but somehow limited (to prevent the entire alien teaming going fade and auto-winning). - the onos could be moved into a different category. There would then be 4 'general combat' units purchaseable with pres (with the value of each unit varying by player), and a separate siege unit.
<!--quoteo(post=2032823:date=Nov 23 2012, 12:55 PM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Nov 23 2012, 12:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032823"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lowering the cost of Fade will not fix it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, its not a solution.
But devils advocate here, it would increase the price difference between fades and oni to 35 instead of 25 and fades can be fielded more early. And losing one is still painful but less painful than losing the 50 res. :)
I hate the all-in approach when blinking around to lose a potential 50 pres. I'm more of a lerk/gorge player for this very reason.
<!--quoteo(post=2032795:date=Nov 23 2012, 11:30 AM:name=Sammey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sammey @ Nov 23 2012, 11:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032795"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont think there is a problem with fade.. People that say one jetpack-shotgunner wins from a fade is not a very good fade player, or a very good jetpack-shotgunner :P
If you have two equaly skilled players my money is on the fade!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are wrong, the sg/jp marine will win most 1on1 situations (by 'win' I don't necessarily mean killing the fade, but also scaring him away, because of low hp).
If you are not harrassing the marine econemy, you should not attack alone as a fade (actual with every lifeform). Even assault rifle marines can be dangerous when they get meds and nano.
<!--quoteo(post=2032671:date=Nov 23 2012, 03:38 AM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Underwhelmed @ Nov 23 2012, 03:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032671"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Against good Marines, the Fade is only useful for roaming the map and picking off/weakening solo/duo Marines without shotguns. It's not a matter of l2p - 250/50 is 350 effective hp, meaning a LMG at w0 will kill you in 35 bullets. That's 70% of a LMG clip. Against two Marines, each one only has to put in 18 bullets. You can literally die to two solid SG hits if Marines have weapons upgrades - ask yourself how much time it takes for a shotgun to fire twice. The Fade's fragility severely limits what situations it can jump into and reasonably expect to survive. It doesn't matter how good your movement is because there are limits to how much damage you can juke. The only time it's really useful is when there's a large disparity in player skill.
Let's not even get into "hit-and-run". Assuming the Fade can actually survive going in, landing a few hits, and running out, he now has to get healed... meanwhile, the damage he done is healed by the Armory before the Fade can even finish healing and going back in for another exciting round of Russian Roulette.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you're looking at it from the wrong perspective... "ohhh the marine just gets healed again". has it occurred to you that maybe you're trying to kill a marine who's smarter than you? because if you keep going back for more shotgun and being forced to back out when he has an armory - sounds like kinda dumb fade play.
please note that good players use the fade all the time - so unless you think you're better than those players; i think you need to stop blaming the fade and start blaming yourself.
you seem to have created a smoke screen with your theorycrafting to explain your terrible fade performance. yeah a marine can theoretically kill a fade with a single AR clip, but when does that ever happen? if you're forgetting to calculate human error then you're effectively saying that dodging/movement is absolutely useless which is pure bs. dodging is as important as aiming, even for marines who have almost no dodging ability.
<!--quoteo(post=2032831:date=Nov 23 2012, 12:19 PM:name=Bicsum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bicsum @ Nov 23 2012, 12:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032831"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are wrong, the sg/jp marine will win most 1on1 situations (by 'win' I don't necessarily mean killing the fade, but also scaring him away, because of low hp).
If you are not harrassing the marine econemy, you should not attack alone as a fade (actual with every lifeform). Even assault rifle marines can be dangerous when they get meds and nano.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so what you're saying is that it's impossible for a marine to win a 1v1 situation, because the fade can retreat. but if the table is turned and the marine misses a few shots, then it's impossible for the marine to retreat so he's guaranteed to lose.
sounds pretty well balanced to me. i think you need to try a different angle if you want to convince me that fade is too weak; assuming that is the message you're trying to convey.
edit: oh i see you mentioned nano + medpack specifically to AR... doesn't matter, there's no reason fade should lose to AR - you can just dodge like crazy until he reloads and then you have a free kill. if you watch your hp then you can probably escape even if he's aimbotting.
so what you're saying is that it's impossible for a marine to win a 1v1 situation, because the fade can retreat. but if the table is turned and the marine misses a few shots, then it's impossible for the marine to retreat so he's guaranteed to lose.
sounds pretty well balanced to me. i think you need to try a different angle if you want to convince me that fade is too weak; assuming that is the message you're trying to convey.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tarquin, I think you're clinging a bit too much to statistics and numbers and yeah we want "hard evidence", but some parameters and context is missing from that evidence making it anything but trustworthy to rely solely upon. I'm trying to let go of these numbers myself so I know.
so what you're saying is that it's impossible for a marine to win a 1v1 situation, because the fade can retreat. but if the table is turned and the marine misses a few shots, then it's impossible for the marine to retreat so he's guaranteed to lose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did not understand this part.
