<!--quoteo(post=2033068:date=Nov 23 2012, 08:31 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Nov 23 2012, 08:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033068"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 is a remake of NS1, not a sequel.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait, what? No it isn't, It's not a remake at all. Alien commander, different maps, different balance, damn near every alien plays somewhat differently than the first, it's the same formula but it's not a remake anymore than Battlefield 3 is a remake of Battlefield 2.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=2033068:date=Nov 23 2012, 11:31 AM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Nov 23 2012, 11:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033068"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 is a remake of NS1, not a sequel. All the alien races with their roles are still there, even the damage values are similar.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=2032914:date=Nov 23 2012, 07:44 AM:name=Mr.Greedy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr.Greedy @ Nov 23 2012, 07:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032914"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The whole gamedesign is primary based on NS1. To think that NS2 is a totaly different game is just s***** like hell.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What i think when i read posts like those ^ :
<!--quoteo(post=2032782:date=Nov 23 2012, 02:01 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Nov 23 2012, 02:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032782"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If we go back to NS1, a big deal of why fade worked so nice was that it sat in a sweet spot where it had just enough HP to have reliable engagements rather than having to rely almost completely on not getting hit. A lot of the time you could actually engage on your own terms rather than waiting for an opening.
<u>Now with the new pres system</u> the fade can't really sit in that position anymore. It's too small of an investment for the team to be as good as in NS1. Meanwhile it still remains a sizeable investment for a single player, which leaves the lifeform in a somewhat odd position.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2032832:date=Nov 23 2012, 07:21 AM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 23 2012, 07:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032832"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you're looking at it from the wrong perspective... "ohhh the marine just gets healed again". has it occurred to you that maybe you're trying to kill a marine who's smarter than you? because if you keep going back for more shotgun and being forced to back out when he has an armory - sounds like kinda dumb fade play.
please note that good players use the fade all the time - so unless you think you're better than those players; i think you need to stop blaming the fade and start blaming yourself.
you seem to have created a smoke screen with your theorycrafting to explain your terrible fade performance. yeah a marine can theoretically kill a fade with a single AR clip, but when does that ever happen? if you're forgetting to calculate human error then you're effectively saying that dodging/movement is absolutely useless which is pure bs. dodging is as important as aiming, even for marines who have almost no dodging ability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If Marines are pushing hard, Aliens have two options - pressure else where on the map or take down the Marine forward post. And pretty much any place that can be pressured is going to have an Armory.
Fade is all but extinct in competitive play until after straight Onos, but please, tell me more about how "good players use fade all the time". You don't know anything and you don't even know you don't know anything. It's not theorycrafting when there are Marines who can actually shots on a Fade... which is why competitive teams opt for straight Onos instead. No amount of dodging changes the fact that there's a minimum amount of time that Fades need to spend getting shot at when they go in, land a hit or two, and get out.
I played NS competitively for years. I have zero problems carrying pubs as Fade without dying in NS2. Pretty much every ex-competitive NS player can do it.
<!--quoteo(post=2032216:date=Nov 22 2012, 10:23 AM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Nov 22 2012, 10:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032216"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Remove glancing blows from Fade? That's just a crutch for people who can't aim. For the millionth time, damage is not the Fade's problem, it's his health pool.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Give this gentleman a cigar, he already has the drink. (according to his avatar). The damage of the fade is fine, his ability to stay alive long enough to dish it out isn't. Okay, I might agree he needs a little more damage against structures, but that's debatable. Bump up fade armor to 100/200 and he's probably good. That means 2+ shotgun blasts without Cara, 3+ with it. That seems to be good. When a single marine can stand up to a single fade and there is no clear skill discrepancy that's a problem. Again, it's not how much damage he does, it's how much he can take.
Thank you to confirm my posting. The Pres and Tres system were present in NS1. All what happend is that both teams useing both systems now. Thats also just balancing.
I am understanding your point. But keep in mind that the LMG/Shotgun is still the LMG/Shotgun from NS1. Marines benefit from the ressystem-change the same way like aliens. Because the ressystems are equal now for both teams. In this case, its interesting to keep the fadecounter but decreasing the fade drasticly :>
<!--quoteo(post=2033159:date=Nov 23 2012, 06:16 PM:name=xxswatelitexx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xxswatelitexx @ Nov 23 2012, 06:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033159"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dunno if anyone has made this argument but.