<!--quoteo(post=2032836:date=Nov 23 2012, 01:28 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 23 2012, 01:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032836"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->sounds pretty well balanced to me. i think you need to try a different angle if you want to convince me that fade is too weak; assuming that is the message you're trying to convey.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't say the fade is too weak. I'm just saying don't attack alone as a fade.
so what you're saying is that it's impossible for a marine to win a 1v1 situation, because the fade can retreat. but if the table is turned and the marine misses a few shots, then it's impossible for the marine to retreat so he's guaranteed to lose.
sounds pretty well balanced to me. i think you need to try a different angle if you want to convince me that fade is too weak; assuming that is the message you're trying to convey.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I may be being somewhat dimwitted, but your logic (or at least its portrayal) seems utterly flawed. I actually don't understand what you're trying to say in this post.
It may well be the case that in the upper echelons of NS2 play, the fade is a fearsome warrior who laughs in the face of 2 shotgunners. This is simply NOT the case in the vast majority of public servers with us 'normal' players. I won't claim to be good with the fade: I haven't played it enough yet. On pubs with newbie marines, yes it seems pretty good. That's, in my experience, due to the marines being idiots and all running off on their own. As the standard of teamplay gradually increases (we hope!), the fade will find fewer of these easy pickings. Going 20 0 as fade (yes, I have done this... against newbie marines...) is not indicative of that fade contributing really effectively to the alien team. It's indicative of a bunch of rambo marines who can't shoot, and a fade who understands at least the basics of hit and run.
Every time I get 50 pres, I'm thinking: do I go fade now? Marines have at least w1/a1, probably higher... Or just wait for a little while longer and roflstomp... I really *should* make more use of the fade, but it's such a high investment for the massively increased risk of getting killed and losing it compared to the onos (at least in normal public servers) - one good shotgunner who puts two good hits on you, and that's 50 res lost and no onos for very long time...
Once you put teamplay into the equation (which should ALWAYS be in the equation!!), then the fade doesn't look quite so weak, but I still find it a very difficult sell. Dropping the cost somewhat will go a small way to improve the situation, but doesn't feel quite the right solution to me. I can't offer any good suggestions on that front yet, though!
The fade feels like UWE don't know what role they want the fade to fill. I've been finding the lerk is just as good (if not better) at doing what a fade should do.
Scouring the map quickly picking off lone marines? Celerity lerk is amazing at this. harassing/annoying groups of marines, hit and run style? Again lerk is great at this with spores. Want to take marines head on? save for onos.
<!--quoteo(post=2032846:date=Nov 23 2012, 12:54 PM:name=Reeke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Reeke @ Nov 23 2012, 12:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032846"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fade feels like UWE don't know what role they want the fade to fill. I've been finding the lerk is just as good (if not better) at doing what a fade should do.
Scouring the map quickly picking off lone marines? Celerity lerk is amazing at this. harassing/annoying groups of marines, hit and run style? Again lerk is great at this with spores. Want to take marines head on? save for onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is kinda the way i feel.
but i have a feeling that once you reach a certain level of skill, the lerk becomes vastly inferior to the fade at those tasks and takes on more of a support role. this is because a single shotgunner should easily destroy an aggressive lerk (one good shotgun blast and then some pistol shots), and a single AR should easily beat lerk spikes at range.
obviously i'm speculating because i haven't played at a high skill level, but fade seems far more resilient than a lerk against marines with competent aim. not 'indestructible' resilient, but significantly more resilient than a lerk - which can allow the more expensive fade to pay for itself.
They should make the fade tougher or let it be fragile BUT agile! If you play fade for a while you don't look at your energy because you get a feeling of what you can do and for how long untill you have to retreat. But this feeling is betraying me lately very often. I think it is because of the blink energy cost increase. Now I run out of energy a bit too fast. Yes you can argue that I can adjust to that and train more. But I don't want to. I don't want to play yet another class where you have to worry 80% of the time that you missed the right moment to retreat. A fade should be fun to play and it should be somewhat reliable -> therefor it should stay longer in a fight or should be faster in retreat.
Right now I get more kills as skulk as as fade, because I can attack more vicious. And when I have enough res for a fade, most likely the team won't have blink or enough/fitting upgrades. That means when I personally think I can go fade and survive a few minutes, I have already 65 res and could as well wait for an onos...
Just for the discussion: Make the fade tough and agile but reduce its damage. So it is fun to play (beside less kills) and it would fit good into early/mid game. But then it would need sth like focus or acid rocket to make it usefull in late game. But making it tough, agile and keep the damage as it is, it might be too powerful. So what is the best path to make the fade fun to play and still balanced? I don't know, but I know that there were builds in the beta that were way more fun to play than the recent builds. I have the feeling that balance around a class is out of control. Instead of making small adjustment to finetune a class, there are as well changes in other aspects of the game that intensify the changes making them way overboard.
I just hope that we will have a game that is fun to play in every situation, let's say in one year. I don't need a rine alien win ratio of 50/50 as long as both sides have fun playing, even in defeat...
Spikes when aimed are surprisingly strong, especially when the marines are busy dealing with some skulks or other lifeforms. You can still dish out decent damage without having the risk of getting a lucky shotgun blast. Less damage received means you can stick around longer instead of the fade who has to retreat to the hive over and over.
Do you expect a ultimate killing maschine as Fade ?!?
dont grow your Fade in a early stadium.....wait for invisible, armor and speed. Attack with others. I guess most ppl here want the ultimate killer and are pretty pissed if they get killed by marines bc the player thought he get these 3 marines easily.
try this first: Increase heal/armor to 275/100. Incl. Carapace --> 275/175. Next step : 300/125 incl. Carapace --> 300/200
Again : NS1 fade was 50 res but 300/150 incl. carapace ---> 300/250! Fade abilitys were also way stronger in NS1. They had blink, selfheal, and a ranged AOE-atack. The new fade is just a fail-design.
And yes, you can compare the direct fights in NS1/NS2 very well. Everyone who says the fade is balanced or the whole game is balanced(those hardcore fanboys-retards) have no idea of gamedesign.
<!--quoteo(post=2032905:date=Nov 23 2012, 03:06 PM:name=Mr.Greedy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr.Greedy @ Nov 23 2012, 03:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032905"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->try this first: Increase heal/armor to 275/100. Incl. Carapace --> 275/175. Next step : 300/125 incl. Carapace --> 300/200
Again : NS1 fade was 50 res but 300/150 incl. carapace ---> 300/250! Fade abilitys were also way stronger in NS1. They had blink, selfheal, and a ranged AOE-atack. The new fade is just a fail-design.
And yes, you can compare the direct fights in NS1/NS2 very well. Everyone who says the fade is balanced or the whole game is balanced(those hardcore fanboys-retards) have no idea of gamedesign.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you're balancing the NS2 fade based on a totally irrelevant game, and claim to have an idea on game design... ?
imo humans should have 20000 hp, because my character in guildwars 2 has 20000 hp!
<!--quoteo(post=2032913:date=Nov 23 2012, 07:37 AM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 23 2012, 07:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032913"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you're balancing the NS2 fade based on a totally irrelevant game, and claim to have an idea on game design... ?
imo humans should have 20000 hp, because my character in guildwars 2 has 20000 hp!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The whole gamedesign is primary based on NS1. To think that NS2 is a totaly different game is just s***** like hell.
The developers themselves wrote sometimes in there own patchnotes something like "...similiar to NS1" . "ability works now like in NS1"
You want to know the truth? The Aliencomm and some buildings are the biggest change where I can say "thats realy new". Same to the Flamethrower,drifter,macs. Nearly ANYTHING of NS2 are just balance-changes. Uhhhh a commstation needs ressources now(was energy before).TOTALY new feature to the game. They have changed celerity speed. TOTALY new. Siege waepons are MOVEABLE NOW. Extremly new. They drop 1/3 of all alien-abillitys. wow cool. You cant get 2 abilitys from the same hive . genius new feature that I never saw in any game.They changed...(endless list)
Fades basically have to be worse than they were in NS1 because of the new res system, you would have 4+ fades coming out at basically the same time in every game. In NS1 you only had 1 fade emerge in the early midgame and it needed to be extremely hard to kill because it was the only thing keeping marines away from murdering all the skulks. Comparing the two games directly is fine but you need to bear in mind the major structural differences between them.
<!--quoteo(post=2032882:date=Nov 23 2012, 09:09 AM:name=Ghostshell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ghostshell @ Nov 23 2012, 09:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032882"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you expect a ultimate killing maschine as Fade ?!?
dont grow your Fade in a early stadium.....wait for invisible, armor and speed. Attack with others. I guess most ppl here want the ultimate killer and are pretty pissed if they get killed by marines bc the player thought he get these 3 marines easily.