Fade is like Single Mini Gun Exo - No one plays it. So it balances it out :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2033067:date=Nov 23 2012, 02:30 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 23 2012, 02:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033067"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->going by your logic, the fact that siege weapons are moveable is massively game breaking and needs an urgent fix to be like NS1 siege weapons.
ns2 might well be based on ns1, but sooooo many factors are different - the engine, physics, movement, dps etc. all of these factors dramatically change the balance dynamic and therefore just 'copy pasting' stuff from ns1 is harmful from a balance perspective.
for example there is no HMG, so you effectively want to introduce a foreign body into a delicate environment. the previous analogy works as a vulgar euphemism and also in the sense of biosecurity; taking animals/plants through customs to places like australia - you can get arrested for that.
i cried the same nostalgic tears when ut2003 came out, totally different; and i believed HORRIBLE compared to ut classic. then ut3 came out which took a step back towards the 'feel' of ut classic, that game was a massive failure. sometimes you have to make an effort to keep up with the times.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's not saying everything has to be exactly the same as in ns1.
He's only replying to your assertion that ns1 is a "totally irrelevant game". And now you're just putting words in his mouth.
Yes. Things are different between NS2 and NS1. But to say that NS1 is completely irrelevant is just ridiculous. You go on to imply that the game design of Guild Wars is just as relevant/irrelevant as Natural Selection is to its sequal, which is blatently incorrect.
If you're trying to make a point that NS2 is a different game to NS1 (it is), then perhaps don't make such outrageous statements that anyone with the slightest shred of common sense knows is false. It undermines your argument completely.
Honestly, EXOs are just a joke right now. Give me a 0 res skulk and I can kill an EXO with ease. I often kill them in pairs and dance away as I'm pitying the poor marines. Yet with a 0 res marine? Heh. No he won't solo that Onos. (how many clips would it take anyway? Anyone know for curiousity?)
There really needs to be some balance here. For the ultimate Marine weapon, it should be lethal to skulks just as an Onos is to a single marine. I suspect we'll see more EXO buffs in future. Despite the last armor buff they are still nowhere near where they need to be.
But hey, on the plus side the win imbalance for aliens has dropped from 60% to 59%, that's gotta be good amirite?
<!--quoteo(post=2039116:date=Dec 3 2012, 01:38 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 3 2012, 01:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039116"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly, EXOs are just a joke right now. Give me a 0 res skulk and I can kill an EXO with ease. I often kill them in pairs and dance away as I'm pitying the poor marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2039116:date=Dec 3 2012, 02:38 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 3 2012, 02:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039116"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly, EXOs are just a joke right now. Give me a 0 res skulk and I can kill an EXO with ease. I often kill them in pairs and dance away as I'm pitying the poor marines. Yet with a 0 res marine? Heh. No he won't solo that Onos. (how many clips would it take anyway? Anyone know for curiousity?)
There really needs to be some balance here. For the ultimate Marine weapon, it should be lethal to skulks just as an Onos is to a single marine. I suspect we'll see more EXO buffs in future. Despite the last armor buff they are still nowhere near where they need to be.
But hey, on the plus side the win imbalance for aliens has dropped from 60% to 59%, that's gotta be good amirite?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
.....................
How is that seriously a concern. You're killing players who literally cannot aim. An exo kills a skulk in about 0.2s of sustained fire. The fact that you're a PLAYTESTER and using the argument that you can solo two exosuits with a skulk as grounds for an exosuit buff makes my head shake.
<!--quoteo(post=2039116:date=Dec 2 2012, 11:38 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 2 2012, 11:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039116"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly, EXOs are just a joke right now. Give me a 0 res skulk and I can kill an EXO with ease. I often kill them in pairs and dance away as I'm pitying the poor marines. Yet with a 0 res marine? Heh. No he won't solo that Onos. (how many clips would it take anyway? Anyone know for curiousity?)
There really needs to be some balance here. For the ultimate Marine weapon, it should be lethal to skulks just as an Onos is to a single marine. I suspect we'll see more EXO buffs in future. Despite the last armor buff they are still nowhere near where they need to be.