Thats how it reads in my eyes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By the time you get all the right upgrades and blink, and fade is actually decent, you'll already have (near) enough res to get onos. Can you give me one good reason not to go for onos?
IMO, there are three things that need to be done to the fade to make it more balanced.
1.) Increase Carapace armor by ~20. Do not touch default fade regen/armor 2.) Decrease res cost to 45 from 50. I've seen many, many games where fades come too slow, too late. A level 2 upgraded weapons marine team should be able to easily kill fades. 45 Res makes mid-game fade relevant for a little longer. 3.) Rework Vortex. Vortex is the the most worthless 3-hive ability. It makes end-game fades useless. Bringing back the NS1 version of 3-hive fade would be desired (or a band-aid approach). This ability allowed fades to shoot a long range projectile based on energy. Without a 3-hive ability, fades are worthless end-game.
OR
1.) Change shotgun spread to more random and more area. This will cause all shotgun pellets not to hit the fade if shot dead on. I don't really approve of this idea though, because it will nerf the shotgun's ability to kill skulks. 1v1 a shotgun should win vs a skulk 80%+ of the time.
<b>Note: the most annoying problem i have currently, is when 1v1 a fade loses to a shotgun from 2 shotgun blasts. Or separately, when you just start to hear a dual minigun go off, you are dead instantly.</b>
I actually can't believe that I'm reading people say the NS2 fade is fine. It's only fine if you are trying to kill players that are so bad they can't even hit a barn door at close range.
As marine I have no problems solo'ing a fade with an LMG by strafing and dodging attacks and he's easily dead to one magazine and some pistol rounds. This is not the way it should be. A fade should totally dominate a solo marine. This is the way it should be because it forces marines to move in squads and attack as a team - isn't that what NS is supposed to be, a team play based game?
There was nothing wrong with the NS1 fade. The only thing wrong with it was the people who whined about the fade because they were too lowskill. The NS2 fade needs to be the same as NS1 fade. It's a completely useless class forcing anyone with sense to just save for the most skill-less lifeform in NS2 - the Onos. Onos actually took skill in NS1.
Part of the problem with Alien balance is that the Onos is too good that any newb can dominate with it, while the fade is so bad that only the best players can even kill bad players with it. This means that there are just more Onos because everyone saves for one. By the time everyone gets 75 res the game is over.
<!--quoteo(post=2032914:date=Nov 23 2012, 03:44 PM:name=Mr.Greedy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr.Greedy @ Nov 23 2012, 03:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032914"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The whole gamedesign is primary based on NS1. To think that NS2 is a totaly different game is just s***** like hell.
The developers themselves wrote sometimes in there own patchnotes something like "...similiar to NS1" . "ability works now like in NS1"
You want to know the truth? The Aliencomm and some buildings are the biggest change where I can say "thats realy new". Same to the Flamethrower,drifter,macs. Nearly ANYTHING of NS2 are just balance-changes. Uhhhh a commstation needs ressources now(was energy before).TOTALY new feature to the game. They have changed celerity speed. TOTALY new. Siege waepons are MOVEABLE NOW. Extremly new. They drop 1/3 of all alien-abillitys. wow cool. You cant get 2 abilitys from the same hive . genius new feature that I never saw in any game.They changed...(endless list)
Man, wake up -_-<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
going by your logic, the fact that siege weapons are moveable is massively game breaking and needs an urgent fix to be like NS1 siege weapons.
ns2 might well be based on ns1, but sooooo many factors are different - the engine, physics, movement, dps etc. all of these factors dramatically change the balance dynamic and therefore just 'copy pasting' stuff from ns1 is harmful from a balance perspective.
for example there is no HMG, so you effectively want to introduce a foreign body into a delicate environment. the previous analogy works as a vulgar euphemism and also in the sense of biosecurity; taking animals/plants through customs to places like australia - you can get arrested for that.
i cried the same nostalgic tears when ut2003 came out, totally different; and i believed HORRIBLE compared to ut classic. then ut3 came out which took a step back towards the 'feel' of ut classic, that game was a massive failure. sometimes you have to make an effort to keep up with the times.
<!--quoteo(post=2032913:date=Nov 23 2012, 11:37 AM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 23 2012, 11:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032913"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you're balancing the NS2 fade based on a totally irrelevant game, and claim to have an idea on game design... ?
imo humans should have 20000 hp, because my character in guildwars 2 has 20000 hp!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS2 is a remake of NS1, not a sequel. All the alien races with their roles are still there, even the damage values are similar. Thing is that because UWE tried to do something different with the lerk by giving him spikes which are as deadly to a marine as a rifle to a skulk and he has more close quarters potential because he needs it to gas. The fade can do the same thing as a lerk but he is big and bulky and has to take some damage as his attack isn't very strong so he can't expect to 1v1 shotguns and it takes less than an upgraded rifle magazine to kill him so he can't fool around with rifle marines either. So when you are a fade you are basically a lerk with celerity, no spikes, gas, or umbra, can take a bit more damage but it doesn't matter because you're 10 times larger, and you cost 20 more resources. The best that can happen is that fades get more armour but it still won't solve the problem of them being a lifeform that plays similar to the lerk.