But hey, on the plus side the win imbalance for aliens has dropped from 60% to 59%, that's gotta be good amirite?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2039120:date=Dec 3 2012, 08:50 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 3 2012, 08:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039120"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fact that you're a PLAYTESTER...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He didn't playtest NS2, only NS1.
And Fade isn't good at the moment because he doesn't have focus anymore, so no real surgical capabilities. And because armory repairs armor making his strikes not effective as marines just need to repair at an armory. <= This is probably also a reason that is causing marine turtling so effective, better go Onos/Gorge (and maybe Lerk) combo to take out turtle bases. Fade isn't effective in such situation either.
<!--quoteo(post=2032174:date=Nov 22 2012, 08:54 AM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 22 2012, 08:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032174"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->do you want a situation where 5 fades are auto-win against equal skill marines?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b> because that doesn't look like balance to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because 100 pres worth of marine is supposed to be equal to 500 pres worth of aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=2039116:date=Dec 3 2012, 12:38 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 3 2012, 12:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039116"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly, EXOs are just a joke right now. Give me a 0 res skulk and I can kill an EXO with ease. I often kill them in pairs and dance away as I'm pitying the poor marines. Yet with a 0 res marine? Heh. No he won't solo that Onos. (how many clips would it take anyway? Anyone know for curiousity?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't quite work like that. There are many considerations in the late game, especially with the game being asymmetric. Skulks don't get to fly around the map and kite you for 10 res a pop. Marines do.
Also, as others have mentioned, ILOLd at killing an exo with ease. I guess you can kill someone who is terrible at the game or started playing <1 week ago, but no - good exos don't go down to skulks.
Only reason exo loses against skulk is because its been balanced around vision obstruction. Given a clear vision scape, even a dummy should be able to kill a skulk with that ammount of firepower and armour.
As for fade, we all know fade needs a hp buff but will disagree on the ammount. I'd like to see UWE increase it in very small ammounts (25-50) and re-evaluate at every step. Still think quite a few fade players are not utilising nor understanding the full potential of shadowstep and blink mixing which is going to colour the judgement *myself included .
The hp/armor isn't that bad on the fade atm. I agree that it could use a small buff but the real problem is the life form explosions. We still have most of the fades popping out at the same time. If the fades play good, provide cover for each other and all that the hp is actually quite good. In order to buff the fade hp I feel lower life forms must be a bit more useful.
Overall, if there were no life form explosions I'd say buff the fade hp though.
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->Lerks are in a pretty good place currently. Once we get gorge tunnels in and fix the hitreg issues with gorge spit, that may help.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=2039187:date=Dec 3 2012, 07:48 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Dec 3 2012, 07:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039187"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Only reason exo loses against skulk is because its been balanced around vision obstruction. Given a clear vision scape, even a dummy should be able to kill a skulk with that ammount of firepower and armour.
As for fade, we all know fade needs a hp buff but will disagree on the ammount. I'd like to see UWE increase it in very small ammounts (25-50) and re-evaluate at every step. <b> Still think quite a few fade players are not utilising nor understanding the full potential of shadowstep and blink mixing which is going to colour the judgement *myself included .</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I rarely play fade... can you explain what you meant by that sentence?
<!--quoteo(post=2039243:date=Dec 4 2012, 02:34 AM:name=Gorgenapper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gorgenapper @ Dec 4 2012, 02:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039243"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I rarely play fade... can you explain what you meant by that sentence?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It means basically -
How you fully utilise fade movement in NS2 is quite different to NS1. NS2 is more about being unpredictable and avoiding damage altogether. You do this using shadowstep to mix your speed, visual appearance, and movement path up. You can really throw off marine sg shot timings.
Where you might run into problems with this model is fighting clumps of marines who just bruteforce or cover each other in deathballs. Also, what this allows is marines to increase their aim to a point at which they can actually confidently kill/push fades no matter how good the fade is (instead of having a hp buffer to bully like in NS1), which is why NS2 fade still might need a small ammount more hp.
Also agree with wiry regarding lifeform explosions.
I should clarify that I rarely play fade in NS2, but I was a good fade in NS1 with its blink mechanics (esp. after I got Focus). Guess I'll just have to play with fade in explore mode some more, and try getting used to it in NS2.
Although I do agree that the fade needs a little more armor or hp. 50 starting armor is the same as that of a lerk. Why not 75 starting armor and 125 carapace armor?
Putting aside any balance issues, honestly just thinking about playing Fade in NS2 sort of bums me out these days. And I was a huge Fade player in NS1. The reason is because the amount of downtime I have feels very tedious - every encounter with a pack of marines results in maybe one kill followed by my retreating all the way back to my hive to heal up and start from scratch. Playing offensively away from a healing base is just a chore, hardly even worth it. I want so badly to use Metabolize, I feel it like a phantom limb after every fight. That one ability made all the difference in the world in the Fade's quality of life.
Google Moderator suggestion: <a href="http://goo.gl/mod/HCqd" target="_blank">http://goo.gl/mod/HCqd</a> IMO Blink should be Hive 1, bring back Metabolize at Hive 2, and see where the balance is then.
Also I think when Fades are balanced properly, TRes Fades will probably have to be nerfed, and I'm totally fine with that.
<!--quoteo(post=2033001:date=Nov 23 2012, 05:54 PM:name=RabidWeasel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RabidWeasel @ Nov 23 2012, 05:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033001"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fades basically have to be worse than they were in NS1 because of the new res system, you would have 4+ fades coming out at basically the same time in every game. In NS1 you only had 1 fade emerge in the early midgame and it needed to be extremely hard to kill because it was the only thing keeping marines away from murdering all the skulks. Comparing the two games directly is fine but you need to bear in mind the major structural differences between them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or the resource system can be fixed and several problems can be solved in one. Voilla, the fade is balanced.
<!--quoteo(post=2033223:date=Nov 23 2012, 05:20 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Nov 23 2012, 05:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033223"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hence why I think dual exo should require 3 cc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Commanders can't drop dual exos, what are you talking about?
<!--quoteo(post=2039183:date=Dec 3 2012, 05:35 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Dec 3 2012, 05:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039183"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It doesn't quite work like that. There are many considerations in the late game, especially with the game being asymmetric. Skulks don't get to fly around the map and kite you for 10 res a pop. Marines do.
Also, as others have mentioned, ILOLd at killing an exo with ease. I guess you can kill someone who is terrible at the game or started playing <1 week ago, but no - good exos don't go down to skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point isn't whether he can or can not do it <b>consistently</b>. The point is that it is possible. You can't even come close to doing the same with a marine against a similarly abysmal onos. Given equal skill what he said translates to skulks doing way more relative damage to exos before dying than marines ever could hope to against an onos. Which by the way regenerates and can choose to withdraw from combat if things go pear shaped whereas it is always do or die for exos.
And while I agree that you can't just look at things in a vacuum, it is quite obvious at this point that marines are fighting a timer because they lack a proper response to the onos. Jet packers simply don't have the firepower and exos don't have the mobility or self sufficiency.
They aren't really overpowered. It really depends on what version of NS2 you play.
In combat mod, I can take on 1/2 fades with a JP Shotgun + catalyst (maybe EMP sometimes)
In regular, until you get JP, its hard to kill a fade with blink. Fade without blink is not as bad. Problem is no one seems to buy shotguns anymore so killing fades is a lot harder in regular mode. Everyone waits for "exo suit" and don't buy any weapons. The thing is LMG's just don't cut it for killing anything but skulks and the occasional lerk. If you just go LMG for the whole game, your going to be fodder most of the time, especially late game.
<!--quoteo(post=2031943:date=Nov 22 2012, 01:43 AM:name=addest3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (addest3 @ Nov 22 2012, 01:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031943"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>4 non glancing swipes</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> on a fully upgraded marine, dead. Take 3 shots from a shotgun to kill a carapace Fade.
Fade swipe faster than man Man not shoot at same speed Man team not matter because man with shotgun should = Fade
Comments? Flames?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fixed. Arguments work better when you're not outright wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=2044826:date=Dec 13 2012, 06:46 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 13 2012, 06:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044826"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fixed. Arguments work better when you're not outright wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> like <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"it takes [...] 2 [swipes] to head two to body."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> xxD
when you have good accuracy you kill fades easily. if the fade is accurate and evasive/agile you die. shock! I usually die to a fade 1on1. but I inflict massive damage for sure. one time I killed 2 fades vs just me... everything is possible.. even chasing an onos while being chased by fade, gorge, skulk and you manage to kill onos, fade, skulk and bailing out.