Comments
Let's not even get into "hit-and-run". Assuming the Fade can actually survive going in, landing a few hits, and running out, he now has to get healed... meanwhile, the damage he done is healed by the Armory before the Fade can even finish healing and going back in for another exciting round of Russian Roulette.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is pretty much what I've been thinking through the numbers.
If we go back to NS1, a big deal of why fade worked so nice was that it sat in a sweet spot where it had just enough HP to have reliable engagements rather than having to rely almost completely on not getting hit. A lot of the time you could actually engage on your own terms rather than waiting for an opening.
Now with the new pres system the fade can't really sit in that position anymore. It's too small of an investment for the team to be as good as in NS1. Meanwhile it still remains a sizeable investment for a single player, which leaves the lifeform in a somewhat odd position.
People that say one jetpack-shotgunner wins from a fade is not a very good fade player, or a very good jetpack-shotgunner :P
If you have two equaly skilled players my money is on the fade!
People that say one jetpack-shotgunner wins from a fade is not a very good fade player, or a very good jetpack-shotgunner :P
If you have two equaly skilled players my money is on the fade!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But what's the point in having to pay 50 res for a lifeform that's only reliable in 1vs1 situations? I'd rather try my luck with a skulk for 0 res. Or a lerk for 30 res, which is arguably as effective as a fade in taking out lone marines and has more flexibility.
Its still pretty hard to kill them even with 2 Marines. They def not broken. I like them too and the fights with marines are interessting and 2 vs 1 works in 80% of the cases for me as Fade !!
As Marine i ###### hate them.
The killing machine role from NS1 ( cause onos was just the icing on the cake for aliens ) moved to something else : a hit and run role against lonely marine ( > no more single builder, no more single marine harassing one point ) that's it.
Old NS1 players have trouble dealing with that ...
The only thing that needs working I would agree on is the forward armour healing armories ( which completely defeat the concept of hit and running ) , the relative cost of the fade ( make it 45-40 ) and the late game scalabitily ( there should be a way for the fade to ignore marine armour, a late game research or an upgrade ).
The killing machine role from NS1 ( cause onos was just the icing on the cake for aliens ) moved to something else : a hit and run role against lonely marine ( > no more single builder, no more single marine harassing one point ) that's it.
Old NS1 players have trouble dealing with that ...
The only thing that needs working I would agree on is the forward armour healing armories ( which completely defeat the concept of hit and running ) , the relative cost of the fade ( make it 45-40 ) and the late game scalabitily ( there should be a way for the fade to ignore marine armour, a late game research or an upgrade ).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lowering the cost of Fade will not fix it.
The killing machine role from NS1 ( cause onos was just the icing on the cake for aliens ) moved to something else : a hit and run role against lonely marine ( > no more single builder, no more single marine harassing one point ) that's it.
Old NS1 players have trouble dealing with that ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that, certainly in pub matches, I'd use a skulk to deal with a lone marine - it's not a job to risk/waste 2/3 of an onos or 1JP/SG + 1 LMG/JP.
I can see various changes that might work:
- the fade could be given a genuinely useful role. I have no idea what that role is - i.e. if sentries were boosted, the obvious counter is lerk rather than fade...
- the fade coule be boosted, but somehow limited (to prevent the entire alien teaming going fade and auto-winning).
- the onos could be moved into a different category. There would then be 4 'general combat' units purchaseable with pres (with the value of each unit varying by player), and a separate siege unit.
I agree, its not a solution.
But devils advocate here, it would increase the price difference between fades and oni to 35 instead of 25 and fades can be fielded more early. And losing one is still painful but less painful than losing the 50 res. :)
I hate the all-in approach when blinking around to lose a potential 50 pres. I'm more of a lerk/gorge player for this very reason.
People that say one jetpack-shotgunner wins from a fade is not a very good fade player, or a very good jetpack-shotgunner :P
If you have two equaly skilled players my money is on the fade!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are wrong, the sg/jp marine will win most 1on1 situations (by 'win' I don't necessarily mean killing the fade, but also scaring him away, because of low hp).