<!--quoteo(post=2044887:date=Dec 13 2012, 02:33 AM:name=Sehzade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sehzade @ Dec 13 2012, 02:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044887"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->like "one to head, two to body" xxD
when you have good accuracy you kill fades easily. if the fade is accurate and evasive/agile you die. shock! I usually die to a fade 1on1. but I inflict massive damage for sure. one time I killed 2 fades vs just me... everything is possible.. even chasing an onos while being chased by fade, gorge, skulk and you manage to kill onos, fade, skulk and bailing out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> it's almost as if individual player skill is a factor
<!--quoteo(post=2044888:date=Dec 13 2012, 05:39 AM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Dec 13 2012, 05:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044888"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it's almost as if individual player skill is a factor<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If only exosuits and onos followed that logic train. Too bad the end game is such ###### once those units start hitting the field.
<!--quoteo(post=2031950:date=Nov 22 2012, 05:53 PM:name=addest3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (addest3 @ Nov 22 2012, 05:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2031950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Currently, a tier 3 armor marine vs a late game fade it takes 3 swipes or 2 to head two to body.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I haven't read through the 8 pages but please tell me i'm not the only one who spotted this.
Comments
Wait, what? No it isn't, It's not a remake at all. Alien commander, different maps, different balance, damn near every alien plays somewhat differently than the first, it's the same formula but it's not a remake anymore than Battlefield 3 is a remake of Battlefield 2.
<!--quoteo(post=2032914:date=Nov 23 2012, 07:44 AM:name=Mr.Greedy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr.Greedy @ Nov 23 2012, 07:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032914"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The whole gamedesign is primary based on NS1. To think that NS2 is a totaly different game is just s***** like hell.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What i think when i read posts like those ^ :
<!--quoteo(post=2032782:date=Nov 23 2012, 02:01 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Nov 23 2012, 02:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032782"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If we go back to NS1, a big deal of why fade worked so nice was that it sat in a sweet spot where it had just enough HP to have reliable engagements rather than having to rely almost completely on not getting hit. A lot of the time you could actually engage on your own terms rather than waiting for an opening.
<u>Now with the new pres system</u> the fade can't really sit in that position anymore. It's too small of an investment for the team to be as good as in NS1. Meanwhile it still remains a sizeable investment for a single player, which leaves the lifeform in a somewhat odd position.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
please note that good players use the fade all the time - so unless you think you're better than those players; i think you need to stop blaming the fade and start blaming yourself.
you seem to have created a smoke screen with your theorycrafting to explain your terrible fade performance. yeah a marine can theoretically kill a fade with a single AR clip, but when does that ever happen? if you're forgetting to calculate human error then you're effectively saying that dodging/movement is absolutely useless which is pure bs. dodging is as important as aiming, even for marines who have almost no dodging ability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If Marines are pushing hard, Aliens have two options - pressure else where on the map or take down the Marine forward post. And pretty much any place that can be pressured is going to have an Armory.
Fade is all but extinct in competitive play until after straight Onos, but please, tell me more about how "good players use fade all the time". You don't know anything and you don't even know you don't know anything. It's not theorycrafting when there are Marines who can actually shots on a Fade... which is why competitive teams opt for straight Onos instead. No amount of dodging changes the fact that there's a minimum amount of time that Fades need to spend getting shot at when they go in, land a hit or two, and get out.
I played NS competitively for years. I have zero problems carrying pubs as Fade without dying in NS2. Pretty much every ex-competitive NS player can do it.
Give this gentleman a cigar, he already has the drink. (according to his avatar). The damage of the fade is fine, his ability to stay alive long enough to dish it out isn't. Okay, I might agree he needs a little more damage against structures, but that's debatable. Bump up fade armor to 100/200 and he's probably good. That means 2+ shotgun blasts without Cara, 3+ with it. That seems to be good. When a single marine can stand up to a single fade and there is no clear skill discrepancy that's a problem. Again, it's not how much damage he does, it's how much he can take.
Thank you to confirm my posting. The Pres and Tres system were present in NS1. All what happend is that both teams useing both systems now. Thats also just balancing.
I am understanding your point. But keep in mind that the LMG/Shotgun is still the LMG/Shotgun from NS1. Marines benefit from the ressystem-change the same way like aliens. Because the ressystems are equal now for both teams. In this case, its interesting to keep the fadecounter but decreasing the fade drasticly :>
Fade is like Single Mini Gun Exo - No one plays it. So it balances it out :P
Fade is like Single Mini Gun Exo - No one plays it. So it balances it out :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hence why I think dual exo should require 3 cc.
ns2 might well be based on ns1, but sooooo many factors are different - the engine, physics, movement, dps etc. all of these factors dramatically change the balance dynamic and therefore just 'copy pasting' stuff from ns1 is harmful from a balance perspective.
for example there is no HMG, so you effectively want to introduce a foreign body into a delicate environment. the previous analogy works as a vulgar euphemism and also in the sense of biosecurity; taking animals/plants through customs to places like australia - you can get arrested for that.
i cried the same nostalgic tears when ut2003 came out, totally different; and i believed HORRIBLE compared to ut classic. then ut3 came out which took a step back towards the 'feel' of ut classic, that game was a massive failure. sometimes you have to make an effort to keep up with the times.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's not saying everything has to be exactly the same as in ns1.
He's only replying to your assertion that ns1 is a "totally irrelevant game". And now you're just putting words in his mouth.
Yes. Things are different between NS2 and NS1. But to say that NS1 is completely irrelevant is just ridiculous. You go on to imply that the game design of Guild Wars is just as relevant/irrelevant as Natural Selection is to its sequal, which is blatently incorrect.
If you're trying to make a point that NS2 is a different game to NS1 (it is), then perhaps don't make such outrageous statements that anyone with the slightest shred of common sense knows is false. It undermines your argument completely.
There really needs to be some balance here. For the ultimate Marine weapon, it should be lethal to skulks just as an Onos is to a single marine. I suspect we'll see more EXO buffs in future. Despite the last armor buff they are still nowhere near where they need to be.
But hey, on the plus side the win imbalance for aliens has dropped from 60% to 59%, that's gotta be good amirite?
ooooooookay guy
There really needs to be some balance here. For the ultimate Marine weapon, it should be lethal to skulks just as an Onos is to a single marine. I suspect we'll see more EXO buffs in future. Despite the last armor buff they are still nowhere near where they need to be.
But hey, on the plus side the win imbalance for aliens has dropped from 60% to 59%, that's gotta be good amirite?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
.....................
How is that seriously a concern. You're killing players who literally cannot aim. An exo kills a skulk in about 0.2s of sustained fire. The fact that you're a PLAYTESTER and using the argument that you can solo two exosuits with a skulk as grounds for an exosuit buff makes my head shake.
There really needs to be some balance here. For the ultimate Marine weapon, it should be lethal to skulks just as an Onos is to a single marine. I suspect we'll see more EXO buffs in future. Despite the last armor buff they are still nowhere near where they need to be.
But hey, on the plus side the win imbalance for aliens has dropped from 60% to 59%, that's gotta be good amirite?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Manner please.
He didn't playtest NS2, only NS1.
And Fade isn't good at the moment because he doesn't have focus anymore, so no real surgical capabilities.
And because armory repairs armor making his strikes not effective as marines just need to repair at an armory. <= This is probably also a reason that is causing marine turtling so effective, better go Onos/Gorge (and maybe Lerk) combo to take out turtle bases. Fade isn't effective in such situation either.
Because 100 pres worth of marine is supposed to be equal to 500 pres worth of aliens.
It doesn't quite work like that. There are many considerations in the late game, especially with the game being asymmetric. Skulks don't get to fly around the map and kite you for 10 res a pop. Marines do.
Also, as others have mentioned, ILOLd at killing an exo with ease. I guess you can kill someone who is terrible at the game or started playing <1 week ago, but no - good exos don't go down to skulks.
As for fade, we all know fade needs a hp buff but will disagree on the ammount. I'd like to see UWE increase it in very small ammounts (25-50) and re-evaluate at every step. Still think quite a few fade players are not utilising nor understanding the full potential of shadowstep and blink mixing which is going to colour the judgement *myself included .
Overall, if there were no life form explosions I'd say buff the fade hp though.