If you are not harrassing the marine econemy, you should not attack alone as a fade (actual with every lifeform). Even assault rifle marines can be dangerous when they get meds and nano.
Let's not even get into "hit-and-run". Assuming the Fade can actually survive going in, landing a few hits, and running out, he now has to get healed... meanwhile, the damage he done is healed by the Armory before the Fade can even finish healing and going back in for another exciting round of Russian Roulette.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you're looking at it from the wrong perspective... "ohhh the marine just gets healed again". has it occurred to you that maybe you're trying to kill a marine who's smarter than you? because if you keep going back for more shotgun and being forced to back out when he has an armory - sounds like kinda dumb fade play.
please note that good players use the fade all the time - so unless you think you're better than those players; i think you need to stop blaming the fade and start blaming yourself.
you seem to have created a smoke screen with your theorycrafting to explain your terrible fade performance. yeah a marine can theoretically kill a fade with a single AR clip, but when does that ever happen? if you're forgetting to calculate human error then you're effectively saying that dodging/movement is absolutely useless which is pure bs. dodging is as important as aiming, even for marines who have almost no dodging ability.
If you are not harrassing the marine econemy, you should not attack alone as a fade (actual with every lifeform). Even assault rifle marines can be dangerous when they get meds and nano.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
jetpack 10
shotgun 20
nano 5
medpack 1-5
<b><u>total</b></u> 36-40
so what you're saying is that it's impossible for a marine to win a 1v1 situation, because the fade can retreat. but if the table is turned and the marine misses a few shots, then it's impossible for the marine to retreat so he's guaranteed to lose.
sounds pretty well balanced to me. i think you need to try a different angle if you want to convince me that fade is too weak; assuming that is the message you're trying to convey.
edit: oh i see you mentioned nano + medpack specifically to AR... doesn't matter, there's no reason fade should lose to AR - you can just dodge like crazy until he reloads and then you have a free kill. if you watch your hp then you can probably escape even if he's aimbotting.
shotgun 20
nano 5
medpack 1-5
<b><u>total</b></u> 36-40
so what you're saying is that it's impossible for a marine to win a 1v1 situation, because the fade can retreat. but if the table is turned and the marine misses a few shots, then it's impossible for the marine to retreat so he's guaranteed to lose.
sounds pretty well balanced to me. i think you need to try a different angle if you want to convince me that fade is too weak; assuming that is the message you're trying to convey.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tarquin, I think you're clinging a bit too much to statistics and numbers and yeah we want "hard evidence", but some parameters and context is missing from that evidence making it anything but trustworthy to rely solely upon. I'm trying to let go of these numbers myself so I know.
shotgun 20
nano 5
medpack 1-5
<b><u>total</b></u> 36-40
so what you're saying is that it's impossible for a marine to win a 1v1 situation, because the fade can retreat. but if the table is turned and the marine misses a few shots, then it's impossible for the marine to retreat so he's guaranteed to lose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did not understand this part.
<!--quoteo(post=2032836:date=Nov 23 2012, 01:28 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 23 2012, 01:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032836"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->sounds pretty well balanced to me. i think you need to try a different angle if you want to convince me that fade is too weak; assuming that is the message you're trying to convey.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't say the fade is too weak. I'm just saying don't attack alone as a fade.
shotgun 20
nano 5
medpack 1-5
<b><u>total</b></u> 36-40
so what you're saying is that it's impossible for a marine to win a 1v1 situation, because the fade can retreat. but if the table is turned and the marine misses a few shots, then it's impossible for the marine to retreat so he's guaranteed to lose.
sounds pretty well balanced to me. i think you need to try a different angle if you want to convince me that fade is too weak; assuming that is the message you're trying to convey.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I may be being somewhat dimwitted, but your logic (or at least its portrayal) seems utterly flawed. I actually don't understand what you're trying to say in this post.
It may well be the case that in the upper echelons of NS2 play, the fade is a fearsome warrior who laughs in the face of 2 shotgunners. This is simply NOT the case in the vast majority of public servers with us 'normal' players. I won't claim to be good with the fade: I haven't played it enough yet. On pubs with newbie marines, yes it seems pretty good. That's, in my experience, due to the marines being idiots and all running off on their own. As the standard of teamplay gradually increases (we hope!), the fade will find fewer of these easy pickings. Going 20 0 as fade (yes, I have done this... against newbie marines...) is not indicative of that fade contributing really effectively to the alien team. It's indicative of a bunch of rambo marines who can't shoot, and a fade who understands at least the basics of hit and run.
Every time I get 50 pres, I'm thinking: do I go fade now? Marines have at least w1/a1, probably higher... Or just wait for a little while longer and roflstomp...
I really *should* make more use of the fade, but it's such a high investment for the massively increased risk of getting killed and losing it compared to the onos (at least in normal public servers) - one good shotgunner who puts two good hits on you, and that's 50 res lost and no onos for very long time...
Once you put teamplay into the equation (which should ALWAYS be in the equation!!), then the fade doesn't look quite so weak, but I still find it a very difficult sell. Dropping the cost somewhat will go a small way to improve the situation, but doesn't feel quite the right solution to me. I can't offer any good suggestions on that front yet, though!
Roo
Scouring the map quickly picking off lone marines? Celerity lerk is amazing at this.
harassing/annoying groups of marines, hit and run style? Again lerk is great at this with spores.
Want to take marines head on? save for onos.
Scouring the map quickly picking off lone marines? Celerity lerk is amazing at this.
harassing/annoying groups of marines, hit and run style? Again lerk is great at this with spores.
Want to take marines head on? save for onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is kinda the way i feel.
but i have a feeling that once you reach a certain level of skill, the lerk becomes vastly inferior to the fade at those tasks and takes on more of a support role. this is because a single shotgunner should easily destroy an aggressive lerk (one good shotgun blast and then some pistol shots), and a single AR should easily beat lerk spikes at range.
obviously i'm speculating because i haven't played at a high skill level, but fade seems far more resilient than a lerk against marines with competent aim. not 'indestructible' resilient, but significantly more resilient than a lerk - which can allow the more expensive fade to pay for itself.
Right now I get more kills as skulk as as fade, because I can attack more vicious. And when I have enough res for a fade, most likely the team won't have blink or enough/fitting upgrades. That means when I personally think I can go fade and survive a few minutes, I have already 65 res and could as well wait for an onos...
Just for the discussion: Make the fade tough and agile but reduce its damage. So it is fun to play (beside less kills) and it would fit good into early/mid game. But then it would need sth like focus or acid rocket to make it usefull in late game. But making it tough, agile and keep the damage as it is, it might be too powerful. So what is the best path to make the fade fun to play and still balanced? I don't know, but I know that there were builds in the beta that were way more fun to play than the recent builds. I have the feeling that balance around a class is out of control. Instead of making small adjustment to finetune a class, there are as well changes in other aspects of the game that intensify the changes making them way overboard.
I just hope that we will have a game that is fun to play in every situation, let's say in one year. I don't need a rine alien win ratio of 50/50 as long as both sides have fun playing, even in defeat...
dont grow your Fade in a early stadium.....wait for invisible, armor and speed. Attack with others. I guess most ppl here want the ultimate killer and are pretty pissed if they get killed by marines bc the player thought he get these 3 marines easily.
Thats how it reads in my eyes
Again : NS1 fade was 50 res but 300/150 incl. carapace ---> 300/250! Fade abilitys were also way stronger in NS1. They had blink, selfheal, and a ranged AOE-atack. The new fade is just a fail-design.
And yes, you can compare the direct fights in NS1/NS2 very well. Everyone who says the fade is balanced or the whole game is balanced(those hardcore fanboys-retards) have no idea of gamedesign.
Again : NS1 fade was 50 res but 300/150 incl. carapace ---> 300/250! Fade abilitys were also way stronger in NS1. They had blink, selfheal, and a ranged AOE-atack. The new fade is just a fail-design.
And yes, you can compare the direct fights in NS1/NS2 very well. Everyone who says the fade is balanced or the whole game is balanced(those hardcore fanboys-retards) have no idea of gamedesign.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you're balancing the NS2 fade based on a totally irrelevant game, and claim to have an idea on game design... ?
imo humans should have 20000 hp, because my character in guildwars 2 has 20000 hp!
imo humans should have 20000 hp, because my character in guildwars 2 has 20000 hp!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The whole gamedesign is primary based on NS1. To think that NS2 is a totaly different game is just s***** like hell.
The developers themselves wrote sometimes in there own patchnotes something like "...similiar to NS1" . "ability works now like in NS1"
You want to know the truth? The Aliencomm and some buildings are the biggest change where I can say "thats realy new". Same to the Flamethrower,drifter,macs. Nearly ANYTHING of NS2 are just balance-changes. Uhhhh a commstation needs ressources now(was energy before).TOTALY new feature to the game. They have changed celerity speed. TOTALY new. Siege waepons are MOVEABLE NOW. Extremly new. They drop 1/3 of all alien-abillitys. wow cool. You cant get 2 abilitys from the same hive . genius new feature that I never saw in any game.They changed...(endless list)
Man, wake up -_-
dont grow your Fade in a early stadium.....wait for invisible, armor and speed. Attack with others. I guess most ppl here want the ultimate killer and are pretty pissed if they get killed by marines bc the player thought he get these 3 marines easily.