As for fade, we all know fade needs a hp buff but will disagree on the ammount. I'd like to see UWE increase it in very small ammounts (25-50) and re-evaluate at every step. <b> Still think quite a few fade players are not utilising nor understanding the full potential of shadowstep and blink mixing which is going to colour the judgement *myself included .</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I rarely play fade... can you explain what you meant by that sentence?
It means basically -
How you fully utilise fade movement in NS2 is quite different to NS1. NS2 is more about being unpredictable and avoiding damage altogether. You do this using shadowstep to mix your speed, visual appearance, and movement path up. You can really throw off marine sg shot timings.
Where you might run into problems with this model is fighting clumps of marines who just bruteforce or cover each other in deathballs. Also, what this allows is marines to increase their aim to a point at which they can actually confidently kill/push fades no matter how good the fade is (instead of having a hp buffer to bully like in NS1), which is why NS2 fade still might need a small ammount more hp.
Also agree with wiry regarding lifeform explosions.
Although I do agree that the fade needs a little more armor or hp. 50 starting armor is the same as that of a lerk. Why not 75 starting armor and 125 carapace armor?
Google Moderator suggestion: <a href="http://goo.gl/mod/HCqd" target="_blank">http://goo.gl/mod/HCqd</a> IMO Blink should be Hive 1, bring back Metabolize at Hive 2, and see where the balance is then.
Also I think when Fades are balanced properly, TRes Fades will probably have to be nerfed, and I'm totally fine with that.
Or the resource system can be fixed and several problems can be solved in one. Voilla, the fade is balanced.
Commanders can't drop dual exos, what are you talking about?
<!--quoteo(post=2039183:date=Dec 3 2012, 05:35 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Dec 3 2012, 05:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039183"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It doesn't quite work like that. There are many considerations in the late game, especially with the game being asymmetric. Skulks don't get to fly around the map and kite you for 10 res a pop. Marines do.
Also, as others have mentioned, ILOLd at killing an exo with ease. I guess you can kill someone who is terrible at the game or started playing <1 week ago, but no - good exos don't go down to skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point isn't whether he can or can not do it <b>consistently</b>. The point is that it is possible. You can't even come close to doing the same with a marine against a similarly abysmal onos. Given equal skill what he said translates to skulks doing way more relative damage to exos before dying than marines ever could hope to against an onos. Which by the way regenerates and can choose to withdraw from combat if things go pear shaped whereas it is always do or die for exos.
And while I agree that you can't just look at things in a vacuum, it is quite obvious at this point that marines are fighting a timer because they lack a proper response to the onos. Jet packers simply don't have the firepower and exos don't have the mobility or self sufficiency.
In combat mod, I can take on 1/2 fades with a JP Shotgun + catalyst (maybe EMP sometimes)
In regular, until you get JP, its hard to kill a fade with blink. Fade without blink is not as bad. Problem is no one seems to buy shotguns anymore so killing fades is a lot harder in regular mode. Everyone waits for "exo suit" and don't buy any weapons. The thing is LMG's just don't cut it for killing anything but skulks and the occasional lerk. If you just go LMG for the whole game, your going to be fodder most of the time, especially late game.
Take 3 shots from a shotgun to kill a carapace Fade.
Fade swipe faster than man
Man not shoot at same speed
Man team not matter because man with shotgun should = Fade
Comments? Flames?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fixed. Arguments work better when you're not outright wrong.
like <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"it takes [...] 2 [swipes] to head two to body."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> xxD
when you have good accuracy you kill fades easily. if the fade is accurate and evasive/agile you die. shock!
I usually die to a fade 1on1. but I inflict massive damage for sure. one time I killed 2 fades vs just me...
everything is possible..
even chasing an onos while being chased by fade, gorge, skulk and you manage to kill onos, fade, skulk and bailing out.
when you have good accuracy you kill fades easily. if the fade is accurate and evasive/agile you die. shock!
I usually die to a fade 1on1. but I inflict massive damage for sure. one time I killed 2 fades vs just me...
everything is possible..
even chasing an onos while being chased by fade, gorge, skulk and you manage to kill onos, fade, skulk and bailing out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's almost as if individual player skill is a factor
If only exosuits and onos followed that logic train. Too bad the end game is such ###### once those units start hitting the field.
I haven't read through the 8 pages but please tell me i'm not the only one who spotted this.