Thats how it reads in my eyes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By the time you get all the right upgrades and blink, and fade is actually decent, you'll already have (near) enough res to get onos. Can you give me one good reason not to go for onos?
1.) Increase Carapace armor by ~20. Do not touch default fade regen/armor
2.) Decrease res cost to 45 from 50. I've seen many, many games where fades come too slow, too late. A level 2 upgraded weapons marine team should be able to easily kill fades. 45 Res makes mid-game fade relevant for a little longer.
3.) Rework Vortex. Vortex is the the most worthless 3-hive ability. It makes end-game fades useless. Bringing back the NS1 version of 3-hive fade would be desired (or a band-aid approach). This ability allowed fades to shoot a long range projectile based on energy. Without a 3-hive ability, fades are worthless end-game.
OR
1.) Change shotgun spread to more random and more area. This will cause all shotgun pellets not to hit the fade if shot dead on. I don't really approve of this idea though, because it will nerf the shotgun's ability to kill skulks. 1v1 a shotgun should win vs a skulk 80%+ of the time.
<b>Note: the most annoying problem i have currently, is when 1v1 a fade loses to a shotgun from 2 shotgun blasts. Or separately, when you just start to hear a dual minigun go off, you are dead instantly.</b>
As marine I have no problems solo'ing a fade with an LMG by strafing and dodging attacks and he's easily dead to one magazine and some pistol rounds. This is not the way it should be. A fade should totally dominate a solo marine. This is the way it should be because it forces marines to move in squads and attack as a team - isn't that what NS is supposed to be, a team play based game?
There was nothing wrong with the NS1 fade. The only thing wrong with it was the people who whined about the fade because they were too lowskill. The NS2 fade needs to be the same as NS1 fade. It's a completely useless class forcing anyone with sense to just save for the most skill-less lifeform in NS2 - the Onos. Onos actually took skill in NS1.
Part of the problem with Alien balance is that the Onos is too good that any newb can dominate with it, while the fade is so bad that only the best players can even kill bad players with it. This means that there are just more Onos because everyone saves for one. By the time everyone gets 75 res the game is over.
The developers themselves wrote sometimes in there own patchnotes something like "...similiar to NS1" . "ability works now like in NS1"
You want to know the truth? The Aliencomm and some buildings are the biggest change where I can say "thats realy new". Same to the Flamethrower,drifter,macs. Nearly ANYTHING of NS2 are just balance-changes. Uhhhh a commstation needs ressources now(was energy before).TOTALY new feature to the game. They have changed celerity speed. TOTALY new. Siege waepons are MOVEABLE NOW. Extremly new. They drop 1/3 of all alien-abillitys. wow cool. You cant get 2 abilitys from the same hive . genius new feature that I never saw in any game.They changed...(endless list)
Man, wake up -_-<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
going by your logic, the fact that siege weapons are moveable is massively game breaking and needs an urgent fix to be like NS1 siege weapons.
ns2 might well be based on ns1, but sooooo many factors are different - the engine, physics, movement, dps etc. all of these factors dramatically change the balance dynamic and therefore just 'copy pasting' stuff from ns1 is harmful from a balance perspective.
for example there is no HMG, so you effectively want to introduce a foreign body into a delicate environment. the previous analogy works as a vulgar euphemism and also in the sense of biosecurity; taking animals/plants through customs to places like australia - you can get arrested for that.
i cried the same nostalgic tears when ut2003 came out, totally different; and i believed HORRIBLE compared to ut classic. then ut3 came out which took a step back towards the 'feel' of ut classic, that game was a massive failure. sometimes you have to make an effort to keep up with the times.
imo humans should have 20000 hp, because my character in guildwars 2 has 20000 hp!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS2 is a remake of NS1, not a sequel. All the alien races with their roles are still there, even the damage values are similar. Thing is that because UWE tried to do something different with the lerk by giving him spikes which are as deadly to a marine as a rifle to a skulk and he has more close quarters potential because he needs it to gas. The fade can do the same thing as a lerk but he is big and bulky and has to take some damage as his attack isn't very strong so he can't expect to 1v1 shotguns and it takes less than an upgraded rifle magazine to kill him so he can't fool around with rifle marines either. So when you are a fade you are basically a lerk with celerity, no spikes, gas, or umbra, can take a bit more damage but it doesn't matter because you're 10 times larger, and you cost 20 more resources. The best that can happen is that fades get more armour but it still won't solve the problem of them being a lifeform that plays similar to the lerk.